An open letter to the Devs, re: PvP

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I used to PvP around abit for fun, but going into the zones such as siren's and RV I feel that only certain power sets will survive when leaving the base. Maybe it's just me, but I think to PvP you shouldn't *Need* to buy IO's. They should help, but not determine if you are able to pvp or not.
Just sharing my thoughts.

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They didn't determine if you could PvP or not before. I've seen people do some pretty impressive things with some otherwise bad sets.

The necessity of certain sets is a lot of the "myth" surrounding PvP.

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"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict

They should hire macskull to fill the PvP Dev position.

macskull
macskull
macskull

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A very sad story about War Witch and the neglected kitty. http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=219670

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They should hire macskull to fill the PvP Dev position.

macskull
macskull
macskull

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QFT
/e cheer

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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
They should hire macskull to fill the PvP Dev position.

macskull
macskull
macskull

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT
/e cheer

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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
They should hire macskull to fill the PvP Dev position.

macskull
macskull
macskull

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QFT
/e cheer

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Yeah, I've been spending a lot of time in the zones ane lol me trying to do damage on anything.

Travel Suppression is probably the thing I'd revert first, along with the Hold system. Oh and Diminishing Returns.

It's just jarring being in Dom and actually being held or Break Frees not doing...anything of value. It is basically just Damage-Damage-Damage-Evade a bit-Damage-Damage!

I miss the days when teams would carry and Emp or Kin and a few damage dealers and evasion or such would actually matter.

Oh, and I don't [censored] much about stuff but ffs lower the holds on the PvE mobs in those zones or scale them and their damage down to PvP mods.

I dunno, I still have fun with the dUmbies win or lose but...a lot of the joy and exhiliration is just pffft...gone.

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Infinity Villains
Champion, Pinnacle, Virtue Heroes

If I could revert one thing from I13 it'd be travel suppression (or at least just add in suppression from melee attacks). If I could revert two things, it'd be travel suppression and heal decay. Three things? Getting optimistic here, but TS, heal decay, and base resists would go.

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Travel Suppression is probably the thing I'd revert first, along with the Hold system. Oh and Diminishing Returns.

It's just jarring being in Dom and actually being held or Break Frees not doing...anything of value. It is basically just Damage-Damage-Damage-Evade a bit-Damage-Damage!

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Everything else I agree with but your take on the "Hold system." The mez protection -> mez resistance change needs a lot of balancing, but it is the one thing I can say is nice.

You think it's jarring being in Dom and actually getting held? Before I had to have a pocket kin/emp for my tank in case I ran up against any decent dom in a zone or I'd run out of Break Free's in no time. Considering I could shrug off immob stacking with Burn even.

No thanks, I've never been a fan of such total loss of control over a character in PvP.

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I applaud Macskull's letter as well, though it's a shame that people who claim to care about PvP are also saying that they couldn't be bothered to actually read it.

It's not surprising, though. The thing that turned PvE players away from PvP wasn't the mechanics - it was the jerks they met in the zones.

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's doesn't make things plural.

Arcanaville agrees with Mac.

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I haven't been able to say two words about PvP since sometime around I7 without it degenerating into a downward spiraling stupidfest. I made a very concerted effort to reverse that in I13 but after four straight days of being called an idiot for having an opinion (four days in which I voluntarily imposed a moratorium on responding to attacks), I gave up. Until that situation fundamentally changes, the forums in general and the PvP community as a whole is unlikely to have sufficient credibility to request meaningful changes, because open dialog is essentially impossible.

The irony is that I agree with many if not most of macskull's points, and in fact I was opposed to more than half of the dev changes for I13 for a variety of reasons, even if I was generally in agreement with the philosophy behind them, and I stated so publicly. I quickly lost the motivation to do much about it, though, and that wasn't the fault of the devs.

If I had any influence over the process, maybe 75% of the things on macskull's post wouldn't exist. But I don't, and I see no specific reason to stick my neck out to do so.

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50s: Inv/SS PB Emp/Dark Grav/FF DM/Regen TA/A Sonic/Elec MA/Regen Fire/Kin Sonic/Rad Ice/Kin Crab Fire/Cold NW Merc/Dark Emp/Sonic Rad/Psy Emp/Ice WP/DB FA/SM

Overlord of Dream Team and Nightmare Squad

Has the PvP Dev been directed to this post?

