Time to take another look at Defenders
By
Airhammer,
Posted on: 2009-06-14 11:43 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
how about starting a defender because controllers are a crashing bore, and have been forever?
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On another note, scrapper inherent is totally primary.
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i could swear the Scrapper inherent is totally damage, not powerset, related. Damage auras and attacks in the secondary get crits, and i could swear pool attacks do as well. Am i remembering it wrong?
[/ QUOTE ]Of the Scrapper secondary powers that deal damage (Death Shroud, Dark Regeneration, Soul Transfer, Blazing Aura, Consume, Burn, Rise of the Phoenix, and Shield Charge), none are capable of critical hits.
Pool power attacks can crit, though.
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Ah, okay. i didn't recall seeing crit messages from Death Shroud, but don't usually focus on the aura messages while fighting. i did recall seeing AS crit messages.
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
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On another note, scrapper inherent is totally primary.
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i could swear the Scrapper inherent is totally damage, not powerset, related. Damage auras and attacks in the secondary get crits, and i could swear pool attacks do as well. Am i remembering it wrong?
[/ QUOTE ]Of the Scrapper secondary powers that deal damage (Death Shroud, Dark Regeneration, Soul Transfer, Blazing Aura, Consume, Burn, Rise of the Phoenix, and Shield Charge), none are capable of critical hits.
Pool power attacks can crit, though.
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Ah, okay. i didn't recall seeing crit messages from Death Shroud, but don't usually focus on the aura messages while fighting. i did recall seeing AS crit messages.
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It does work with power pools and epic pools. More of a case of excluding the secondary specifically it feels like. So is it the only case of it's kind? MM's supremacy?
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The nice thing about the defender dilemma is that there are multiple ways to fix it. We don't excel at damage, we don't excel at survivability, we don't even particularly excel at support -- but fix any one of the above, and the problem's fixed.
For my money, I'd like to see the AT modifiers tweaked to be the undisputed champions of buff/debuff. Defenders should blow controllers, corruptors, masterminds and VEATs away at everything from +recharge buffs to -recovery debuffs -- isn't buff/debuff the point of the defender archetype? Yet we don't.
Even the buff/debuff types Defenders do have a numeric advantage on, the advantage is marginal. -35% instead of -30% resistance on our Freezing Rain? Big whoop. Radiant Aura heals +134 base instead of +118? Big whoop. Fulcrum Shift on a spawn of 10 buffs damage +300% instead of +290%? Big whoop with extra bitter bitterness.
Though of course I won't let my opinion stand in the way to a change to Vigilance. 
My Defender inherent idea hasn't changed: recode basic inspirations to be 25' PBAoEs, affecting self if user is not a defender, or affecting self and allies if user is a defender. Voila, Defenders have a huge niche as the biggest healing/endrestoring/buffing/demezzing dynamos of the game, bar none.
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I agree.
Force Fields and Sonic works pretty well with the Defender/Controller disparity. Having either of these sets at 3/4 effectiveness is definitely noticeable without making the Controller version useless.
Even the -Res in Sonic is noticeably different: -45% on your hard target instead of -60%.
But other sets need looking at a bit more closely. Empathy, for example, gives godly buffs that are limited by recharge. If Regen Aura, Recovery Aura or Adrenalin Boost are 3/4 strength, who cares? You're still getting more endurance and health than you can use up for the duration.
But if the Recharge were increased for the Controller version, say 400 seconds for AB and 650 sec for Auras instead of 300/500, then you'd notice.
Storm comes out very badly for Defenders. Freezing Rain, as Rigel says, has little difference in the debuff, and still does Knockdown. Steamy Mist still stealths, and does have lower defensive values for Controllers, but its not the be all and end all of the set like FF/Sonic.
Thunderclap is actually better for Controllers. The damage from Lightning Storm and Tornado are the same for both.
Once again, upping the recharge on the Controller versions could be a suitable penalty for having these powers as a secondary.
Lowering the pet damage for Controller versions could also work.
Kinetics - the set's gems, Speed Boost and Fulcrum Shift, can hit the cap (on End use and +Damage) on both Defenders and Controllers. For Controllers lowering the Recharge buff to half on Speed Boost, for Fulcrum Shift, keep the 80% buff/debuff but make it come up less often again.
