Misuse of the word "Healer"

(QR) Well, as mentioned, a lot of players have a traditional Tank/Heal/DPS mindset - I actually saw a team leader advertise in broadcast like that yesterday:- level 25 team LFM NEED TANK/DPS/HEAL! - yes, with the caps.

I was on an appropriate level tank at the time, and free. But I didn't respond because I was too busy facepalming. My fears were confirmed a few minutes later, when the broadcast message changed to 'level 25 team LFM need HEALER HEALER HEALER'. Yes, he said it thrice. Maybe he wanted three healers. God only knows.

That said, a lot of folks use 'healer' as a catch-all. Folks don't always expect you to heal as such, just do...whatever magical support-type stuff it is that you do. It's just imprecise language, sometimes. Players want something to prop 'em up, it's easier to say they need a 'healer' than anything else.

I play a kin, dark, rad and emp. I used to join teams that requested 'healers' in broadcast, or sent me tells asking if I was one.

Most of the time it really didn't matter what they called me or what they thought I was doing...so long as folks stayed upright, everyone was happy.

But...I have had a few terrible experiences with folks who expected healing healing, and can't understand that a Kinetics user has trouble throwing a Transfusion when you're waaaaaay over there, or that a Dark can't rez with no enemies in range. That sorta thing.

Note, I say can't. That's not the same as don't. If a player's new, or isn't familiar with the powerset, that's fine. I usually take the time to explain - as briefly as I can - how my powers work. But if I tell you that I need an enemy nearby to heal you or that my heal needs a to-hit check...and you continue to insist that your death is my fault, then, well, enh.

This is why I no longer join teams that use the phrase 'healer'. If they mention the word while recruiting, I stay far away. I mean, intellectually I know it probably won't be a big deal, but when that word's in play, there's a chance I'm gonna have to deal with funky expectations. Or be made the scapegoat if the team goes wahoonie-shaped. So I don't join. It's not worth the potential headache.

Many CoH players are way too sensitive about the 'healer' label. It's not that big a deal. But that said... if you've been on the wrong end of it a few times, it's still darn annoying.

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@Acyl

VIRTUE
Blue: Realpolitik, Leading Lady, Glass Lass, Superball, Alec Kazam
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Bio, take it from my FF defender. You are flat out wrong. With the exception of psy attacks that bypass force-fields entirely, the number of times anybody on my team takes more damage than they can sustain without an outside heal/regen buff do not warrant a power selection.

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That may be true for 90% of the content, but you cannot run a STF/LRSF w/ FF alone. You cannot run a MA mission w/ lvl 54 enemies w/ FF alone. I know I'm picking on FF here, but there aren't many sets that are *only* buff/debuff w/ no heal whatsoever. I can only think of: FF, Sonic, TA, Cold Dom. Even traps has a +regen buff, and storm has a heal-other.

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I ran a STF with just a Son on my WP tanker...

yep, no heals.

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No

Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo

I think you underestimate our fools, sir.

Why /duel is a bad idea

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But...I have had a few terrible experiences with folks who expected healing healing, and can't understand that a Kinetics user has trouble throwing a Transfusion when you're waaaaaay over there, or that a Dark can't rez with no enemies in range. That sorta thing.


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Clearly it is your fault for not having infinite range.

I know your pain. I've had the "OMG, why didn't yoo buff meh!?" from people halfway across the bloody map. Or when I stand in the middle of everything with my clearly visable giant bubble, and some moron blames me for coving the team instead of them exclusively.

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The off-beat space pirate...Capt. Stormrider (50+3 Elec/Storm Science Corruptor)
The mysterious Djinn...Emerald Dervish (50+1 DB/DA Magic Stalker)
The psychotic inventor...Dollmaster (50 Bot/FF Tech Mastermind)

Virtue Forever.

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Bio, take it from my FF defender. You are flat out wrong. With the exception of psy attacks that bypass force-fields entirely, the number of times anybody on my team takes more damage than they can sustain without an outside heal/regen buff do not warrant a power selection.

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That may be true for 90% of the content, but you cannot run a STF/LRSF w/ FF alone. You cannot run a MA mission w/ lvl 54 enemies w/ FF alone. I know I'm picking on FF here, but there aren't many sets that are *only* buff/debuff w/ no heal whatsoever. I can only think of: FF, Sonic, TA, Cold Dom. Even traps has a +regen buff, and storm has a heal-other.

