Misuse of the word "Healer"
By
Acyl,
Posted on: 2009-05-15 19:43 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Bio, take it from my FF defender. You are flat out wrong. With the exception of psy attacks that bypass force-fields entirely, the number of times anybody on my team takes more damage than they can sustain without an outside heal/regen buff do not warrant a power selection.
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That may be true for 90% of the content, but you cannot run a STF/LRSF w/ FF alone. You cannot run a MA mission w/ lvl 54 enemies w/ FF alone. I know I'm picking on FF here, but there aren't many sets that are *only* buff/debuff w/ no heal whatsoever. I can only think of: FF, Sonic, TA, Cold Dom. Even traps has a +regen buff, and storm has a heal-other.
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Right. tell that to the STF I did the other week where we had a cold defender, a sonic controller, and a storm controller. and a shield scrapper tanking.
By the way. we only wiped on recluse a single time. and then ripped him apart,
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Because that's what I fully expect you to do... 
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I don't know you. You don't know me. I'm going to give you a huge benefit of the doubt that you have me confused with someone else and you're not just spewing a paranoid rant or trolling me outright.
Empathy is in fact a horrible set for newbies. It's a poor buff/debuff set, desirable over other buff/debuff sets only in particular situations such as Hamidon raids and empath duos. It puts the most situational powers at low levels, encouraging poor playstyles. It doesn't teach newbies anything about NPCs, except maybe which enemies are mezzers, big damage dealers, and end drainers if they're playing very close attention. Except that usually doesn't happen, because empathy encourages players to not pay attention to anyone but their teammates.
So I wouldn't say the fact that newbies like Empathy is a reason to give it any sort of positive recognition. Quite the opposite.
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Because that's what I fully expect you to do...
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I don't know you. You don't know me. I'm going to give you a huge benefit of the doubt that you have me confused with someone else and you're not just spewing a paranoid rant or trolling me outright.
Empathy is in fact a horrible set for newbies. It's a poor buff/debuff set, desirable over other buff/debuff sets only in particular situations such as Hamidon raids and empath duos. It puts the most situational powers at low levels, encouraging poor playstyles. It doesn't teach newbies anything about NPCs, except maybe which enemies are mezzers, big damage dealers, and end drainers if they're playing very close attention. Except that usually doesn't happen, because empathy encourages players to not pay attention to anyone but their teammates.
So I wouldn't say the fact that newbies like Empathy is a reason to give it any sort of positive recognition. Quite the opposite.
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I agree. In fact, Empathy "breeds" "newbies" because they thought all they need to do is to "heal". They thought they are so good because people ask for "healers" and that's where problems occur...
Empathy actually requires a lot of clicking to be effective. By clicking your teammates, you may lose track of which enemy to take down first. Sometimes it is safer for the team to take down something quicker and this is when Defender's Secondary comes in!
I think /Dark is a good set for newbie players. They'll learn their lessons leveling up. Starting with how anchor works, how to drop Tar Patch out of sight, how to utilize Fear's cone and how to join melee range to heal without fear of dying in melee range. And in the end, hopefully they'll learn that it is better to control/debuff/buff than trying to out-heal the damage taken.
Sitting on the back and setting Heal on auto doesn't teach much especially if the player rarely attacks.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Because that's what I fully expect you to do...
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I don't know you. You don't know me. I'm going to give you a huge benefit of the doubt that you have me confused with someone else and you're not just spewing a paranoid rant or trolling me outright.
Empathy is in fact a horrible set for newbies. It's a poor buff/debuff set, desirable over other buff/debuff sets only in particular situations such as Hamidon raids and empath duos. It puts the most situational powers at low levels, encouraging poor playstyles. It doesn't teach newbies anything about NPCs, except maybe which enemies are mezzers, big damage dealers, and end drainers if they're playing very close attention. Except that usually doesn't happen, because empathy encourages players to not pay attention to anyone but their teammates.
So I wouldn't say the fact that newbies like Empathy is a reason to give it any sort of positive recognition. Quite the opposite.
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I agree. In fact, Empathy "breeds" "newbies" because they thought all they need to do is to "heal". They thought they are so good because people ask for "healers" and that's where problems occur...
Empathy actually requires a lot of clicking to be effective. By clicking your teammates, you may lose track of which enemy to take down first. Sometimes it is safer for the team to take down something quicker and this is when Defender's Secondary comes in!
I think /Dark is a good set for newbie players. They'll learn their lessons leveling up. Starting with how anchor works, how to drop Tar Patch out of sight, how to utilize Fear's cone and how to join melee range to heal without fear of dying in melee range. And in the end, hopefully they'll learn that it is better to control/debuff/buff than trying to out-heal the damage taken.
Sitting on the back and setting Heal on auto doesn't teach much especially if the player rarely attacks.
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Being an empath as my first defender did teach me to be a better player. As a solo empath, you learn FAST how to get the most out of your secondary.
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Because that's what I fully expect you to do...
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I don't know you. You don't know me. I'm going to give you a huge benefit of the doubt that you have me confused with someone else and you're not just spewing a paranoid rant or trolling me outright.
Empathy is in fact a horrible set for newbies. It's a poor buff/debuff set, desirable over other buff/debuff sets only in particular situations such as Hamidon raids and empath duos. It puts the most situational powers at low levels, encouraging poor playstyles. It doesn't teach newbies anything about NPCs, except maybe which enemies are mezzers, big damage dealers, and end drainers if they're playing very close attention. Except that usually doesn't happen, because empathy encourages players to not pay attention to anyone but their teammates.
So I wouldn't say the fact that newbies like Empathy is a reason to give it any sort of positive recognition. Quite the opposite.
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Go back. Re-read my original post.
Then re-read it again.
Then again.
Rinse and repeat until you get it through your thick skull that what I said was that empaths ALLOW for n00bs to play the game without the "frustration" of knowing exactly how to build their toon right off the bat. Or allow for the fact that a 7-year old can play a blaster and begin to learn how to play it without repeatedly dying within 2 minutes of rolling it. Or--
---nvm. Just re-read the friggin' post. At NO point did I say that "n00bs" should roll an emp first. What I SAID was I LOG ON MY EMP TO KEEP MY FRIEND'S KIDS ALIVE WHILE THEY PLAY A GAME THEY KNOW ALMOST NOTHING ABOUT. Which, in the end, makes it a more fun experience for them.
Understand?
No?
Ok, I'm done.
"The One"
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We've all seen the broadcasts: lvl XX healer lft. I used to think people were referring strictly to empaths, but apparently storm summoners can pass themselves as "healers" as well, with their amazing healing set consisting of a whopping 1 single target heal. Maybe it's just me, but this is just more than a tad bit misleading.
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Any use of "healer" is misleading. This game doesn't have a dedicated "healer", no matter how desperately some people attempt to shoehorn it in.
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If this is the case, then any blaster who happens to pick up the ally heal from the Medicine power pool can pass themselves off as "healers" as well.
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You're getting warm.
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Healing is an important part of what defenders can do.
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No, it really isn't. It's part of what some defenders can do, but it's not an important part of what all defenders can do. It's not even the important part of what any defender can do.
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There are times, even when you have great buffs/debuffs/controls, that you just need someone who is good at restoring HP or increasing the other players' regen rate.
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And those times are when you look for a team that isn't splitting up in eight different directions, aggroing entire rooms when half the team is still fighting in the previous room or running blindly into spawns with six aggro-generating toggles turned on and running back to the group screaming "HEAL ME".
Instead of looking for a "healer", look for the Kick button and better teammates.
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Anyone have a video of a team w/ no defenders or controllers running and successfully winning a STF? Oh, and extensive use of temp powers, aid other, etc, invalidate that as "your team" isn't really winning, then...
I just don't buy that you never need any kind of heal whatsoever, apart from respites, for some of the hardest content in the game. I've been on teams w/ an ideal makeup, (like a kin, stone tank, rads), that didn't succeed, so you'll have to prove to me that you don't need them.
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Is this an example of moving the goalposts? i can't tell.
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In a roundabout way. He's shipping the entire field across the ocean, goal posts included.
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Indeed.
And as for SStingrays comment:
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Healing is an important part of what defenders can do.
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Umm... No. I see the one, single power in my kit bag that heals, as being the least important ability that my Kin has.
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Holy misquote Batman! It doesn't sound like you really read what I said at all. If healing wasn't important, there wouldn't be teams asking for healers to begin with.
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It's not the importance of heals that drive players to seek out "healers". Ignorance, laziness and sometimes sheer incompetence are why some players want "healers".
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Healing is an important part of what defenders can do.
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No, it really isn't. It's part of what some defenders can do, but it's not an important part of what all defenders can do. It's not even the important part of what any defender can do.
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Indeed.
And as for SStingrays comment:
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Healing is an important part of what defenders can do.
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Umm... No. I see the one, single power in my kit bag that heals, as being the least important ability that my Kin has.
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Holy misquote Batman! It doesn't sound like you really read what I said at all. If healing wasn't important, there wouldn't be teams asking for healers to begin with.
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It's not the importance of heals that drive players to seek out "healers". Ignorance, laziness and sometimes sheer incompetence are why some players want "healers".
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I make an answer to this already and people still try to argue with me about it?
Let me try to restate this clearly, then. Just because healing is the "least important" thing in the defenders' arsenal does not change the fact that it is still important for at least someone to have. Personally, I truly believe if the defenders, controllers, scrappers, and tanks on the team are good enough, Aid Other from the power pool on two people is enough. Stimulant from the same power-pool is really useful for teammates to have as well.
Storm's O2 does most (but not quite all) of the same things with no interruption and half the recharge rate and with only a single power. Radiant Aura, Transfusion, Twilight's Grasp, Healing Aura and Heal Other are all powers that can replace Aid Other from the power pool, with some of them also effectively replacing Aid Self at the same time. So usually it falls to the Defender to provide what healing is necessary.
Otherwise, if the Scrapper wants to take the medicine power pool and call himself a healer then that's just fine with me.
You know what? This is the same argument I've been in three years ago. It is also clear that everybody is ignorant, lazy, and just plain incompetent except "you." Time for me to get used to it, again. Enough is enough. This thread is not worth coming back to if people are just going to say the same things over and over again. It's not a discussion or debate. It is just an angry argument.
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That's kind of an interesting point.
You don't really see too many heals beyond Tier 3 that aren't in a Defense set.
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How many ATs don't use their Tier 1,2 & 3 powers at level 50?
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I don't think that was even remotely close to my point, sadly.
I was merely commenting on the fact that there aren't a lot of heals (Infact, none I could find in a Support secondary unless we count Regeneration as a heal - which I don't, but I understand where other people can and respectfully disagree on semantic issues; And in this case, only Regeneration Aura qualifies in this regard. Perhaps also Frostworks - Never worked with it, so I have no idea) above the Third Tier of power selection, where it's reasonably accepted that most of these powers are weaker then those at the upper tiers, but because of recharge may or may not be staples or 'filler' anyway.
Case in point - Tier 2 for Controllers is most often a Hold, and Tier 3 most often an Area Immobilize power. Once solid controls are developed, these often blossom up into the most often used powers in the set, for locking down priority targets and keeping mobs clumped for AoEs. While still not as powerful as, say, an Area Disorient or Area Hold, they're up far more often and can also be used as a solid source of damage.
Secondary Case - Brutes are often encouraged to take their first three powers, simply for the fact that they recharge fast and can be thereby used to generate Fury far more rapidly then upper tier attacks (letting those attacks hit harder).
But, at the same time... no heals above third tier. It's a curious choice, in my mind, and absolutely nothing more.
ok gents, im about to post up my opinion. please stop salivating, getting ready to type like little madtrolls because "YOUR OPINION IS WRONG NOOB!!!"
the OP was talking about a stormy getting in as a response to a broadcast for a healer. this means it was puggy
its way easier to be a good "mere healer" than it is to be good with your whole set.
amongst your S/VG or with friends, id agree with all the healer haters in the thread. I am not, however, going to take a chance puggin it up with some sonic cause he says things like "once i buff/debuff you wont need a healer!" and have him turn out to be some nubby nub nub.
laymans:
good buff/debuff > good healer
bad healer > bad buff/debuff
pugs are all about statistics. you have a better chance with someone AT'd for healing than the stormy or TA.
Bad Healer = Twit that does nothing but spam Healing Aura and thinks he's contributing.
Bad Buffer = FF that just leaves on Dispersion Bubble and spams KDs/KBs.
Which one contributes more mitigation? Hmm?
Stating anything as an absolute when talking about player skill is ridiculous because there are more variables then just the skill of the player involved.
Drives me nuts.
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ok gents, im about to post up my opinion. please stop salivating, getting ready to type like little madtrolls because "YOUR OPINION IS WRONG NOOB!!!"
the OP was talking about a stormy getting in as a response to a broadcast for a healer. this means it was puggy
its way easier to be a good "mere healer" than it is to be good with your whole set.
amongst your S/VG or with friends, id agree with all the healer haters in the thread. I am not, however, going to take a chance puggin it up with some sonic cause he says things like "once i buff/debuff you wont need a healer!" and have him turn out to be some nubby nub nub.
laymans:
good buff/debuff > good healer
bad healer > bad buff/debuff
pugs are all about statistics. you have a better chance with someone AT'd for healing than the stormy or TA.
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I'm not sure what you're supposed to be trying to say here, but if I get stuck with a bad player of any AT, I'm dropping them as fast as I can and I'll pick up a replacement who isn't terrible. For clarity's sake, "bad" in this case refers to this player's inability to play his/her AT while simultaneously refusing to heed the advice of the rest of the group. I have no problem trying to help a new player figure out the intricacies of a particular combination (or to break them of previous MMO habits), but the minute they think that their bad play is how it's supposed to be played and WE all suck? Yeah, they're outta the group.
As to the topic of this thread, the only thing I've ever associated with the "healer" title is a player who only takes (or only uses) their heal powers and does nothing else. This type of player is completely worthless to me for many reasons, not the least of which being that I can find a real Defender or Controller who not only uses their heals, but isn't afraid to click their other power buttons. This is also a hot-button topic with me specifically because my Dark Defender spent a lot of time being kicked from teams because she wasn't an Empath and I wasn't spamming my heals enough (nevermind the fact that nobody was even taking damage that my single heal fired off every 15 minutes couldn't patch up).
As far as I'm concerned, if you choose to represent yourself as a Healer, I'm going to assume that you fall into my definition of the term and I won't knowingly pick you for my team. I couldn't care less if you actually play your Defender like a defender and use every power in your primary and secondary -- if I see you asking for a team, and you call yourself a Healer, I'll never know because I refuse to take the chance on grabbing a bum leech teammate.
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You know what makes a great team healer great? Having another great defender on the same team. 
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Not in direct response to the one I replied against
I love it when these posts come up and all the "healer haters" come out of the woodwork. I agree that when anyone takes one attack and the rest are nothing more than heals and pool powers that are non-attacking it is a waste of space on a team.
My empath defenders are great with heals and still contribute to the team by attacking more than 1x per mob. Not EVERYONE plays their "healers" like a noob on drugs.
To the OP, if they have a way to heal a member of the team I would say they can say they are a healer. If your looking for an empath then you should be looking for someone that advertises themselves as an empath and not a healer.
To all "healer Haters", I have seen teams run perfectly fine without a healer on. Healers are not required but certainly makes life just a tad easier. So lets lighten up on the healer bashing and just plain say there are some of them that can contribute more to the team than others.
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Not in direct response to the one I replied against
I love it when these posts come up and all the "healer haters" come out of the woodwork. I agree that when anyone takes one attack and the rest are nothing more than heals and pool powers that are non-attacking it is a waste of space on a team.
My empath defenders are great with heals and still contribute to the team by attacking more than 1x per mob. Not EVERYONE plays their "healers" like a noob on drugs.
To the OP, if they have a way to heal a member of the team I would say they can say they are a healer. If your looking for an empath then you should be looking for someone that advertises themselves as an empath and not a healer.
To all "healer Haters", I have seen teams run perfectly fine without a healer on. Healers are not required but certainly makes life just a tad easier. So lets lighten up on the healer bashing and just plain say there are some of them that can contribute more to the team than others.
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What's so odd about using the proper term for the AT - defender, corrupter, mastermind, or controller - that you go so far out of your way to say 'healer'?
I have no problem with Empaths, Thermals, Rads, Darks, or even Stormies. But, honestly, I find the term 'healer' a distinction that is not necessary, and is a hold-over of games where The Holy Trifecta (Tank-Heal-DPSx3) is the one and only true path to getting anything done, and woe betide you for trying otherwise.
This game's built on wildly different rules. You can roll with almost any combination of ATs provided the players are at least half-competent, paying attention, and willing to listen. It doesn't really matter beyond that.
You can call'em healers, but I'll use the proper distinctive term to adequately describe everything they bring to the team - and that's either defender, or controller.
Or if we're rollin' red, Corrupter or Mastermind.
They do so much more for your team when played right, it's discrediting to compliment them on only one part of their designed function.
EDIT: An official apology for all the red-side homies I forgot about when making this post - leaving you out of the initial rant was, in hindsight, an insult. :/ We coo', though, right?
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For both players and NPCs, the game actually forces an attack to auto-hit occasionally. That means true 95% damage mitigation isn't really possible
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Yes it is. Streakbreaker isn't just random, it has a system.
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Thank you for pointing me to that nice little article. After a couple years absence and being lured back only by Architect, I had been having a really hard time finding some of my old data sources. It definitely looks like I don't have to worry about the actual Streakbreaker code. Just the soft and hard caps. So 90% damage mitigation from defense alone is at least possible. (5% low-end capped to-hit * up to 1.5 accuracy mod for purple targets * 1.3 accuracy for boss types = 9.75% to hit. Or maybe just 9% if those accuracy mods add instead of multiply.)
That's not quite convincing me to drop Radiant Aura from my build just yet, though. Getting that level of defense is going to be tricky for anybody but a force-field defender, multiple defenders, or a defender buffing a tanker or scrapper (or substitute corrupter, mastermind, controller, or brute as appropriate if you prefer.) Even then, having 1 out of 10 attacks hit can still hurt.
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I wouldn't drop Radiant Aura, or any heal for that matter.
[/ QUOTE ]My Rad's heal is Vengeance. I even got the first Healing badge with it
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What's so odd about using the proper term for the AT - defender, corrupter, mastermind, or controller - that you go so far out of your way to say 'healer'?
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I do agree that if someone advertises themselves as a "healer" then you can question if they will do anything else. 
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I have no problem with Empaths, Thermals, Rads, Darks, or even Stormies. But, honestly, I find the term 'healer' a distinction that is not necessary, and is a hold-over of games where The Holy Trifecta (Tank-Heal-DPSx3) is the one and only true path to getting anything done, and woe betide you for trying otherwise.
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I can agree with this statement also. Everyone on a team should be able to carry themselves no matter the AT they are.
We all good, then. :3
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quote]My Rad's heal is Vengeance. I even got the first Healing badge with it
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Uhm...letting your team mates die when it could have possibly been avoided by a heal is generally a bad thing, FYI.
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quote]My Rad's heal is Vengeance. I even got the first Healing badge with it
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Uhm...letting your team mates die when it could have possibly been avoided by a heal is generally a bad thing, FYI.
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The AT can throw the heal to save someone but as stated through out this thread should also help with defeating the groups.
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quote]My Rad's heal is Vengeance. I even got the first Healing badge with it
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Uhm...letting your team mates die when it could have possibly been avoided by a heal is generally a bad thing, FYI.
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Speaking from experience, there are just some instances where you cannot save the person being targeted. They're boned. Trying to save them when you could be saving someone else, then hitting Vengenace/Fallout/Mutation to completely turn the tide and get me back into the fight anyway, is not the best or most efficient course of action.
As for the experience point, my SG jokes that it's not a good night if I don't go off like a maniac and get myself baked at least once. And I am deeply saddened and disappointed whenever a faceplant happens, and I'm not the one taking the nap.
...Not to say that I suck (totally different rant), but I do frequently get myself into situations where no amount of healing will save me - it'll just delay the inevitable.
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Empaths are the toons that make the game fun for "n00bs"...
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Like Storm can't do that?
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Are you saying that's one of the main functions of a Stormy?
'Cause that's what I was saying about empaths....
In no way, shape, or form was I making any sort of statement on Storm toons in my post. I'm actually incredulous of how you'd even assume that's what I was doing, since you "know me so well"...
Here's a question.... Are you going to ask another question to elicit a response that has absolutely nothing to do with my original statement (which originally was intended to counteract the TON of "f**k healer" posts I've already read, and not just in this thread)? And then accuse me of not answering your question after reading this post?
Because that's what I fully expect you to do...
I can play this game all day, friend... Now, whether I *want* to is another story....lol.
"The One"
76 characters and Twenty-four 50s later, I still love this game.
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