Radiation Emission - maybe up the end cost of the toggles for Controllers? And make AM come up less often?
BTW, I love Controllers. I've played at least ten of them to the 30s. I'm just coming up with theoretical ideas on how the gap could be closed.
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The underlying assumption of the thread is that Defenders have a problem that needs addressing.
I question that assumption.
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Feel free to, but when you consider the effectiveness of Blaster vs Defender nukes, and compare it to the effectiveness of Defender buffs/debuffs vs Controller buffs/debuffs, I think Defenders have the right to compain.
The truth is their blasts are held back under the assumption they would be overpowered if they did damage close to blasters, yet at the same time controllers are throwing around their primary at almost the same effectiveness.
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- You must realize that a defender (more then any other AT) really shines in group play. In essence, a defender that's actually defending people is well...a defender. The powersets alone often scream 'team-player' (i.e. - empathy, force-field), but that is not entirely the case.
- After making a few defenders...some bad, some just plain blah yet others not knowing how I managed to get past 20th there are a few powerset combinations that really shine - SOLO. One particular set combination was Kinetics/Energy Blast. This combination, so far, has been fun...almost to the point of being helarious.
- With the recovery, regen, kb almost perpetual nonstop buildup...this powerset turns into a literal wrecking ball even after just one application of siphon power. Once you have siphon power stacked (or even better, fulcrum shift)...you won't have much by way of defense, but you won't have many enemies opposing you either - you just blasted them to kingdom come!
- Give a Kin/EB Defender a try...you might be pleased to have a defender deal out that much carnage!
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-I realise some powersets are better suited to teamplay, however it is a very big shame empathy and force fields were designed that way, with no synergy with their nukes at all. Perhaps this is where a better inherent could apply.
-I had a Kin/Ener Defender a longtime ago, and a Storm/Dark, FF/Arch and Emp/Psi. However once my Defenders get into their 20's, they seem to drop in effectiveness when solo by a lot. My Emp/Psi is lvl 41, but he rode on the back of teams and never attempted to solo.
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So the -ToHit of Dark Blast, that can easily stack into the 28% range doesn't bring anything?
The -Recharge & Slow Effect in Ice Blast doesn't reduce incoming damage, and allow for more breathing room when facing a harder hitting enemy?
Psychic Blast may not have the slow, but it's got more -Recharge, so I guess that must be pretty useless too.
And the -Defense in Radiation Blast, well, I know that I hate inducing a cascade defense failure in my enemies, making them easier to hit for the whole team.
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Well of course they do help, but they still have minimal impact. It isn't like tankers inherent which applies the taunt to entire group everytime they attack. So while they can be useful, the bigger the team gets, the less impact it will have. The -resist, -acc and -recharge are perhaps the best ones. Rad's -def is largely redundent at high level when everyone has good accuarcy anyway.
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I think the real issue is that controllers need serious nerfage. It has been "City of Controllers" for at least 3 years now, maybe longer. They need containment scrapped and changed to a buff that respects normal +damage limits and their buff/debuff modifier changed to .60.
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Unfortunately I do kind of agree with this, containment is pretty overpowered as it is. It isn't a +100% damage buff, it is much more then that. It basically makes every attack a dual strike, something which operates outside of normal damage rules.
If you take a new controller and slot their single target attacks for pure damage, you will find a low level controller can solo very very well. The only drawback is the higher end costs.
I don't mean to stir a big debate, but the way I see it Defenders are overshadowed in everything they do. They perform best at low levels where they have the advantage of getting their powers earlier, but I rarely see any Defenders now at 35+. However when Controllers reach their prime in 40+, Defenders often struggle to solo even cons, is it any wonder that team support usually comes in the form of a Controller not Defender at later levels?
Perhaps the only reason Defenders are more valuable early on is that they get their powers sooner. Once controllers catchup, they become redundent.
Or better yet, why is the difference between Controller Fulcrum Shift and Defender Fulcrum Shift so small, yet the difference between Blaster Power Burst and Defender Power Burst is so big?
Pfft. Because damage is king silly.
Nah just kidding.
Defenders are cursed by the dev's Idea of "just right"
I don't like the Idea of nerfing controllers or blasters to make defenders look better though. I'd rather buff defenders.
