Scrapper v Brutes...beyond the damage

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You're right. Stalkers are much better now, and I often see them going shoulder-to-shoulder with the scrappers and brutes. But the OP was about Dark Melee, and stalker DM loses Soul Drain, which is a selling point to the set for many.

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Yes, but instead it gets Build Up which has a shorter animation, doesn't require a tohit check (albeit one at with a bonus, having a 1.2x base accuracy), and doesn't break hidden status so you can still have a guaranteed critical on that first hit after using it.

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Yeah and Midnight Grasp can critical for a lot of damage. When it criticals, the total damage appears first (rather than waiting for the dot to finish and then add the critical damage).

I've heard DM Stalker can produce a lot of ST damage.

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which brings up a good point. Who rolls DM for aoe output? So I think considering a DM stalker is a good idea.

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For teaming, Brutes provide a great basis for taking buffs. If you happen to get a kin on a team - Scrap vs Brute might still be close. If you happen to get 2 kins, then the Brute becomes the most destructive force in the game.

I hit my damage cap for the first time on a Brute in a recent Rikti ship raid, with all the AMs and Fulcrums it was something to behold.

I think you can have interesting debates about Tanks vs Brutes vs Scrapper. That is until teammate buffs enter the picture, then the Brute pulls ahead.

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For teaming, Brutes provide a great basis for taking buffs. If you happen to get a kin on a team - Scrap vs Brute might still be close. If you happen to get 2 kins, then the Brute becomes the most destructive force in the game.

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The first Fulcrum Shift puts the Scrapper way ahead, the second - if they're double-stacked and saturated - puts the Brute back to about even, and they pull ahead as they go over around +650% damage without counting criticals (+710% once you figure in criticals over time) on the way to the +750% cap.

While it can happen, I generally don't count on having perma-double-stacked Fulcrum Shifts and assume that +dam buffs are going to help the Scrapper more. But yes, with the right teammates, Brutes are downright insane (Tanker hp/resistance at those caps, and slightly higher damage than Scrappers when damage is capped).

For a general case, though, the higher base damage on Scrappers makes them much better for +damage buffs until you hit the extreme levels where everyone else has been capped already. The higher hit point and resistance caps for Brutes makes them better for survivability buffs.

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One thing I haven't noticed mentioned is that Brutes care a lot about fury. All their damage comes from +DMG buffs, meaning unless you have 2+ kins on the team, you need fury to maintain a good damage boost. There are at least two huge situations that can destroy your fury gain.

The first is not being the "lead" Brute. Or having a Tank along that's grabbing aggro. If you aren't getting attacked due to aggro control, you aren't getting fury, and you're lacking a lot of damage. If you're heading the pack and getting attacked, you'll have good fury. If you aren't, you won't. Try being on a team with 3 or more Brutes. One of those Brutes is going to have all the focus and have high fury. The other ones will have little to none.

The other is mez. Locked down enemies won't attack and you won't build fury. Brutes and Doms (and Controllers) don't get along. I always thought redside was a little silly because the ATs don't mesh as well as heroside because they can interfere with eachother.

A lot of people here are posting as if Brutes outdamage Scrappers easily and all the time. While it's true they can outdamage them in certain situations (usually involving a kin), it's just not a reliable circumstance. I like both Brutes and Scrappers, and have 50s of each. Scrappers are, in my experience, just better for damage unless you have along a couple kins and are heading the pack.

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The only thing better about Scrappers is that they have Claws, Katana, and Broadsword. Other than that Brutes do just as much damage and have more survivability. I say role a Brute and take your time leveling him nice and slow. By the time you hit 50 GR will be out and you can play either side.

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The only thing better about Scrappers is that they have Claws, Katana, and Broadsword.

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And that they have a higher damage modifier, don't need to rely on their inherent or buffs to do decent damage, self buffs from their powers are higher compared to Brutes, and you can play at your own pace without worrying about your damage dropping.

It seems you missed a lot of points besides that Scrappers have different powersets compared to Brutes.

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If you play with constant scrapperlock, your fury is always full anyways and you do just as much damage. Brutes pwn Scrappers.

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If you say so.

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I do.

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personally i enjoy my mg/gloom/smite/sl rotation. doesnt require as much recharge as having only mg/smite/sl and building a rotation on a scrapper.

however the better io's are far more expensive red side than blue. it's a give and take.

as for redside story content - bah. most of it is pretty darn good. it's also substantially harder. we have the hardest av fights

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If you play with constant scrapperlock, your fury is always full anyways and you do just as much damage. Brutes pwn Scrappers.

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And then your health and/or endurance runs out and you have to hit rest...

