Time to take another look at Defenders

While the title is obviously going to spark many one-liner replies, please hear me out.

Defenders currently have a secondary devoted completely to damaging yet it is my opinion that they fall behind both Tankers and Controllers in terms of damage. (Unless you compare the best damage of defenders, say Dark/Sonic with the worst of controllers, say Earth/Empathy)

Personally I view this as a gross imbalance of the game, Defenders should have much more power and ability in soloing. They are still heroes afterall! They should not be treated like the clerics or priests of the game by people who know no better - if anything that title is more fitting of controllers anyway.

It is just a big shame that Defenders start with a good ability to solo and it just goes down hill rapidly from there. By the time they hit level 20 and their real numbers, their abilities to solo have diminished by a large amount.

I realise Defender damage has been buffed a long time ago once before, and their attacks reduced in cost as well but I think it is time for another look. Reading the changes to Dominators, I would not be asking for a huge overhaul like that as I realise the amount of Dev time needed. However, it is also a good time to perhaps ask a similar look is given to Defenders as well?

Which leaves me thinking about a simple way of improving Defenders, apart from an across the board increase in damage, a simple way in which Defenders could be improved is through their inherent ability - an abiity which many will agree is among the worst of any archtype. Now, that alone is not a good reason for it to be changed however consider the following:

- The ability has zero use outside of a team, an area which defenders could actually use more help with.

- For many powersets, the ability is counter productive. As a forcefield defender who's job it is to *prevent* damage, ideally hardly anyone will get hurt and the ability wont be in effect.

- The ability largely depends on the abilities of your team mates and their sets. If you team with a good tank or controller, again it will have minimal use.

When you compare Viligance to something like Containment, an inherent which gives controllers very respectful damage early on if they slot accordingly (My Mind Controller breezed through the early levels) and becomes even more poweruful with double damage EPP AoE's.

Overall I think Defenders need a boost in damage because they are lacking and when they have a secondary devoted to damage, the benefits seem lost when Controllers, who have no damage powerset and are blessed with Controls, Buffs/Debuffs and pets and more damage.

My suggestion to the devs that a quick and simple way of making a change to Defenders would be to target their inherent, Viligance, which is currently underpeforming. If changed to something that would really boost Defenders and make them feel more Heroic, its ramificaitons would be across all powersets and be a universal buff of goodness.

Thanks for reading

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Sure, I'll take a buff to my Defenders' damage. While you're at it, I'd appreciate adding a defense debuff to Petrifying Gaze. The combat spam says there's one there, after all! >.>

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http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt

While I wouldn't argue with a damage boost, you also have to realize that no two defenders are alike. What may be a nice, reasonable damage boost for an Empathy defender's secondary could be far too much for, say, Kinetics.

Also, don't forget that *everything* a Defender does with an attack has a decided secondary effect - the target's getting hit harder afterward (Sonic's -res,) or they can't hit as well, or they're getting hit more often, for instance.

Plus, given most defender *primaries,* while they may not be hitting as hard, they're generally safer - I've had my lowbie Rad defenders, for instance, standing in the middle of an enemy group "dancing" as everything around tries (and fails) to hit my character. Empathy can 'erase' damage, to an extent. Storm's a mixed bag of tricks. Obviously, some have it easier than others.

The point I'm trying to make in a roundabout way is that no single fix really works over the entire range of Defenders, just because of how varied their primaries are. I agree Vigilance could use looking at - and seeing tweaks to Domination and Defiance (and, somewhat, the Assassination/Hidden status of Stalkers,) we know the devs aren't against doing so. I'd *like* to see it tweaked to be more useful solo. But I don't want to see Defenders defined by one primary (such as "Controllers are too powerful, just look at Fire/Kin!" - despite the calls about Empathy, Defenders aren't in that situation at the moment.)

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I agree to some extent, the abilities of Defenders and Controllers vary much more significantly based on powerset then other archtypes, mainly because they all play so differently so you end up with subsets of archtypes. However the key issue for me is that for Defenders, improving the baseline performance will help the weaker sets but wouldn't overpower the already good sets, not in my opinion anyway. They just aren't powerful enough.

As for secondary effects, I believe Sonics -Res is really the only effect that has a huge impact. The others have a minimal effect on a teams performance.

You are right though, there is nothing the devs can do to balance Defenders wich each other, but definitly for weaker Defender sets for soloing such as Empathy of FF, it is a shame that they are better off in the hands of controllers because of the weak damage, which in effect they are exchanging a control set for.

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I've thought that Vigilance should be an inherent that perhaps makes your secondary effects a little weaker while solo, but buffs your damage? Like a slider effect based on how many people are in your team.

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The underlying assumption of the thread is that Defenders have a problem that needs addressing.

I question that assumption.

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Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.

While I'm wont to agree for the most part...,

- You must realize that a defender (more then any other AT) really shines in group play. In essence, a defender that's actually defending people is well...a defender. The powersets alone often scream 'team-player' (i.e. - empathy, force-field), but that is not entirely the case.
- After making a few defenders...some bad, some just plain blah yet others not knowing how I managed to get past 20th there are a few powerset combinations that really shine - SOLO. One particular set combination was Kinetics/Energy Blast. This combination, so far, has been fun...almost to the point of being helarious.
- With the recovery, regen, kb almost perpetual nonstop buildup...this powerset turns into a literal wrecking ball even after just one application of siphon power. Once you have siphon power stacked (or even better, fulcrum shift)...you won't have much by way of defense, but you won't have many enemies opposing you either - you just blasted them to kingdom come!
- Give a Kin/EB Defender a try...you might be pleased to have a defender deal out that much carnage!

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So the -ToHit of Dark Blast, that can easily stack into the 28% range doesn't bring anything?

The -Recharge & Slow Effect in Ice Blast doesn't reduce incoming damage, and allow for more breathing room when facing a harder hitting enemy?

Psychic Blast may not have the slow, but it's got more -Recharge, so I guess that must be pretty useless too.

And the -Defense in Radiation Blast, well, I know that I hate inducing a cascade defense failure in my enemies, making them easier to hit for the whole team.

From personal experience, the KB in Energy Blast made me fall in love with my Kin / Energy all over again. I was about to delete him at lvl 45, because I was having trouble soloing even con mobs. I said 'To hell with it' and respec'ed him one last time. I droped leadership for more blasts and slotted them with the intent to arrest with extreme fun. You know what? It is. I control my KB, and I can take down the Fake Nem / War Hulks Spawns in PI all day, and they con orange. Guess that's useless too.

I will agree that Electricity is a tough one, if only for the fact that it takes a very close eye to stack the effects perfectly and continuously to keep mobs at both zero endurance and zero recovery.

Archery gives us more damage at the expense of not having any (apparently) useless secondary effects. Just fast activations and a crashless nuke. And more damage. Nothing special there it seems.

We won't mention sonic, because it does rock and I'll agree with you there.

Now factor all this in alongside a slotted and well used primary, and I don't see where it's so tough to solo. Maybe an Empath / Archery Defender would have some issues, but even they should be able to take on Heroic Missions without too much issue.

Also, dual builds for all your soloing needs. I love teaming with other folks, seeing awesome interactions of powers, but there are times when I don't feel social or it's 3am and I'm having no luck finding someone else, so then it's solo-build time.

/ramble..

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I have a lvl 50 Trick Arrow/Archery which was very difficult because soloing was not easy at all. The offensive set seemed like it too forever to kill a boss. After I got the Mental Mastery Pool I recieved a second Hold power which helps keep the boss from 1 shotting me. But by the time I get him held and shower him with debuffs I do not have much End left to kill him with. Soloing is very tough on Defenders I agree.

But it is my understanding that some archetypes were designed to be more team oriented. Others were designed to solo. Unfortunately the Defender is not a lone wolf, it is a support toon. If you would like higher damage output try making a blaster. I hear that fire trollers have nice damage output also.

About the inherent power, I would be very pleased if it were tweaked a little bit. It might not be a good idea for it to have +Damage since as was stated above, that the damage increases would vary depending on the type of defender you have. But maybe it could increase damage and or defense of self depending on how many enemies are surrounding you. The more enemies in a given range, the more damage you have. Good food for thought!

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This is something that just popped into my head.

For my idea, Defenders would have several abilities. One would be a discount on endurance. Pretty much, whenever a player joins their team, they get a discount on endurance. Of course, this would probably help Defenders keep on attacking without worrying too much about endurance. I also believe this would help them in the lower levels.

For the second part would pretty much be be Defiance. Whenever a Defender's health starts to drop, their damage increases. Not only that, but any debuffs or buffs would also increase. Attacks with debuffs would also be included.

This was just a quick idea. It doesn't have to be liked. You may also change it as well to your liking.

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I'd disagree that Defenders fall behind tanks and Controllers for damage.

The average Defender puts out way more AoE damage than the average Tank or Controller, unfortunately, that isnt much use solo, since it allows you to piss off an entire spawn and take them to half health.
It depends on the sets of course. Dark/Dark does ok, you have 2 fast recharging cones and good survivability. Emp/Elec has problems becuase you have to survive at point blank range for 8 seconds till your AoEs Recharge, and thats with slotting.

So Defenders become team dependent on three counts:

1) Ally only powers in primary - varies by set
2) Their inherent only works on teams
3) They sometimes need a team to leverage their AoE damage, depends on primary again

The first point is kind of taken as read when you choose a set. eg Sonic, Empathy and Force Fields wont solo as well as Dark or Storm, and none will solo as well as a Scrapper.

It's also one of the few mechanisms in the game that encourages teaming in a non-artificial way. The XP gain from teaming is just put there by the devs in a table somewhere, but the force multiplication of Defenders is a real emergent behaviour from the game rules.

The second would be the easiest fix to balance. Make Vigilance add a damage bonus that diminishes with team size, or even just add the Defender themselves into the existing scheeme so solo-ers get an End discount when they're in trouble.

3) Can't be balanced. You can't have all Defenders wiping out spawns by themselves in one volley. That's Blaster territory. A little damage boost wouldn't hurt, but you cant exceed Corrupter damage scales out of fairness.

So, yeah, I agree, PeaceMoon. Vigilance could certainly use a boost, preferably one slanted towards small teams or solo-ists.

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I have to agree that Defenders could use a little boost in the damage department. And i have an idea.

Why not just add a bit to Vigilance? I never REALLY liked it as is anyhow. You only gain benefits when your team is dying? Booo!!

How about adding a reverse mechanic? When your team is low on health you get an endurance discount. When your team is full you get a small damage boost. Have it scale from one to the other as your team heads into the red.

That would totally rock in my opinion.

Edit: As an alternative, if you think Defenders don't need more damage, but still think Vigilance needs a buff, it could boost secondary effects of your powers instead of damage. That would rock as well.

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I do not disagree that Vigilance is a comparatively weak inherent and should be reviewed for alternatives, though I do not find it a "gross imbalance" but rather a minor one. I do question several of the premises leading to the suggestion that defenders need a damage boost.

1st. That the secondary is devoted solely to damage.

Except for Archery, the debuff aspect from the secondary is very substantial and contributes to the performance of the set (which again, to a large degree is NOT "devoted solely to damage")

2nd. That controllers and tankers bring more damage to a team than a defender.

This is situationally based, depending on the powerset combinations being compared and should not be taken as sufficient justification for an AT-wide damage boost.

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[ QUOTE ]
The underlying assumption of the thread is that Defenders have a problem that needs addressing.

I believe that assumption is hilarious

[/ QUOTE ]

fix'd

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No

Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo

I think you underestimate our fools, sir.

Why /duel is a bad idea

Defenders have nothing to complain about until Corruptors are addressed. They have a ranged damage primary and are the lowest damage AT redside.


edit for disclaimer: I don't think Corruptors or Defenders really have problems, but the excuse provided - a ranged damage secondary - is pathetically weak and if that's the justification given then Defenders certainly shouldn't be the first looked at.

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[ QUOTE ]
Defenders have nothing to complain about until Corruptors are addressed. They have a ranged damage primary and are the lowest damage AT redside.

[/ QUOTE ]

They're also the Defender equivalents for redside. Keep in mind that Castle has told the players repeatedly that whether a power set is primary or secondary has no bearing on its power. All that the primary/secondary disparity serves to do is alter acquisition level.

Something else to keep in mind about Corruptors is that, thanks to Scourge, their higher damage cap, and use of Blaster primaries, they're actually capable of better damage than Dominators (which are being brought up to rough equivalence with the I15 Dominator buffs).

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[ QUOTE ]
I do not disagree that Vigilance is a comparatively weak inherent and should be reviewed for alternatives, though I do not find it a "gross imbalance" but rather a minor one. I do question several of the premises leading to the suggestion that defenders need a damage boost.

1st. That the secondary is devoted solely to damage.

Except for Archery, the debuff aspect from the secondary is very substantial and contributes to the performance of the set (which again, to a large degree is NOT "devoted solely to damage")

2nd. That controllers and tankers bring more damage to a team than a defender.

This is situationally based, depending on the powerset combinations being compared and should not be taken as sufficient justification for an AT-wide damage boost.

[/ QUOTE ]

Vigilence nee Negligence is an extremely weak inherent. It provides wildly differing levels of benefit.

Solo it provides none. On small teams especially of experienced players it provides little. On large teams it provides the level it should provide but generally only if there is a mix of experience and ATs on the team.

It provides maximum benefit to poor defender playstyles (read that as reactive h34l0rs) and minmal benefit to active playstyles.

It provides maximum benefits to defenders who focus on repairing damage and minimal benefit to defenders who operate by preventing damage to begin with.

It varies so much that it is nearly impossible to properly slot end reduction enhancers except for solo defenders who all ready know that their benefit from Vigilence will be "0"

I'll mention again what I have before.

The devs are happy with the DPA of defenders the chances of getting a damage boost are slim. (Especially when you consider the things that RO does publicly.) The main problem on defenders is the variable (and much too low IME) DPE.

What I have proposed in the past is a vigilence buff system rather than the current mechanic.

Any time a defender activates a power from their primary or secondary they get a vigilence buff that lasts 10 (perhaps 15 since many defender buffs take 2-3 seconds to cast) seconds that has the effect of reducing the defender's end costs by 5% AND reduces the recharge of their powers by 5%.

The defender can stack a maximum of 5 of these buffs at any one time capping the benefit from vigilence at a 25% reduction to end costs and recharge.

This accomplishes several things.

1) Vigilence provides exactly the same benefit to each and every Primary/Secondary combination.
2) Vigilence fuctions properly no matter what size team you are on and works solo.
3) Vigilence functions properly regardless of the experience of the team.
4) Defender DPA remains unchanged.
5) BUT Defender DPS is slightly increased by allowing the defender to cycle their hard hitting single target attacks a little more often.
6) AND defender DPE is increased and remains consistant across all defender power set combinations.
7) This style Vigilence would also provide higher reward for good, proactive defender play, rather than providing higher rewards for, poor, reactive play.

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-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson

[ QUOTE ]
Defenders have nothing to complain about until Corruptors are addressed. They have a ranged damage primary and are the lowest damage AT redside.


edit for disclaimer: I don't think Corruptors or Defenders really have problems, but the excuse provided - a ranged damage secondary - is pathetically weak and if that's the justification given then Defenders certainly shouldn't be the first looked at.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually there's nothing wrong with Corruptors and Defenders should be addressed first. If you don't believe me I put this suggestion to you.

Swap inherents and see who's hosed. I'd drop Vigilence for Scourge in less than half a heart beat with out even blinking.

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-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Defenders have nothing to complain about until Corruptors are addressed. They have a ranged damage primary and are the lowest damage AT redside.

[/ QUOTE ]

They're also the Defender equivalents for redside. Keep in mind that Castle has told the players repeatedly that whether a power set is primary or secondary has no bearing on its power. All that the primary/secondary disparity serves to do is alter acquisition level.

Something else to keep in mind about Corruptors is that, thanks to Scourge, their higher damage cap, and use of Blaster primaries, they're actually capable of better damage than Dominators (which are being brought up to rough equivalence with the I15 Dominator buffs).

[/ QUOTE ]
You can eliminate every single thing in your list except for Scourge - which is often overkill. The higher cap is meaningless at the damage modifier they have.

1.05 (melee modifier) * 4 (Dominator cap) = 4.20
0.95 (ranged modifier) * 4 (Dominator cap) = 3.80
0.75 (ranged and melee modifier) * 5 (Corruptor cap) = 3.75

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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Defenders have nothing to complain about until Corruptors are addressed. They have a ranged damage primary and are the lowest damage AT redside.


edit for disclaimer: I don't think Corruptors or Defenders really have problems, but the excuse provided - a ranged damage secondary - is pathetically weak and if that's the justification given then Defenders certainly shouldn't be the first looked at.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually there's nothing wrong with Corruptors and Defenders should be addressed first. If you don't believe me I put this suggestion to you.

Swap inherents and see who's hosed. I'd drop Vigilence for Scourge in less than half a heart beat with out even blinking.

[/ QUOTE ]
Read the entire post you quote. Particularly the italicized part.

And you'll never manage to convince me that Defenders should get a damage increase before Corruptors.

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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Defenders have nothing to complain about until Corruptors are addressed. They have a ranged damage primary and are the lowest damage AT redside.


edit for disclaimer: I don't think Corruptors or Defenders really have problems, but the excuse provided - a ranged damage secondary - is pathetically weak and if that's the justification given then Defenders certainly shouldn't be the first looked at.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually there's nothing wrong with Corruptors and Defenders should be addressed first. If you don't believe me I put this suggestion to you.

Swap inherents and see who's hosed. I'd drop Vigilence for Scourge in less than half a heart beat with out even blinking.

[/ QUOTE ]
Read the entire post you quote. Particularly the italicized part.

And you'll never manage to convince me that Defenders should get a damage increase before Corruptors.

[/ QUOTE ]

I did read all of it and I play them both. The only 50 villian I have is a corruptor. I have the opposite point of view from you. You can't convince me that Corruptors should be looked at first. The 2 ATs are nearly identical. The main differences being red/blue flavor and a a decent inherent that works solo red side compared to a crappy inherent that has variable levels of performance and provides no benefits solo on blue.

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-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson

Miladys_Knight , I like your concept. It is a solid suggestion and bettering the endurance cost as well as the recharge promotes more activity. But what happens when that increased activity backfires and draws more aggro than you can handle? Even still I would say your idea is better than what we have. Well done good sir, well done indeed.

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Nice idea, Milady's Knight.
The Recharge bonus is interesting. It would benefit some sets more than others, particularly Empathy, which has a lot of long recharge buffs.

Force Fields, in contrast, has none, well, Repulsion Bomb would be up more I guess.

The downside is, there would be a benefit from "rocking the aura" to keep up the recharge bonus for Recovery Aura and Regen Aura to come back up as soon as poss.

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[ QUOTE ]
Miladys_Knight , I like your concept. It is a solid suggestion and bettering the endurance cost as well as the recharge promotes more activity. But what happens when that increased activity backfires and draws more aggro than you can handle? Even still I would say your idea is better than what we have. Well done good sir, well done indeed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well solo all the aggro is yours anyway. Teamed you are likely to have melee or controllers and you can build up your Vigilence buffs by.... buffing first. While someone else on the team opens.

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-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson

[ QUOTE ]
Nice idea, Milady's Knight.
The Recharge bonus is interesting. It would benefit some sets more than others, particularly Empathy, which has a lot of long recharge buffs.

Force Fields, in contrast, has none, well, Repulsion Bomb would be up more I guess.

The downside is, there would be a benefit from "rocking the aura" to keep up the recharge bonus for Recovery Aura and Regen Aura to come back up as soon as poss.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's why it's a 2 fold buff. Sets like empathy will get more use out of the +rech portion of it where sets like FF will get much more use out of the endurance reduction. It is much more balanced with my proposal than current Vigilence is.

As far as Aura rocking goes that is still done today but if you look at the cast +rech time of Healing Aura you can see that Aura rocking alone will not provide full Vigilence bonuses, a behavior that would eventually be self regulating.

By the time you have enough influence to afford a build that can stack healing Aura 5 times in 10 seconds you should also have gained enough experience to realize that this would be the poorest playstyle choice to attain that level of personal vigilence buff.

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-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson