Scrapper v Brutes...beyond the damage

My goal is to roll a DM/SR Archtype. The question is which side. From what I have found on the forums, these particular powersets do about the same damage. That being stated, what or why would one choose a scrapper or brute to create. What pros and cons do either of these two AT's offer over one another. Having played the content on both sides, what type of intangibles are offered and who benefits from epic power pools more, etc.... Which direction should one take?

I have a DM/SR scrapper and brute and the one thing I noticed very quickly was the hit points of the brutes made those attacks that got through not hurt as much indivually.

Brute:
<ul type="square">[*]1- You get an excellent agro aura that scrappers lack.[*]2- You have more HP.[*]3- The skills are ordered better, unless you prefer Quickness sooner and a gaping hole to AoE protection.[*]4- You have a 90% resistance cap. This means that on a large team providing adequate buffs, you can hit 90% damage resistance. This happens quite often with a Sonics Corruptor and me being at 20% health due to an unlucky streak. [*]4- It's tough to beat Gloom/Dark Obliteration/Darkest Night from Ghost Widow. They are 3 of the top 5 epic powers available for and Scrapper or Brute-- and all in the same set.[/list]
Scrapper:
<ul type="square">[*]1- You can get Conserve Power.[/list]

Due to the brute's higher HP, it will get more out of SR's passive's scaling damage resistance.

I'd go w/brute for the taunt aura and higher hp.

On the flipside, it might have a significantly tougher road to hoe than a scrapper due to the nature of opponents.

Another + for Scrappers is a higher +dam modifier with Soul Drain, and the general "I don't need Fury for damage" that's usually thrown out as irrelevant.

But really, what you want to make depends on which side you want to play on currently.

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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.

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Originally Posted by Brillig It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.

A Scrapper moves very fast. A Tanker moves very slow. A Brute moves like a freight train, taking time to get up to speed, but then you can't stop it.

Your Brute is going to get more attention from his foes and be able to tank somewhat better, while the Scrapper will have more options to split up his foes and take them on one at a time. I think the advantages and disadvantages of each are about equal on each side, but the Scrapper it's not as easy to enumerate. (I think listing just one advantage to playing a Scrapper is a bit extreme. There's not going to be a lot that isn't largely a matter of opinion, though)

Personally, I like pairing SR with Stealth so I can get a sort of Stalker feel out of it. You're not really going to be a main tank, although you can keep an eye out for problems and take on runners or foes that come at your allies.

Scrappers are more like this, actually. Mentioning a couple of things brought up above.

<ul type="square">[*]1 - Damage is consistent regardless of how fast or slow you're moving and doesn't care what other players are doing (buffs and debuffs aside). Your damage won't suffer when you have to use Rest, you won't be competing with other Scrappers for Fury, and your damage growth doesn't suffer when someone hits the mob with a mass hold. You can pause to help allies, let someone else tank, and do so much more without having to worry about an orange bar going down.
[*]2 - Critical hits that sometimes do double damage, which on a Scrapper is very noticeable and can often be enough to take a Lt. out in one-shot with your heavier attacks. Without Build-up, Soul Drain, outside buffs and debuffs etc.
[*]3 - Higher damage mods on Soul Drain, which will make it more effective when a Scrapper uses it over a Brute or Tanker.
[*]4 - Conserve Power regardless of which secondary you use.
[*]5 - You can play at your own pace.
[*]6 - You get Quickness sooner, which lets you get a continuous attack chain sooner. The lack of AOE defense in exchange is a pain, but on the other hand, you're not expected to be holding the aggro.[/list]

If you have already chosen DM/SR, then perhaps you need to look slightly beyond just the powerset to answer your question. Yeah, pretty much a Brute and a Scrapper are going to be doing the same thing in PvP or in a cooperative zone (Architect, Vanguard, etc.). Where you are going to see the difference is in the normal game content.

If you go blueside, your Scrapper is going to be expected to be a "hero." Activities include stopping bank robberies, rescuing kidnap victims, stop drug deals, etc. etc. There is a lot of territory and story content that a lot of people never see because they're too busy farming their next character up to level 50 as quickly as they can. Even someone doing their missions properly need several characters worth of heroes before they've actually seen it all.

