Misuse of the word "Healer"
By
Acyl,
Posted on: 2009-05-15 19:43 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Defenders are not the "Priest, Shaman, Medic, etc" of City of Heroes. Get over it.
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Are you serious?, So when you see an emp AT or a Thermal, you dont see the similarities in both priest and Shaman like abilities?. Heal, team bufff, aoe heal, revive, etc. Now your just delusional or in denial. I'm guessing you never played a Shaman in not just WoW but in many other MMO's, even in D&D the Shaman healed...Do some research before you go posting just to post.
Where are these ego's coming from? no one cared what defenders where called 4 yrs ago, I smell some elitist players hitting CoH, but I digress, you dont like being called a healer then sour grapes for you friend, if your bothered by an IN GAME phrase then there really is no helping you. My best advice?...go out breath some fresh air, because if a phrase in an MMO bothers you that much I say you failed at life, life has way harder decisions than arguing over a phrase in a video game.
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Perhaps you should learn to read. I detailed precisely why a Defender in our game isn't a "priest", "shaman", or "medic". You also shouldn't assume that I haven't play any other MMOs. I not only play WoW, but I've got high level shamans, druids, priests, and paladins. I know what I'm talking about.
I cared what they were called 4 years ago, I mean, I have been playing this game for 5 years after all. This mentality has existed since the dawn of the game and just because you don't have a problem with ignorance doesn't mean I don't. If you want to talk elitism, turn the mirror upon yourself so that you can see you own reflection. You get onto us about "getting mad at video games", yet you insist on arguing on the internet and telling me that I must have "failed at life"? These are the terms used by a child, and I don't have much patience for children.
You can continue to call yourself and all your buddies "healers" if you want. I don't care what you call yourselves, just don't expect those who know what's going on to invite you to a group without prior knowledge of your playstyle/ability, because "healer" has a definition, and in our game, a "healer" is a poor excuse for a character.
Main Hero : Annilixxion -- Lv50 Blaster
Main Villain : Menkaura -- Lv41 Mastermind
@Laxx
"You will bend to my will, with or without your precious sanity." --Dragon Mage
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'The problem is some people are so obsessed with disproving the whole "we need a healer or we'll die" theory, that they have actually gone one step further and tried to prove that healers are not just not needed, but are indeed useless.'
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QFT, really nothing more to say/post about it, you hit the nail right on the head with a sledge.
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Actually, a lot of people have been arguing that "healer" is an inaccurate and misleading term to describe support archetypes and powersets, which has nothing to do with needing heals. We do not in any way deny that healing is a useful capability, we just deny that it's the defining characteristic of support sets. Especially in light of the fact that multiple sets have no healing powers at all, but can provide just as much support as those that do. Is this really so impossible to understand?
i think think it's more of an absent-minded facepalm with that sledge than it is hitting a nail.
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i make stuff...
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Well just to quote myself from the other thread:
'The problem is some people are so obsessed with disproving the whole "we need a healer or we'll die" theory, that they have actually gone one step further and tried to prove that healers are not just not needed, but are indeed useless.'
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Except "healers" are useless, unless your use for them is to pad a mission. I can grab an Empath that does all a healer does on top of buff and blast. That healer is just going to stand around spamming heals all day. I don't have to "prove" anything because it's self-evident. Having a heal does not make one a healer by my definition. Your insinuation that "we need a healer or we'll die" is merely a theory just proves further that you have no idea what's going on. This isn't something we make up... even though Blasters are my favorite AT, the majority of my character list is made up of Defenders, and I have to deal with this mentality every stinking play-session. Maybe if you PuG'd more, you'd see it more often.
This of course is exempt in the case of the Hamidon, where healing is the only source of damage mitigation you're going to get. Hami cheats.
Main Hero : Annilixxion -- Lv50 Blaster
Main Villain : Menkaura -- Lv41 Mastermind
@Laxx
"You will bend to my will, with or without your precious sanity." --Dragon Mage
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Defenders are not the "Priest, Shaman, Medic, etc" of City of Heroes. Get over it.
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Are you serious?, So when you see an emp AT or a Thermal, you dont see the similarities in both priest and Shaman like abilities?. Heal, team bufff, aoe heal, revive, etc. Now your just delusional or in denial. I'm guessing you never played a Shaman in not just WoW but in many other MMO's, even in D&D the Shaman healed...Do some research before you go posting just to post.
Where are these ego's coming from? no one cared what defenders where called 4 yrs ago, I smell some elitist players hitting CoH, but I digress, you dont like being called a healer then sour grapes for you friend, if your bothered by an IN GAME phrase then there really is no helping you. My best advice?...go out breath some fresh air, because if a phrase in an MMO bothers you that much I say you failed at life, life has way harder decisions than arguing over a phrase in a video game.
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My ego gets bruised when I play my TA/Arch Defender, get asked to join numerous teams, and then get dropped, either before we start, or after the first mission, because the other team members declare "We need a healer." Now, it hurts more when we finish the first mission and no one needed healing. But I let it go, a TA/Arch Defender can solo pretty well. Note that this kind of "add me then drop me" mentality, isn't seen so much at the higher levels. It seems that some folks learn that Defenders are useful even if they aren't "Healers."
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I have seen people limit thier choices for a kin, a rad, a stone tanker, no dark armors, etc. It is not limited to just defenders but defenders get the most bent out of shape.
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Exactly. I can't remember the last time I did an ITF without the leader waiting till he found a Kin to start. I was kicked from a LGTF just before starting because the leader found his Kin at the last minute and my Widow was deemed expendable. If anything, I would say that more people get left out or kicked from teams in favor of Kins then they do Healers, but we don't see people complaining about it here.
Stupid people are stupid. Getting all worked up over it and coming to the forums to whine about it isn't gonna change that.
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I have seen people limit thier choices for a kin, a rad, a stone tanker, no dark armors, etc. It is not limited to just defenders but defenders get the most bent out of shape.
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Exactly. I can't remember the last time I did an ITF without the leader waiting till he found a Kin to start. I was kicked from a LGTF just before starting because the leader found his Kin at the last minute and my Widow was deemed expendable. If anything, I would say that more people get left out or kicked from teams in favor of Kins then they do Healers, but we don't see people complaining about it here.
Stupid people are stupid. Getting all worked up over it and coming to the forums to whine about it isn't gonna change that.
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True. The moral of the story is to never ever ever pug. Its just not worth the stupid.
Want comedy and lighthearted action? Between levels 1-14? Try Nuclear in 90 - The Fusionette Task Force!
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How about all of the above?. See as I posted before, people asking for a "healer" want at THE VERY LEAST one heal, basically any means to mitigate lost life points, no one said you had to stop buffing/debuffing, just cause you have one heal.
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Except that's not always the case. In my experience, teams specifically requesting a "healer" often want defenders to produce green number spam at the expense of the other powers in their arsenal.
I have Rad/ and Dark/ defenders, as well as a /Therm and a /Stormie. They all have heals. I use them. I also use all the other tools in my toolbox - debuffs, buffs and controls. I prefer the paradigm of layered mitigation, where heals are the final line of defense.
You won't find me on a "Healer" team. While I do use my heals, liberally where necessary, being relegated to nothing more than a backseat healspambot isn't an enjoyable playstyle for me. Being offended by the label has nothing to do with it - I have limited time to play, and I choose to play on teams that roll the same way I do. It's more fun and less hassle that way.
"Except "healers" are useless, unless your use for them is to pad a mission."
Well what is the definition of "healer"?
Is it an empath with heal aura, heal other, absorb pain and medicine?
Is it anyone with a heal power?
Is it someone who refuses to use any power except their heal?
I'm assuming you mean either the first example of the last example, but even in those examples, a "healer" is never useless to a team. They may underperform compared to a person who takes a more holistic attitude to their character, but that doesn't make them useless.
The best characters always utilize every aspect of their power sets, regardless of archtype or set. Any character which focuses too much on one specific role is going to underperform in this game. Whether they are an empath focusing on healing, or a tanker focusing on defence to the exclusion of all attacks.
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people asking for a "healer" want at THE VERY LEAST one heal
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If only that were true...
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people asking for a "healer" want at THE VERY LEAST one heal
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If only that were true...
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I did a LGTF last night with an Emp Defender that spent all his time blasting. Didn't use any buffs unless asked and didn't even heal. We didn't often need the heals, but they would have been nice when we did.
Lol Emps that think they're Blasters.
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people asking for a "healer" want at THE VERY LEAST one heal
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If only that were true...
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I did a LGTF last night with an Emp Defender that spent all his time blasting. Didn't use any buffs unless asked and didn't even heal. We didn't often need the heals, but they would have been nice when we did.
Lol Emps that think they're Blasters.
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So you'd prefer he ignore his blast set, get the medicine pool and heal constantly? Because lol thats even less helpful.
Want comedy and lighthearted action? Between levels 1-14? Try Nuclear in 90 - The Fusionette Task Force!
Arc ID 58363!
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people asking for a "healer" want at THE VERY LEAST one heal
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If only that were true...
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I did a LGTF last night with an Emp Defender that spent all his time blasting. Didn't use any buffs unless asked and didn't even heal. We didn't often need the heals, but they would have been nice when we did.
Lol Emps that think they're Blasters.
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So you'd prefer he ignore his blast set, get the medicine pool and heal constantly? Because lol thats even less helpful.
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No I think the logical answer is he would have like someone not to neglect part of their primary pool to assist their team when it would have been more beneifical in certain instances to toss a heal before continuing with his blasting.
But then again you would prefer to troll.
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So you'd prefer he ignore his blast set, get the medicine pool and heal constantly? Because lol thats even less helpful.
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If I have to choose between two kinds of useless, yeah I'll take the heal spammer. In most cases those heals are far more usefull than some weak blasts. The exception being Sonic Blast. That's some good stuff there and that Defender would get yelled at for not blasting.
Problem is, people set the bar too high for empaths.
Asking the average player, who is not always that great at the game to have an awareness of everyones health for healing, everyones buff bar for buffing whilst maintaining a view of the battle so that they can help out with blasting is just asking for too much. Yes, good players can do this. The average player will struggle to achieve it.
I rarely see people get this critical of say scrappers and blasters. Even if a blaster is using his primary completely ineffectively very few people notice aslong as he is constantly blasting.
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Problem is, people set the bar too high for empaths.
Asking the average player, who is not always that great at the game to have an awareness of everyones health for healing, everyones buff bar for buffing whilst maintaining a view of the battle so that they can help out with blasting is just asking for too much. Yes, good players can do this. The average player will struggle to achieve it.
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I agree completely. That's why, in my opinion, people will want a healer of one type or another.
Bad players are bad no matter what you try to do to help them. In that LGTF I mentioned, we tried repeated to get this guy to use his primary. All the helpfull comments turned to sarcastic remarks, then demands for better performance till finally he got kicked.
PUGs are full of bad players. A bad player with a healer mentality just might keep a team alive, while a bad player with a blaster mentality might just get a team wiped. I know which one I'm gonna take.
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Well what is the definition of "healer"?
Is it an empath with heal aura, heal other, absorb pain and medicine?
Is it anyone with a heal power?
Is it someone who refuses to use any power except their heal?
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This is the original intent of the thread, because too many have varying definitions of the word, as it is not explicitly defined in the game. Many have offered great insights (barring the flaming) into how those with healing powers and those without can be used effectively.
However, I don't believe we've reached a general agreement as to what a "healer" really is, in CoX terms.
I personally think the definition should be narrowed if players insist on using it in broadcast when looking for a team. Otherwise, the term becomes too vague and misleading. All this time I've assumed "healer" means an empathy defender/controller, but as I've said before I've seen storm summoners pass themselves off as healers as well.
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The term healer doesn't belong in broadcast or anywhere else in CoX. Healer mindset = bad. It's like going into WoW and claiming you're a Hunter with Speed Boost because you have that +5% speed thing. Completely meaningless.
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So you'd prefer he ignore his blast set, get the medicine pool and heal constantly? Because lol thats even less helpful.
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If I have to choose between two kinds of useless, yeah I'll take the heal spammer. In most cases those heals are far more usefull than some weak blasts. The exception being Sonic Blast. That's some good stuff there and that Defender would get yelled at for not blasting.
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Nah. either ones worthless. someone rocking the auras isnt going to save anyone's life.
Want comedy and lighthearted action? Between levels 1-14? Try Nuclear in 90 - The Fusionette Task Force!
Arc ID 58363!
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Problem is, people set the bar too high for empaths.
Asking the average player, who is not always that great at the game to have an awareness of everyones health for healing, everyones buff bar for buffing whilst maintaining a view of the battle so that they can help out with blasting is just asking for too much. Yes, good players can do this. The average player will struggle to achieve it.
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I agree completely. That's why, in my opinion, people will want a healer of one type or another.
Bad players are bad no matter what you try to do to help them. In that LGTF I mentioned, we tried repeated to get this guy to use his primary. All the helpfull comments turned to sarcastic remarks, then demands for better performance till finally he got kicked.
PUGs are full of bad players. A bad player with a healer mentality just might keep a team alive, while a bad player with a blaster mentality might just get a team wiped. I know which one I'm gonna take.
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a bad player with a healer mentality will be afk and on autofollow on said blaster with the heal aura on autofire.
The moral of the story is PuG's are worthless and if you participate in them you're pretty much asking to fail.
Want comedy and lighthearted action? Between levels 1-14? Try Nuclear in 90 - The Fusionette Task Force!
Arc ID 58363!
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Problem is, people set the bar too high for empaths.
Asking the average player, who is not always that great at the game to have an awareness of everyones health for healing, everyones buff bar for buffing whilst maintaining a view of the battle so that they can help out with blasting is just asking for too much. Yes, good players can do this. The average player will struggle to achieve it.
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I agree completely. That's why, in my opinion, people will want a healer of one type or another.
Bad players are bad no matter what you try to do to help them. In that LGTF I mentioned, we tried repeated to get this guy to use his primary. All the helpfull comments turned to sarcastic remarks, then demands for better performance till finally he got kicked.
PUGs are full of bad players. A bad player with a healer mentality just might keep a team alive, while a bad player with a blaster mentality might just get a team wiped. I know which one I'm gonna take.
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a bad player with a healer mentality will be afk and on autofollow on said blaster with the heal aura on autofire.
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Wrong. That isn't a "healer mentality." That's an "afk" mentality or "leech" mentality, whichever term you prefer better.
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Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
The way you play changes your IO slotting..
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The moral of the story is PuG's are worthless and if you participate in them you're pretty much asking to fail.
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Boy, it's a good thing everybody that plays has the luxury of a developed group to play with on call at all hours.
Oh wait, they don't.
I guess those of us normal folk just have to get by with what's available.
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The moral of the story is PuG's are worthless and if you participate in them you're pretty much asking to fail.
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Boy, it's a good thing everybody that plays has the luxury of a developed group to play with on call at all hours.
Oh wait, they don't.
I guess those of us normal folk just have to get by with what's available.
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I've never had a static party. Never had a particularly supportive SG (never particularly threw myself at one either, so not complaining). For me, PUGs are where the rubber meets the road; I'd get bored playing with the same ATs all the time.
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However, I don't believe we've reached a general agreement as to what a "healer" really is, in CoX terms.
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Actually, I think we have. "Healer" is defined as whatever you've decided your opponents define it as so that you can condemn them and seem to take the moral highground while declaring them idiots.
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The moral of the story is PuG's are worthless and if you participate in them you're pretty much asking to fail.
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Boy, it's a good thing everybody that plays has the luxury of a developed group to play with on call at all hours.
Oh wait, they don't.
I guess those of us normal folk just have to get by with what's available.
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I've never had a static party. Never had a particularly supportive SG (never particularly threw myself at one either, so not complaining). For me, PUGs are where the rubber meets the road; I'd get bored playing with the same ATs all the time.
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That's pretty much how I feel. Most of the regulars I played with quit after ED and GDN. The ones that stayed through that quit after the issue 13 PvP cluster [censored]. The only teams I get now are PUGs because I tend to play some odd hours. I personally like PUGs. I think it's more of a challenge in a game that has few challenges left.
If anything, PUGs have made me more tolerant of bad players. Too bad not everybody can look so kindly on others.
Oddly enough when people ask for a "healer" they seem perfectly content to have my Ice/Therm or Earth/Therm characters on the team. Maybe it varies from server to server. I've also never had to /kick a team member because s/he was a "healer," but I did once /kick a Trick Arrow Defender who spent a solid hour telling another team member he was an idiot because he had selected any heal powers at all.
And that pretty much sums it up for me. I would rather team with a player who isn't very good than a self proclaimed expert who is really just a bully. I would extend this to people so sensitive they feel like they've had their civil rights violated because they are bringing bad memories of WoW into their CoX gameplay.