Post deleted by Moderator 08
I would also like to note that he could not even come up with one response that had anything to do with the game. Too bad this kid doesn't even know how to play, or maybe then we could actually have some forum drama worth reading.
22 50's in Bio
@Siphonic
RIP PX, GMW, and the game that used to be fun.
Still playing for reasons unknown.
my view on this is that based on how they built the game in the very beginning, short of making a CoX 2.0, how PvP works will always be a problem, it will be interesting to see what decisions States will make over on CO that will impact PvP.
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This is really the whole point that some of us are trying to make. A Stalker only ever has to die when they allow it to happen. No other AT has that luxury. There can be 100 heroes at capped perc bouncing around a zone with just 1 Stalker, and that Stalker need never die unless he chooses to do something that allows that possibility. And no, I'm not talking about just hanging out in the hospital. I'm talking about actively moving throught the zone completely safe and unattackable. Will you get kills doing that? Maybe, maybe not. That wasn't the point. The point is that the Stalker is virtually immune to defeat so long as he chooses his battles wisely. Again, no other AT in the game can do that.
I know this whole discussion is upsetting to some people, and I'm sorry that pointing out the truth has been so painful to so many who thought they were good Stalkers. Making decisions that get you killed doesn't make you a bad player.
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All of the above is 100% true
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(making decisions that get you killed) happens. It just makes you a bad Stalker.
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This is the only piece I disagree with. If you know the decision you are making (e.g., attacking a large group) is likely to result in your death, you're not a bad player simply because you determine the risk of death justifies the potential for scoring a kill, and proceed with a course of action that ultimately results in your death.
1. Stalkers are EZMode pvp (or training wheels pvp, if you prefer)
2. The worst player can be given a stealth-capped stalker and pvp without dying for hours on end while scoring kills.
3. Good players tend to risk death to score a kill more often than bad players (because the bad player is less likely to score the kill)
4. Good players kill more enemies than bad players
5. Good players know they are likely to die before they enter a situation whereas bad players are more likely to be caught off guard and surprised they were defeated
IMO, unless you're RP'ing, a stalker with 20 kills and 10 deaths is likely a better player than a stalker with 6 kills and 0 deaths over the same time period in the same zone
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Hahaha thus is going in my sig.
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Was it rough adding that sig with your mouth full of bonker?
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Now read this part carefully, maybe get your mom to explain it to you because I think you need it:
-If a stalker is fighting more than ONE person by themselves they are taking an unnecessary RISK. Hence no stalker ever has to die unless they get careless.
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This is really the whole point that some of us are trying to make. A Stalker only ever has to die when they allow it to happen. No other AT has that luxury. There can be 100 heroes at capped perc bouncing around a zone with just 1 Stalker, and that Stalker need never die unless he chooses to do something that allows that possibility. And no, I'm not talking about just hanging out in the hospital. I'm talking about actively moving throught the zone completely safe and unattackable. Will you get kills doing that? Maybe, maybe not. That wasn't the point. The point is that the Stalker is virtually immune to defeat so long as he chooses his battles wisely. Again, no other AT in the game can do that.
I know this whole discussion is upsetting to some people, and I'm sorry that pointing out the truth has been so painful to so many who thought they were good Stalkers. Making decisions that get you killed doesn't make you a bad player. It happens. It just makes you a bad Stalker.
[/ QUOTE ]Ok as a stalker user from i9 to now, team ladders, to zone, DR free to well you know, i figure i have learned a bit. And from my experience their are actually people out their that will find ways to circumvent what you think you know and will get you sometimes. What pvp are you guys playing? People play this game just like you, and learn to do what you say they can't.
I can't speak for the little servers any longer because all my vills are on freedom. But in case you didn't know, with DR, squishie resist, hyber, phase, hoarfrost, team mates, stalker as nerfs, accolades, your not just going to walk up and two shot anyone past warburg. So this being said, instead of a 3 sec encounter wam bam thank you maam. You just might need more time, and in using this time, you allow the help to come, or a passer by to join the fold, or them to gather themselves and fight back.
Now here's the choices, 1)stay regardless and just make sure he dies before you, 2) run and wait for who knows how long to find someone alone again, 3) come to the forums and speak nonsense about someone not being cautious enough. And i'm seeing a lot of the latter.