There is actually not a lot of story content or territory to cover redside if you choose a Brute. So pretty much you can farm to level 50 or your heart's content without missing a whole lot. Activities include robbing banks, tearing up the city, and just generally being a menace to all things NPC and targetable. There is enough "content" there to get you to 50 if you are in to the story elements. But you are pretty much expected to be a villain instead of reacting to them. If you would like to leave your morality at the door and just tear things up, you might be happier as a Brute.

Flipping a coin might work if you are still undecided.

Hm. With Going Rogue coming along, I was wondering if Tankers were going to go the way of the dodo in favor of Brutes, but now I'm wondering if it's Scrappers that will disappear...

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Scrappers are more like this, actually. Mentioning a couple of things brought up above.

<ul type="square">[*]1 - Damage is consistent regardless of how fast or slow you're moving and doesn't care what other players are doing (buffs and debuffs aside). Your damage won't suffer when you have to use Rest, you won't be competing with other Scrappers for Fury, and your damage growth doesn't suffer when someone hits the mob with a mass hold. You can pause to help allies, let someone else tank, and do so much more without having to worry about an orange bar going down.
[*]2 - Critical hits that sometimes do double damage, which on a Scrapper is very noticeable and can often be enough to take a Lt. out in one-shot with your heavier attacks. Without Build-up, Soul Drain, outside buffs and debuffs etc.
[*]3 - Higher damage mods on Soul Drain, which will make it more effective when a Scrapper uses it over a Brute or Tanker.
[*]4 - Conserve Power regardless of which secondary you use.
[*]5 - You can play at your own pace.
[*]6 - You get Quickness sooner, which lets you get a continuous attack chain sooner. The lack of AOE defense in exchange is a pain, but on the other hand, you're not expected to be holding the aggro.[/list]
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Another one I like is that Scrappers have weaker or entirely non-existant taunting and aggro control. If you're trying to be tank that can be an issue, but Scrappers are easier for enemies to miss. You can weave in and out of groups without attracting too much attention, killing as you please. Brutes have the higher HP because they attract a lot of attention. Scrappers may have slightly lower numbers, but they have less people beating on them in general.

My favorite though is the high base damage. I don't have to worry about building fury or that if I waited a few seconds my attack would be more worthwhile to use, or how much of a waste it is to use a power before I build any fury. I can leap right in and hit a foe with my strongest attack whenever I please.

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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

Brutes will never replace tankers or scrappers. All three have things going for them the others lack.

To SStingray: What are you talking about? As someone who is currently running every mission in the game on a single character, both hero side and villain, I can honestly say that you have more chance of missing content on villain side. Did you know that there are missions that exist on the mission list of EVERY contact in their level range, heroside? I counted four missions in the 25-30 range I had to do 5 times over.

Or the contact in IP: "I'm writing a story about the Council. Could you go collect some ifno for me? (Defeat 25 Council)", "I've got you a front page spot. Could I get some shots of you arresting criminals? (Defeat 25 Council)", "I just did a story on the crime rate here, and it's way upq Could you do something about it? (Defeat 25 Council)" - the examples are made up, but are basicaly what the contact offers.

Villainside, however, each contact has a story, even outside the arcs, and the missions are varied, and generally more interesting. There may be fewer missions overall, but there's less boring repetition too.

To the OP: The brute will see two huge advantages: Greater HP will make the hits that get through less worrisome, and the taunt aura will keep the whatever you're not focued on nearby for Soul Drain and Dark Consumption to feed off of.

Any other benefits one side or the other has is purely personal preference.

Brutes have an advantage when it comes to travel. Redside you can get unlimited jetpacks as soon as you can reach Grandville, so there's no need to ration temp travel powers. Combined with the lower general travel distances redside, /SR and other characters with Quickness-style movement enhancement do just fine without a travel power.

Lavitae, you are 100% right, quality over quantity...

Brute for the win, If you are playing an /SR then you are going to be hard to hit, with the taunting aura youll keep aggro and won't be affected by any hits tht come your way. With the brutes HP, any hits tht do make it past your defense won;t hurt as much.

I am trying to run a Spines/SR Stalker...I would kill for a power prolif so Spines/ can go to brutes.

Brutes will be tougher in the long run. Scrapper will on avg have better dmg. The are exceptions, like a fully buffed and enraged brute will out damage a scrapper sure, but being that pumped isn't the norm, at least, in my expearince. (I solo alot and pug for teams. not a huge villian comunity on my server.)

In all honesty, it doesn't matter. Brute or Scrapper, they'll kick ample butt. So, to decide, ask yourself, "do i want to be the hero of the story, or villian?" and roll accordingly.

On large teams that are moving along at a good pace, I have the hardest time keeping Fury high on my Brute - I feel almost like a...Tanker without the extra HPs and Defense

Oh, stop comparing Brute VS Scrapper!!!!


Man, Stalker has got so good now. Why don't people compare these 3 instead?

I would take Stalker &gt; Brute and Scrapper but I am weird.... with Shadow Meld, I have god-mode to take any alpha for the team at the start of every fight and if I am spine, my aoe damage + ball of lightning is nothing to joke about!

You're right. Stalkers are much better now, and I often see them going shoulder-to-shoulder with the scrappers and brutes. But the OP was about Dark Melee, and stalker DM loses Soul Drain, which is a selling point to the set for many.

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You're right. Stalkers are much better now, and I often see them going shoulder-to-shoulder with the scrappers and brutes. But the OP was about Dark Melee, and stalker DM loses Soul Drain, which is a selling point to the set for many.

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Yes, but instead it gets Build Up which has a shorter animation, doesn't require a tohit check (albeit one at with a bonus, having a 1.2x base accuracy), and doesn't break hidden status so you can still have a guaranteed critical on that first hit after using it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brillig It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.

Brutes have another benefit over scrappers with this combination. To my knowledge DoT abilities cannot crit and one of your early power moves is Shadow Maul which is a DoT. I know many (including myself) tend to ditch this move later on, but early game it's almost a requirement since there are so few attacks in the set.

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To my knowledge DoT abilities cannot crit

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Your knowledge is wrong. DoT powers can crit, but they only check once and for the sum of the power. When Shadow Maul crits, it does all of the damage for the entire power in a single burst. Individual increments of a DoT cannot proc, but all of the powers can and do. This is the same reason why Midnight Grasp crits are bigger than the initial hit: the crit accounts for the extra damage that is applied over time.

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To my knowledge DoT abilities cannot crit

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Your knowledge is wrong. DoT powers can crit, but they only check once and for the sum of the power. When Shadow Maul crits, it does all of the damage for the entire power in a single burst. Individual increments of a DoT cannot proc, but all of the powers can and do. This is the same reason why Midnight Grasp crits are bigger than the initial hit: the crit accounts for the extra damage that is applied over time.

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On the other hand, powers with bonus dots do not crit. For example, Whirling Sword or Fire Melee crits don't include dots (sans Incinerate).

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brutes level to SO's faster and easier.

If you like to play fast I'd roll a brute. If you like to afk a lot I'd play a scrapper.

That isn't to say either can't play the other way.

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You're right. Stalkers are much better now, and I often see them going shoulder-to-shoulder with the scrappers and brutes. But the OP was about Dark Melee, and stalker DM loses Soul Drain, which is a selling point to the set for many.

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Yes, but instead it gets Build Up which has a shorter animation, doesn't require a tohit check (albeit one at with a bonus, having a 1.2x base accuracy), and doesn't break hidden status so you can still have a guaranteed critical on that first hit after using it.

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Yeah and Midnight Grasp can critical for a lot of damage. When it criticals, the total damage appears first (rather than waiting for the dot to finish and then add the critical damage).

I've heard DM Stalker can produce a lot of ST damage.

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I've heard DM Stalker can produce a lot of ST damage.

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Absolutely. AoE severely lacking, but very high ST.
In many ways my DM/Nin and Elec/Nin play very differently. The former solos very well, but the latter is deadly on teams.