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While the title is obviously going to spark many one-liner replies, please hear me out.
Defenders currently have a secondary devoted completely to damaging yet it is my opinion that they fall behind both Tankers and Controllers in terms of damage. (Unless you compare the best damage of defenders, say Dark/Sonic with the worst of controllers, say Earth/Empathy)
Personally I view this as a gross imbalance of the game, Defenders should have much more power and ability in soloing. They are still heroes afterall! They should not be treated like the clerics or priests of the game by people who know no better - if anything that title is more fitting of controllers anyway.
It is just a big shame that Defenders start with a good ability to solo and it just goes down hill rapidly from there. By the time they hit level 20 and their real numbers, their abilities to solo have diminished by a large amount.
I realise Defender damage has been buffed a long time ago once before, and their attacks reduced in cost as well but I think it is time for another look. Reading the changes to Dominators, I would not be asking for a huge overhaul like that as I realise the amount of Dev time needed. However, it is also a good time to perhaps ask a similar look is given to Defenders as well?
Which leaves me thinking about a simple way of improving Defenders, apart from an across the board increase in damage, a simple way in which Defenders could be improved is through their inherent ability - an abiity which many will agree is among the worst of any archtype. Now, that alone is not a good reason for it to be changed however consider the following:
- The ability has zero use outside of a team, an area which defenders could actually use more help with.
- For many powersets, the ability is counter productive. As a forcefield defender who's job it is to *prevent* damage, ideally hardly anyone will get hurt and the ability wont be in effect.
- The ability largely depends on the abilities of your team mates and their sets. If you team with a good tank or controller, again it will have minimal use.
When you compare Viligance to something like Containment, an inherent which gives controllers very respectful damage early on if they slot accordingly (My Mind Controller breezed through the early levels) and becomes even more poweruful with double damage EPP AoE's.
Overall I think Defenders need a boost in damage because they are lacking and when they have a secondary devoted to damage, the benefits seem lost when Controllers, who have no damage powerset and are blessed with Controls, Buffs/Debuffs and pets and more damage.
My suggestion to the devs that a quick and simple way of making a change to Defenders would be to target their inherent, Viligance, which is currently underpeforming. If changed to something that would really boost Defenders and make them feel more Heroic, its ramificaitons would be across all powersets and be a universal buff of goodness.
Thanks for reading
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Step 1: Make a rad/sonic defender
Step 2: shut your pie hole
Step 3: Profit
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Nice worthless comment.
The issue I see with boosting Defender damage overall is that the high performers could become ludicrous. For example, Rad/Sonic/Dark can boost it's damage through Accelerate Metabolism, Enervating Field, Aim, Soul Drain, and stacking -resistance, easily reaching non-built up/non-aim Blaster damage with just SOs. Kin/Sonic/Dark would, in theory since I haven't seen or played one, also be silly right now with Siphon Power, Fulcrum Shift, Aim, Soul Drain, and stacking -res. The problem is, however, the damage gap between combos like that are huge with something like, say Emp/Electric/Mind. The first two could make a Blaster cry for Defender nerfs while the latter could consistently be the lowest damage dealer on the team. Sure, the lower damage combos would love a damage boost, but you'd risk making the high damage combos overpowered.
Personally, what I'd do is set Corruptors at 100% buff/debuff values. Once we have those, put Defenders at 125% and Controllers at 75%. I'm not entirely sure where MMs are supposed to go, but I assume right with Controllers. Of course, that would be a major rebalance to all four ATs and may not work out as well as it does in my head.
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Nerfing controllers won't change how much damage your defender does. It won't change how many blasts you need to use to drop a +2 LT. It won't help what you see as a problem with defenders at all. Seems like what people are calling a defender problem is really AT envy.
I know how it goes; I used to hate controllers for their ability to buff/debuff almost as well as my defender. I was worried that controllers would get all the teams. When containment was announced, I panicked and made all kinds of now-embarrassing posts about how this was the final nail in the coffin of defenders. Thank god for forums purges.
Then I got back to playing the game.
Never once been turned down for a team because "controllers are better." Never once had a problem with killing things. Turns out these problems were all in my head, and exacerbated by bandwagonning forum superstars. The only real problem that I think defenders have is their absolute garbage inherent, and to be honest, my defender does just fine in spite of that. As another poster above me said, controllers are (in my opinion) a terrible bore to play, and that alone is enough to keep me blasting away with my defenders. Yes, they do less damage than some ATs. No, they don't do too little damage, which is an important distinction to make.