What's the point of pvp'ng if theirs no chance of dieing?, that's not fun, most of the joy is beating the odds in encounters. But that aside, you people act like theirs no outside forces that help attackers these days. First and foremost, AS went from a 6x scaler down to a 2x scaler, that is a significant nerf, it has lost over 60% combat effectiveness, next squishies in rv are running at 40% resist to all or better. So your AS will get in, but your follow up with be extremely hampered. So lets do some rough math a blaster running at anywhere from 1300-1600 hp, your AS fully slotted and i'll even throw a proc firing off, with BU on is going to do what? 800? 900? ok we are looking good, he can only have 600-700 hp left. Umm what attack does your stalker have besides AS that's a consistent 700damage? I have both em/ and elec/ stalkers and i don't have any and both my stalkers has billions in io's invested. Sure a lucky TS can, but that's no guarantee and wait... what is the blaster doing while you are following him up? He's clicking hoarfrost getting his whole life back, turning and kiting away while firing off salvo at you awaiting his team to join in battle. Or he's clicking hyber, going to team chat coordinating your death.
Pvp is not black and white as alot of people make it, it's to many variables this makes it gray. And you make a point that a stalker is the only at that can chose battles and virtually is immune to defeat. What pvp are you in? are you still playing i12?
I defy you to get 3 of your buddies and kill el chido, he's no stalker, and while your at it kill most pb's that fight from high above out of visual range and just run off when you notice them, because their fly owns yours and your flight pack. Bottom line any AT built right can achieve, this stalker only status you seem to think exist. Did you know most villians that zone pvp don't even have perception? I sit sometimes, for hours and just check peoples builds from time to time just to see what others are thinking, or maybe something i may have missed that i think wouldn't work, but someone uses well. And i swear id say almost 60-70% of people i check don't even have one +per power in their build. So simply having invis makes you a stalker to them, my old elec brute has no perception, just couldn't fit it, tight builds and i used to always watch blasters disappear out of hyber like magic.
So bottom line, don't fault anyone's style, everyone don't have the patients to wait all day for kills, so it's no right or wrong. Some days i can rush a pack of heroes get kills and escape, than other times i die instantly risk versus reward.
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Ravens has hit it SPOT ON, and I agree with everything that he's said, 100%.
While Stalkers "may" have the luxury of trolling around a pvp zone without much worry of being [u]"ganked"[u] (because that's what happens when you're a "visible" villain in a zone, you're ganked by a death squad of like 8 heroes) you are also, in MOST cases, not going to get any kills without sticking your neck out in the line of fire to do it.
The days of "Omg what's a STALKER?" and standing around damn near AFK in a pvp zone as a Hero are GONE. People simply do NOT do that anymore, even newcomers learn within a couple swift deaths that standing still = Stalker bait. So there are very RARELY any freebee's for Stalkers anymore, and those that are out there, could be killed easily by any AT as they are total nubs.
As Ravens mentioned, thanks to the AS nerfs as well as DR and Global Resists, there is only ONE AT that a Stalker can even hope to 2-shot anymore, and that's a Controller...of course if that Controller is running good +HP Acco's and sets, as well as Earths Embrace from Stone Mastery (which most smart ones take) then 2-shotting them is [u]completely[u] out of the question too. Soooo, with that said, if you "want" to get a kill, you'll have to stick around and hope that your opponent is an idiot. Why an idiot? Because Stalker damage outside of AS and Hide+Crit is totally pathetic. If a Stalker cannot kill you within BU+AS+Placate+Heaviest Attack, they shouldn't be able to kill you at all, period, especially if your on anything meatier than a Controller, which almost everyone is.
Except for AS, most Stalkers have about "one" good solid heavy hitter (EM has two however combined they take over 6 seconds to pull off and tbh, TF isn't all that imho without a crit) so if you can survive those two attacks, you can survive a solo Stalker encounter. Furthermore, all of those attacks, including the solid follow-ups must be done in melee range, so unless we're all fighting in a cardboard box, you can easily escape that 7 ft... 
Also, when we look at the total time it takes for a Stalker to pull off this alpha, we'll use ElecMelee as an example since it's currently the "FOTM":
BU+AS+Placate+ThunderStrike **For best dmg, you [u]need[u] that placate crit**
So the total time it takes to pull off this chain = 8.97 seconds
....and remember, there is almost "no" follow-up to this chain, after it is expended, that's it, [u]it's done[u]. Throwing Dark Blast or a Shark is a Stalkers best option since after almost 10 seconds your target SHOULD be moving, and unless he gets a lucky crit off a random Shark trow, it still won't be enough....
The only way that Stalkers can get "fast" kills, is to work in groups of 2-3 or more. Then, they'll rush targets and attempt to do multiple AS's on them all at once, to give the target very little time to heal/recover, and if we're talking about a "team" setting scenario now, then all bets go out the window, because Heroes can and DO team as well. To further hamper this, a team of 2-3 Stalkers are still 100% reliant on closing all the way into MELEE range with an "interruptible" power in oder to do their spike, and as I've said before, this is not the old pvp when people didn't know how to counter Stalkers. Not anymore, people have counters and protections now, and they use them...all the time, to keep tactics like these from working.
