Drop Rates again

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The next time you do a TF and complain about not getting any drops worthwhile, ask yourself, did the team just want to rush through every mission and skip a lot of mobs that could have dropped something juicy. All those mobs left alone are also a chance for a drop you never took because the team wanted the merits instead.

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I think you are still missing the problem here. At the end of the day, the speed runner who blazes through the TF, gets the merits then uses the time saved to solo farm, ends up with significantly more loot than the group who clears out the entire TF. All in the same amount of time.

Now they should get more, because in most cases more foes are being defeated per player than in the 8 man team. But "how much more" is what I was getting at. All I'm saying is... the same way teams split XP but get a bonus for teaming, teams should split drops but get a similar bonus for increase drops. No it won't put them on par with the solo farmer clearing 8 person spawns. But it should close the gap somewhat.

I team mainly with the same people. Team size usually 3-5. I never get on a PuG, not because of the low drop rates but i get many trips to the hospital. With that said, i get hardly any drops either way.

I just made a MM with my cousin. We ran just us 2 and hit level 12. I got exactly 4 recipe drops and 15 pieces of salvage. We didn't do anything but story arcs. Does that not sound like a LOW drop rate? 4 recipes and 1 was an invention type (salvo) in 12 levels of play. Sucks if you ask me.

When i farm my 2 accounts, my 2nd account get more than triple the drops mine gets. I don't really understand the drop rates and what the DEVS consider "fair", but i disagree with their numbers and i'm not scared to say it.

there is no gap to close. i'll say it again, the drop rates for an 8 man team are the same for a solo person runing a non padded mission. each person has the same chance of dropping something the same way they do if they ran a mission solo. the padded mission solo runner has no place in this discussion. get over it.

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Only the devs can pop up the exact numbers but what percentage difference of drops/time do you think the difference makes?


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Team Size - XP multiplier
1 1
2 1.25
3 1.5
4 1.8
5 2
6 2.1
7 2.2
8 2.5

(Info from paragonwiki on the current XP scaling.)

I would assume these numbers were based on some datamining. Although XP and drops may not scale exactly the same as you change the mix of minion/LT/bosses being defeated, they're probably a good first approximation.

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And Lavitae, CoX still is NOT those "other games." If that playstyle appeals, then by all means, those "other games" already have the gameplay mechanics you're advocating. Just because someone else does it, doesn't make it a great idea.

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Who's advocating anything? Who said it was a great, or even good, idea?

I was pointing out that

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People in other games PVP for weeks to months, or go on dozens upon dozens of 20-50 man raids for a small chance to get (Correction: ONE PIECE of) the equivalent gear.

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while

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We get a chance every time we defeat almost any enemy in the end game.

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Purples are not hard to get. The last toon I took to 50, I got 4 purples while soloing or duoing the majority of the last 3 levels. Great drop rate? No. Good enough to get a few while playing the game normally? Yes. Faster than the other games? HELL yes.

Not everyone's supposed to have purples. Purples are the top end gear. If they just gave us all the best stuff, people would stop playing, because (general use) YOU can't be uber if EVERYONE is, and striving for uberness is what keeps a lot of people around.

Face it, the end goal of this game is to keep as many of us paying $15/month as they can. If they give us a "You Win" button, then there's nothing left to do, people quit, and the game dies.

Go get your uncommon and rare IOs, slot up, and get good enough to earn your purples, or earn the inf to buy them. That is what they were put there for. They're a time sink to keep us playing. Not something everyone needs and deserves for however much work they feel like devoting.

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there is no gap to close. i'll say it again, the drop rates for an 8 man team are the same for a solo person runing a non padded mission. each person has the same chance of dropping something the same way they do if they ran a mission solo.

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You saying something repeatedly does not make it true.

I get better drops solo, non-padded, than I do in teams, when playing characters that have decent kill rates. The reason is that teams of 8 do not kill 8 times as many foes in the same amount of time as my solo character does, nor are all the drops equally distributed (they are, in fact, apparently randomly assigned to team members). Those two things are what would have to happen, for drops in teams to be completely equivalent to solo drops. The team would have to kill 8x as fast as the solo player, and the drops would have to be equally distributed to all members of the team.

The recipe (or salvage) drop rate for any individual enemy is the same whether you're solo or teamed, I'll certainly grant you that. But the probability of any individual obtaining a recipe (or salvage) drop from that enemy is 1/n, where n=number of people on the team.

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the padded mission solo runner has no place in this discussion. get over it.

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I completely agree. They are a fringe case that doesn't enter into any of my arguments for why I prefer to solo rather than team when I'm trying to get drops. My reasons are all outlined above.

The problem, of course, is that the solo-padders might be the people the devs balanced the drop system around. What would happen to padded mission runners if a multiplier were applied to drops the same way it is to xp? If you set a map for 8, then run it solo, and everything is set to give 2.5x drop probability, has the solo padded runner just gone from getting 8x the rewards as a typical soloist, to 20x the rewards?

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The problem, of course, is that the solo-padders might be the people the devs balanced the drop system around. What would happen to padded mission runners if a multiplier were applied to drops the same way it is to xp? If you set a map for 8, then run it solo, and everything is set to give 2.5x drop probability, has the solo padded runner just gone from getting 8x the rewards as a typical soloist, to 20x the rewards?

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That doesn't happen for the XP multiplier, so it should be easy enough to avoid in the implementation of a drop multiplier.

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there is no gap to close. i'll say it again, the drop rates for an 8 man team are the same for a solo person runing a non padded mission. each person has the same chance of dropping something the same way they do if they ran a mission solo. the padded mission solo runner has no place in this discussion. get over it.

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What about the people who choose to not pad missions but go after naturally large spawns that are provided to them throughout the game. You know... Perez Park, Boomtown, the RWZ, the Shadow Shard, the walls in Cimeroa, Terra Volta, Eden, Dark Astoria etc etc... just about any/every hazard zone has them.

Listening could really help here. Yes there *is* supposed to be a gap, 1 person taking them on is doing so at much more risk than 8 people and because of that the reward *should* be greater. I think all people are asking for is... much like an XP bonus is given for teaming after it is divided up, there should be a bonus for drops as well.

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there is no gap to close. i'll say it again, the drop rates for an 8 man team are the same for a solo person runing a non padded mission. each person has the same chance of dropping something the same way they do if they ran a mission solo. the padded mission solo runner has no place in this discussion. get over it.

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Say it all you like, you're not correct. The drop rate for the team AS A WHOLE is the same per mob, but per person, it's (normal drop rate) /(team size). The only possible way that the per-person drop rate would be the same is if spawn size scaled up linearly with the number of people (8-person team faces 8x the enemies) and that simply does not happen.

Also- yeah, any team member would have to actually be able to get a drop (be physically present, and not be fighting greys) in order to contribute to the bonus drop rate. If a solo farmer set a map for 8, and ran it himself, then he gets the same drop rate as he does now. If a team of 8 goes into a map, they would get, collectively, more drops than the solo farmer would, although still less per person. As it stands now, an 8-person team and a solo padded for 8 both get the same amount of drops. Adding a drop-scaling method would reward people who actually play in teams, without penalizing any other playstyle.

I'm not entirely surprised to see purples dominating the conversation, but I AM surprised that that seems to be as far as soem people can think. PUrples have several restrictions already: level 47+ mobs, only slottable by 50s, and an extremely low (1 in 600?) drop rate. (0.16 percent chance to drop per mob.) Even at 2.5x normal, the chance to drop rate would be 0.416 percent chance to drop per mob: still less than one half of one percent drop rate.

Where this would make a REAL difference, is in Pool A recipes (Crushing Impact? Thunderstrike?) and Salvage drops. The drop rates for these are already decently high, and increasing them could easily collapse some niches. The ultra-rare argument doesn't hiold up here, although they are listed as uncommons still. Would the extra supply be enough to help the anemic red-side market? Would supply overtake demand and collapse niches either side?

Let's have some fun. Pretend this suggestion doesn't apply to purples. Then make arguments against it. Seems like a lot of the opposition to is is JUST because purples would be included, even though the idea includes a lot more than that.

By the way: purples should still be included. Any argument against it that uses purples as a basis and can't hold up without invoking them, might need to be rethought.

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i think you are missing the point that whether you are on an 8 man team or running through missions solo the drop rate is the same per person.

if you wanna whine that there are no purples on the market for you to buy, then go run some regular missions instead of AE. or run dev's choice arc or hall of fame arc's in the AE. it is because people are running the AE missions and not regular missions that there has been less of the purples on the market.

the drop rates for them do not need to be changed. they are suppossed to be ULTRA RARE. you say that you are asking for mothing which is in fact a lie. you are asking for the drop rates to be increased which IS asking for something.

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For the love of ....

Did you read the thread?

I'm not asking for anything "in-game" I'm asking for people (like yourself, in your reply to me) to stop with the all aggro-criticism - every single bloody time that someone brings up the subject of drop rates!

That's all I was asking for - and your reply about me "whining" is a shiny example of the reply/posts that I hate to read - anywhere in the Cox Forums for that matter - but especially in this forum.

Where the term "player-hater" is often an understatement, the sheer level of animosity and general disdain toward new posters or anyone that "goes against the grain" that comes (primarily) from a select handful of "Holier than thou" Over-Zealots - and is truly detestable.

Again I really wasn't asking for anything!
And in an attempt to get back to what I DID say - it was that I don't want "maps set for 6-8" to be a metric for future game balance!

It seems you thought I was somehow attacking your reply to the OP:
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solo farmers get better drops because they set the maps for 6-8 people. that is why they get more drops. the drop rates do not need to change. especially for purples and PvP recipes.

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I was not.
Nor do I think there needs to be an increase in the drop rate for teams.

I solo 98% of the time (and I've never "padded a map") - the only real times I team are for a Zone Invasion (Rikti or Zombie), or possibly Badging during a Holiday Event.

Sometimes - very rarely, if the PuG team I join for something like the above - works well and the people seem tolerable or (maybe even) fun. I'll run a some missions with them... Assuming the other people on that PuG feel the same way = they like the feel of that PuG.

Let me try to explain highlighting a post by FashionSense:
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QR

It is evident that for an individual person, running solo missions is better for drops than running group missions, unless the group's kill rate is greater than the team size times your solo kill rate. Padded missions just cloud the issue, since they are equivalent to running solo missions at an artificially inflated speed (which is fine as far as I'm concerned, but beside the point).

That's exactly the kind of anti-social incentive that is usually avoided in MMOs in the interest of promoting player interaction, hence the scaling XP multiplier on team size to counteract the similar effect on XP gain. Why there is no similar multiplier on drops is a mystery to me.

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I tend to agree with the first part - that running missions solo is typically better for drops... or so it seems.

I don't like the idea that people can solo "padded maps" and get better drop rates - I'm not 100% certain whether that is even true.

I don't care about the "anti-social incentive..." bit (although I DO understand the argument), I DO NOT want drop rates for teams increased - making me feel like I'm somehow shorting myself by soloing.

(And 90% of the time - I don't give a darn about XP, I turn it off for long spans quite regularly - to finish out contacts/storylines, content & whatnot. I don't think flashbacking is the same (and some stuff just isn't flashback-able), I just don't like to out-level stuff - especially with toons that are well-slotted for a certain level range.

Although, I've recently started using my 'dual build' on a couple of more "main-ish" Toons/Alts to keep/leave a low-ish level build the way it is - and then use the second build for progressing through higher levels.
If they changed the way recipes drop based on your actual level - rather than the level range(s) you can select random rolls from via merits or tickets I might change my playstyle/outlook on some of this = I'm not holding my breath.

Back to the OP - about drop rates, I think the ridiculous lengths that some people have gone to, in order to farm for PvP recipes & Purples, & Pool C's from Bosses, etc. JUST MIGHT be a good reason for Devs to look at upping drop rates on some of these a little bit. Not alot - a little bit... IDK, maybe not?

(Possibly) to get more people back to playing the other parts of the game and spend less time "farming" often with alts that don't see any regular play - for recipes to use on their "main's".
(instead of crammed in the AE buildings or Arena Terminals

[u]Is this any more clear? I really do hope so.[u]
But, if you still choose to think I'm asking or 'whining' for more stuff for myself personally, Well... So be it. *shrug*

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanaville City of Heroes didn't fail, City of Heroes was killed. If a 747 dropped on your house, you'd say you were killed, not you failed to find a safer dwelling.

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I don't like the idea that people can solo "padded maps" and get better drop rates - I'm not 100% certain whether that is even true.


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They don't get better drop rates, they just kill more enemies faster and don't have to split the drops with anyone.

A padded map is effectively equivalent to killing larger mobs in a hazard zone. More enemies, no teammates.

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A padded map is effectively equivalent to killing larger mobs in a hazard zone. More enemies, no teammates.

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Yes.

The rate is the same. The farmer just eliminates all his competition.

There are also other factors to consider when teaming. On TFs, are merits shared? Are mission completion bonuses shared? How about badge credit....do each party member get 1/8 of an illusionist kill?

Since many party rewards aren't shared and divided, but given in full to every party member, the greater efficiency in acquiring those particular rewards could've factored into the overall drop rate difference between teaming and soloing, in addition to the party XP bonus. The devs probably balanced the overarching pros and cons between teaming and soloing, so that one isn't overwhelmingly more efficient than the other in all aspects of the game. Keep in mind, soloing is just as important as teaming in MMOs.

However, though...why is there an expectation that casual teaming should yield so-and-so amount of loot for players? Highly-sought after stuff should require more effort. Keep in mind, not even ALL purples are expensive. Do Soulbound Allegiance or Fortunata Hypnosis need an increase in drop rate? Rather than focus on supply, why haven't you considered the demand side of the equation? Too many people want the Hecatombs and the LOTG recharges without increasing their effort beyond casual play. If you're so concerned about getting items as efficiently as possible, then start soloing. Of course, you would have to sacrifice XP bonus, merits, and a ton of other things in the process that other soloers have to put up with.

It's going to be a neverending cycle. If you haven't noticed, PvE MMOs (CoX PvP doesn't count), have inherent hierarchies in the playerbase, similar to the real world. If the devs were to make more and more players be able to get all the good stuff, then they will need to introduce another "color" to replace purples at the top....fuchsia maybe?

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What about the people who choose to not pad missions but go after naturally large spawns that are provided to them throughout the game. You know... Perez Park, Boomtown, the RWZ, the Shadow Shard, the walls in Cimeroa, Terra Volta, Eden, Dark Astoria etc etc... just about any/every hazard zone has them.

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Nooooo, stay outta my RWZ and Shadow Shard.

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However, though...why is there an expectation that casual teaming should yield so-and-so amount of loot for players? Highly-sought after stuff should require more effort.
...
If you're so concerned about getting items as efficiently as possible, then start soloing.


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When I want drops, I DO solo. And I get drops. I have plenty of purpled out characters...although less so now that one purple can finance an entire mid-range IO build.

It's not about entitlement. I'm just saying this is an MMO, and MMOs are usually designed to encourage player interaction. Most of the game is set up to encourage teaming, so why is this the exception?

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However, though...why is there an expectation that casual teaming should yield so-and-so amount of loot for players? Highly-sought after stuff should require more effort.
...
If you're so concerned about getting items as efficiently as possible, then start soloing.


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When I want drops, I DO solo. And I get drops. I have plenty of purpled out characters...although less so now that one purple can finance an entire mid-range IO build.

It's not about entitlement. I'm just saying this is an MMO, and MMOs are usually designed to encourage player interaction. Most of the game is set up to encourage teaming, so why is this the exception?

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Because if you don't cater to solo players sometimes too you lose the interest of a sizeable fanbase who sometimes enjoys not having to risk looking for teammates of questionable quality if their friends arent online?

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It's not about entitlement. I'm just saying this is an MMO, and MMOs are usually designed to encourage player interaction. Most of the game is set up to encourage teaming, so why is this the exception?

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CoH has always been a notably solo-friendly game in a genre not noted for that trait.

Only the devs know why drop rates are set up the way they are, but the game's sizable population of soloists could have something to do with it.

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...., maps the mission

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Always wondered... what does this do? I'v heard others say they do it but never understood why? Just curious....



Thanks

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...., maps the mission

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Always wondered... what does this do? I'v heard others say they do it but never understood why? Just curious....



Thanks

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It sets the spawns to the current team size so the people you have filling can quit team while you farm a larger spawn.

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...., maps the mission

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Always wondered... what does this do? I'v heard others say they do it but never understood why? Just curious....



Thanks

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Mobs not in sight range dont spawn until you come near. therefore if someone runs through the whole map while theres 8 people on the team, the spawns will all spawn for 8. the other 7 can leave, and the one can solo 8 man spawns.

do purples drop for end mish completions?

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do purples drop for end mish completions?

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newp

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However, though...why is there an expectation that casual teaming should yield so-and-so amount of loot for players? Highly-sought after stuff should require more effort.
...
If you're so concerned about getting items as efficiently as possible, then start soloing.


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When I want drops, I DO solo. And I get drops. I have plenty of purpled out characters...although less so now that one purple can finance an entire mid-range IO build.

It's not about entitlement. I'm just saying this is an MMO, and MMOs are usually designed to encourage player interaction. Most of the game is set up to encourage teaming, so why is this the exception?

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Because if you don't cater to solo players sometimes too you lose the interest of a sizeable fanbase who sometimes enjoys not having to risk looking for teammates of questionable quality if their friends arent online?

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Still, changing team drop rates wouldn't affect soloists one bit, and it would increase the rewards for those that do team, whether it be PUG or group of close friends.

Kinda sad, the thread became yet another farm thread. I thought the market forum might be better than the rest of the forums at keeping things on track.

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However, though...why is there an expectation that casual teaming should yield so-and-so amount of loot for players? Highly-sought after stuff should require more effort.
...
If you're so concerned about getting items as efficiently as possible, then start soloing.


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When I want drops, I DO solo. And I get drops. I have plenty of purpled out characters...although less so now that one purple can finance an entire mid-range IO build.

It's not about entitlement. I'm just saying this is an MMO, and MMOs are usually designed to encourage player interaction. Most of the game is set up to encourage teaming, so why is this the exception?

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Because if you don't cater to solo players sometimes too you lose the interest of a sizeable fanbase who sometimes enjoys not having to risk looking for teammates of questionable quality if their friends arent online?

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Still, changing team drop rates wouldn't affect soloists one bit, and it would increase the rewards for those that do team, whether it be PUG or group of close friends.

Kinda sad, the thread became yet another farm thread. I thought the market forum might be better than the rest of the forums at keeping things on track.

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Generally, we marketeers rely on farmers to generate most of our supply for us. or the demand for our goods. .

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Still, changing team drop rates wouldn't affect soloists one bit, and it would increase the rewards for those that do team, whether it be PUG or group of close friends.

Kinda sad, the thread became yet another farm thread. I thought the market forum might be better than the rest of the forums at keeping things on track.

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Hrm.....if changing team drop rates won't affect soloists, then why would the drop rate of the soloist affect teams in the first place? The logic should go both ways.

Anyways, the point is teams are already more efficient in many aspects of the game. Would you rather the other way around...no XP bonus, but drop rate bonus for teams?

Just a thought...have you ever considered simply putting more effort and time into getting the items you want? Just making sure all the bases were covered.