KB's burden on melee toons
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2009-06-07 13:30 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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tremor takes 3 seconds to cast, and most of us dont bother to take the power at all
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I would love to see you make a poll for that. Seriously, I'd find it fascinating, regardless of how it's presented.
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I definitely respeced out of it on my stone/elec brute.
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I couldn't imagine not having it on my Stone/Elec brute
No
Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo
I think you underestimate our fools, sir.
Why /duel is a bad idea
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Knockback is only ever a burden if an enemy flies into the next mob and causes double aggro
just have the tanker Taunt them back otherwise
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Aggro does not work that way. The only time a mob knocked into another mob will draw additional aggro is if someone chases said mob down and pulls aggro by being near the second spawn.
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Or if the enemy that's knocked back is an anchor for a debuff toggle. I know I just love looking up to see a horde of +4 bosses charging at me because the Energy blaster hurled my Enervating Field anchor into a mob on the floor below.
[/ QUOTE ] It happens. Targets generally die so fast that I don't pay attention to which particular enemy has a toggle on it.
I don't like KB affects in any melee AT attacks. I think they should all be just low enough mag to do KD instead. If you like the KB affect you can always slot a KB IO in there and get that affect. Unfortunetly you can't slot anything to make the KB weaker and turn it into KD.
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It happens. Targets generally die so fast that I don't pay attention to which particular enemy has a toggle on it.
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As a toggle debuff user, if this happens to me or if I just plain lose track of my toggle anchor, well... I just quietly detoggle that sucker and if a whole crowd shows up, I yell "Ambush!". 
Villains: Annie Alias, Dr. Amperical, Shade Golem, Knight Marksman
Heroes: The Clockwork Mime, Soccerpunch, The Fissioneer, Samurai Houston, Oversteer
Join The X-Patriots on Virtue!
Lol, I like that.
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tremor takes 3 seconds to cast, and most of us dont bother to take the power at all
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I would love to see you make a poll for that. Seriously, I'd find it fascinating, regardless of how it's presented.
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I've never taken a poll, but I don't know anyone who builds for performance over concept that keeps it.
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Tremor is disliked?
Blue: ~Knockback Squad on Guardian~
Red: ~Undoing of Virtue on [3 guesses]~
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Knockback works better than knockdown.
<ul type="square">[*]When foes "ragdoll" from knockback it takes them a lot longer to get back up. That's more mitigation.[*]Knockdown can't move a foe into a placed debuff or control like Tar Patch, Freezing Rain, Volcanic Gasses, etc.[*]Area knockback can group scattered foes more closely! A spread-out group can be flung into a wall by Gale, Shockwave, etc., and they'll be tightly piled against the wall for AoEs. It can be faster than waiting for them to shoot teir ranged attack, change weapons, and run over to the Tanker to cluster up.[*]Knockdown can't throw someone off a ledge. This can sometimes be handy if you are getting overwhelmed, but it's always hilarious.[/list]
Don't take away knockback because some players can't use it right and others can't mentally adjust to seeing it used. And don't say "But you can add a knockback enhancement to get it back!" unless you're going to spot me the slot to put it into. Why should my powers have (effectively) 5 usable slots instead of 6 to regain the capability they already had?
Teach the players who don't know how to use it. Kick the players who can't learn. Enjoy the tangible advantages properly used knockback give you and your team.
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This. Well said. I couldn't agree more.
The well-played storm defender shouldn't be handicapped by taking KB away just because the ADD 10-year-old energy blaster can't figure out (or care) how to position himself to blow the mobs against a wall instead of blowing them off the ledge.
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Knockback is only ever a burden if an enemy flies into the next mob and causes double aggro
just have the tanker Taunt them back otherwise
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Aggro does not work that way. The only time a mob knocked into another mob will draw additional aggro is if someone chases said mob down and pulls aggro by being near the second spawn.
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Or if the enemy that's knocked back is an anchor for a debuff toggle. I know I just love looking up to see a horde of +4 bosses charging at me because the Energy blaster hurled my Enervating Field anchor into a mob on the floor below.
[/ QUOTE ] It happens. Targets generally die so fast that I don't pay attention to which particular enemy has a toggle on it.
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I'm telling you, Rad gets no respect. 
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Don't take away knockback because some players can't use it right and others can't mentally adjust to seeing it used. And don't say "But you can add a knockback enhancement to get it back!" unless you're going to spot me the slot to put it into. Why should my powers have (effectively) 5 usable slots instead of 6 to regain the capability they already had?
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This.
Infatum on Virtueverse
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tremor takes 3 seconds to cast, and most of us dont bother to take the power at all
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I would love to see you make a poll for that. Seriously, I'd find it fascinating, regardless of how it's presented.
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I've never taken a poll, but I don't know anyone who builds for performance over concept that keeps it.
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Tremor is disliked?
[/ QUOTE ]Maybe by people that are trying to maximize their DPS, but Tremor is a great power.
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
On the Tremor Argument:
Have it, use it, love it.
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
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It happens. Targets generally die so fast that I don't pay attention to which particular enemy has a toggle on it.
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As a toggle debuff user, if this happens to me or if I just plain lose track of my toggle anchor, well... I just quietly detoggle that sucker and if a whole crowd shows up, I yell "Ambush!".