Another problem that 2-3 Stalkers face when in pvp and trying to coordinate AS spikes is trying to just "get" to their target. Alot of times, the best way to coordinate these spikes is to rush an opponent who has been KnockDown or Mez'd by another AT. But..oh wait...this requires more players now too...even if they aren't on your team, their distractions = a Stalker's kills. So, in a sense, they are on the same team, even if not physically. And again, if we're talking about "team" scenarios, then all bets go out the window, as Heroes can create some of the best pvp "teams" around, bar none (at this time).
I know that people get pissed off when they're double or tripple AS'd every once in awhile, and yea, it's surprising and startles you and it sucks...but being from the other side of the fence too...and watching 2-3 Stalkers attempt to pull those AS's off...well, lets just say...90% of the time, they're failed attempts unless they have Brutes+Doms+Corrs providing distractions and Mez's. Trust me, they miss ALOT. Like I said, every once in awhile, they'll pull it off, but its rare with just 2-3 Stalkers trying to do it. Because basically, the 2 Stalkers still have to either wait for a distraction to setup their AS's, or catch someone between "hops" or "animations" which isn't easy for "two" people to do. One person gets there first and their AS goes off but due to lag or whatever the other guy doesn't get there in time and only 1 AS is fired, from which the Hero heals. Or they both get lucky and get at a "hop" point at the same time...but one misses because Build Up wasn't ready...
There are so many scenarios which can and do happen for Stalkers, it's NOT the killing fest that Heroes seem to think it is. I know Hero's are a bit jadded by Blaster's and their killing fests, but it's not that way for a Stalker.
Stalkers do great as "clean-up" players on a victim who is badly damaged already though, and I think that that is alot fo the kills that people see from Stalkers in pvp, and why they think they're so "damaging" and "untouchable." The one Stalker advantage is that, for the most part, they can pick-and-choose their battles, but that is the flavor of the AT in general. A Blaster who has fly+PFF can fly above a battle ground and wait for a villain to drop below 50% HP, then come out of PFF with BR+Aim+BU going and finish off the villain just as easily as a Stalker could, and from range with little retaliation, and he is almost guraunteed to get a kill. Sure, it's not as effective as a Stalker's ability to hide in plain sight, but it does work pretty darn well for the most part.
Ok, now I hope that we have cleared up some of the misconsceptions up some.
Here are some facts:
<ul type="square">[*]A Stalker cannot kill a player within their initial alpha. Unless they have popped like 5 reds and get REAL lucky on all proc's going off, it just won't happen on most AT's. A player with half a brain should be able to avoid this alpha, live, and retaliate against the Stalker. If the Stalker hides or phases, then it's an effective stalemate, no one loses...no one wins.
[*]A Stalker, while relatively "safe" in stealth, must risk safety to actually produce kills and provide a function, otherwise they are no more than an invisible ghost which cannot touch you. If the Stalker plays the "safe-game" all night, he'll get about 1 kill an hour, and only on nubs. A well built Tanker can do this as well without hide. They can only come out when their tier9 is up and base-run anytime their HP is dropping (El Chido comes to mind..), and they are pretty effectively immune to death...however, they will almost never get kills and provide every little function.
[*]A Stalker outside of hide is an easy kill with just a little coordination. Unless the Stalker is just "running away" (in which case he's doing nothing and producing nothing) he's as good as dead outside of Hide. Stalkers have very little HP for a melee AT and overall weaker defenses. I have been held by a Controller after un-hiding in RV, and killed by 2-3 Blasters before the mere 4 second hold even wore off...it was quite instant and there was zero time to heal or recover.
[*]A Stalker "solo" isn't all that much of a threat. He's about as threatening as ANY solo AT. I explained why above. In fact, if you are solo a solo Corruptor, Dominator, or MM are MUCH more of a threat to you than a solo Stalker.
[*]A Stalker needs "distractions" to get kills. Distractions come in the form of other villain players mostly, but also encompases their mez's, hero animation times, and damage. A Stalker can produce swift kills if those elements are in place, any damage dealing AT can create this same effect as well, it's called teaming.
[*]A Stalker needs to get into melee range to gain effective damage. Hamper their ability to close into melee with you easily, and you've effectively reduced your chances of being Stalker spiked greatly. [u]Reducing this chance is as easy as using this code on your keyboard:[u] wasd+spacebar 
No other AT in the game (besides an MM) is as effectively shut down by something that costs you nothing, as a Stalker is. For example a Corruptor cannot mitigate 80% of a Blaster's damage by simply "jumping around" while they fight. Just learning to move provides huge Stalker mitigation, and...it's free.[/list]
I hope that people can take this information and use it to their advantage in pvp against Stalkers. If people would be more open minded about them, they'd see that Stalkers are no more of a threat to them than any AT out there, and if a Stalker is actually "playing" his AT with a real function, he's just as at risk of being killed as most AT's. Granted, I do think that they are a tad more survivable than some AT's simply by virtue of their ability to choose a fight, but they are no immortals by any stretch.
The biggest fear that Stalkers have on people, is the "fear of the unknown" which is a natural and VERY human emotion. When you enter a pvp area, you cannot see the Stalkers which may be hunting you, so with every "leap" you wonder if it will be your last. This fear or not knowing when an attack may happen causes people to hate Stalkers and imagine that they are more powerful than they really are. But it's only a fear, when broken down logically, they aren't all that threatening.
Its like running around a big empty room in total darkness and there is ONE metal pipe sticking up somewhere on the floor in that room. You can't see it and you don't know if you're about to trip on it, but you know its there...and that worries you. In fact, the only thing on your mind will be that metal pipe and where it's at, and why someone would be so foolish to have some metal pipe in that room. Its mostly, psychological. Personally, I like that effect that Stalkers bring to the game, and I can't wait for Rogue to finally bring it against the villains too 
Fun stuff, dropping Caltrops on a Stalker because he hit MoG before AS.
Stalkers ALWAYS choose when to fight starts. Unless a VEAT is around to unhide them or they are semi-afk and someone finds them with the draw distance rendering glitch. No other AT has that ability.
Between placate, phase, self heals, insp and general fleeing if you die to a single opponent you did something wrong.
In the event you are facing multiple opponents you have to risk a lopsided encounter and you may die. But the stalker still was in 100% control of when the fight starts, or if they even fight at all.
It may not be fun to play riskless, or be setting any kill rate records, but that isn't the point. The point is they can do it and some people do.
I patient stalker can easily have n kills and zero deaths. Other AT's might be able to do that as well, but the stalker is the only one that did it with zero risk.
It's fun to jump into 4 heroes and try to kill 1-2 and survive, but that doesn't change the fact that the stalker chose to engage. The hero team NEVER chooses when to engage a decent stalker, never. The decision is always the stalker's.
That said there are a lot of bad stalkers in zone pvp, so plenty of opportunity to cruise around with hurricane destealthing stalkers, or dropping any of earths debuffs and unmasking them at which point they are usually weak players and fall over dead.
But a good stalker always chooses when the fight starts and will never die to s single opponent in zone pvp. They might not always get the kill, but they never lose. A good stalker is rarely if ever taken by surprise at the realization that their target was not alone. They may choose to engage regardless, but it is their choice. Always.
That doesn't make stalkers the bogeyman, or death incarnate, but it does make them very easy to play.
Nothing you stated is mutually exclusive from what I've said.
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That doesn't make stalkers the bogeyman, or death incarnate, but it does make them very easy to play.
Nothing you stated is mutually exclusive from what I've said.
[/ QUOTE ]Easy to play,very hard to master is more like it, and that's the difference. I can sit and argue about other AT's it's all on your learning curve and everyone's is different, so this is very subjective. Example el chido only fights when either unstop or DP is up he doesn't need both, but as long as one is up he'll come out. Bruce leroy only comes out when elude is up, i knew a few blasters who only came when their sg emps were on. My point is defensive advantages isn't enough to label a AT easy mode. Because like ppl mention time and time again it is alot of noob horrible stalkers in zones, so by your own logic if it were so easy they wouldn't get wrecked and look like well noobs.
Now i will grant, they are only at risk when they engage(most times) but that is where the skill level of the different players kick in. I see some that only attack when it's a gank like jackel, i see some that only KS for a living, then their others that will wreck you, call out coordinated targets and die once in a blue.
My first pvp toon was a scrapper to me easy mode far more so than any stalker. Then after i learned the mechanics i graduated to my first blaster(easy mode pew pew), after getting bored i went defender (still easy when learned) and lets not get into my 1st perma dom omg lol and when they first got pff oh btw speaking of pff, blasters could also chose when to fight when i13 dropped blasters and doms were gods. But even though elusivity has been nerfed pff+aid self still enables the ability to choose battles.
Since i have been playing this game ppl have been crying about stalkers, and yet ignoring all the other AT's that do various things. Most vills don't run perception, most heroes run some form of stealth, get the pattern? This would imply that most heroes in most encounters can in fact chose when to fight. I'll use myself as an example my zone stalker is a regen my ladder stalker is a wp, in zones i can't see squat, We get no QR so unless i go staminaless, you have to drop a travel power to take perception. I tried it that way and didn't prefer it over just being blind 60% of the time, especially since heroes run thermals in zones, i also tried the one travel power route, but found it to be hampering when chasing someone with multiple travel options.
Now lets look at this realistically, People are running fotm's on both sides, so using this we discover since veats were nerfed to hell no one actually runs them except for nostalgia. So that being said vills only have a few options for +per toons and sadly even some of those are not really good for pvp anymore.
Wp on brutes is lol, and only works good in fightclub, Stone(haha) dark(weee) the current fotm fire is blind as hell and getting +per hampers you worst than not having it. Sure you could seek FA but on a end heavy set like that, you won't fight long indeed.
Stalkers, they nerfed all the defense sets, so /nin and sr are just for [censored] and giggles. So the zone is mostly reg(blind) or wp.
So to wrap this up every AT has advantages and disadvantages, it is what it is and we all have to get over the fact stalkers can chose their battles, because those who can't as well as them have other tools to compensate bottom line.
Those who can't have other tools to compensate
The funny thing is, even though you seem like one of the whiners that got the changes made in the first place, you're probably still bad..------Macskull on Crop_of_shaolin
http://ravens-wins.mybrute.com
Noob stalkers get wrecked because they either don't know of the distance draw glitch and assume they are invincible when at full stealth and just stand around and/or they engage in overwhelming odds.
Neither of those are issues with the AT.
"Easy to play hard to master" sure I can agree with that. I think they used to be a lot harder to master before the acro changes and the new mez changes when AS'ing a decent target took a LOT of skill. AS'ing isn't as hard when anyone can give you at least a 2 second window of a stationary target.
I would agree it still takes solid coordination and awareness to work in tandem with other stalkers and/or other players.
That doesn't change that in zone you are usually talking about a solo stalker trying to lure out and pick off solo opponents. So most of the limiting factors of stalkers and the "mastery" don't really apply in that scenario.
Honestly though? I deleted my stalker, so if you guys are telling me it is somehow harder to play them now than it used to be I guess I can accept that. I'm skeptical, but I can accept your knowledge.
It's easier to get an AS off now than it was before I13, that much is not debatable (mez and KB changes ensure that there'll always be a small window when it's very easy to get off an AS). However, the damage scale nerf of AS, combined with base resistances, and diminishing returns, make it harder for most sets to score those "one-two" kills a la old-school EM Stalkers.
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
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It's easier to get an AS off now than it was before I13, that much is not debatable (mez and KB changes ensure that there'll always be a small window when it's very easy to get off an AS). However, the damage scale nerf of AS, combined with base resistances, and diminishing returns, make it harder for most sets to score those "one-two" kills a la old-school EM Stalkers.
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Yup, as I said, you'll need to be working as a "team" in order to score those fast kills as a Stalker. You'll want at least one other Stalker with you to double up on AS's and you'll probably want a really good Dominator as well, to create the Mez window. But if you have the dominator, you'll want a bit of support for him as well, so a couple Corruptors are necessary too...and a taunt spamming Brute can be invaluable....aaaand as you can see, we're slowly but surely going away from "omg...one [u]solo[u] Stalker is SEW OP...can't be rite...." to [u]teaming[u]...and as I've tried to explain to people earlier, "teaming" throws all these arguments out the window, since Heroe's can (and do) form the same things for survival and killing, and I'd bank on saying that they can even do it better than Villains can (currently).
Again, even if the Stalker isn't physically on someone's immediate team, he NEEDS other zone players distractions and help to defeat his target these days. So though not "physically" teamed, they are still teamed in the same cause. The day of the Stalker zipping around and getting off quick "2-Shot-Solo-Kills" on anything squishier than a Scrapper (and even them if they weren't fast enough) are long long gone.
The ability to stealth and, for the most part, choose when to start a fight is where the Stalker advantage starts...and stops. There is no advantage past that. It's a decent advantage in the survivability sense, but just about every AT has it's "advantages" so I don't see the problem with a Stalker having that one. It's their "flavor" afterall.
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The ability to stealth and, for the most part, choose when to start a fight is where the Stalker advantage starts...and stops. There is no advantage past that. It's a decent advantage in the survivability sense, but just about every AT has it's "advantages" so I don't see the problem with a Stalker having that one. It's their "flavor" afterall.
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I certainly never implied it was a problem that they have that advantage, just that they have it.
It is a decent advantage in the survivability sense for sure, because they can always engage when their defensive powers are ready. But imo it is also an advantage to always be attacking at your "best". A stalker never needs to engage until they have bu/reds/buffs w/e ready.
They also have the unique (other than NW's) advantage of being able to disengage whenever they choose. But I don't think that is a problem either.
But I'll just reiterate: I don't think that makes stalkers the bogeyman, or death incarnate, just easy to play.
but what if the stalker was named Boogeyman? >.>
He still wouldn't be the boogeyman.
Boogeyman
but honestly, who is?
He wouldn't even be Mr.Boogedy
Mr. Boogedy
Admittedly, I'm more afraid of the first one
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It's easier to get an AS off now than it was before I13, that much is not debatable (mez and KB changes ensure that there'll always be a small window when it's very easy to get off an AS). However, the damage scale nerf of AS, combined with base resistances, and diminishing returns, make it harder for most sets to score those "one-two" kills a la old-school EM Stalkers.
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Exactly. Post-I13, AS'ing has become one of the absolute easiest things in the game to do, as long as you're on a team with any mezzers. It was infinitely harder before, where everybody could move around completely unimpeded.
But the damage is pitiful compared to before. Before, you could AS+ET, and kill regen scrappers (with DP down) in a span of 2 seconds. Now you do that, and you take a blaster to 50% HP....in like 4 seconds.
Overall, I'd say it's harder to play a stalker, unless you're on a serious team where your ONLY role is to AS. Solo stalking is pretty damn hard now, compared to before.
^^This.
AS'ing = EZpancake mode
Follow up kills solo = Hope your Spines or Claws and are trowing sharks, otherwise your [censored].
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The people who didn't play PvP before still don't play and virtually all the good PvPers left since they totally destroyed PvP. Villains are monumentally overpowered. That was the whole basis for them getting "better" inherent powers. Stalkers are easy button. They always have been, but now they are even more so.
Totally sad to see the game come to this.
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LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! At this post.
I mean wow...lol! Villains? Overpowered in pvp!?! LOL! Nice one, I needed a good laugh, thanks. I didn't know I was going to be having "whine" so early this morning, man, I'm becoming an alcoholic 
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8 MMs FTW!
I gotta comment on the topic, as a player thats been running stalkers since I9, i gotta say solo stalking has simply gotten *Easier* but solo stalking and getting kills has gotten *harder*. Now in i13, i can log into my stalker, my last trip to RV, this thread in mind, i got roughly 11 kills in 15 min, without dieing. I then spent 15 MORE min in RV, simply going for the kill even if the risk was great, i ended up with 16 and 1 death. Now its arguable, am a better stalker cuz i lived longer or killed more?
Arguably this is on freedom, but i had to avoid the big brawls to maximize survivability. I as a stalker kept myself to around the train and caught several squishies leaving at a little over half health. Now arguably thats not my fault but the kills were most definitly *artificial* and technically not of my own doing, but as solo kills, stalkers hide is meant for it.
I must agree, with the new tools stalkers have, its infinitly easy to survive when no VEAT is around, it takes more then 3 to take me down almost everytime. Placate is awesome, but most don't use it to full effectiveness (You still hide if u placate the blaster and not your target emp), defenses are still good if you feel out who has trouble hitting you.
Wasn't there a time where solo, you had to toggle stealth and invis back and forth to get a kill? Kan it come back?
Before the stealth IO, you needed to have invis to be at stealth cap. You of course have to turn off invis to attack.
The stealth IO made playing a stalker in zone pvp go from being ridiculously easy (I was playing a stalker a fair amount at that time), to being just about the easiest thing imaginable. I was also playing a spines/regen scrap and a fire/ss tank at that time for reference. They were all very easy toons to never feel any threat on and still get kills, but the staker was an order of magnitude easier.
I suppose a stalker could be harder now, but harder relative to how they used to be, or harder relative to other AT's?
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I suppose a stalker could be harder now, but harder relative to how they used to be, or harder relative to other AT's?
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A Stalker can be easy to "survive" on if you don't want to ever get any kills. Yes.
A Stalker's "main" advantage is the ability to "choose" when to engage his target. Yes.
However, if a Stalker "does not" engage his target with full potential running (i.e. Build Up+Heals in the ready) then he will epicly phail at getting kills and most likely die himself. A Stalker is actually more squishy than a Blaster in pvp these days. True Story. Without all his toys in the ready, he will die if he's not careful. His "advantage" of choosing his battles, is almost necessary for his success. If he didn't have that advantage, the Stalker AT would be absolute, without a doubt, [u]utter garbage[u] in pvp. The worst AT to take there.
So yes, playing a Stalker is harder than it used to be, and even when relative to other AT's. A Stalker requires full on teamwork to actually get kills now, just like any AT.
Sure, that used to not be the case, but it is the case now, this is what we are trying to explain to you Frost. Sure, the Stalkers you played with in the past were great, but it's much different now. Now, you BU+AS+ET which takes all of a whopping 7.17 seconds to accomplish, only to remove about 70% of a Blaster's HP bar (if your lucky with procs), only to have him hit Hoarfrost and re-gain ALL of his HP back AND make himself even harder to kill with his increased HP, and then to have him immediately fire upon YOU with his absolutely devastating ranged attacks. Then you "attempt" to placate him, with your wonderfully broken placate, only to have it "not" work and he's still attacking you, and thanks to lovely "travel supression" as long as he keeps "pew pew pewing" away at you, it can be extremely hard to escape his wrath without Phase or Hibernate.
Another nifty problem with travel suppression and "escape" is that you have to "decide" if it's "safe" or "wise" to use your heal to save your HP bar...because using your heal will cause even MORE suppression and slow u down for your opponent to catch up to you even further. You can't "turn and fight" either. Why? Because as long as he keeps you out of Hide, your damage is pathetically laughable and barely tickles him. Meanwhile, closing into melee with the Blaster means that he can unleash some REAL melee attacks on you, and quite possibly polish you off in short order. To add to this problem, the second ANYONE see's a Stalker out of Hide, its like flies on [censored], and everyone is attempting to kill you before you flee, so you have more than just "one" Blaster attempting to flatline your HP bar. If you don't plan an effective means of escape, you're toast.
In the end, even if you escape, you've accomplished absolutely...nothing. Teaming, is vital, even if it's simply being "near" a group of other players who can cause a distraction for you. You still need their support to do your job.
Hopefully, this has brought to your attention the difficulties of playing a Stalker. Sure, it can be easy to simply not engage and survive people as well as "choose" when to attack, but that's really where it ends, as I stated before. Stalkers are definately decent PvP AT's, but no better than what else you can find out there.
Dark really hit it right on the money. Do Stalkers have unique benefits that can be seen as *training wheels* for new players? Aye.
Are they as easy to play as they appear or are being made out to be by some in this thread? Hell no.
In the EM stalker heyday, 2-3 hit solo kills were all the rage, but even then, no one walking into a pvp zone their first day on a stalker was gonna pull it off on anything but another n00b that stood there and let them do it. Granted, it didn't take long, comparitively speaking, to figure it out, but either does playing any other fotm AT/powerset.
Things are considerably harder now for a stalker, as has been pointed out. Sure you can choose when to engage, and if yer a lame duck like my *opponent* in the DUEL MEH!! thread and will never even try any fight you don't know for sure you can win, you will never ever die.
How boring that experience must be, and how sad your life must be if you are that sort of PvP'er?
Right now, there's plenty *easier* AT's to play than a stalker. A PB in SC atm, for instance. More buttons to mash, sure. Timing to work out, sure. But difficult? No. Is flying at the top of the zone and only swooping down to kill a target any different than bouncing around in hide? I think not. An hour in SC at peak hours on Freedom netted me countless kills, zero deaths on an SO'd lvl 50 PB I'd had shelved for about a year and a half now. It's now back on the shelf. Way too easy and boring for me.
Is bouncing around on a Sonic Blaster pew-pew-pewing any target into a free trip to the rez porter in 3 hits somehow difficult?
In the face of overwhelming odds, the stalker can wait it out, so can that PB, so can that sonic blaster, or any other AT.
Some would insist only the stalker can bounce around the zone and avoid the big mobs. Here's a secret: so can any other AT. If they're parked in front of your base, psst, don't go out that way.
I have multiples of every AT sitting at 50, except veats and epics, which I only have one of each. ALL of them see time in pvp zones. Are my stalkers the easiest toon to play in zone since i13/14/15? Not by a very long shot.
Every toon has it's advantages. Gratz to you on figuring out the Stalker's advantages. Welcome to where everyone else was 2 years ago.
Glossing over their weaknesses and ignoring all the advantages that other AT's have over them means you are purposefully being obtuse, or are simply clueless.
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So yes, playing a Stalker is harder than it used to be, and even when relative to other AT's. A Stalker requires full on teamwork to actually get kills now, just like any AT.
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This sounds like you are actually saying stalkers are harder than other AT's, is that accurate?
I just might have to roll one up and see this for myself. I'm skeptical they used to be playable by rolling your face around on the keyboard and you'd still walk out successful. If they are that much harder now I would imagine you'd see almost no stalkers and the forums would be full of the nerf outrage (beyond just normal i13 rage).
I mean stalkers have always died almost instantly when caught off guard and they've never gotten kills when not optimally attacking.
I dunno, couple dam/mez hami's in TF means you'll easily be setting up your own placate+AS as squshies generally don't have much in the way of stun duration reduction.
Sure AS was reduced, but it is still 140 resistible damage + 250 unresistible damage.
vs 40% res
Bu>TF>placate>AS = 1432 damage.
That stun isn't going to wear off until they are half way through the AS animation. That is a small window to choke down some greens.
Ime 1400 hp squishies aren't your avg squishy running around, but one of the fast ranged attacks will easily get you another 150 damage.
That's only a 20% IO and/or assault damage buff stalker. A single red says good night.
An elec stalker doesn't get the guaranteed stun (50%), but if/when it his they could do anywhere from 1498 to 1668 depending on how the TS crit goes.
edit: doh how hard is +dam hit by DR, I forgot that.
I know not everyone plays EM or Elec, but lets pretend they do. The numbers just aren't agreeing with the claims that they can't get solo kills anymore. But I've heard people say bu>AS>placate>TF, which leaves a massive window for them to counter/survive your onslaught.
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Now read this part carefully, maybe get your mom to explain it to you because I think you need it:
-If a stalker is fighting more than ONE person by themselves they are taking an unnecessary RISK. Hence no stalker ever has to die unless they get careless.
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This is really the whole point that some of us are trying to make. A Stalker only ever has to die when they allow it to happen. No other AT has that luxury. There can be 100 heroes at capped perc bouncing around a zone with just 1 Stalker, and that Stalker need never die unless he chooses to do something that allows that possibility. And no, I'm not talking about just hanging out in the hospital. I'm talking about actively moving throught the zone completely safe and unattackable. Will you get kills doing that? Maybe, maybe not. That wasn't the point. The point is that the Stalker is virtually immune to defeat so long as he chooses his battles wisely. Again, no other AT in the game can do that.
I know this whole discussion is upsetting to some people, and I'm sorry that pointing out the truth has been so painful to so many who thought they were good Stalkers. Making decisions that get you killed doesn't make you a bad player. It happens. It just makes you a bad Stalker.
[/ QUOTE ]Ok as a stalker user from i9 to now, team ladders, to zone, DR free to well you know, i figure i have learned a bit. And from my experience their are actually people out their that will find ways to circumvent what you think you know and will get you sometimes. What pvp are you guys playing? People play this game just like you, and learn to do what you say they can't.
I can't speak for the little servers any longer because all my vills are on freedom. But in case you didn't know, with DR, squishie resist, hyber, phase, hoarfrost, team mates, stalker as nerfs, accolades, your not just going to walk up and two shot anyone past warburg. So this being said, instead of a 3 sec encounter wam bam thank you maam. You just might need more time, and in using this time, you allow the help to come, or a passer by to join the fold, or them to gather themselves and fight back.
Now here's the choices, 1)stay regardless and just make sure he dies before you, 2) run and wait for who knows how long to find someone alone again, 3) come to the forums and speak nonsense about someone not being cautious enough. And i'm seeing a lot of the latter.
What's the point of pvp'ng if theirs no chance of dieing?, that's not fun, most of the joy is beating the odds in encounters. But that aside, you people act like theirs no outside forces that help attackers these days. First and foremost, AS went from a 6x scaler down to a 2x scaler, that is a significant nerf, it has lost over 60% combat effectiveness, next squishies in rv are running at 40% resist to all or better. So your AS will get in, but your follow up with be extremely hampered. So lets do some rough math a blaster running at anywhere from 1300-1600 hp, your AS fully slotted and i'll even throw a proc firing off, with BU on is going to do what? 800? 900? ok we are looking good, he can only have 600-700 hp left. Umm what attack does your stalker have besides AS that's a consistent 700damage? I have both em/ and elec/ stalkers and i don't have any and both my stalkers has billions in io's invested. Sure a lucky TS can, but that's no guarantee and wait... what is the blaster doing while you are following him up? He's clicking hoarfrost getting his whole life back, turning and kiting away while firing off salvo at you awaiting his team to join in battle. Or he's clicking hyber, going to team chat coordinating your death.
Pvp is not black and white as alot of people make it, it's to many variables this makes it gray. And you make a point that a stalker is the only at that can chose battles and virtually is immune to defeat. What pvp are you in? are you still playing i12?
I defy you to get 3 of your buddies and kill el chido, he's no stalker, and while your at it kill most pb's that fight from high above out of visual range and just run off when you notice them, because their fly owns yours and your flight pack. Bottom line any AT built right can achieve, this stalker only status you seem to think exist. Did you know most villians that zone pvp don't even have perception? I sit sometimes, for hours and just check peoples builds from time to time just to see what others are thinking, or maybe something i may have missed that i think wouldn't work, but someone uses well. And i swear id say almost 60-70% of people i check don't even have one +per power in their build. So simply having invis makes you a stalker to them, my old elec brute has no perception, just couldn't fit it, tight builds and i used to always watch blasters disappear out of hyber like magic.
So bottom line, don't fault anyone's style, everyone don't have the patients to wait all day for kills, so it's no right or wrong. Some days i can rush a pack of heroes get kills and escape, than other times i die instantly risk versus reward.
The funny thing is, even though you seem like one of the whiners that got the changes made in the first place, you're probably still bad..------Macskull on Crop_of_shaolin
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