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I dunno what kind of players you hang out with, but I always try to saturate the team with VEATs. Once we have about 3, the rest of the team has soft-capped DEF all the time and it doesn't matter who else we invite. In environments like that, Tanks and Brutes have enough HP + (RES/regen/misc mitigation) that they don't need outside sources to heal them. With everyone getting hit the minimum amount of time, it can go pretty smooth.

You underestimate what +DEF can do. Teams with enough forcefield or VEATs keeping everyone over the cap are quite strong. Add in +RES buffs and enemy debuffs and you can cruise right over content. I've done both LGTFs and ITFs without any heals. With the right buffs and good tanks, LRSF would be doable too. WP with soft capped DEF = monsterous.

I've personally done Snake farms fighting exclusively mobs of 17 +2 bosses at a time spamming toxic damage with my Brute with only FF to back me up, and done fine. And that was just on a Shield character, so all I had to fall back on was some bonus HP and modest RES with a few regen buffs.

1000 incoming DPS cut down to 8% due to high level foes hitting through high defense is just 80 DPS. Cut that in half from 50% RES or so, reduce it a bit from enemy debuffs, or throw that damage on a tank. Why do you need healing now?

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Healing is highly overrated by half the game and highly overrated by the other.

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I don't think it's quite a 50% spl...wait a second!

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Healing is highly overrated by half the game and highly overrated by the other. The thing is that unless the ones taking the damage has self-heals or extreme regeneration, healing will help you more than anything. But if they do have that, healing is mostly useless and buffs would help you more than anything. There's two parts of survivability, mitigation (defense, resistance, crowd control) and recovery (healing and regeneration). The more you have of one, the better the other gets.

A team with a good willpower/fire/dark tanker and a FF will never miss a healer, I promise you that. The same cannot be said if the Tanker is SD/Ice/Invuln, who wouldn't even be helped by the FF.

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Actually when I'm playing my Inv/Stone tanker I really could care less about heals for myself; if I start getting more damage than my def and res can handle, which doesn't happen very often even on a STF, then Dull Pain is available. Lord Recluse buffed by his towers is the only thing I've run across where that wasn't enough; and for that situation I simply fall back on my Insp. tray. The last two STF's I've tanked have had no ranged heals available... which is perfectly ok, I've things under control out of my own resources.

When I'm tanking with my Invuln what I look for in a team is:
First, debuffs. Gobs and gobs of debuffs! We can never have too much.
Second, damage, preferably AOE damage and lots of it.
Third, buffs like AM, SB, FF/Sonic and the like
Heals as such don't really enter into the picture although by getting the debuffs and buffs we'll probably have some form of it available. If I'm doing my job then the team shouldn't need heals unless someone does something stupid.

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COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes

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Indeed.

And as for SStingrays comment:
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Healing is an important part of what defenders can do.

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Umm... No. I see the one, single power in my kit bag that heals, as being the least important ability that my Kin has.

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Holy misquote Batman! It doesn't sound like you really read what I said at all. If healing wasn't important, there wouldn't be teams asking for healers to begin with.

I'll let you in on a secret, then. Even though I find it hard to really get by without some form of healing, I have never actually bothered to slot Radiation Infection, or O2 beyond the default 1 it comes with. The reason I have healing at all is because of a little mechanic in the game called "the Streakbreaker."

For both players and NPCs, the game actually forces an attack to auto-hit occasionally. That means true 95% damage mitigation isn't really possible unless you combine a resistant tank (Stone Armor or Invulnerability, probably) with a resistance defender (Sonic). 75% resistant is about the cap that anyone else can get to. Defense can get better depending on who you are picking on. Most even level critters have about a 50% chance of hitting, so with about 20% defense coming out of Deflection shield, 15% defense coming out of Dispersion Bubble, and 5% from your choice of maneuvers, combat jumping, hover, or weave, then most even level NPCs have about a 90% chance of actually missing you and your teammates. But the catch here is that enemies at higher levels get bonuses to their to-hit (and give penalties to your to-hit) for each level they are higher than you. If the idiot in charge has his difficulty set on "invincible," than even the minions start showing a 60-65% to-hit chance and the purple bosses are as accurate as players, at 75% chance to hit. Damage mitigation from defense goes down to about 65% at worst. Still, it is considerably better than nothing.

One thing I have never seen in any build posted ever is the Rest power 3-slotted for recharge. For that matter, most people take Health on their way to Stamina, but how many people actually 3-slot it for healing? Seriously, any kind of healing power, even if it has never been slotted, is incredibly helpful in shortening the downtime between battles and keeping things running smoothly. Mostly because the tankers and blasters to seldom think about it in their power picks and slotting strategies.

So yes, healing is important. It just isn't as all-important as people make it out to be. City of Heroes is a game where an ounce of prevention really is (at least supposed to be) worth a pound of cure.

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If healing wasn't important, there wouldn't be teams asking for healers to begin with.

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Assuming all teams recruit based on a solid knowledge of this game's mechanics. On the contrary, it's believed that many teams recruit based on other game's mechanics. It's also believed that some people never really learn how to play this game, continuing to play it like it's some other MMORPG. Short version: healing is important in other MMORPGs, but is it here? -- we can't tell just from the actions of newbies and perma-newbies.

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For both players and NPCs, the game actually forces an attack to auto-hit occasionally. That means true 95% damage mitigation isn't really possible...

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You included defense buffs and resistance buffs, but you forgot to account for debuffs and controls. Recharge debuffs, tohit debuffs, and hard and soft mezzes can get complete mitigation (enough to turn base regen into immortality) with no buffs or tanks at all.

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For both players and NPCs, the game actually forces an attack to auto-hit occasionally. That means true 95% damage mitigation isn't really possible

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Yes it is. Streakbreaker isn't just random, it has a system. If you have 95% hit rate on something you can't miss more than once. But if you have 5% hit rate on something, you'd have to miss literally a hundred times before streakbreaker picks up and forces a hit -- at which point they're actually doing BETTER than 95% mitigation because 95% would mean every 20 attacks lands.

Streakbreaker only interferes in really abnormal situations, like when you have 95% hit rate on something but dice hate you and you'd miss 3 times in a row. Normally that kind of stuff is really obnoxious and annoying. Thus, streakbreaker.

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Every heal is sacred~,
Every heal is great~,
And if a heal is wasted~,
Team leader gets quite irate!

...This has absolutely nothing to do with the thread in question, but somehow, it felt necessary. As to my personal opinion on the matter: I'll take a good defender over a mediocre healer any day of the week, because I can at least count on the former to have my back far more often then the latter.

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I team with 3 other people regularly. None of us are "healers". Atm, we have 2 def, 1 troller(me), and 1 blaster. We are running +3's and haven't died yet. Currently levels 12-15.

Heals are nice to have on a team, yes. But needed? No.

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If people weren't so deluded into thinking a healer is needed to survive in this game, then we wouldn't have this problem. A good stormy, with or without O2 Boost, far outperforms an average empath.

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this pretty much sums it up.

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And a good empath far out performs an average stormy.

Healing is definitley not required. Some people prefer different powers but I would figure the majority of people broadcasting for healers aren't aware that all defenders primaries are capable.

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If people weren't so deluded into thinking a healer is needed to survive in this game, then we wouldn't have this problem. A good stormy, with or without O2 Boost, far outperforms an average empath.

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this pretty much sums it up.

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And a good empath far out performs an average stormy.

Healing is definitley not required. Some people prefer different powers but I would figure the majority of people broadcasting for healers aren't aware that all defenders primaries are capable.

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Good Empaths do far less healing than buffing. At least that's been my experience when teaming with good Empaths. i've been on teams with mediocre to bad Empaths that quit because the buffs and debuffs from other team members made healing largely unneeded beyond patching up minor damage. Many of them had taken the Medicine pool in place of non-healing powers like Fortitude, Adrenaline Boost and Clear Mind. Others has some of those powers but would only use them after repeated requests.

i've also teamed with good Empaths who would toss Clear Mind on debuffers when fighting mezzing opponents, throw Fortitude on any teammate who tended to receive extra aggro and generally supported the team by buffing those who needed it and tossing out a heal when required. They didn't sulk and eventually quit when they had no reason to generate green numbers, instead they helped turn the team into a juggernaut.

Empathy in the hands of a good player is not primarily a healing set by the mid levels.

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Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...

I'm a bit biased, having played empathy quite a bit on both Defenders and Controllers, but healing is definitely the weakest thing a support character brings to a team in CoX.

Why?

Lots of reasons people already discussed, but the biggest one is that it doesn't stack.

+DEF? Goes up to the cap, at which point you don't really need more anyway. Same for +RES. Ditto for debuffs; once enemies can't hit, can't damage, and attack at half their normal speed, you don't really need much more.

Overhealing is a complete waste, and when bosses are hitting squishies for more than half their health in a single hit, you can't keep up. Reactive defenses are far weaker than active ones; so-called "healers" can't actually keep someone up, due to lag, recharge issues, and so forth.

So in summary, a "pure healer" (not necessarily an empath, mind you)"
1) Cannot reliably keep a single target alive under high stress without other buffs/debuffs
2) Is significantly more vulnerable to -recharge than buff/debuffers
3) Is not a force multiplier, like other defenders, as overhealing serves no purpose
4) Fails to offer any protection against non-damage effects: debuffs, mezzing, and End Drain

I've played a lot of defenders/corrs/controllers/MMs. I know the support sets, and trust me when I say, an Empath with all three heals is wasting a power, probably wasting two. Rez powers are usually a waste as well. It's all about the buffs. Fortitude, Clear Mind, RA, AB. That's what Empathy is all about.

The devs know it, obviously. You get your weaker powers earlier on, and they decided all those heals were weaker powers.

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That's kind of an interesting point.

You don't really see too many heals beyond Tier 3 that aren't in a Defense set.

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As a Rad/ Defender, I've always seen my heal as more of a safety net than a primary source of mitigation. It's something to be used when my debuffs and any outside buffing/debuff/defenses/controls allow damage to get through. Someone gets hurt, I pop Radiant Aura when the opportunity arises and then continue doing my primary job. It's nothing but just another tool and not always the end-all one. And if things really go badly for some reason or another and a teammate actually dies, it's nice to be able to bring them right back into the fight (after making their corpse explode, of course) with a resurrection ability. Sure, a rez is a highly situational power that you, ideally, never want to have to use. But, a situational power is very handy to have when said situation comes up. A rez and any other post-death powers can and have stopped the death from cascading into a team wipe.

Now, I'll admit there's times where healing is one of the more viable solutions to deal with incoming attacks. For example, I plan to duo an ITF with my SR Scrapper. Problem with SR on the ITF is one of Rommy's Nictus has an auto-hit power, making my soft-capped defenses moot. My friend is going to bring an Empath because we suspect that she should be able to keep me alive through the auto-hit barrage with her heals. As beastly as my Scrapper is, he can only take three or four of those hits before dropping, assuming no other damage is landing. But, of course, I'm also bringing along an Empath for other reasons. I would have also taken a Sonic and a Thermal as well, but I don't know anyone with a high level of either set.

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If people weren't so deluded into thinking a healer is needed to survive in this game, then we wouldn't have this problem. A good stormy, with or without O2 Boost, far outperforms an average empath.

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this pretty much sums it up.

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And a good empath far out performs an average stormy.

Healing is definitley not required. Some people prefer different powers but I would figure the majority of people broadcasting for healers aren't aware that all defenders primaries are capable.

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Good Empaths do far less healing than buffing. At least that's been my experience when teaming with good Empaths. i've been on teams with mediocre to bad Empaths that quit because the buffs and debuffs from other team members made healing largely unneeded beyond patching up minor damage. Many of them had taken the Medicine pool in place of non-healing powers like Fortitude, Adrenaline Boost and Clear Mind. Others has some of those powers but would only use them after repeated requests.

i've also teamed with good Empaths who would toss Clear Mind on debuffers when fighting mezzing opponents, throw Fortitude on any teammate who tended to receive extra aggro and generally supported the team by buffing those who needed it and tossing out a heal when required. They didn't sulk and eventually quit when they had no reason to generate green numbers, instead they helped turn the team into a juggernaut.

Empathy in the hands of a good player is not primarily a healing set by the mid levels.

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Empathy is a set that has heals as well as the ras and fort and ab and even res!. The team compostion will dictate the amount of heals that will get thrown around along with the particpation of the person playing the empathy set.

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That's kind of an interesting point.

You don't really see too many heals beyond Tier 3 that aren't in a Defense set.

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How many ATs don't use their Tier 1,2 & 3 powers at level 50?

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For both players and NPCs, the game actually forces an attack to auto-hit occasionally. That means true 95% damage mitigation isn't really possible

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Yes it is. Streakbreaker isn't just random, it has a system.

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Thank you for pointing me to that nice little article. After a couple years absence and being lured back only by Architect, I had been having a really hard time finding some of my old data sources. It definitely looks like I don't have to worry about the actual Streakbreaker code. Just the soft and hard caps. So 90% damage mitigation from defense alone is at least possible. (5% low-end capped to-hit * up to 1.5 accuracy mod for purple targets * 1.3 accuracy for boss types = 9.75% to hit. Or maybe just 9% if those accuracy mods add instead of multiply.)

That's not quite convincing me to drop Radiant Aura from my build just yet, though. Getting that level of defense is going to be tricky for anybody but a force-field defender, multiple defenders, or a defender buffing a tanker or scrapper (or substitute corrupter, mastermind, controller, or brute as appropriate if you prefer.) Even then, having 1 out of 10 attacks hit can still hurt.

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"We need a Support."

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Support can be healing, buff, debuffs, controlling and a mix of everything.

When I play my stalker with my brother's stalker, we need to go with SoA because of their team defense. If the team gets too big without any support, we'll find some corruptors or MMs.

I sometimes find a Dominator but ever since that Farming Madness period, I haven't seen a good high-lvl dominator for a very long time. Most of the Doms I've teamed with don't know !@#$ about their ATs.


My logic goes like this. If you are resistance based Brute/Tanker, healing can quite beneficial (if that person actually heals you in time). If you are squishies, defense buffs are better for survival.

PS: I would take a good /dark over /empathy any day, any time, any minute.

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What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.

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For both players and NPCs, the game actually forces an attack to auto-hit occasionally. That means true 95% damage mitigation isn't really possible

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Yes it is. Streakbreaker isn't just random, it has a system.

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Thank you for pointing me to that nice little article. After a couple years absence and being lured back only by Architect, I had been having a really hard time finding some of my old data sources. It definitely looks like I don't have to worry about the actual Streakbreaker code. Just the soft and hard caps. So 90% damage mitigation from defense alone is at least possible. (5% low-end capped to-hit * up to 1.5 accuracy mod for purple targets * 1.3 accuracy for boss types = 9.75% to hit. Or maybe just 9% if those accuracy mods add instead of multiply.)

That's not quite convincing me to drop Radiant Aura from my build just yet, though. Getting that level of defense is going to be tricky for anybody but a force-field defender, multiple defenders, or a defender buffing a tanker or scrapper (or substitute corrupter, mastermind, controller, or brute as appropriate if you prefer.) Even then, having 1 out of 10 attacks hit can still hurt.

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I wouldn't drop Radiant Aura, or any heal for that matter.

Heals, as I see them, are the last line of defense. They're the last resort. Relying on them as the primary means of mitigation is a really bad idea. They aren't designed for that. They have long recharges (compared to other games where they recharge in 1-2 seconds).

The most DEF can do for you is 95%. The most RES can do for you is 90% (though usually more like 75%). Both of those can and will fail occasionally. Buffs drop, people wander too far, Unstoppable crashes, AV hits a squishy. That's when heals patch you up.

I like having some heals on the team. I don't like having to rely on the heals as a primary means of mitigation, though. A team can run with nice buffs/debuffs and no heals. It's just a little smoother if there's a heal or two.

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My two cents?

Empaths are the toons that make the game fun for "n00bs" who aren't as good (or experienced) at the game as all you *lol-uber* players out there.

I've got an empath, and I like to log it on anytime some of my good friend's kids want to log on and play the game. Rather than them having a bad experience by joining a team comprised of people who expect you to have the "ultimate perfect build" and know what to do in EVERY situation in the game, I allow them to log on with whatever character they want (or make a new one just for fun), and I'll have them exemp my empath down, and I'll keep them alive for as long as they want to play.

But, you're right.

"Healers" shouldn't be in the game.

They're not needed.

"The One"

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76 characters and Twenty-four 50s later, I still love this game.
AlienOne's Human-Form Warshade Guide (Old guide+New guide = 12,000+ views!)

IMO an Empath isn't primarily a healer anyway, unless you're not playing it very well, though at the lowest levels you don't have many other options. Even so, at the low levels sets like Radiation Emission and Dark Miasma (to name a couple examples) can keep inexperienced teammates up and going as easily as an Empath. My Rad/Dark when starting out was soloing Hollows spawns of 8 or more easily, and was even better on teams.

Anyway, i'm hardly a *lol-uber* player. i've seen some, and i'm nowhere near that good. i've never soloed a GM on one of my Defenders or Controllers, nor have i beaten the RWZ challenge on one of my Scrappers. (Admittedly i haven't tried, either.)

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Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...

Healers aren't necessary, but when someone in a forum designed for exchange of information about the game incorrectly states that healers are critical in the game's most difficult content, pointing out the mistake is the sign of a snob? I'm not sure I follow your reasoning.

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Empaths are the toons that make the game fun for "n00bs"...

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Like Storm can't do that?

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