Also, if you think defender damage isn't up to par, you are not playing around with enough -res 
-res is not a defender inherent, is entirely unavailable in some defender powersets, and among the sets that have it is easier to use in some than in others. This is strictly an observation, however, as I don't think defenders need improving in any sense.
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[QR] (not an attack on any poster)
Nerfing controllers won't change how much damage your defender does. It won't change how many blasts you need to use to drop a +2 LT. It won't help what you see as a problem with defenders at all. Seems like what people are calling a defender problem is really AT envy.
I know how it goes; I used to hate controllers for their ability to buff/debuff almost as well as my defender. I was worried that controllers would get all the teams. When containment was announced, I panicked and made all kinds of now-embarrassing posts about how this was the final nail in the coffin of defenders. Thank god for forums purges.
Then I got back to playing the game.
Never once been turned down for a team because "controllers are better." Never once had a problem with killing things. Turns out these problems were all in my head, and exacerbated by bandwagonning forum superstars. The only real problem that I think defenders have is their absolute garbage inherent, and to be honest, my defender does just fine in spite of that. As another poster above me said, controllers are (in my opinion) a terrible bore to play, and that alone is enough to keep me blasting away with my defenders. Yes, they do less damage than some ATs. No, they don't do too little damage, which is an important distinction to make.
Also, if you think defender damage isn't up to par, you are not playing around with enough -res
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I remember you... DOOOOOOM....
jk
I have no idea who you are. The problem with your argument is that two defender sets have no way to buff damage or debuff enemy resistance. Force Field and Empathy. They got nothing.... bupkiss.... zip. Which is why I'd never play either. See I like to solo. And even If I were a team player someimes frankly I just don't want to be bothered. Don't get me wrong... I know empaths are sought after. But what about the bubblers? For that matter my low-level Trick Arrows/Archery defender sucks at teh damage. I'm hoping that'll change but I'm catching fits actually trying to convert live Mobs into dead mobs at a decent pace. Controllers got containment to help them solo at low levels. My archer got a bag of rocks and some pointy sticks that just piss off mobs who then beat me about the head with the bag of rocks.
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[QR] (not an attack on any poster)
Nerfing controllers won't change how much damage your defender does. It won't change how many blasts you need to use to drop a +2 LT. It won't help what you see as a problem with defenders at all. Seems like what people are calling a defender problem is really AT envy.
I know how it goes; I used to hate controllers for their ability to buff/debuff almost as well as my defender. I was worried that controllers would get all the teams. When containment was announced, I panicked and made all kinds of now-embarrassing posts about how this was the final nail in the coffin of defenders. Thank god for forums purges.
Then I got back to playing the game.
Never once been turned down for a team because "controllers are better." Never once had a problem with killing things. Turns out these problems were all in my head, and exacerbated by bandwagonning forum superstars. The only real problem that I think defenders have is their absolute garbage inherent, and to be honest, my defender does just fine in spite of that. As another poster above me said, controllers are (in my opinion) a terrible bore to play, and that alone is enough to keep me blasting away with my defenders. Yes, they do less damage than some ATs. No, they don't do too little damage, which is an important distinction to make.
Also, if you think defender damage isn't up to par, you are not playing around with enough -res
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I agree that I don't want to turn this thread into a Defender vs Controller debate, however some comparison is needed in order to show that Defenders do need a boost. My main is a Controller so I am arguing against myself really, but I feel the cause is just.
I have to say, and this is to everyone who has suggested it so far, the notion that Defenders should be left alone because Rad/Sonic Defenders would be overpowered is... *ludicrous*.
I am not arguing they will be more powerful but, every AT has a set combination which is more powerful then the others. This is true for everyone. Even if Defenders did 10% of their current damage, Rad/Sonic would still be considered a powerful Defender set combination in relation to other Defender sets.
It is like arguing against Controller-wide buffs purely because of Fire/Kin builds - whislt ignoring the plight of all other sets.
It is well known that /Sonic is quite a decent set because of stacking -res, we shouldn't penalize all other Defenders though just because it is performing far above the rest.