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50s: Inv/SS PB Emp/Dark Grav/FF DM/Regen TA/A Sonic/Elec MA/Regen Fire/Kin Sonic/Rad Ice/Kin Crab Fire/Cold NW Merc/Dark Emp/Sonic Rad/Psy Emp/Ice WP/DB FA/SM

Overlord of Dream Team and Nightmare Squad

Dirty thread necroer!

After I posted this thread, I PM'd both Castle and Positron about it, but never heard back from either (other than a read receipt from Castle). Mod 08 PM'd me to tell me that he'd try and promote the thread internally and have heard nothing since then. However, it's been hinted at that Sunstorm is the dev we should be trying to initiate communication with, at least on the forums.

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I thought you had spent some time with the PvP Dev on test and that maybe you had referred him here, or at least told him the same stuff.

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50s: Inv/SS PB Emp/Dark Grav/FF DM/Regen TA/A Sonic/Elec MA/Regen Fire/Kin Sonic/Rad Ice/Kin Crab Fire/Cold NW Merc/Dark Emp/Sonic Rad/Psy Emp/Ice WP/DB FA/SM

Overlord of Dream Team and Nightmare Squad

I'm of the belief that PvP was just the test bed for DR to be implemented into PvE.

I like a good conspiracy theory so don't say I didn't warn you when it happens!

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I'm against Diminishing Returns and Suppression. Everything would have been fine if people hadn't complained about being less accurate when you are faster.

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The recent changes to PvP focused the idea to make it easier for the casual PvPer have some fun and actually play around it. I've always been a casual PvPer on my different toons, I had no need to build them especially for PvP.

Now, my two most fun toons I used to play with long ago on PvP are the worst thing ever. No, seriously! What the hell is up with this? My SR scrapper and stalker have no secondary, it's worse than what it has always been, of course, I haven't slotted them for PvP but I could have fun with them, now, not anymore.

My Stalker can't stand against a blaster alone or even a regen scrapper for this matter and I could do it before without so much problem and the battle would usually be much more fun. Most of them have Aidself, Hibernate and not only blaster but I rarely see a deflected or dodge now! It used to be much more common and I could survive some seconds to strike. Now my AS + Critial Impale + Throw Spines doesn't kill the squishy blaster! (RV).

Same goes for the scrapper, it's too squishy, the only one I have some fun with is my Regen that I am currently leveling and my Invul, but Defense is -useless-. My wP toons feels very underpowered just as well, my Stone/WP Brute, SS/WP Tanker, they all could hold their own very well being able to survive a bit.

I like melee toons, felt it is much easier to play my blasters, defenders and corruptors but if melee was "lol" before, what is the point of all these changes right now?

Even my Ice/Storm controller, the hurricane nerf wasn't enough, but also the slows are much "bleh".

Why do I have to learn all this after playing PvE and PvP for over 4 years? Does it make sense?

SR is for def, but SR has no def.
Elude is a tier 9 but feels like an inspiration that lasts 2 minutes and kills your endurance.
Regen is for Regen, but Regen can't regen that well as before.
Buffers are for buffing, but they can't buff as well and sometimes they get nullified.
Melee ATs exchange the range by melee and resistance but they are almost equal do any squishy.
Ice powers are for slow but their slow on PvP is ridiculous.
Do you want the complete list? We would need a bible..

I must be another one missing the old PvP but aren't you, devs, trying to balance everything out so much that you're breaking the game? Why not leave it like PvE, at least we wouldn't have to learn the same game twice. Why not leave it as close as possible from PvE? The few people those were strong before are even more stronger because we need to build our toons to PvP and also spend billions on PvP sets, that just make PvP more elitized.

What happened to those crowded PvP zones? What happened to Virtue's Sirens Call full of players, Warburg battles, there are so much fewer players on PvP, can't you see it? Can't you admit it was an error and give up your stubborness? Just because 100 players out of 10000 says they liked it, you decide to keep your idea? Even in the beta there was a whole negative feedback about it.

The most fun I've had was in Issue 6, 7... blasters 2 shotting stalkers, stalkers killing people with 1 AS, extreme slows, fun gaking with TP foe, controllers and doms stacking holds. It was much more dynamic and fun

From a casual PvPer, you made my life harder, I'll stick with PvE for now, thank you devs.

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50 Ice/Ice/Force Blaster *
50 Ice/Fire/Fire Tanker
50 Kin/Sonic/Power Defender
50 Ice/Storm/Psi Controller
50 Stone/WP/Soul Brute
50 Spines/SR Stalker

Pinnacle | Virtue

@Black Heart

The irony is we keep seeing posts from scrappers/brutes/stalkers everyday : is my build good for PvP ?

No it's not. You use your primary attacks, and Air Superiority, Kick, Flurry deal twice more dmg in the new i13 pvp than any of your attacks.

Are you that stupid to want to use your primary attacks ? No, you're not, the system is stupid however.

Last time (and last forever probably) I checked RV, I didnt see any melee toons using AS/Kick/Flurry... They were all firing their primary attacks.

So ironical, this new PvP system is supposed to be casual and beginner friendly. So why, oh why, do all the people playing it ignore how it works ?

(Probable answer : because the ones who understood its absurdity stopped playing it... Sadly).

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I shed a single tear, pre i-13 PvP was so much fun, it was addicting, I enjoyed the challenge of making characters who weren't FoTM, and designing builds. The fast paced pvp of the past is gone. The awesome battles and fun pvp is now replaced by a dull, very unrewarding pvp that has only served to diminish the already shrinking pvp group

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Karonax - Level 50 Stone/Stone Brute
Zasz - level 50 Fire/Fire Blaster
Melkazar - Level 50 Illusion/Radiation Controller
Rodasha - Level 22 Peacebringer
Mayra - Level 32 Energy/Electric Brute
Dr. Alexander - Level 50 Empathy/Psionic Defender
Akrinos - Level 50 Bane Spider

read all of it, loved it. nice

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@Sentry4 @Sentry 4

PvP Redux is discontinued, for obvious reasons. Thanks to everyone who helped and joined.

/signed

But wait... it will get worse when Rouge comes out and both sides are 99% stalkers. All regen stalkers will be forced to reroll due to lack of perception.

I will predict RV will consist of nothing but stalkers "non-regen" and thermal corruptors for "heat exhaustion".
Now both sides will hibernate, then phaseshift and run away...

How much of that can you stomach on top of the already garbage pvp nerf system?

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"A coward dies many times before their death, the valiant taste death but once." - William Shakespeare

Learn it... OWN IT!

LOL you forgot to mention the new ranged Kings and Queens... The Domiblasternator!

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A very sad story about War Witch and the neglected kitty. http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=219670

I am new to CoX and my very few pvp experiences were quite bitter.....small suggestion from an MMO geek....devs...go to NCSOFT, get an account for Guildwars....the capped lvl 20 version, play some pvp on that game...then come back and think on how to do it for this game.
Dont shout at me fellow players, the following suggestion is merely there for its value as a focus: what is a game system, but a bunch of rules?
1. give players a dedicated third spec....their PVP spec, allow players access to any power they have in their other two sets.
2. limit them to a set number of allocatable powers...say...8 non toggle.
2. give the allocatable: 3 or 4 toggles...this would be the place to put a travel power :P
3. allow them to change their pvp spec any time outside of pvp zones.
4. when changing a pvp spec you hav access to all pvp enhancements sets: THAT YOU HAVE UNLOCKED! Then award pvp IO's for accomplishments in pvp.
5. no sure how to handle slotting but then this isnt a serious suggestion, just an idea to get the idea of how to create a pvp system, the basest suggestion would be to limit slots to a set number over the spec, but no raw number comes to mind on this...it would after all be after severe testing that such a number, and the number of powers/toggles would be arrived at.

once again this is just a sketch as suggestion, there is after all many ways to skin a cat :P.

with limited power options, but infinite ability to tweak your build, pvp would become more flavor of the MOMENT. The MMO standard of rock paper scissors would apply once again, as people would have to choose their power set, and slotting based on how they wanted their abilities to synergise.
Flame on idc, i love MMO PVP, and CoX pvp just feels wrong to me...*cries* which is just wrong because after playing Guild wars then getting a mac i was forced to play WoW, now i Can play CoX again(after being convinced towards Guild wars years ago) and i find that its PVP system just feels flawed....DEVS GO PLAY SOME GUILD WARS...you will see what i mean about skill sets....then go throw your whole DR system out :P.

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ALot of stuff was already suggested like this. We all made a big list and refined it and honed it. Then they threw this hunk of poo at us saying its just the first step. Now we are like 3 days from 2 issues later with some very minor tweaks no zone changes and very little coming on the horizon. You have two choices if you like pvp here. Choice 1 is to log on and zone out and enjoy it the best you can. Choice 2 is sweat it and pour your blood sweat and tears into it and end up quitting. Nothing we do on our end will make a single bit of difference to what actually happens to pvp.



Very well thought out post though. Just trying to save you some heartache.

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Duel me.
I will work on my sig pic more when I have time.

Damn nice post. What we all said since changes.

Im an old school PvPer from when the ladder began. I use to be part of group that turned into NDX.

You know what would be the simplist way to do all of this. Set another server up with i11 or something on it. Kill all links as such to the PvP zones and Arena and redirect them all to this extra server.

Or let us to -pvp in the command line to get on to it.

This new pvp is a laff tho. I jumped into RV for the first time in a year maybe year and a half with my Dark Blast/Emp/Psi defender. In the zone was 3 doms and 2 blasters (of any note) 2 of the 3 doms where Mind/Psi. I bought 2 bf's with me stupidly enough i thought. I died twice. in 2 and a half hours. WTF? I could out heal the damage. The doms also complained in broadcast that defenders tk is overpowered.

This PvP is a joke plain and simple. The speed has changed like ya said. Not fun.

Back to AE Farming then?

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Pssst.... all forum posts are "open letters."

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Bravo macskull.

I agree with your entire post and I applaud you.

Here’s my story:

I used to play for at least 5 hours a day (those were days when I was working - on my days off…. well, I won’t say how many hours I played on my days off). I had a wonderful group of friends I played with every day. We loved the game and enjoyed our friendships. After a few years many of my friends started PVPing. It wasn’t really my thing, but I did it none the less and had a good time doing it even though I wasn’t very good. I got killed all the time, ganked, and picked on constantly - and I should have been. It didn’t bother me that that was going on. I hadn’t put the time and effort into it others had. They should have been kicking my butt. And if I took, lets say, an emp in there, I didn’t expect her to be able to take out anyone, I expected to be buffing and healing (between my trips to the hospital).

Then i13 came along. Wham!

Everyone hated it. With a passion. The changes made no sense and rendered builds useless in PVP. What people had spent years honing were destroyed in an instant. People’s time, effort, research, practice, practice, practice now meant nothing. And for what? So that people who whined about getting ganked would stop whining? PvP (as it was) took time, effort, research and practice, practice, practice to gain the skill required to do it well. Post i13 tanks don’t tank, blasters don’t blast, healers don’t heal and controllers don’t control. This ‘making everyone equal’ thing the dev’s have done makes no sense. Archetypes are not equal and shouldn’t behave like they are. Travel suppression? Heal decay? Sigh. But I digress….

Everyone hated it. My friends hated it. I hated it (and I suck at PvP). My friends left the game. Cancelled their accounts - gone. I stayed. I tried to believe the dev’s had a reason for all this, as they stated there was. I’m still waiting. I’m tired of waiting. I log in once a month or so (with my 2 accounts) to pay the base rent and to fiddle with the base, and that’s about it.

I won’t be renewing my subscription when it comes due. And I’m sad about that. I loved this game and have a lot of time invested in it. I see changes being made, and some of them look wonderful, but they can’t make up for what has been taken away - not just the PvP changes, but the good friends who won’t return because of these changes.

I’ve waited devs. I’ve waited here to here the reasons for these changes. I think I’ve waited long enough. I14 had some great changes to it, and i15 looks the same (although I have to admit I really know very little about them - haven’t had the interest to look much) and it’s my belief that had i13 not happened this game would be golden.

(by the way - have people been flocking to the PvP zones since i13?)

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