Time to take another look at Defenders
By
Airhammer,
Posted on: 2009-06-14 11:43 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
They wouldn't actually "need" to do that. There are precedents like non-targetted PBAoEs building domination and the like. Adding more complexity means that it's more likely to get back burnered or put off an issue or 2 if they decide to pick it up.
Additionally most of the defender primaries have a non-targettted buff that they could use to bring longer term buffs back up. Ice for instance has Snow Storm. The sets that don't have those type powers do seem to have toggles. Perhaps they could set it up so that toggles in the primary set provide the buff the entire time they are active to compensate for that but really I don't see it as needed.
Since Empathy all ready gets the most benefit from current Vigilence I don't really see a problem or a need to make it more complicated to start with. But Castle is the powers guy and that would be what beta testing would be for.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
QR
I think the real issue is that controllers need serious nerfage. It has been "City of Controllers" for at least 3 years now, maybe longer. They need containment scrapped and changed to a buff that respects normal +damage limits and their buff/debuff modifier changed to .60.
"Hi, my name is Ail. I make people sick."
A partial selection from my 50's on Freedom: Ail = Ice/Traps, Luck = Street Justice/Super Reflexes Stalker, Mist = Bane, Pixy = Trick Arrow/Archery, Pure = Gravity/Energy, Smoke = Fire/Fire Dominator
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Defenders have nothing to complain about until Corruptors are addressed. They have a ranged damage primary and are the lowest damage AT redside.
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They're also the Defender equivalents for redside. Keep in mind that Castle has told the players repeatedly that whether a power set is primary or secondary has no bearing on its power. All that the primary/secondary disparity serves to do is alter acquisition level.
Something else to keep in mind about Corruptors is that, thanks to Scourge, their higher damage cap, and use of Blaster primaries, they're actually capable of better damage than Dominators (which are being brought up to rough equivalence with the I15 Dominator buffs).
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You can eliminate every single thing in your list except for Scourge - which is often overkill. The higher cap is meaningless at the damage modifier they have.
1.05 (melee modifier) * 4 (Dominator cap) = 4.20
0.95 (ranged modifier) * 4 (Dominator cap) = 3.80
0.75 (ranged and melee modifier) * 5 (Corruptor cap) = 3.75
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This, and to further the disparity many dom powers have a higher damage scale than the corresponding corruptor power.
For instance, fireblast is a 4 sec attack for corrs, but an 8 sec attack for doms and as such has a much higher damage scale before even applying the higher modifier.
That said, I'll still take my fire/cold corr over any of my doms for team play as the corrs aoe damage is about 60x better and it has uber buff/debuff. The corr's st damage is also right up there with the dom w/ debuffs. I'd also take various corr builds over any dom builds for AV solo'ing as well. Of which my fire/cold is very capable of doing as well.
Meh even with the changes doms are still going to be the last, or second last, kid picked for dodgeball. Solo monsters though (minus AV's for most doms though heh).
IMO corrs and fenders could get a 0.05 to 0.1 modifier increase and it would appease most people without getting anywhere near blaster territory (excluding /kin corrs).
Off the top of my head all inhereints are linked to the primiary sets. Milady's suggestion is not geared toward the primary sets but toward secondary.
The real problem is defender's can't use thier primary on themselves except for a limited number of powers. If that is going to be the excuse to change negligence into an attack buff, it still defeats the primary purpose of defenders, which is to defend.
The inherient should be changed to provide the defender with a benefit related toward the primary sets not the secondary sets.
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While the title is obviously going to spark many one-liner replies, please hear me out.
Defenders currently have a secondary devoted completely to damaging yet it is my opinion that they fall behind both Tankers and Controllers in terms of damage. (Unless you compare the best damage of defenders, say Dark/Sonic with the worst of controllers, say Earth/Empathy)
Personally I view this as a gross imbalance of the game, Defenders should have much more power and ability in soloing. They are still heroes afterall! They should not be treated like the clerics or priests of the game by people who know no better - if anything that title is more fitting of controllers anyway.
It is just a big shame that Defenders start with a good ability to solo and it just goes down hill rapidly from there. By the time they hit level 20 and their real numbers, their abilities to solo have diminished by a large amount.
I realise Defender damage has been buffed a long time ago once before, and their attacks reduced in cost as well but I think it is time for another look. Reading the changes to Dominators, I would not be asking for a huge overhaul like that as I realise the amount of Dev time needed. However, it is also a good time to perhaps ask a similar look is given to Defenders as well?
Which leaves me thinking about a simple way of improving Defenders, apart from an across the board increase in damage, a simple way in which Defenders could be improved is through their inherent ability - an abiity which many will agree is among the worst of any archtype. Now, that alone is not a good reason for it to be changed however consider the following:
- The ability has zero use outside of a team, an area which defenders could actually use more help with.
- For many powersets, the ability is counter productive. As a forcefield defender who's job it is to *prevent* damage, ideally hardly anyone will get hurt and the ability wont be in effect.
- The ability largely depends on the abilities of your team mates and their sets. If you team with a good tank or controller, again it will have minimal use.
When you compare Viligance to something like Containment, an inherent which gives controllers very respectful damage early on if they slot accordingly (My Mind Controller breezed through the early levels) and becomes even more poweruful with double damage EPP AoE's.
Overall I think Defenders need a boost in damage because they are lacking and when they have a secondary devoted to damage, the benefits seem lost when Controllers, who have no damage powerset and are blessed with Controls, Buffs/Debuffs and pets and more damage.
My suggestion to the devs that a quick and simple way of making a change to Defenders would be to target their inherent, Viligance, which is currently underpeforming. If changed to something that would really boost Defenders and make them feel more Heroic, its ramificaitons would be across all powersets and be a universal buff of goodness.
Thanks for reading 
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Step 1: Make a rad/sonic defender
Step 2: shut your pie hole
Step 3: Profit
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How about adding a reverse mechanic? When your team is low on health you get an endurance discount. When your team is full you get a small damage boost. Have it scale from one to the other as your team heads into the red.
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I like this idea. Just make sure the Defender himself is counted in the Vigilance (unlike the current Vigilance where the Defender isn't counted).
Also, Defenders as a class are going to have a crisis soon: competing with Corruptors. Defenders need some work if they're going to stay competitive in Rogue.
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Super Reflexes: the Golden Fox of power sets!
WARNING: I bold names.
I had a widely acclaimed Idea a while back on the suggestions board about vigilance:
Essentially, it could be like Domination on a see-saw:
There will be a bar, that stays half-way full at all times, and gives no bonuses.
However, as the defender acts, the bar shifts back and forth:
The more a defender attacks, the more the bar goes to the left, increasing a POWERBOOST type effect that will greatly improve their Primary buff/debuff powers
On the flipside, if a defender does a good job defending the team, it is awarded with the bar swinging to the right, giving the defender a nice DAMAGE boost.
Of course, powers would need to be adjusted, and powers like Fulcrum shift shoudl give a measley boost to the right seeing as it is allready a damage boosting power, where as casting a shield would give a nice boost seeing as it's a one-time thing.
this way a defender can outshine Controlers, and do some nice damage, but not all at once
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I had a widely acclaimed Idea a while back on the suggestions board about vigilance:
Essentially, it could be like Domination on a see-saw:
There will be a bar, that stays half-way full at all times, and gives no bonuses.
However, as the defender acts, the bar shifts back and forth:
The more a defender attacks, the more the bar goes to the left, increasing a POWERBOOST type effect that will greatly improve their Primary buff/debuff powers
On the flipside, if a defender does a good job defending the team, it is awarded with the bar swinging to the right, giving the defender a nice DAMAGE boost.
Of course, powers would need to be adjusted, and powers like Fulcrum shift shoudl give a measley boost to the right seeing as it is allready a damage boosting power, where as casting a shield would give a nice boost seeing as it's a one-time thing.
this way a defender can outshine Controlers, and do some nice damage, but not all at once
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So if you do a good job balancing your responsbilities, you end up mediocre at everything?
Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.
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I had a widely acclaimed Idea a while back on the suggestions board about vigilance:
Essentially, it could be like Domination on a see-saw:
There will be a bar, that stays half-way full at all times, and gives no bonuses.
However, as the defender acts, the bar shifts back and forth:
The more a defender attacks, the more the bar goes to the left, increasing a POWERBOOST type effect that will greatly improve their Primary buff/debuff powers
On the flipside, if a defender does a good job defending the team, it is awarded with the bar swinging to the right, giving the defender a nice DAMAGE boost.
Of course, powers would need to be adjusted, and powers like Fulcrum shift shoudl give a measley boost to the right seeing as it is allready a damage boosting power, where as casting a shield would give a nice boost seeing as it's a one-time thing.
this way a defender can outshine Controlers, and do some nice damage, but not all at once
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If you could adapt that mechanic toward the primary powerset you might get a better chance of some change.
@kelenar
if you balance your abilities you will flucuate the bonus, overall getting a net buff, seeing as at the middle-ground where the bar is naturally, you have the same AT mods defs have now
For example, an ff/rad defender enters a mish, bubbles his team mates, and gains a great damage boost.
he then uses it to beat up some baddies, then by the time the boost is nearly gone, he has better bubbles available for his team when he re-applies, granting the team better protection, (as well as himself if he has that AoE bubble/PFF) and then renewing the Damage buff
The biggest problem in this idea is balance among the vastly different defender setups...
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@kelenar
if you balance your abilities you will flucuate the bonus, overall getting a net buff, seeing as at the middle-ground where the bar is naturally, you have the same AT mods defs have now
For example, an ff/rad defender enters a mish, bubbles his team mates, and gains a great damage boost.
he then uses it to beat up some baddies, then by the time the boost is nearly gone, he has better bubbles available for his team when he re-applies, granting the team better protection, (as well as himself if he has that AoE bubble/PFF) and then renewing the Damage buff
The biggest problem in this idea is balance among the vastly different defender setups...
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I suppose. It just seems like this would highly encourage some people to primarily focus on blasting or defending, then just switch to the other role for about 10 seconds occasionally when the bar's topped out. "If I do nothing but spam healing aura, my attacks are way good when I really need them! Obviously, rocking the aura is the way to go!"
Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.
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The underlying assumption of the thread is that Defenders have a problem that needs addressing.
I question that assumption.
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About as far as I'll go is making Vigilance work solo.
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The underlying assumption of the thread is that Defenders have a problem that needs addressing.
I believe that assumption is hilarious
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fix'd
[/ QUOTE ]No no no. The underlying assumption isn't that Defenders have a problem that needs addressing. The assumption is that Defenders are awesome, and therefore deserve to be buffed at every turn.
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
thats why it would be balanced so that powers like the heal auras give really bad boosts, due to their spamability.
where as recovery aura due to its epic recharge will give a decent boost
There are a couple issues with defenders that need to be fixed. But won't because of the nature of the game.
The first problem...
The share their primary with controllers. Controllers can use most defender secondaries with around 75% effectiveness. Paired with their control primaries they completely overshadow defenders in what they can offer to teams. This is a pretty damned heinous oversight as far as I'm concerned.
The other problem is soloability. Most defender sets allow soloing at a fairly decent clip. The exceptions of course are Empathy and Force-Field. The dev's answer to this charge is ...su...su...suck it. You knew going in that your powerset is team oriented. What they omit in statements like this is that the very AT is team focused. Yet some defenders solo well. Leaving 2 sets out of the equation is just wrong. The solution is simple of course. Build some method of increasing effective damage into those sets that isn't dependent on team mates. Won't happen. And it's completely unfair.
Third: Vigilance totally sucks.
Here's what I'd do.
Re-jigger the inherent and give Defenders an endurance buff. Defenders would simply regen endurance at a faster base rate. This would increase depending on how many team mates the defender has. That would address a couple issues. Defenders have to work harder to kill stuff. An endurance buff would be helpful. Not to mention the fact that defenders need more endurance to protect larger teams. They shouldn't have to get that endurance by allowing their team mates to get hurt. Give Defenders status resistance. (not protection) Resistance. Hard to be vigilant when you're drooling.
Finally something needs to be done about defender secondaries. The blasts. Some defenders forget they even have those because of the paltry damage. The fix of course is to increase the power of the seconary effects. And while we're at it boost the mez effects too. A mild damage boost shouldn't be out of the question either.
Let's be honest....When you're trying to choose between rolling a controller or a defender right now.... Is there any real reason to choose defender? That needs to be fixed.
^
dark/dark
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Off the top of my head all inhereints are linked to the primiary sets. Milady's suggestion is not geared toward the primary sets but toward secondary.
The real problem is defender's can't use thier primary on themselves except for a limited number of powers. If that is going to be the excuse to change negligence into an attack buff, it still defeats the primary purpose of defenders, which is to defend.
The inherient should be changed to provide the defender with a benefit related toward the primary sets not the secondary sets.
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The off the top of your head is incorrect.
Blaster defiance works on both the primary and secondary (defiance buffs)
Domination builds up by using both the primary and secondary and it's effects (on live) increase both the control duration and magnitude of the primary AND the damage ouput from the secondary.
Fury generation in Brutes is caused both by using the primary (attacking) and using the secondary (being attacked).
Controller containment applies to any damage that the controller does in the secondary as well as the primary. The main difference here is that very few controller secondaries (aside from storm) deal significant damage.
Current Vigilence endurance discounts for Defenders apply to both the primary and secondary powers.
Tanker gauntlet applies when the tanker makes an attack which is mainly from the secondary but also applies if the tank has a damage aura/power in the primary.
I'd go on but from the above you can see that it's not set in stone and that you are mis-remembering.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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Off the top of my head all inhereints are linked to the primiary sets. Milady's suggestion is not geared toward the primary sets but toward secondary.
The real problem is defender's can't use thier primary on themselves except for a limited number of powers. If that is going to be the excuse to change negligence into an attack buff, it still defeats the primary purpose of defenders, which is to defend.
The inherient should be changed to provide the defender with a benefit related toward the primary sets not the secondary sets.
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The off the top of your head is incorrect.
Blaster defiance works on both the primary and secondary (defiance buffs)
Domination builds up by using both the primary and secondary and it's effects (on live) increase both the control duration and magnitude of the primary AND the damage ouput from the secondary.
Fury generation in Brutes is caused both by using the primary (attacking) and using the secondary (being attacked).
Controller containment applies to any damage that the controller does in the secondary as well as the primary. The main difference here is that very few controller secondaries (aside from storm) deal significant damage.
Current Vigilence endurance discounts for Defenders apply to both the primary and secondary powers.
Tanker gauntlet applies when the tanker makes an attack which is mainly from the secondary but also applies if the tank has a damage aura/power in the primary.
I'd go on but from the above you can see that it's not set in stone and that you are mis-remembering.
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Ahh your clarification has identified the problem with suggestions focusing soley on the secondary which is the the basis of my point.
On another note, scrapper inherent is totally primary.
Controller Containment works only when you have applied a hold - based of the primary set.
I disagree about Gauntlet being primarily for its secondary set. (Yes there are some stuns in secondary set but majority based off primary)
Viligence/Negilgence is actually backward in that you get no benefit if you do your job, by applying shields, healing, debuffing.
vigilance should be altered to help when solo - by scaling the defender's damage, endurance discount and secondary effects.
Baseline effects of this vigilance would be : 10% endurance discount, 10% status effect buff, 50% damage buff. Each teammate would give 5.7% additional endurance discount and status effect buff as well as -5.7% damage buff.
With a full team a defender would have 50% endurance discount, 50% status effect buff, and 10% damage buff.
Heals, buffs and debuffs would all be 50% better on full teams, which would be a huge benefit to many powers that players don't typically slot for debuff effects. This would also allow defenders to standout more from controllers with similar powersets.
The 50% damage buff while solo would buff kill speed enough to make soloing not as tedious as it currently is on some defender combinations (IE those that can't buff their damage output with their primary). This would allow defenders to deal damage similar to controllers while solo.
I am an ebil markeeter and will steal your moneiz ...correction stole your moneiz. I support keeping the poor down because it is impossible to make moneiz in this game.
I have always thought the best fix for Vigilance would be to tie it to attacks, like with Gauntlet for Tankers, or even Domination. Tankers complained that they felt like Taunt-bots, having nothing to do in a team but absorb damage and throw out Taunts. So, they were given an inherent Taunt in their attacks, making them perform better, if not do more damage, when they attacked.
I think this would help the perception that Defenders should not blast, because their blasts would help them defend the team. If they got an endurance discount for staying active, then they could anticipate their allies getting into trouble, and have their discount ready to deal with it. They wouldn't have to react after the fact. And they could still get the effect for using their Primaries, for those that have a more active style and don't allow as much time for attacks.
In other words, instead of getting an Endurance discount for neglecting their jobs and letting their allies get hurt, they would get a discount for doing their jobs and using their powers.
Those Defenders without offense buffs, such as Force Field and Empathy, could use something to make them more like Dark or Trick Arrow, but I don't think an overall damage buff is the solution. Although a situational Inherent like Scourge might help, depending on the situation. (Honestly, I can't think of anything but what Scourge already does. I normally use my Defenders to pick off scragglers, and I see that as my role, even without Scourge)
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On another note, scrapper inherent is totally primary.
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i could swear the Scrapper inherent is totally damage, not powerset, related. Damage auras and attacks in the secondary get crits, and i could swear pool attacks do as well. Am i remembering it wrong?
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i make stuff...
Tanker defenses/shields/auras are their primary. Tanker attacks (which gauntlet relies on) are mainly in their secondary.
Scrappers which have attacks in their secondary can critical with the secondary powers.
Controllers with controls in their secondary (trick arrow and rad come to mind) can achieve containment using their secondary and also get containment from targets that are mezzed/immob'd/contained by other team mates that have controls (and not simply other controllers).
Even the Stalker inherent (Assassination) relies greatly on the secondary to produce the effects (Hide).
Inherent Powers
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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On another note, scrapper inherent is totally primary.
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i could swear the Scrapper inherent is totally damage, not powerset, related. Damage auras and attacks in the secondary get crits, and i could swear pool attacks do as well. Am i remembering it wrong?
[/ QUOTE ]Of the Scrapper secondary powers that deal damage (Death Shroud, Dark Regeneration, Soul Transfer, Blazing Aura, Consume, Burn, Rise of the Phoenix, and Shield Charge), none are capable of critical hits.
Pool power attacks can crit, though.
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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There are a couple issues with defenders that need to be fixed. But won't because of the nature of the game.
The first problem...
The share their primary with controllers. Controllers can use most defender secondaries with around 75% effectiveness. Paired with their control primaries they completely overshadow defenders in what they can offer to teams. This is a pretty damned heinous oversight as far as I'm concerned.
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I agree. Defenders should have their name changed so players stop expecting them to be the best AT at defending the team. They're not and never have been, but that would be okay if people stopped thinking they should be.
Yeah, the two-fold buff is a good idea.
But it does mean that in between fights (on a team that isnt steamrollering, say, due to a scaredy-tank) your scheme makes it of actual benefit to rock the aura. A team leader could quite reasonably ask you to do it at that point, to get the auras back up quicker. Even if its only a 5% or 10% recharge buff, well, people pay good influence to get that kind of buff in set bonuses.
On the plus side it means the Empath would directly benefit from pre-emptive Clear Mind-ing between spawns.
Ditto for SPeed Boost, ID, shields etc.
Potential solution: only targeting powers get the buff, ie PBAoE ones you can fire off under the Atlas statue dont.