If I could make changes to the game I would
A) Change containment so instead of a dual-strike it was more of a +100% damage buff which is effected by damage caps. Doing this would mean it would not play outside of the rules. I would also specifically state that Controllers ability to "overpower" is part of their inherent as well and not just another freebie.
B) Change the Defender inherent to work while solo and also increase their damage. Doing this would hopefully give defenders a fun mechanic in order to cleverly make use of both their secondary and primary for mutual use. Perhaps a system like blasters inherent, whenever you use a primary power you increase your damage, whenever you use a secondary power you increase your buff effectiveness.
C) Increase Defender damage overall so that they can really contribute to a teams performance - even if it means reducing Sonics effectiveness a little.
I might actually run some tests comparing my Mind/Storm's damage, to my Empath/Psi's damage. Although I already know that my even if I slot both for damage with their nukes, my Controller, even without a pet, will do more damage and have less risk of dying due to better AoE control.
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I have to say, and this is to everyone who has suggested it so far, the notion that Defenders should be left alone because Rad/Sonic Defenders would be overpowered is... *ludicrous*.
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I agree. I also think that the notion that defenders need a damage buff because some defenders are outdamaged by some controllers is equally ludicrous, if not more so.
This is a pretty good discussion in a lot of ways, but there's some real communication issues. A lot of things are not clear to me. I would like someone to explain to me the following:
1. Why do defenders need a damage buff?
2. How would nerfing controllers improve defenders?
I hold the position that defenders are just fine. I play an emp/arch and have no trouble soloing. Just because I am outdamaged by a fire/kin controller doesn't mean my defender needs a buff. It doesn't mean that defenders in general need a buff. It also doesn't mean the fire/kin controller needs a nerf, and certainly doesn't mean that all controllers need a nerf.
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A) Change containment so instead of a dual-strike it was more of a +100% damage buff which is effected by damage caps. Doing this would mean it would not play outside of the rules. I would also specifically state that Controllers ability to "overpower" is part of their inherent as well and not just another freebie.
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See above. What does this do for defenders? What problem, real or perceived, does this address? How does controller damage affect defender damage? Would you ask the same for scrappers, who have a similar mechanic in their crits? What about Scourge?
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B) Change the Defender inherent to work while solo and also increase their damage. Doing this would hopefully give defenders a fun mechanic in order to cleverly make use of both their secondary and primary for mutual use. Perhaps a system like blasters inherent, whenever you use a primary power you increase your damage, whenever you use a secondary power you increase your buff effectiveness.
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Agreed in full, and then some. The defender inherent is utter [censored]. It's garbage. There's not enough words for how worthless it is. Your suggestion is far from the worst and I would support it fully.
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C) Increase Defender damage overall so that they can really contribute to a teams performance - even if it means reducing Sonics effectiveness a little.
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My emp/arch and ff/rad contribute to team performance in amazing ways. They also do damage, and while it might not be "wow the crowd/one-shot the boss" damage, it helps significantly. The idea that team performance and contribution is weighed solely in the damage done by the player belongs in the trash beside the idea that defenders are healers.
I'm not trying to be an [censored], so if something I type can be read multiple ways, and one of those ways makes you angry or hurt, I meant one of the other ways
My wife is fond of saying, "I have 2 goals for my toons, beat stuff up and stay alive." Many players have that philosophy which translates into "dealing damage" and "personal mitigation" whether that be passive like defense/resistance toggles, or active like hard or soft controls.
She doesn't like defenders because, quite frankly, they are deficient in both categories particularly when solo, which is where she spends 90% of her play time.
The main problem is that most defender buffs that make them huge team contributors can't be used by the defender on themselves. Changing them to allow it would be vastly overpowered but this is the root of the problem. All Defenders are force multipliers on any team, but solo you are multiplying by one and gain little unless you are building a defender combination specifically to be an offender and using primary and secondary power sets that play a bit less to the team.
The Defender is the one and only remaining archtype who in all combinations are designed around teaming and haven't had a mechanism added to allow them to solo.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
You know, dealing damage and personal mitigation is the defender forté. Debuffing defence and resistance = increased damage. Debuffing accuracy and damage output = personal mitigation. Even Empathy, arguably the "worst" solo set, has a fast-recharging heal as well as a couple of massive regen and recovery buffs. Inspirations to cover any ****** in the armor and maybe sharpen up the sword a little, and voilà! Instant soloist.