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If you play with constant scrapperlock, your fury is always full anyways and you do just as much damage. Brutes pwn Scrappers.

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And then your health and/or endurance runs out and you have to hit rest...

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Not me. Maybe your not doing it right.

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It depends on your power sets and slotting. A fully IOed out Brute, for example, will more than likely have many less endurance and damage issues than a SOed Brute. Or a DOed Brute. Or TOed Brute. And to say you never have issues with too much damage or endurance drain to force you to stop wouldn't be accurate, unless you're beating on stupid easy foes or always have a pocket support toon. And if we're counting support toons, well, the Scrapper will be coming out at full smoke with the limitless health and endurance and stay at full smoke the entire mission, whereas the Brute still has to build and fight for their damage.

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If you play with constant scrapperlock, your fury is always full anyways and you do just as much damage. Brutes pwn Scrappers.

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And then your health and/or endurance runs out and you have to hit rest...

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Not me. Maybe your not doing it right.

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The thing is, there are variables and factors involved. It's not as simple as "just don't stop attacking and Brutes are better in every way."

Pumped to the damage cap, do Brutes outdamage Scrappers? Yes.

On a team, lead tank, saturated with full fury and supplied a steady stream of enemies to attack? Probably.

Soloing? Maybe.

The problem is that fury falls fast, and there are a ton of situations where fury will drop. Besides the things I mentioned above about not having aggro focus and enemies being mezzed, your fury drops every time your phone rings, or you have to visit the bathroom. It zeroes out every time you hit a dead end and backtrack. Every time you go up an elevator, or zone into a map, or pause for buffs. Every time you hit your strongest attack it's probably going to inflict a status which will slow down your fury gain.

Now, I love Brutes. I have more high level Brutes (2 50s) than any other class, but I love Scrappers too. It's kind of frustrating to see people say that Brutes are just flat out better than Scrappers. They're not. They fluctuate, and they can be better and they can be worse. Depending on your team make-up, Brutes can be great. But not every team is full of kins, not every team will let you be the alpha so you max out fury, not every team will lack mezzes so that you can actually gain fury, and not every mission is designed so that you fight a stream of enemies.

Scrappers have their role. It's surviving while dealing heavy but consistent damage no matter the situation or the outside buffs available. If Brutes were just plain BETTER than Scrappers in every way, wouldn't that be admitting that Brutes need to be nerfed, or Scrappers need to be buffed? I don't think that's the case. If a Brute was statistically better in every possible scenario than a Scrapper, there would literally be no point to Scrappers (especially after CoR). But there are plenty of situations and scenarios where Scrappers are superior.

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I personally like Scrappers more. They get funner and cooler looking power sets.

I like being able to rip someones head off right at the start at the mission, go make a sammich, then come back and tear someones spleen out through their nose without having to worry about Fury.

I like Brutes, but I hate being on a leash.

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While not totally reliable, the critical hits scrappers often get can seriously devastate an opponent and that, at any moment, even in the first engagement when entering mission. There is no waiting and need for Fury build up. No need to rush the enemy. You just come right next to a lieutenant, you click Midnight Grasp and BANG! Critical Hit! He's dead already or the DoT left will finish him.

Tankers, Brutes, Scrappers or Stalkers with DM. I just like them all. They all have their place in the game.

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I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

Voltaire

Well, even though I was just being a bit ornery before, I do like Brutes better. I use to play alot of scrappers also, but when Dual Blades came out it all changed for me. I rolled a DB/WP Scrapper, and a DB/WP Brute. This gave me a direct comparison to make a judgement.

The journey from 1-50 wasn't all that different. I definetly felt the scrapper had less survivabilty, but most of CoH is easier anyways. The only time it really stuck out was in RWZ and Cimerao. The Scrapper really didn't feel like it killed things any faster either. I think the whole "being on a leash" building fury thing is way over exagerated. My fury is usually full by the end of the first mob and stays close to full the entire mission. Could just be my play style, but I don't watch the fury bar at all. I don't think about it, I just start killing everything in sight and don't stop moving at 100mph till nothing is left moving. All in all, they played very similar but I prefered the brute.

Here's where they big difference appeared. I decided to make these two guys my first big expensive builds. They were the same DB/WP and had very similair names, I thought they could be the same guy, but I'd have a good version and bad version. Anyways, long story short...I spent over a billion Inf on both of these guys. The brute became my main, and I rarely touch the scrapper. My brute can tank just about anything now, and can solo just about anything including AVs. My brute laughs at the RWZ challenge and charges into anything without worry. My Scrapper still gets pwnd on the RWZ challenge. Even though they are built exactly the same, the Scrapper just doesn't feel "Elite" after playing the brute version. He does a little more damage up front, but can't survive long enough to take out the AVs I solo with my Brute.

