Time to take another look at Defenders
By
Airhammer,
Posted on: 2009-06-14 11:43 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
I find myself direly amused by the idea that you get a powerboost-style buff that can only be sustained by attacking. Higher-tier attacks would sustain it longer.
It is a ridiculous idea, but it still amuses me.
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I find myself direly amused by the idea that you get a powerboost-style buff that can only be sustained by attacking. Higher-tier attacks would sustain it longer.
It is a ridiculous idea, but it still amuses me.
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Yeah it's a neat idea but buff/debuff effects are so over the top already that I don't think it's ever going to happen. That plus it would mean that long duration click buffs would have to be cast while your power build up effect was high to maximize their effect while short duration/instant clicks or toggles could just be used whenever. I really liked that defiance style +rech/-end cost idea posted earlier. It doesn't help all primaries the same (I'm looking at you forcefield) but at least it would also let you blast faster/easier. And the defender buffs reliably coming back faster would help differentiate them more from controller buffs.
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An inherent power that has as much effect on defenders as Containment has on controllers is likely to be just as broken as containment is for controllers. How does "easily-attainable doubling of all final buff and debuff numbers" sound?
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Sounds like a good justification for Castle to double the recharges and halve the durations of all our good powers. Remember, Containment came at a cost. 
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I find myself direly amused by the idea that you get a powerboost-style buff that can only be sustained by attacking. Higher-tier attacks would sustain it longer.
It is a ridiculous idea, but it still amuses me.
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Absurd! And yeah, it makes me chuckle too. Especially since my favorite defender is kin/sonic. I buff a bit, and blast a lot to keep the -res debuffs going. Trying to picture a SB that sends the recipient bouncing through the CoT caves like a giant, spandex-clad pinball...
Stone tank: "Please, never, ever, SB me again!"
119088 - Outcasts Overcharged. Heroic.
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An inherent power that has as much effect on defenders as Containment has on controllers is likely to be just as broken as containment is for controllers. How does "easily-attainable doubling of all final buff and debuff numbers" sound?
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Sounds like a good justification for Castle to double the recharges and halve the durations of all our good powers. Remember, Containment came at a cost.
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A cost that everyone paid but only Controllers got anything in return for. *shakes fist*
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Defenders currently have a secondary devoted completely to damaging yet it is my opinion that they fall behind both Tankers and Controllers in terms of damage.
Personally I view this as a gross imbalance of the game.
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And I 100% agree. Having a secondary only devoted to damage, while having a so low base dmg is a contradiction in itself. This leads to defenders being outshined by controllers in many situations they shouldnt.
There are very few cases (Rad/Sonic is one) where I see an advantage rolling a X/* defender over a */X controller. Yes this is a major inbalance to the Archetypes.
"Having a secondary only devoted to damage, while having a so low base dmg is a contradiction in itself."
Whether primary or secondary, every standard villain AT and every hero AT except controllers has at least one of their powersets dedicated to damage dealing. (In the case of the mastermind, the damage set also incorporates defense, so you could argue that that is not "only" devoted to damage if you wish.) Of those non-controller AT's, defenders and corruptors have the most options for making their enemies more susceptible to damage.
Vigilance may as well be a plain old endurance discount or +recovery.
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Vigilance may as well be a plain old endurance discount or +recovery.
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...Which would still make it far more useful than it currently is.
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I should point out that the aforementioned sets that everyone has a problem with, Empathy and Force Field, aren't exactly sunshine and rainbows to solo on a controller either. Earth and Illusion would bite the big one with their low damage (or in the latter, near inability to achieve constant containment), while some like Plant Control and Ice Control sit squarely in the middle with some form of constant containment.
It bears repeating that the uber and stronger sets, namely rad, sonic, dark, and probably cold, consistently obliterate solo content including, but not limited to, giant monsters. Now, in the high end, the difference between troller and defender damage becomes much more noticeable, but it's also at these times when teams most benefit from the harder to solo set (Force Field defense capping an entire team by themselves or near it? Yes please) that the only reason you'd solo is because you're not wanting to be in a team.
From 1-20, containment is okay/decent and hard to get consistently due to low recharge, running out of end, missing, or a combination of other things. Once containment really hits the flow and the aoe immobs are constantly up, or holds can be double or triple stacked is when controller damage shoots past defenders.
As for vigilance, all hero ATs were designed without inherents and most of the ones in place, save scrapper, are either horribly underwhelming or overpowered. Brutes get mini punchvoke for free and still have taunt auras and fury (and hold aggro more then well enough) and the corruptor's scourge is much more noticeable then a defender's vigilance.
On my TA/A, I've never felt like I've been negligent to my team's safety because I was still applying my debuffs and nuking like mad with vigilance kicking in as someone inevitably got hurt. Force Field fenders not getting boosts because the entire team isn't getting hurt? This very likely means your team is either sitting around doing nothing or steamrolling. I'll gladly blast at full end because everything is already dying, so no big deal either way.
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I should point out that the aforementioned sets that everyone has a problem with, Empathy and Force Field, aren't exactly sunshine and rainbows to solo on a controller either.
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Empathy is kind of crummy already for defenders, except in carefully engineered situations where its bundled buffs are used fully. I'd shudder to think what a nerfed controller version of Empathy would look like -- I'd rather see the numbers boosted for defenders and controllers left alone.
Controllers in their current form should not serve as a benchmark for anything.
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I should point out that the aforementioned sets that everyone has a problem with, Empathy and Force Field, aren't exactly sunshine and rainbows to solo on a controller either. Earth and Illusion would bite the big one with their low damage (or in the latter, near inability to achieve constant containment), while some like Plant Control and Ice Control sit squarely in the middle with some form of constant containment.
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My SOs Earth/Empathy Controller Solos just as fine if not better than my IOed Rad/Dark Defeder.
I think we can all agree on at least two points:
1) Defenders are more or less fine on teams. Any issues that appear for Defenders on teams tends to come from specific powerset problems more than anything. While Corruptors coming heroside with Going rogue may reveal new problems with the player-base's mentality, Defenders have similar issues with Controllers and still manage to be popular on teams. Teams will continue to do what they always have: Take whomever can offer the de/buffs they want, regardless of AT. Any change to Defenders shouldn't make Defenders perform drastically better on teams.
2) Vigilance is quite possibly the worst inherent in the game. The reasons have been stated repeatedly in this thread. Namely, it does not benefit all Defenders as evenly as other AT's Inherents benefit them, and it has less potential impact on solo play than even Gauntlet does. (Gauntlet at least allows Tankers the option of skipping Taunt and taking a different power. Vigilance does not offer such to Defenders as it does not function when solo.)
Furthermore, I think most will agree Defenders have a couple other issues.
A) Defender DPE is more or less the worst in the game, outside of the influence of certain Primaries. Thanks to Containment, even Controllers have DPE that is competitive or exceeds that of a Defender in absence of a de/buff set or when comparing using the same de/buff set. This is due to both having the second lowest AT damage modifier (and unlike the last place Controllers, no AT wide damage boost). Exacerbating this, many Defender secondaries seem to leave enemies with a sliver of life, requiring the expenditure of excessive endurance to finish the job.
B) Defenders tend to be the slowest soloists in the game. Obviously certain Primaries are vastly superior at this, but in those cases only certain Controller combinations wind up worse. This is primarily the result of A, but low damage and the existence of Primaries with low amounts of powers available solo compounds the problem on average.
Does this look like a good list of Defender problems to everyone? Does it sum up all the important issues regarding making any changes to Defenders?
Personally, I like Mildays_Knight's suggestion. It does exactly what I've felt for years a Defender Inherent should do. It makes the secondary work with the primary in much the way Gauntlet does for Tankers. I think that the Endurance discount should be slightly higher than the Recharge bonus, just to make sure the endurance burn isn't a wash.
While it wouldn't benefit some Primaries quite as well as others, it would benefit all secondaries evenly regardless of Primary. Unlike current Vigilance. Even Force Fields could make decent use of the recharge bonus, only Sonic Resonance looks to me as if it would gain next to nothing out of the Primaries.
As to a power boost effect instead, I just can't see that one flying. Even if Castle didn't hate Power Boost, the effect would either be so trivial as not to matter, or wind up overpowering. Defenders tend to be really close to the limits of what should be accomplished with buffs and debuffs.
One other way to deal with Defender issues outside of a Negligence change, would be a minor damage buff. From my limited studies, as low as a 1 to 3 percent increase in damage could remove a whole attack needed to defeat a minion or lieutenant. A savings of at least 4 endurance per foe. For perspective, I'm talking about changing the .65 modifier to .67 at most. Against anything tougher misses come into play, meaning only a ridiculously high damage boost would be noticeable in play, making them irrelevant for any investigation into the matter.
All secondaries would need to be looked at, but if enough of them have the sliver-of-life issue, a tiny change could make a big difference when solo. I've only looked at Archery so far, so it may not hold true across enough sets.
Even just counting the Defender's hit points toward Vigilance would be a tolerable step in the right direction. Though I'd much, much rather see Miladys_Knight's version in play.
<ul type="square">[*]The problems Defenders have are all about soloing. Even in a duo of two Defenders, they work decently.[*]Vigilance is mostly useless][/list]To me the solution seems obvious; just remove Vigilance and replace it with a good damage buff when solo.
Then defenders are debuffed for joining a team. That's a bad idea.
This is getting a little ahead of the game, but one potential problem I'm anticipating with defenders has to do with concepts, going rogue, and power proliferation.
Specifically, I'm finding myself sitting down with a ranged blast + buff/debuff concept, then asking myself: why should this character be a defender rather than a redeemed corruptor? I like "crits to finish off hurt enemies" on most of my characters -- it's a nice kind of extra that makes sense with any concept, even heroic ones. I like "end discounts when I suck" on hardly any of my characters -- my defender/corruptor characters just aren't nursy-wursy enough (if they were, they'd be controllers or masterminds). APP/PPP stuff will play a small role, marginally stronger buff/debuffs will play a tiny role, but yeah, direct concept competition between defender and corruptor is the thing I'm worried about for the defender AT.
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Then defenders are debuffed for joining a team. That's a bad idea.
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Then don't replace it - just make it work differently when solo, if that's possible.
Personally, I like Miladys_Knight's suggestion as well although I think his numbers might be a bit high - hard to say without testing it.
Globals: @Midnight Mystique/@Magik13
You know, I had a sudden thought.
I like Miladys_Knight's suggestion, a lot. It simply makes more sense than the current system. But there's a big issue with it.
Toggles.
A lot of the Buff/Debuff sets involve toggle powers. How would those work in a power-based buff? Per activation? Like a proc, activating once every 10 seconds? Or would they just be ignored in the entire process?
Darn it... it' such a good idea, but I'm suddenly rather certain its unworkable too...
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A toggle (but only from the primary or secondary) could be set to simply continually renew the vigilence buff it provides. All toggles continually refresh.
As an example A rad defender.
Radiation Infection activates every .5 seconds and has a duration of .75 seconds this debuff doesn't self stack.
The toggle could continually refresh a single vigilence buff and it would only count as one. Optionally a tweak that could be applied is that a toggle vigilence buff only provides 1/2 value but the maximum vigilence buff would still be 25%. Defender with multiple toggles would still have to use clicks for full benefit.
It's all just possibilities there are lots of potential options. None of it is set in stone. I throw it out there and let the devs run with it. They have a good idea of what balance they want to achieve and if they are being honest with themselves they have to admit that current vigilence isn't balanced at all and for the specific reasons I mentioned previously.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
Here is a simple thought that basically keeps the benefit defenders are getting roughly the same but applies it a bit more evenly - give defenders a base end reduction that scales up for every member on thier team, kinda like the HEAT benefits. Maybe something like a 10% global end reduction all the time so they get SOME solo benefit and then an addition bonus (2%-5% say) per team member, regardless of the health of the team.
This gives the defender some benefit when solo and encourages teaming without giving more benefits to any one type of defender. It also has the benefit of being similar to an existing system (the HEAT benefits that accrue based on teammate AT) so that there is likely to be existing code that could be adapted.
Globals: @Midnight Mystique/@Magik13
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I do not disagree that Vigilance is a comparatively weak inherent and should be reviewed for alternatives, though I do not find it a "gross imbalance" but rather a minor one. I do question several of the premises leading to the suggestion that defenders need a damage boost.
1st. That the secondary is devoted solely to damage.
Except for Archery, the debuff aspect from the secondary is very substantial and contributes to the performance of the set (which again, to a large degree is NOT "devoted solely to damage")
2nd. That controllers and tankers bring more damage to a team than a defender.
This is situationally based, depending on the powerset combinations being compared and should not be taken as sufficient justification for an AT-wide damage boost.
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Vigilence nee Negligence is an extremely weak inherent. It provides wildly differing levels of benefit.
Solo it provides none. On small teams especially of experienced players it provides little. On large teams it provides the level it should provide but generally only if there is a mix of experience and ATs on the team.
It provides maximum benefit to poor defender playstyles (read that as reactive h34l0rs) and minmal benefit to active playstyles.
It provides maximum benefits to defenders who focus on repairing damage and minimal benefit to defenders who operate by preventing damage to begin with.
It varies so much that it is nearly impossible to properly slot end reduction enhancers except for solo defenders who all ready know that their benefit from Vigilence will be "0"
I'll mention again what I have before.
The devs are happy with the DPA of defenders the chances of getting a damage boost are slim. (Especially when you consider the things that RO does publicly.) The main problem on defenders is the variable (and much too low IME) DPE.
What I have proposed in the past is a vigilence buff system rather than the current mechanic.
Any time a defender activates a power from their primary or secondary they get a vigilence buff that lasts 10 (perhaps 15 since many defender buffs take 2-3 seconds to cast) seconds that has the effect of reducing the defender's end costs by 5% AND reduces the recharge of their powers by 5%.
The defender can stack a maximum of 5 of these buffs at any one time capping the benefit from vigilence at a 25% reduction to end costs and recharge.
This accomplishes several things.
1) Vigilence provides exactly the same benefit to each and every Primary/Secondary combination.
2) Vigilence fuctions properly no matter what size team you are on and works solo.
3) Vigilence functions properly regardless of the experience of the team.
4) Defender DPA remains unchanged.
5) BUT Defender DPS is slightly increased by allowing the defender to cycle their hard hitting single target attacks a little more often.
6) AND defender DPE is increased and remains consistant across all defender power set combinations.
7) This style Vigilence would also provide higher reward for good, proactive defender play, rather than providing higher rewards for, poor, reactive play.
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/signed as intelligent and well thought out...
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
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While I'm wont to agree for the most part...,
- You must realize that a defender (more then any other AT) really shines in group play. In essence, a defender that's actually defending people is well...a defender. The powersets alone often scream 'team-player' (i.e. - empathy, force-field), but that is not entirely the case.
- After making a few defenders...some bad, some just plain blah yet others not knowing how I managed to get past 20th there are a few powerset combinations that really shine - SOLO. One particular set combination was Kinetics/Energy Blast. This combination, so far, has been fun...almost to the point of being helarious.
- With the recovery, regen, kb almost perpetual nonstop buildup...this powerset turns into a literal wrecking ball even after just one application of siphon power. Once you have siphon power stacked (or even better, fulcrum shift)...you won't have much by way of defense, but you won't have many enemies opposing you either - you just blasted them to kingdom come!
- Give a Kin/EB Defender a try...you might be pleased to have a defender deal out that much carnage!
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I could also suggest the classic Radiation/Radiation defender as a great wrecking machine. You only fear status attacks. Else than that, you can steamroll with Rad Infection/Enervating Field just like a blaster. Cosmic Burst is a great ST Mag 3 Stun DMG attack and you have a few great PBaoE and AOE attacks that can even further be enhanced with dmg procs and achille heel.
My Rad/Rad defender solos the 52 AE bosses that have baseball bats alot better than any blaster would.
I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
Voltaire