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Cold Domination: 6/9 powers benefit the solo defender.
Dark Miasma: 9/9 powers benefit the solo defender.
Empathy: 3/9 powers benefit the solo defender.
Force Field: 7/9 powers benefit the solo defender.
Kinetics: 7/9 powers benefit the solo defender.
Radiation Emission: 7/9 powers benefit the solo defender.
Sonic Resonance: 4/9 powers benefit the solo defender.
Storm Summoning: 8/9 powers benefit the mighty solo defender.
Trick Arrow: 9/9 powers benefit the solo defender.
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Taken as a whole, 60/81 powers benefit the solo defender, and only two primaries have less than half their powers available to the solo defender. I submit that the challenge is to build the defender that cannot benefit from his or her primary when solo, rather than building one that can. Force multiplier? Hell yeah. Most defenders are pretty offensive by default The ones that aren't, such as my emp/arch, have a second build for soloing that takes fewer of the team-only powers in favour of other, more useful ones.
Not to call anyone on their playing skill, but an anecdotal inability to survive solo doesn't indicate anything other than the need for more experience or a willingness to play in other styles. However, if one is unwilling to play an AT for whatever reason, that's fine! Hell, I won't play controllers, dominators, or stalkers, because I don't like the playstyle. However, that's not evidence that there is anything wrong with those ATs.
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B) Change the Defender inherent to work while solo and also increase their damage. Doing this would hopefully give defenders a fun mechanic in order to cleverly make use of both their secondary and primary for mutual use. Perhaps a system like blasters inherent, whenever you use a primary power you increase your damage, whenever you use a secondary power you increase your buff effectiveness.
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Agreed in full, and then some. The defender inherent is utter [censored]. It's garbage. There's not enough words for how worthless it is. Your suggestion is far from the worst and I would support it fully.
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hey....kinda like my idea, only a bit more balanced...
/sign
There's a quote buried somewhere in these forums that I think applies here - or at least half of it does.
A Defender looks at a battle as a Chess Match.
Right there is a great deal of the problem.
Defenders are not intuitive. It's not nearly as easy to use the Buff/Debuff effectively sets as it is to use any other in the game. Not even Controls.
It is NOT easy to successfully master one of these sets. It's even harder to successfully combine or place the powers to actually mitigate more damage than they draw to you (at least, when solo.)
So (when considering extensive solo play) while other ATs are cruising through the initial levels, Defenders (and Corruptors, incidentally) are lagging behind, slowly working out the kinks in their sets, and looking at each mission as another chore to be completed.
And visiting the Hospital.
A lot.
And then these same players look around, and see that Toon that was in the Tutorial at the same time, who is AT XXX. And wonders to himself... "Why, self, is that toon already in his late 20s, while I slowly creep my way through the teens?"
When you don't know what you are doing, Solo Defenders (and again, Corruptors) are a massive chore. 3 to 4 time the effort for less than half the results that other ATs give you. That mission that a Scrapper or Blaster finishes within 10 minutes? Controllers and Tankers 20? The Defender is probably looking at 30-40 minutes minimum, including a strong chance of including multiple trips to the hospital and back to the mission.
(Provided it isn't a mission someone can ghost. Those kinda break the scenario.)
When it comes to solo play, Defenders and Corruptors alike, will be painful and slow until they reach the 20s, and Single Origin Enhancements. Like Tankers, this is a huge turning point, and I find it often redefines how the ATs play.
They still remain rather slow, though. Especially the Defenders.
So, for those dedicated - or obsessed - enough, a Defender can become an incredibly versatile solo player... who still needs to analyze each battle, try to predict how the enemies will react, and hope nothing unforeseen happens, and renders most of your mitigation moot.
It's not something that many players can stand to do. I certainly have issues with it, and I have struggled with getting Defenders up into the 20s, and seen the difference that makes.
I am all for changing the so-called "Inherent" that Defenders have been stuck with. The change proposed earlier? With a +Rech and -End Use buff attached to each power? I'd LOVE that. It may provide just enough forgiveness into the AT that it no longer is a matter of a single little mistake before another trip to the Hospital.
And, for the record, I HAVE seen a team leader turn down a defender in the hopes of grabbing another controller. This was over a year ago, but it still happened.
Well, that's just my two bits... make of that what you will.
-This Space Intentionally Left Blank.-
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You know, dealing damage and personal mitigation is the defender forté. Debuffing defence and resistance = increased damage. Debuffing accuracy and damage output = personal mitigation. Even Empathy, arguably the "worst" solo set, has a fast-recharging heal as well as a couple of massive regen and recovery buffs. Inspirations to cover any ****** in the armor and maybe sharpen up the sword a little, and voilà! Instant soloist.
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Cold Domination: 6/9 powers benefit the solo defender.
Dark Miasma: 9/9 powers benefit the solo defender.
Empathy: 3/9 powers benefit the solo defender.
Force Field: 7/9 powers benefit the solo defender.
Kinetics: 7/9 powers benefit the solo defender.
Radiation Emission: 7/9 powers benefit the solo defender.
Sonic Resonance: 4/9 powers benefit the solo defender.
Storm Summoning: 8/9 powers benefit the mighty solo defender.
Trick Arrow: 9/9 powers benefit the solo defender.
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Taken as a whole, 60/81 powers benefit the solo defender, and only two primaries have less than half their powers available to the solo defender. I submit that the challenge is to build the defender that cannot benefit from his or her primary when solo, rather than building one that can. Force multiplier? Hell yeah. Most defenders are pretty offensive by default The ones that aren't, such as my emp/arch, have a second build for soloing that takes fewer of the team-only powers in favour of other, more useful ones.
Not to call anyone on their playing skill, but an anecdotal inability to survive solo doesn't indicate anything other than the need for more experience or a willingness to play in other styles. However, if one is unwilling to play an AT for whatever reason, that's fine! Hell, I won't play controllers, dominators, or stalkers, because I don't like the playstyle. However, that's not evidence that there is anything wrong with those ATs.
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Actually dealing damage is a blaster/scrapper forte' and mitigation for most defender sets ISN'T personal mitigation it's team mitigation with the barest amount possible spilling over to the defender (forcefields is a prime example).
You created a nice little chart there but what is missing from it is that 9/9 of the primary powers (with the possible exception of storm) benefit the team as much or more than they benefit the defender.
Taken as a whole most other ATs have a much better ratio of self benefit than 60/81 and most others can play just as well solo or teamed with what ever their SO only build is rather than going to the expense of explicitly spending twice the inf to outfit both a solo and teaming build with IOs.
I would also point out that you've put your finger right in the real difference between controllers using the same secondary that defenders are as a primary....
The solo controller (with a couple exceptions) is a team once they get their pets and they still benefit from all the useable on others only powers in their secondary by leveraging them through a pet(s).
One of the easiest fixes to defenders other than a more balanced and effective inherrent might be to add a pet to each of the Defender epics to allow the defender to make use of those team only primary powers while solo.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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Empathy, for example, gives godly buffs that are limited by recharge. If Regen Aura, Recovery Aura or Adrenalin Boost are 3/4 strength, who cares?
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Sorry to inject even more gloom into this thread, but all three of those buffs are identical for controllers and defenders. Though if defenders got, ohh, maybe +625% base regen from Regen Aura instead of the +500% both ATs currently get, that may actually make a difference!
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I'm really not wild about the idea of a straight up controller nerf. If their damage takes a hit, any sort of hit, I'd insist on at least a partial rollback of the Issue 5 changes to their AoE mezzes (double recharge half duration, etc.).
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I have to say, and this is to everyone who has suggested it so far, the notion that Defenders should be left alone because Rad/Sonic Defenders would be overpowered is... *ludicrous*.
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I agree. I also think that the notion that defenders need a damage buff because some defenders are outdamaged by some controllers is equally ludicrous, if not more so.
This is a pretty good discussion in a lot of ways, but there's some real communication issues. A lot of things are not clear to me. I would like someone to explain to me the following:
1. Why do defenders need a damage buff?
2. How would nerfing controllers improve defenders?
I hold the position that defenders are just fine. I play an emp/arch and have no trouble soloing. Just because I am outdamaged by a fire/kin controller doesn't mean my defender needs a buff. It doesn't mean that defenders in general need a buff. It also doesn't mean the fire/kin controller needs a nerf, and certainly doesn't mean that all controllers need a nerf.
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Actually, I do think Controllers should have their secondaries scaled down a little. Not a lot, just a little so that the difference between the Defenders' primaries and the Controllers' secondaries are more noticeable. The Controllers' secondaries are such a large percentage of what Defenders can do, the difference is subtle. It should be more noticeable.
And yes, I do play controllers and I love them dearly.
Arc ID#30821, A Clean Break
The only problem with defeating the Tsoo is that an hour later, you want to defeat them again!
"Life is just better boosted!" -- LadyMage
"I'm a big believer in Personal Force Field on a blaster. ... It's your happy place." -- Fulmens
Vigilance always should have been a 2ndary effects/buff/debuff boost of some sort instead of an endurance discount.
As already pointed out - It does not help sets like FF, or DM in which parties do not take as much damage if the defender is doing their job - and when the green bars get low, the discount still doesn't help because those sets do not heal (yes, DM has a heal, but its not the focus of the set).
It does not help sets that have powerful end-fixing built in, such as Kinetics and Cold Dom, or sets that are preemptive such as FF.
Defiance was deemed underperforming because it relied on Blasters to "play badly", and it was hard to manage on teams with varied buffs and ATs. They fixed that. Now its Vigilance's turn. It's MORE broken than Defiance was.
Vigilance rewards a defender whose party is getting smashed in and losing life. This is incorrect. It should instead reward Defenders doing their job: Buff/debuff/damage, and teaming (a la cosmic balance). This could somehow triggers a super power that increases buff/debuff powers temporarily.
Vigilance must be completely overhauled. Once vigilance is replaced by something else, that is perhaps quite a bit more fun than the certainly boring (and allegedly underperforming vigilance), we can then better assess if Defenders need any more fine tuning.
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Vigilance must be completely overhauled. Once vigilance is replaced by something else, that is perhaps quite a bit more fun than the certainly boring (and allegedly underperforming vigilance), we can then better assess if Defenders need any more fine tuning.
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Speak, Brother!
Really, I am aware of how much work would be involved in overhauling Vig... but I think it is the root of most Defender's issues. An inherant power that has as much impact on the Defender as Defiance does for a Blaster, or that Containment does on a Controller, would likely revolutionize Defenders.
-This Space Intentionally Left Blank.-
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Vigilance must be completely overhauled. Once vigilance is replaced by something else, that is perhaps quite a bit more fun than the certainly boring (and allegedly underperforming vigilance), we can then better assess if Defenders need any more fine tuning.
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Speak, Brother!
Really, I am aware of how much work would be involved in overhauling Vig... but I think it is the root of most Defender's issues. An inherant power that has as much impact on the Defender as Defiance does for a Blaster, or that Containment does on a Controller, would likely revolutionize Defenders.
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An inherent power that has as much effect on defenders as Containment has on controllers is likely to be just as broken as containment is for controllers. How does "easily-attainable doubling of all final buff and debuff numbers" sound?
119088 - Outcasts Overcharged. Heroic.
The nice thing about the defender dilemma is that there are multiple ways to fix it. We don't excel at damage, we don't excel at survivability, we don't even particularly excel at support -- but fix any one of the above, and the problem's fixed.
My Defender inherent idea hasn't changed: recode basic inspirations to be 25' PBAoEs, affecting self if user is not a defender, or affecting self and allies if user is a defender. Voila, Defenders have a huge niche as the biggest healing/endrestoring/buffing/demezzing dynamos of the game, bar none.
For my money, I'd like to see the AT modifiers tweaked to be the undisputed champions of buff/debuff. Defenders should blow controllers, corruptors, masterminds and VEATs away at everything from +recharge buffs to -recovery debuffs -- isn't buff/debuff the point of the defender archetype? Yet we don't.
Even the buff/debuff types Defenders do have a numeric advantage on, the advantage is marginal. -35% instead of -30% resistance on our Freezing Rain? Big whoop. Radiant Aura heals +134 base instead of +118? Big whoop. Fulcrum Shift on a spawn of 10 buffs damage +300% instead of +290%? Big whoop with extra bitter bitterness.
Though of course I won't let my opinion stand in the way to a change to Vigilance.