This is just my experience and really it's just a matter of opinion. All I know is when Brutes have Katana, Claws, and Broadsword proliferated, and you can switch sides thru Going Rogue....I'll never play a Scrapper again.

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To the OP, most of what your gonna get here is honestly just player bias. The biggest difference between the 2 AT's is just that player opinion. Some people love brutes others love scrappers. This will skew their view of those classes. Some people have broken down the mathmatics already.

Brutes have more HP. They will survive fights longer. Also have a better chance of surviving high damage spikes.

Scrappers do more damage up front. They can end fights quicker.

Brutes use quicker activating attacks to build bury. Ever see a scrapper use or even slot brawl??

Some sets build fury faster then others. Some attacks are counter productive to building fury.

There are lots of factors to consider. Ever run on a team with more then 1 scrapper? More then 1 brute?

At the end of the day its the same effect. Everything else is just perception and play style. Each one also has certain "Expected Behavior" from most people on your team. If your the only brute, people may expect you to taunt, herd etc. If your the only scrapper people expect you to beat stuff.

It really is just a matter of your play style and what you want. Scrapper are the more even tiered fighter. Were brutes are the roller coaster.

If you want a rush then brutes are the choice. Once you pick up steam and keep it running your a monster. The game is keeping that train on the tracks. If you want to herd big honking mobs this is it.

If you want to be able to end fights quickly from the start, scrapper is your choice. With crits, you can end fights insanely fast.

Neither is technically better or has more perks. They just have perks in different areas.

YMMV.

As for your question. THe stats look like this.

Shadow Punch: Brute- 35 Damage, Scrapper- 57.8
Smite Brute- 55.1 Damage, Scrapper- 90.8
Shadow Maul Brute- 89.9 Damage, Scrapper- 148.4
Siphon Life Brute- 81.7 Damage, Scrapper- 134.9
Midnight Grasp Brute- 115.1 Damage, Scrapper- 189.9

Those are the values from Mids. Bearing in mind that the brute damage is without fury. So at the start a scrapper clearly does a good chunk more damage. Once fury is generated those gaps close and then start to move in favor of the brute.

Someone around here did a very nice spread sheet comparing all Melee AT damages. It even factored in different levels of fury.

Hope this helps.

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It was BillZ that did the spreadsheet. I believe it's in the scrapper forum.

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Willpower has more passive regen than Regen does. Who thought that was a good idea?

Can we get a fix for Energy Melee instead of more new sets?

I added links to my sig.

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eh..if brutes are so hot why are there still far more people playing scrappers?

lets not forget that many people do not like the fury system.

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eh..if brutes are so hot why are there still far more people playing scrappers?

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Because there are far more people playing blueside than redside maybe?

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eh..if brutes are so hot why are there still far more people playing scrappers?

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Because there are far more people playing blueside than redside maybe?

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yes, and why is that?

i find redside to be more efficiently laid out especially at the lower levels before a travel power. if the redside at's are superior, why arent people playing them?

again, a lot of people dislike the fury mechanic. you have to have a brute build that doesnt ever have to stop to rest to take full advantage of the mechanic. scrappers can take their time - do missions while watching tv.

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yes, and why is that?

i find redside to be more efficiently laid out especially at the lower levels before a travel power. if the redside at's are superior, why arent people playing them?

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Most people prefer the blueside community, prefer the larger population, prefer the blueside content, prefer to play a hero...

It also doesn't help that most people don't pay attention to numbers whatsoever or are incapable of actually comparing the two ATs easily. Brutes and Scrappers compete against each other very little in the game (re: ITF and RWZ). That's not enough for most people to actually notice any discrepancy.

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eh..if brutes are so hot why are there still far more people playing scrappers?

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Because there are far more people playing blueside than redside maybe?

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yes, and why is that?

i find redside to be more efficiently laid out especially at the lower levels before a travel power. if the redside at's are superior, why arent people playing them?

again, a lot of people dislike the fury mechanic. you have to have a brute build that doesnt ever have to stop to rest to take full advantage of the mechanic. scrappers can take their time - do missions while watching tv.

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I personally love the mechanics of fury. My issue to is with the lower population redside. I don't think it's the fault of one game mechanic on one AT though. Maybe its the lesser number of Tfs/Sfs. Maybe it's the difference in merit rewards in mission arcs.
As far as people saying it's a chore to get and keep fury? It takes, what, one mob to get your fury around 70%? I don't think of it as a chore, I think of it as a drug. Brb, I'm off to make a db/wp brute.

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Willpower has more passive regen than Regen does. Who thought that was a good idea?

Can we get a fix for Energy Melee instead of more new sets?