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FAST PVP HURTS MY EYES!!!! ZOMG MY EYES!!!!!!!!!
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No, it just sucks.
Another analogy if you will - hopefully more to your liking than billiards:
A quick MMA fight is what? Boooooooooring. Why? Because it's a definite sign of an imbalance. A balanced fight = longer fight = more entertaining fight.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ah you hit on the proper word there: entertaining.
My beef with PVP here was not that it was "fast" but that it wasn't entertaining. I spent more time traveling in the zone, either chasing someone or running back from the hospital, than actually fighting. When I would get a fight, one of us would be dead in like 2 seconds or the coward would run and the fight would never be over. It was tedious. There ARE fast paced, even twitch-based PVP games out there which are actually entertaining, but this wasn't one of them.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by eltonio
This is over the top mental slavery.
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[ QUOTE ]
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2. didn't like that they had to build their character differently. (Dual builds added - check)
[/ QUOTE ] Dual builds are good but it means 2xtimes much IOs to spend on my toon to make it work in pvp and pve(and yes i want IOed toons to run TFs sry :P)...in i12 i still could have buffs on my pvp toon and do great in TFs, just example fire/em blasters. Fire ball was great in both pvp and pve now it is junk. Thanks.
[/ QUOTE ]
The reduction of damage change to the Targeted AoE's and the PBAoE's was one of the best changes to PvP. Why should one AT do so much damage to a whole entire team. If you want to fight someone 1 vs 1 then you still can, but if you want to fight another team then get a team of your own and do it the right way.
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4. didn't like that their Superman clone could die in half a second. (Answer for that: Slow down the game, as the devs are trying to)
[/ QUOTE ] yeah now they don't die at all unless you drain them to 0 or have 10 ppl attacking them...is THIS balance??????
[/ QUOTE ]
Quit fighting in the arena with DR, Movement Suppression and Healing Decay off and you will get some kills.
lvl 50 - Elec/WP/Mu Mastery Stalker, lvl 50 - Dark/EA/Soul Mastery Stalker, lvl 50 - EM/Nin/Soul Mastery Stalker
New Toons
lvl 21 - StJ/WP Stalker
[ QUOTE ]
The reduction of damage change to the Targeted AoE's and the PBAoE's was one of the best changes to PvP. Why should one AT do so much damage to a whole entire team.
[/ QUOTE ]
Umm... I'm gonna say this, and the truth hurts, but I'm sorry - if you caught more than one or maybe two people with an AoE you were probably fighting retards. This isn't PvE, other players don't herd themselves into nice clumps to get AoE'd to death. Only place AoEs truly mattered was against Masterminds in bodyguard mode, and pets still take PvE damage from attacks so nothing has really changed.
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
[ QUOTE ]
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And the 'hardcore' pvpers may be surprised to hear that this is probably the majorty's concensus, and thus, who the devs are listening to.
[/ QUOTE ]
This statement, combined with the utter lack of attention the devs paid to the people who bothered to work with the system and make it work for them, speak volumes to why we have the giant steaming pile of [censored] we have today.
Yes, let's listen to the lowest common denominator. Screw trying to keep up with Joneses, let's just drag them down to our level!
[/ QUOTE ]
It's called the 80% rule of business. You cannot appeal to 100% of your customers, so you aim for 80%. If you're not in that 80%, you're a niche market and odds are a product designed for mass appeal is simply not taking you into account. Sorry if that upsets you, or if you feel slighted, but businesses exist to make money and a game like this has to use the 80% rule if they want to stay afloat, even if a small portion of that other 20% leave in a huff.
[/ QUOTE ]
No sane business manager is going to implement a strategy that:
1. Has no guarantee of enticing that 80% in, and
2. Will likely drive away that remaining 20%.
Yet that's exactly what happened. Where's the 80% this change was designed for? I sure don't see 'em in the zones or arena. Seems like a failure to me.
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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And the 'hardcore' pvpers may be surprised to hear that this is probably the majorty's concensus, and thus, who the devs are listening to.
[/ QUOTE ]
This statement, combined with the utter lack of attention the devs paid to the people who bothered to work with the system and make it work for them, speak volumes to why we have the giant steaming pile of [censored] we have today.
Yes, let's listen to the lowest common denominator. Screw trying to keep up with Joneses, let's just drag them down to our level!
[/ QUOTE ]
It's called the 80% rule of business. You cannot appeal to 100% of your customers, so you aim for 80%. If you're not in that 80%, you're a niche market and odds are a product designed for mass appeal is simply not taking you into account. Sorry if that upsets you, or if you feel slighted, but businesses exist to make money and a game like this has to use the 80% rule if they want to stay afloat, even if a small portion of that other 20% leave in a huff.
[/ QUOTE ]
No sane business manager is going to implement a strategy that:
1. Has no guarantee of enticing that 80% in, and
2. Will likely drive away that remaining 20%.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually I-12 PVPers are not the full 20%. PVPers are a small subset of that 20%.
And yes, if you have a scheme which may increase the retention of your 80% even if it alienates the 20% you're not really aiming for to begin with, then it's a worthwhile risk. It just didn't pan out quite as well as it should have.
[ QUOTE ]
Yet that's exactly what happened. Where's the 80% this change was designed for? I sure don't see 'em in the zones or arena. Seems like a failure to me.
[/ QUOTE ]
No arguement here that PVP still needs some work. That wasn't my point. The point was that because you're not in that 80%, they aren't going to try to cater to you. As a business you have to decide who your customer base is (the 80%) and cater to them because you can survive with just them. You can't survive with just the 20%.
I think they also already shot themselves in the foot by implementing such a lousy PVP system to begin with that the reputation PVP has in this game is a very big obstacle. Even if they miraculously fix everything wrong with PVP somehow, I think the lingering public opinion of how bad it is will prevent any kind of large influx of players into PVP.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by eltonio
This is over the top mental slavery.
|
[ QUOTE ]
No sane business manager is going to implement a strategy that:
1. Has no guarantee of enticing that 80% in, and
2. Will likely drive away that remaining 20%.
Yet that's exactly what happened. Where's the 80% this change was designed for? I sure don't see 'em in the zones or arena. Seems like a failure to me.
[/ QUOTE ]
I didn't PvP before the changes. I don't PvP now because of the changes, but rather because Slax started recruiting after so many of his friends left and he lured me in and tricked me into having fun.
[/ QUOTE ]
QFT
[/ QUOTE ]
Really why is that cause I might be right or were you one of the whinners?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No sane business manager is going to implement a strategy that:
1. Has no guarantee of enticing that 80% in, and
2. Will likely drive away that remaining 20%.
Yet that's exactly what happened. Where's the 80% this change was designed for? I sure don't see 'em in the zones or arena. Seems like a failure to me.
[/ QUOTE ]
I didn't PvP before the changes. I don't PvP now because of the changes, but rather because Slax started recruiting after so many of his friends left and he lured me in and tricked me into having fun.
[/ QUOTE ]
shh don't tell Posi.
Infinity and Victory mostly
dUmb, etc.
lolz PvP anymore, Market PvP for fun and profit
Slax are you NCSOFT Agent!!??? i kid 
I truely believe that those who do not PVP, get shell-shocked by PVP "game speed", when they finally decide to try it. You cannot compare PvP speed to PvE speed. They are two entirely different "gears".
I believe that most of those who complain about PVP fights being too short....or never ending at all.....simply don't know how to PVP well enough "yet", are caught off guard, do not have the tools they need in their build. This comes with time invested.
I further believe that those who do not PVP because its not "fun" for them....if forced to PVP for about 30+ hours, would in fact learn to survive long enough and kill more efficiently......and....learn.....enough....to.... *gasp*....actually begin to have fun. (When you don't know what you're doing and dieing on the regular, there is a pretty good chance you're gonna hate whatever it is you're doing, and be turned off by it.)
I also think that too many first time pvp'rs never "get over" what they call "ganking". The thing is....what they call "ganking", I call lack of awareness or lack of familiarity with the toon they are on. They simply don't know what they can/should do in certain situations, in order to survive with that toon. This too comes with time invested.
I further believe many folks have too much pride to take the time to learn what they NEED to learn. They can't stand getting their butts kicked while they learn. It's too frustrating, too hard, to annoying, too complicated.....whatever the case.
This one, I simply do not "get". No one is an expert, or even competetive the first time they try something new. Patience would do them wonders.
Those who PvP know what Im talking about....those who don't pvp, never will.
btw Textilian, I too was "tricked" into liking pvp. Suzanne Somers, a global friend of mine, talked me into committing 2 hours a night, 3 days a week, for 3 weeks. The first night all did was cuss him out on skype. Heck teh first week, I mostly cussed him.
2nd week, I started getting a few more kills, dieing less quickly, and dieing less often. By week 3 I was hooked and have been ever since.
I started out on a stalker.....one that I almost never play anymore because my much more easily killed toons like my corr and dom are so much more fun, now that I understand how to play them.
Although, let me also state that I was repeatedly "ganked" on these same toons when I first started to PvP with them. I learned how to use them, played within the confines of what their builds allowed, and found that even my 'weak" toons are a helluva allotta fun.
I have to disagree. I did fine as a team-buffing kin in zone PVP, both Sirens and RV. With the current system, not only are my buffs next to useless, but I cannot use movement to increase survivability. There is a difference between having to learn how to play a support toon to make it viable, and having your toon rendered next to useless even when you know how to play it. All of my characters were support - sonics and kins mostly. I may as well crumple them up and toss them in the trash with the current PVP system.
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And the 'hardcore' pvpers may be surprised to hear that this is probably the majorty's concensus, and thus, who the devs are listening to.
[/ QUOTE ]
This statement, combined with the utter lack of attention the devs paid to the people who bothered to work with the system and make it work for them, speak volumes to why we have the giant steaming pile of [censored] we have today.
Yes, let's listen to the lowest common denominator. Screw trying to keep up with Joneses, let's just drag them down to our level!
[/ QUOTE ]
It's called the 80% rule of business. You cannot appeal to 100% of your customers, so you aim for 80%. If you're not in that 80%, you're a niche market and odds are a product designed for mass appeal is simply not taking you into account. Sorry if that upsets you, or if you feel slighted, but businesses exist to make money and a game like this has to use the 80% rule if they want to stay afloat, even if a small portion of that other 20% leave in a huff.
[/ QUOTE ]
No sane business manager is going to implement a strategy that:
1. Has no guarantee of enticing that 80% in, and
2. Will likely drive away that remaining 20%.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually I-12 PVPers are not the full 20%. PVPers are a small subset of that 20%.
And yes, if you have a scheme which may increase the retention of your 80% even if it alienates the 20% you're not really aiming for to begin with, then it's a worthwhile risk. It just didn't pan out quite as well as it should have.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm sorry, but if a proposal has no guarantee of gaining customers, but almost certainly guarantees you'll lose customers, it makes zero sense to implement that proposal. No new customers is still more money in your pockets than losing old customers without gaining anything in return.
I don't think I'll be commenting anymore on this topic, as I am absolutely appalled by the sheer amount of incompetence displayed both here on the forums (I'm not directing that at you, by the way) and by this game's management in general, and sooner or later I'm bound to say something that'll get me banned.
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
Hmmm. I see your point. So it was bad before, and changes had to have made it better. Got you.
I wish those who think the new PVP is better, or the old one was horribly broken, would not accept those things as facts on their own. It was not proven beyond any doubt that the old PVP was horribly broken. Needing some changes? Definitely. So broken it needed a complete overhaul? There is where we come to OPINION, not fact. In my opinion, it needed changes. It got those, plus a whole other group of changes that made the overall experience worse for a lot of people. More suppression? People hate suppression in PVE - it is one of the most reviled additions to the game. DR? Yeah, all those people with defenders and controllers wanted to have their buffs worth a fraction of what they should be.
I am sorry. I have rambled a bit. My main point - don't go about talking how PVP was horribly broken because it is not some proven fact. It is not some self-evident thing that the PVP was so horrible that anything is better than what we had.
We were playing on the full-sized table, NOW we are playing on the kids table. It used to take more skill, because game mechanics did not actively get in the way of utilizing your toon's strengths and natural roles. Now, it is about doing damage and....doing damage.
[ QUOTE ]
I truely believe that those who do not PVP, get shell-shocked by PVP "game speed", when they finally decide to try it. You cannot compare PvP speed to PvE speed. They are two entirely different "gears".
I believe that most of those who complain about PVP fights being too short....or never ending at all.....simply don't know how to PVP well enough "yet", are caught off guard, do not have the tools they need in their build. This comes with time invested.
I further believe that those who do not PVP because its not "fun" for them....if forced to PVP for about 30+ hours, would in fact learn to survive long enough and kill more efficiently......and....learn.....enough....to.... *gasp*....actually begin to have fun. (When you don't know what you're doing and dieing on the regular, there is a pretty good chance you're gonna hate whatever it is you're doing, and be turned off by it.)
[/ QUOTE ]
No. Another NCSoft title, Exteel, is about 10x as fast as CoX PVP, and it's fun out of the gate. It doesn't require that you spend days/weeks/months learning how to play. You play one tutorial that lasts all of maybe 30 minutes and you're ready to jump right into your first deathmatch.
And the speed of that PVP makes CoX look like slow motion. The fact that there is no auto targeting, you actually have to aim for what you're shooting at? Yeah you're gonna build skills or you're gonna die fast.
But it's FUN from level 1 on up. And thats the difference: FUN NOW. Not "well you have to EARN the ability to have fun". Screw that. I have a job where I have to EARN things. I play games for entertainment. Exteel requires MAD SKILLZ of the kind that would probably make most PVPers in this game WEEP to truely excel at (it's free to play... try it!), but even if you don't excel, as long as you have an ounce of ability you will never feel like you can't compete at all. And if you like twitch PVP, you'll have fun. From the very first time you play. You won't need to invest days/weeks/months to start having fun. You can start having fun within 30 minutes of signing up!
This game, the PVP SUCKS and BLOWS at the same time and always has because it's obviously a lazily tacked on system where there was no thought or development behind it. At least they're developing for it now.
It needs to be fun out of the gate. Not fun maybe someday if you find the right build and spend days/weeks/months doing nothing but dying or chasing down foes with no satisfying or fun gameplay.
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This one, I simply do not "get". No one is an expert, or even competetive the first time they try something new. Patience would do them wonders.
[/ QUOTE ]
Funny that no other PVP game seems to share this issue.
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Those who PvP know what Im talking about....those who don't pvp, never will.
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I PVP all the time... in REAL PVP games where it takes actual skill to excel but is, in fact, actually fun to learn how to aquire those skills.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by eltonio
This is over the top mental slavery.
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[ QUOTE ]
Hmmm. I see your point. So it was bad before, and changes had to have made it better. Got you.
I wish those who think the new PVP is better, or the old one was horribly broken, would not accept those things as facts on their own.
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I accept it as fact because I saw what it was like before and just said "lolpvp" because of how weak it was.
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It was not proven beyond any doubt that the old PVP was horribly broken.
[/ QUOTE ]
Unless, of course, you actually have played games with good PVP and know what it SHOULD be like. In which case you'll be all like "dude! this pvp is total crap!"
Quote:
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Originally Posted by eltonio
This is over the top mental slavery.
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Yeah, played plenty of games with good PvP. Still like(d) CoH PvP.
There goes that theory.
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
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Yeah, played plenty of games with good PvP. Still like(d) CoH PvP.
There goes that theory.
[/ QUOTE ]
No, it just means you have much lower standards.
Edit: what other PVP games HAVE you played? I'm curious.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by eltonio
This is over the top mental slavery.
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I pkayed Exteel for a while..it got boring fast though due the lack of varierity an actual tactic/strategy :/
[ QUOTE ]
I pkayed Exteel for a while..it got boring fast though due the lack of varierity an actual tactic/strategy :/
[/ QUOTE ]
So... you never visited the store and experimented with the nigh infinite variety of weapon loadouts, skill packages, and mech builds?
Because there's a very wide variety of tactics available. In fact, there are MORE tactical options in exteel than exist in CoX. ALOT more. Part of those means equipping yourself for those tactics before the fight, but since you can endlessly customize your mech before each battle that shouldn't be an issue.
Just the number of ways you can build your mech are almost as numerous as the COSTUMES in CoX, except they actually mean something. Thats not even counting weapons or skills.
And team tactics are absolutely required to win CTF or Team Deathmatches.
Yeah, if you just play the one PVE scenario available over and over I can see how it would get dull. It's a PVP game where tactics is EVERYTHING.
In fact, to say that there are no real tactics in Exteel suggests to me that either you never actually played it, you never PVPed with it, or that you just really sucked at it. That game is ALL tactics.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by eltonio
This is over the top mental slavery.
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Or am just a much better judge of quality.
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
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Or am just a much better judge of quality.
[/ QUOTE ]
No, I've read plenty of your posts to know you're willing to settle for a much lower level of quality than I ever would.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by eltonio
This is over the top mental slavery.
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[ QUOTE ]
Edit: what other PVP games HAVE you played? I'm curious.
[/ QUOTE ]
Let's see...
We'll start with pretty much every major and minor fighting game since the late 80's. Multi-player RTS from Warcraft through Starcraft up to Sins of a Solar Empire. FPS from DN3D, Quake, UT (and the metric ton of variations on it), CS (including a spot on a higher ranked league team in Vegas), TFC/TF2, L4D. MMO's from UO, EQ 1 and 2, DAoC, WoW, WAR, AA (lulz, AA), FF XI.
That's just off of the top of my head. How about you?
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
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Or am just a much better judge of quality.
[/ QUOTE ]
No, I've read plenty of your posts to know you're willing to settle for a much lower level of quality than I ever would.
[/ QUOTE ]
aka, you were bad at PvP and are mad at those that are better. It's ok. You can admit it.
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
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[ QUOTE ]
Edit: what other PVP games HAVE you played? I'm curious.
[/ QUOTE ]
Let's see...
We'll start with pretty much every major and minor fighting game since the late 80's. Multi-player RTS from Warcraft through Starcraft up to Sins of a Solar Empire. FPS from DN3D, Quake, UT (and the metric ton of variations on it), CS (including a spot on a higher ranked league team in Vegas), TFC/TF2, L4D. MMO's from UO, EQ 1 and 2, DAoC, WoW, WAR, AA (lulz, AA), FF XI.
That's just off of the top of my head. How about you?
[/ QUOTE ]
I have trouble believing that you still think CoV PVP is actually good if all that is true.
Off the top of my head:
Wing Commander Armada, X-Wing vs. Tie Fighter, DOOM, DOOM2, Warcraft 1 and 2, Age of Empires 1 and 2, Quake 1,2, Wars, MOO2, L4D, Might and Magic: Dark Messiah, Darkfall Online, Pirates of the Burning Sea, Warhammer Online, Exteel, Dungeon Runners, Lineage II, Guild Wars, Age of Conan, Rome: Total War, Medieval II: Total War, Heroes of Might and Magic (series I-V) and of course, CoX.
I am also a beta tester for Fallen Earth, but I can't discuss that in any detail.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by eltonio
This is over the top mental slavery.
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If it were considered more fun now (in general) than before, why such a drop in population?
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Because those that liked crap dont like things that arent crap?
And whether you choose to believe it or not, the damage has been done. But of course you wouldnt because you say you liked it before. Though if you can for a min assume that it was bad, then you might understand how it pushed people away (with the issues Mac has said) and how hard it would be to get them to give PvP another chance.
[/ QUOTE ]
Pot, meet kettle.
Fact is, people that don't want to PvP... aren't going to PvP. No amount of incentives or tweaking will change that. You can try and add lots and lots of rewards, at which point people will feel pressured to PvP just to keep up - but that's not a good business model by any stretch of the imagination. Fact is, both on the boards and in the game, I've seen far less people with positive things to say about the changes than I've seen negative. Does that mean all the people who don't like it are wrong? I really doubt that.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually if they ever fix PVP, I'll give it another shot. I've played it pre-I13 and post and it was a lackluster system then and it's a lackluster system now. PVP in this game was always treated as an afterthought and it shows, which is the same because there's some features of the PVP zones I really enjoyed in the past, like the hotzones in Siren's Call.
I am glad the devs are making adjustments to PVP. However, they still have a long way to go before I'd consider it worth my playtime.