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HAH! That was one nice thing about the old Darkest Night, before it became "Darker than the blackest pit of Hell" more visibly dark, versus Rad's Christmas in Queens
Also one of the reasons I like Sonic's anchor toggle. If the anchor runs off, he only gets himself roasted. 
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On the Tremor Argument:
Have it, use it, love it.
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/sign!
Tremor is the only total-focus animation power I don't hate. The AoE and damage more then make up for the animation time. If it were a second or so faster animating, it'd be vastly superior to footstomp due to its (far) quicker recharge.
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Knockback works better than knockdown.
<ul type="square">[*]When foes "ragdoll" from knockback it takes them a lot longer to get back up. That's more mitigation.[*]Knockdown can't move a foe into a placed debuff or control like Tar Patch, Freezing Rain, Volcanic Gasses, etc.[*]Area knockback can group scattered foes more closely! A spread-out group can be flung into a wall by Gale, Shockwave, etc., and they'll be tightly piled against the wall for AoEs. It can be faster than waiting for them to shoot teir ranged attack, change weapons, and run over to the Tanker to cluster up.[*]Knockdown can't throw someone off a ledge. This can sometimes be handy if you are getting overwhelmed, but it's always hilarious.[/list]
Don't take away knockback because some players can't use it right and others can't mentally adjust to seeing it used. And don't say "But you can add a knockback enhancement to get it back!" unless you're going to spot me the slot to put it into. Why should my powers have (effectively) 5 usable slots instead of 6 to regain the capability they already had?
Teach the players who don't know how to use it. Kick the players who can't learn. Enjoy the tangible advantages properly used knockback give you and your team.
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This. Well said. I couldn't agree more.
The well-played storm defender shouldn't be handicapped by taking KB away just because the ADD 10-year-old energy blaster can't figure out (or care) how to position himself to blow the mobs against a wall instead of blowing them off the ledge.
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KB is almost the only thing in the game that takes actual player skill. Let's not remove it, k?
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
down with kb, up with tremor!
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tremor takes 3.4 seconds adjusted for arcanatime to fire
the brute thread about this was lost in the recent purge
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This is a useless clarification, all attacks must be "adjusted for arcanatime" so no need to specify. I don't tell family members, "I'll be home at 5pm, adjusted for daylight savings...."
As for KB, in issue 1, chasing [censored] around on my SS tanker was god damned annoying. Now with the ability to slot KB enh in attacks and decide what we want I wish everything was KD.
It has already been proven that the devs can make mutually exclusive attacks by preventing the combo of follow up and BU on widdows. And it has already been proven that you can add more than one power to be open at any given level with the new patron and epic pools that have 5 powers.
Why not combine those 2 methods and make a KB power for things like handclap for those that wish to keep it or you can pick a handclap that has KD instead.
Edit to add list of powers I would like to see with this option.
SS - Handclap
Claws - Shockwave
MA - Crane Kick, could be KB or Knock Up
Elec - Lightning Clap
Also it would be nice to see similar changes to some blast sets as well. For those with AoE knockback have them either go off at chest level for knockback or foot level for knock up. You really would not have to change the graphic or animation, just the discription.
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I don't like KB affects in any melee AT attacks. I think they should all be just low enough mag to do KD instead. If you like the KB affect you can always slot a KB IO in there and get that affect. Unfortunetly you can't slot anything to make the KB weaker and turn it into KD.
[/ QUOTE ]Touch my crane kick at your own risk.
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Originally Posted by Back Alley Brawler
Did you just use "casual gamer" and "purpled-out warshade" in the same sentence?
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I wouldn't mind if they changed all powers that did knockback to knockdown, except for Nova. That power only makes sense to have it.
I think at the absolute outer limit you might make a case for changing tanker/brute knockback powers to knockdown. Scrappers and stalkers can survive in the middle of the mix, but it's not like they depend on it quite the way tankers and brutes do. Certainly, it would be a bad idea to change the powers of the non-melee ATs to make things easier for the melee ATs, at the expense of making things harder for the non-melee ATs.
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I wouldn't mind if they changed all powers that did knockback to knockdown, except for Nova. That power only makes sense to have it.
[/ QUOTE ] I would. There is no reason to make a major change like that. Especially since it would alter so many peoples established characters, significantly.
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QR
I wouldn't mind if they changed all powers that did knockback to knockdown, except for Nova. That power only makes sense to have it.
[/ QUOTE ] I would. There is no reason to make a major change like that. Especially since it would alter so many peoples established characters, significantly.
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I disagree. From the way I see it, chaining knockdown is far better than chaining knockback.
For the life of me, I can't think of a single melee set capable of chaining knockback effects.
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I wouldn't mind if they changed all powers that did knockback to knockdown, except for Nova. That power only makes sense to have it.
[/ QUOTE ] I would. There is no reason to make a major change like that. Especially since it would alter so many peoples established characters, significantly.
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I disagree. From the way I see it, chaining knockdown is far better than chaining knockback.
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Your reasoning, good as it may be, is not a logically following response to the post you quoted.
KD being better to chain than KB has absolutely no bearing on the fact that it would be a major change to many, many existing characters.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
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tremor takes 3 seconds to cast, and most of us dont bother to take the power at all
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I would love to see you make a poll for that. Seriously, I'd find it fascinating, regardless of how it's presented.
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I definitely respeced out of it on my stone/elec brute.
[/ QUOTE ]I can't imagine going without it on my Ice/Stone tank.
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt