While we're at it, I have a quick question. My build is ready to solo AVs, and so I've started the Maria Jenkins mission line. How many people does one need in their team, and on what difficulty, to make the final bosses into AVs as opposed to EBs?
Invincible and your self is all you need 
Soloing on Invincible will make the EB an AV.
"All right, they're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time"- Chesty Puller US Marine Corps
I solo'ed Hopkins and the Envoy of Shadows on my rad/rad defender. My 2-build is going to be geared toward soloing more AVs.
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The only point I mentioned it's NOT soloing is with the use of a Temp Shivan or HVAS, you are physically NOT soloing as there are two entities working on the same target. Maybe you should take your own advice as well.
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Wait, does that mean MMs with henchmen and Controllers with pets don't count as AV soloers? 
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Shivands and HVAS do indeed count as 'taking down an AV solo.' Since neither stay spawned when the player dies...they are TEMP POWERS not NPCs...therefore, they simply count as powers. MMs soloing an AV with their minion counts as soloing an AV.
Although, I'd say it up front if I used a temp power like Shivans or an Amy's Ward to solo an AV. I'd also say, "I DIDN'T use not stinking Shivans or Amy's Ward" if I DIDN'T to solo an AV.
I didn't use any shivans or temp powers when I solo'ed Hopkins or the Envoy of Shadows...temp powers didn't exist back then, not even the origin temp powers.
I used to be a lot more forgiving about insps, and back before ED, I was soloing all AVs w/my Fire/Rad using a tray full of blues. Nowadays w/high def builds being far more common, I think even allowing for T1 insps makes the job far, far easier. Consider a single small purp gives you 12.5% defense for 60 sec. At 50, that's 16 min worth of insps, plenty of time considering you can focus on more DPS w/the rest of your build since you now only need to hit 32.5% def to cap against most things. That's just not that hard, which is to say it's a bit tricky, but not *nearly* as difficult it is to get those last 10% or so (and really, it's the last 5% or so that forces a lot of sacrifices in our builds). Of course, it's easy enough to fill your tray w/T2 purples, and that just makes most fights trivial for a lot of builds.
I mean, if you pop an emergency green because of an unlucky string of hits, that's one thing, but if you go in with a build that's predicated on carrying purps or whatever, I don't consider that a "soloing" build, even if you can in fact solo stuff with it. And the bar, indeed has been raised by ppl like Shred and Werner, so if you're going to post about a feat, it may as well be a worthwhile one, right? Kinda like being a billionaire used to be noteworthy a year or so ago, but now, everyone and his brother's worth well north of that (at least on the market forum 
).
An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee
I think its an accomplishment to solo an AV, regardless of what temporary powers or inspirations you use.
It will give you a good idea of what you REALLY need to solo HC, as in no temps/insps, because you'll obviously find the area(s) in your build that, should you shoose to build an AV solo'er.
Personally, I'd give credit to the solo with temps/insps, more to the just insps, and the most to those who go hardcore.
Heck, anyone willing to spend that much time mashing buttons to kill just one AV is getting props from me, because frankly it bores me to tears.
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I don't think AV soloing is about following any particular rules or guidlines. To me, it is a personal challenge to push my build to its limits. I try to find my limit, then exceed it. To me, that is all that is important.
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I used to be a lot more forgiving about insps, and back before ED, I was soloing all AVs w/my Fire/Rad using a tray full of blues. Nowadays w/high def builds being far more common, I think even allowing for T1 insps makes the job far, far easier. Consider a single small purp gives you 12.5% defense for 60 sec. At 50, that's 16 min worth of insps, plenty of time considering you can focus on more DPS w/the rest of your build since you now only need to hit 32.5% def to cap against most things.
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The trick is if you can't necessarily afford to try it with a tray of nothing but Lucks. If you need blues, reds or greens, that cuts down on how many Lucks you can chain.
I'm not saying insps don't make it a lot easier, but I do think whether they actually make it possilbe or not it depends on the baseline quality (primarily meaning IOs) of your build and what AV you're fighting.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Although I see your points, I still disagree comparing Shivans to MM pets because the MM class was designed to have those pets alongside them. Your solo build starts with a baseline of Primary Powers, Secondary Powers, Pool Powers and Ancillary/Patron Powers. From there you can upgrade your capabilities using base powers, shivans/nukes, inspirations, etc.
That's just how I see it and is in no way how others perceive it as well. Just stating my opinion.
*be back in another couple hours when work is finished, lol*
@Mojo-
Proud Member of Fusion Force.
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Although I see your points, I still disagree comparing Shivans to MM pets because the MM class was designed to have those pets alongside them. Your solo build starts with a baseline of Primary Powers, Secondary Powers, Pool Powers and Ancillary/Patron Powers. From there you can upgrade your capabilities using base powers, shivans/nukes, inspirations, etc.
That's just how I see it and is in no way how others perceive it as well. Just stating my opinion.
*be back in another couple hours when work is finished, lol*
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level 50 mm's have around 800 hp without any accolades or +hp from io's.
their tier 3 pet has around 900 hp
i will say this - i have solo'd every dev created av fight red side on my thugs/traps without io's, no temps and no inspirations. using inspirations on a mm is clunky. playing an mm effectively in tough situations is a bit like playing chess.
but for 90% of the games content it's also extremely boring.
Well I was just referring to saying that having a Shivan for a Scrapper is like having Pets for an MM.
@Mojo-
Proud Member of Fusion Force.
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Well I was just referring to saying that having a Shivan for a Scrapper is like having Pets for an MM.
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no, it's not. a petless mm has NO chance of soloing a damned thing. flawed analogy is flawed.
There's so much power difference between builds, it seems quite silly to me to use some arbitrary rules to define what is and isn't considered an accomplishment.
An Ill/Rad controller soloing Lord Recluse without insps or temps is less impressive than an Elec/Dev blaster taking out any AV with insps and temps, IMHO.
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a petless mm has NO chance of soloing a damned thing. flawed analogy is flawed.
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I did it on the test server just for kicks and giggles on my Pulse Rifle/Traps MM 
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There's so much power difference between builds, it seems quite silly to me to use some arbitrary rules to define what is and isn't considered an accomplishment.
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I give up on you, you're just not listening.
@Mojo-
Proud Member of Fusion Force.
For me, the baseline has always been a single player character, anything goes. (Even thats bendable like having to dual box the Hess Simul-clickie, quad boxing Quaterfield clickes after clearing the maps solo is on my own challange to-do list)
Of course that baseline was originated in the I6 and I7 era. Heck, if throwing max level 25 EB as Shivans were then, would help by drawing an alpha, I'd do it in a heartbeat.
I personally view no insps as overly restrictive, and basically focuses only on a few characters and builds. Since IOs I view temps as generally unneccesary, but have no cry of foul when using them.
The other position is no IOs, but insps are OK, which is pretty much where I was back in the I8 era.
Who here has seen the video of Hobo Healer's emp and Infernal ? Between the nukes, the buffed Shivan and Amy, he only got a few shots into the fight. Excessive temp powers makes it very easy, but again, that is the way into this thing we do. Make it easy at first then gradually ramp up your own personal challange.
So whenever anyone manages the task, using whatever means, say well done, and then ask whats their next challange going to be. Keep driving folks forward as a group, then and only then will we reach maximum potential.
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
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Well I was just referring to saying that having a Shivan for a Scrapper is like having Pets for an MM.
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no, it's not. a petless mm has NO chance of soloing a damned thing. flawed analogy is flawed.
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i've seen videos of petless MM's soloing AV's, so it is possible
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Well I was just referring to saying that having a Shivan for a Scrapper is like having Pets for an MM.
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no, it's not. a petless mm has NO chance of soloing a damned thing. flawed analogy is flawed.
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i've seen videos of petless MM's soloing AV's, so it is possible
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Yeah I saw one solo Statesman in RV without pets even in the build
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i've seen videos of petless MM's soloing AV's, so it is possible
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Yeah I saw one solo Statesman in RV without pets even in the build
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Were they /Traps using the pre-nerf PGT behavior? If not, I'm really curious.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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There's so much power difference between builds, it seems quite silly to me to use some arbitrary rules to define what is and isn't considered an accomplishment.
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I give up on you, you're just not listening.
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The part you quoted (and, in fact, the whole post) had nothing to do with you or anything you posted.
Just found it weird, because what you said had nothing to do with what Jupiter said either.
@Mojo-
Proud Member of Fusion Force.
Ah, so if someone's reply to the last poster doesn't make sense, it must mean he's talking to you specifically, because you're so important and all.
... No, I'm afraid it's just the Quick Reply feature. I guess you were too busy thinking of witty patronizing comebacks to learn about that.
Let's get the whole deal out of the way, since you seem to want to read any of my comments like it's about you :
First, you suggest you speak for the whole scrapper forum ("When the scrapper forum refers to AV soloing we tend to carry the underlying message of No Temps/Insps."), which is what I was answering to, then you claim you're only talking about shivans (jumping from "using any temp" to "omg shivans!!" is a big leap, a leap you'll notice I never made here), then you suggest I listen to my own advice (... I never gave any), and finally we're here with this patronizing tone which is rather out of place coming from someone who makes about as much sense as a monkey on crack.
Look, if my "made up rules are made up rules" comment have hurt your feelings, I'm sorry, but you're not really going to convince me of anything by replying with random unrelated things. You've only succeeded in making me mildly irritated - I'm the one who doesn't get it ? Stuff it, buddy. You haven't even understood the simple point I made, and you're assuming I'm talking to or about you when I'm not.
For the record, since you seem so focused on that, I don't care if you count shivans as "entities" or whatever fancy word lets you justify a twisted definition of AV soloing.
I still stand by my definition : one character fighting one archvillain = archvillain soloing.
... You'd think such a statement would be obvious. I can't believe I have to argue for it.
Last I checked, shivans aren't characters ; if they are, please let me know how to unlock the AT, it's not showing on my screen.
You might want to listen to that imaginary advice I supposedly gave according to you, whatever it is. Cherish it too, because I won't be wasting any more of my time losing brain cells reading your posts.
no such rules...
opinions...
opinions...
surely none of you guys are right or wrong...
do what works for you.
I myself tend to build for no ins/temps. It's a lot better hearing someone soloing an AV without resorting to ins/temp, that's just me though.
back to the OP...
I don't think its that common, I've been in a few AV teams and most of the people still thinks its not possible for a scrapper to take on an AV. That's just from my experience.
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I myself tend to build for no ins/temps. It's a lot better hearing someone soloing an AV without resorting to ins/temp, that's just me though.
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Iggy,
IOs are just as much a game feature as insiprations. there is no greater 'worthiness' for using a billion inf tricked out build than for using a few lucks to cover a hole.
your 'resorting to insps', is the sort of IO set only snobbery I dislike in the scrapper forum.
Soft capping a SR via IOs = supposedly worthwhile
Soft capping a SR with a single luck = beneath some folks.
they are the exact same mechanic.
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
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Your opinion may vary, but soloing AVs with temps (Shivans, Nukes) and insps (T3's) isn't exactly an accomplishment.
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In general, I agree.
I'm a little forgiving on the insps thing, because (especially for a melee soloer), even a full level 50 tray of T3s may not last you though the fight. It depends on the AV some.
In general, though, Shivans are an absolutely incredible addition to your capability to solo a lot of AVs. It's not so much that you aren't still soloing them, but using one lowers the bar on the achievment a lot. It's a little like the difference in saying you won a solo fistfight fight against 10 navy seals, and then revealing that you actualy brought a tank. I find that Shivans alongside a buffer/debuffer are easy mode for the majority of AVs.
WB Nukes I put somewhere in between. A Bio nuke especially is like a suped up bonus tray of red and green inspirations with a side course of Hasten. It's not a sure win against an AV, but it sure helps a ton.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA