An open letter to the Devs, re: PvP
By
Alexis_NA,
Posted on: 2009-05-07 17:04 in Everything about PvP
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LMFAO.
I like you Neeto.
ROFFL.
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The problem here is that apparently the people who did not like the I13 changes are a minority. I've been told that including PMs and feedback (both positive and negative) on the I13 beta boards, the number of players who like the new system was greater than the number of players who didn't, by more than a two to one margin.
I'm going to go out on a limb and make the assumption that most of the positive feedback (i.e. "things are way better now than they used to be!") came from people that didn't PvP much, if at all, before the changes. My question now is, where are those people? I'm not seeing more people in the zones than I did prior to I13.
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To compound on this, because I've been thinking about it quite a bit:
They say that they got more positive feedback than negative over the PvP changes. Having no reason to doubt that (it was said that most of the positive feedback was in PMs so I can't dispute it), I think it may be something like this.
* It seems as though a very vocal minority did not like the PvP changes. Coincidentally, that minority also happens to be the group that spent the most time PvPing (i.e. people who spent most of their in-game time in the arena or zones, either on live or on test). This is at least somewhat backed up by the fact that not one person I've talked to who participated in I12 PvP in any great amount prefers post-I13 over pre-I13.
* The "silent majority" that prefers post-I13 PvP over pre-I13 PvP... who and where are they? To me, it seems likely that the ones who prefer the new PvP were those that tended to always be solo in zones and didn't like teaming. It also seems like those who prefer the new PvP were those that very rarely ventured into a PvP environment under the old rules, didn't do well, and instead of trying to PvP more often and learn to work with the system, simply gave up. Are these people now spending more time in the zones?
The problem here is this: the people that spent the most time PvPing before the changes did not like the changes. Those who PvPd on occasion - some like, some don't. For those of us who PvPd a lot under the old rules, we seem to have a consensus that post-I13 PvP isn't nearly as fun as pre-I13. In regards to zone PvP, there's really nothing we can do about that because there is no way to adjust options on-the-fly as there is in the arena. That's why those of us who are still around for the PvP should be pushing for arena options. Now, I'm aware that more options is not necessarily a good thing, and the existing options have caused quite a bit of a split in the higher-end playerbase. That being said, every checkbox we can get that will get us closer to being under the system we really enjoyed would be a step forward.
[/ QUOTE ]Also to add to what mac said, by the devs taking such a cavalier approach to dealing with the situation, not only did they drive the ppl who actually enjoyed the pvp, aka the diehard pvp users. These so called pm pvp enthusiast are not even pvping now. Before these changes even a small server like triumph where I'm originally from had a faithful pvp base. Triumph used to be like a family server, i swear you like knew everyone on the server it seemed, it could be compared to a small Midwestern town.
Yet even though it was small, there were a few very skillful players to learn from there. Later alot of us branched out and did test ladders. Then these changes hit, supposedly for the casual users, but as it stands alot if not most of them don't even like this incarnation of pvp so they don't pvp even still.
My once thriving small server lost most of it's vets, and those of us who stayed moved to freedom, to actually pvp, save a few that stayed and hates the shear size of freedom.
This melting pot is a flop, they won't admit it but it failed, we new this would happen in beta, but we were ignored. They decided to take the easy route instead of really addressing what the issues were.
Instead of dr'ng us all, to make certain builds more viable, why not just buff those builds in particular? Instead of mez resist, why not just make BF's last a bit longer? or something anything but that silly resist.
But as it stands, we are still, those who these changes were made to please are not. Because if your a casual pvp'r, it doesn't matter what is done to the system your going to still be a casual pvp'r. The devs dropped the ball alienating their long time pvp player base the way they did, and as a result... those of us that stayed are still paying in the form of our friends left, great competitors left, overall numbers diminished, and really thats the only thing DR actually accomplished it diminished our pvp player base considerably.
The funny thing is, even though you seem like one of the whiners that got the changes made in the first place, you're probably still bad..------Macskull on Crop_of_shaolin
http://ravens-wins.mybrute.com
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Before these changes even a small server like triumph where I'm originally from had a faithful pvp base. Triumph used to be like a family server, i swear you like knew everyone on the server it seemed, it could be compared to a small Midwestern town.
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Who am I !
!!
Nice post Ravens.
Sadly what was a fun game with a lot of potential to grow has been poorly handled. I could summon a number of examples for this but I just don't have the interest anymore. The current state of the game is making it easy for players like me to make the decision to jump ship.
With the amount of features offered in CO alone it blows CoX out of the water. As for the quality of their PvP I don't know, but even if it ends up being worse, I have more faith in their development team to make positive adjustments then I do in this one.
Reap what you sow.
A very sad story about War Witch and the neglected kitty. http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=219670
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Originally Posted by Black_Barrier
Guess it's hard to click while actively trying to keep the drool away from the keyboard...
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I could play to CO, and I really dont think that CoX's playerbase will migrate there, at least not the ppl who have been there for some time and are addicted to its mechanics.
For me CO is closer to WoW than to CoX. For the PvP i just tested one arena, so I cant really say : sure, it cant be worse than i13 pvp, but nothing can beat that in term of absurdity anyway...
For the PvE part : CoX excellent mechanics and orginal gameplay + the MA + power customization incoming = I dont see myself leaving this game anytime soon for another WoW-like generic mmorpg.
This is a FU#$%!& JOKE!
Well there are many changes I didn't/don't like, but attack powers from Pool power sets doing more than those from the primary power sets?
BS!
why didnt they just make a i12 option , they could make no heal decay and no dr but NOT a i12 option ? come on now .
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why didnt they just make a i12 option , they could make no heal decay and no dr but NOT a i12 option ? come on now .
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Because this would be admitting that people would rather PvP in i12 than in the crap they gave us. While most people who that issue was intended for think that it's even harder now (and that's completely understandable), the Devs still say they are happy with the way PvP is and won't change it. Honestly, I don't understand it--I think they should just admit they made a mistake and revoke the entire thing.
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@Siphonic
RIP PX, GMW, and the game that used to be fun.
Still playing for reasons unknown.
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why didnt they just make a i12 option , they could make no heal decay and no dr but NOT a i12 option ? come on now .
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Because this would be admitting that people would rather PvP in i12 than in the crap they gave us. While most people who that issue was intended for think that it's even harder now (and that's completely understandable), the Devs still say they are happy with the way PvP is and won't change it. Honestly, I don't understand it--I think they should just admit they made a mistake and revoke the entire thing.
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I think by their saying "we are happy with how PvP is now," I believe they mean "we think PvP is balanced," instead of meaning "we think we've achieved a good PvP population." I don't agree with that, but that's how I see it.
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
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Well there are many changes I didn't/don't like, but attack powers from Pool power sets doing more than those from the primary power sets?
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You nailed it perfectly. Actually I didnt care much about i13 PvP until I went in the zone with my SS/FA brute, decided to respec her toward pvp... and saw the absurdity : i cant use my attacks there, I have to take stupid pool attacks that are useless in PvE and end up with the same chain as everyone else (at least those who understand the mechanics and still play zone PvP, aka a small minority)
How is this supposed to be intuitive ? How is this supposed to be fun ?
Seriously, I'm still waiting for an answer on this precise point. Cause it's the total opposite of the rest of the game design and philosophy : freedom, choices and customization.
The devs must listen to their playerbase on this point and stop to pretend everything is working as they intend to. That I don't believe. And I'm pretty sure they're not happy with i13 pvp, they just didnt admit it officially yet. How can a game developper pretend he's happy with a change when the large majority of the community using this feature despise it and leave ?
As I said in another thread, I really love this game, and it deserves a much better PvP !
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I believe the Players that like i13 -i14 PvP are majority PvEers (i'm not a PvEer).
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I spend probably 99% of my time in PvE. Before i13, I would putter around in the pvp zones from time to time, usually getting my butt kicked, occasionally beating someone.
Post-i13, the vast majority of my characters are worthless in pvp now, due to diminishing returns, controls/heals/debuffs/buffs not working the way they should, etc.
As a primarily pve player, and only once-in-a-while pvper, I cannot begin to comprehend what the freaking hell the devs were thinking with this pile of horse-puckey that was i13 pvp. I hate it. Hate hate hate it. To the point that I don't even TRY to pvp anymore. I only go out there to sit and get the time-spent badges, shivans, nukes, and to farm (yeah, you heard me, devs!) the "kill other players" badge with my friend.
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Works in Progress: Thug/TA, Merc/Poison, Thug/Pain, Ninja/Pain, Thug/Storm
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why didnt they just make a i12 option , they could make no heal decay and no dr but NOT a i12 option ? come on now .
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Because this would be admitting that people would rather PvP in i12 than in the crap they gave us. While most people who that issue was intended for think that it's even harder now (and that's completely understandable), the Devs still say they are happy with the way PvP is and won't change it. Honestly, I don't understand it--I think they should just admit they made a mistake and revoke the entire thing.
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We can't have Positron's and Castle's feeling get hurt by admitting they were wrong. I mean after all, they are the self proclaimed PvP overlords. They know everything about PvP tactics and strategies amirite? Even though they used a Team build ice/kin controller in a duel match against a tanker, and that was basis for their "balance" when all this nonsense was being beta tested. Oh heavens no, they'd get butt hurt if a "i12" option was implemented. Can't have that around here, no sir.
Bring back old PVP! 
i bet money there going 2 nerf the power pools before they fix anything, this is a shame, i just came back from a 400 day hiatus to see this....the hell i activated for, after this month im done....you know what, naa forget that, im done now, this is sickening
I love how you need to check 5 boxes, take retarded powers, get banned trying to PL new toon after each nerf just to somehow try to "enjoy" pvp in this game...
Devs don't have time, ok fine..then why ffs it is written on the box hey we have pvp...you don't care anyway..just disable it like base raids and all this evil pvp'ers will leave to other game so they don't bother you. Don't have time for such things? Then DO NOT IMPLEMENT IT IN THE GAME ON FIRST PLACE TY.
They should put a counter on your playing screen that you can opt to activate that will tell you how many players are in a pvp zone, this would allow players to know when they can go do some pvp instead of making one sweep of RV and then going to do something else.
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They should put a counter on your playing screen that you can opt to activate that will tell you how many players are in a pvp zone, this would allow players to know when they can go do some pvp instead of making one sweep of RV and then going to do something else.
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It was suggested years ago that some sort of display board showing the numbers of each faction (including ones in hide) for each zone would be a tremendous boon.
Some sort of warning message when the numbers get lopsided such as "Heroes are being overrun in Siren's Call and the forces of Arachnos are about to infiltrate Steel canyon. Help us NOW!"
Tied into:
an actual zone event where some arachnos DO appear in steel canyon if the message goes unheeded. (event would also spawn some destructable objects and the arachnos would basically go mayhem mission style on Steel Canyon)
Add in some things where responding during a "warning period" grants extra rewards and you would entice more people to pvp in one day than everything Castle has ever done in this game.
Or just make pvp a completely different game and then wonder why no one wants to do it... /e baffle.
But that's half the fun when you have people in charge and listening to people that have absolutely no idea how to attempt balance, let alone integrate it in a meaningful way into the game.
You should probably bring up something about the Elusivity Nerf they put in thanks to Widows ruining defense as a Protection type. All of my Defense-Based toons are now mangled (My melee crab, my Kat/SR). Perhaps that nerf could have been aimed directly at Widow's power effects in PvP, rather than everyone?
I barely ever PvP, and I could stand the I13 changes... a little (The only thing I liked was the added -Range DeBuff on Taunts, it gave m a reason to take them, after all). Once the Elusivity Nerf happened I just gave up. Dont ruin everyone because you released a class with the ability to be that amazing without testing it properly.
Also, this thread is just amazing, I was sick of Lurking it and had to vent. 
@Mazzo Grave
Webmaster Grave, Virtueverse!
Energy/Energy Blaster Guide
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Originally Posted by BackAlleyBrawler
you *******!!!!
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You should probably bring up something about the Elusivity Nerf they put in thanks to Widows ruining defense as a Protection type. All of my Defense-Based toons are now mangled (My melee crab, my Kat/SR). Perhaps that nerf could have been aimed directly at Widow's power effects in PvP, rather than everyone?
I barely ever PvP, and I could stand the I13 changes... a little (The only thing I liked was the added -Range DeBuff on Taunts, it gave m a reason to take them, after all). Once the Elusivity Nerf happened I just gave up. Dont ruin everyone because you released a class with the ability to be that amazing without testing it properly.
Also, this thread is just amazing, I was sick of Lurking it and had to vent.
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Why do you blame the elusivity changes on Widows? I think it was more noticable on the SS/SR and SS/Ice Tanks and brutes that all started appearing after elusivity was put in. They were much more powrful then widows were. With a blast and taunt they could kite, have the same defense as widows, and do more damage.
But, like you said defenses are useless in pvp now. While many archetypes got damage buffs, widows got their damage cut. So now fortunatas do less damage then psi defenders, have no secondary effects to fall back on, and weren't granted the inherent resistances at squishy levels. They have absolutely nothing going for them.
PS. Arachnos soldiers never had elusivity, so the nerf to it should not have affected your melee crab at all.
Yep, without Elude running, my Widow is now dead in 3 shots. This is after I IOd the hell out of it (without buying any purps).
In the PvE game he has 55% melee, 60% range and 48% AoE defense. Those numbers drop 20-25% as soon as I enter a PvP zone. Don't even get me started on the 15% damage nerf. It takes me 10 hits to kill a squishy now and that's if they decide to be nice enough to stand around and let me wail on them.
In return out of Elude I'm dead in 3 hits. With Elude running it's 6 hits or less.
With the amount of +Acc and +Tohit you can get blueside my widow is now collecting dust along with my kat/sr scrapper and any of my support toons since all these stupid changes to PvP were implemented.
Way to [censored] up the only thing that was keeping me playing the game Devs.
loldefense
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I loved MacSkull's OP in this thread, and I liked his suggestion about adding more Arena options. If they added the flexibility in Arena to pick from all the maps available in MA, you'd have custom zone PvP on demand.
Speaking as a PVE'er, even though the intent of the PVP changes was laudable, the problems Mac and others have pointed out just seem to doom PvP from ever getting popular. If I like to play a buffer/healer in PvE, I'm going to be confused and disappointed by PvP.
But more than that, just like Firespray posted earlier, new PvP essentially requires dual builds and dooms defense-based sets. The build you've invested hundreds of millions into for PvE is almost certainly going to be laughably sub-optimal in PvP. I'm not a game designer but it seems to be that it's user-hostile to create a system in which uber attacks like Blaze are suddenly neutered, while joke attacks like Flurry are buffed. Absurd.
Freedom: Blazing Larb, Fiery Fulcrum, Sardan Reborn, Arctic-Frenzy, Wasabi Sam, Mr Smashtastic.
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Yep, without Elude running, my Widow is now dead in 3 shots. This is after I IOd the hell out of it (without buying any purps).
In the PvE game he has 55% melee, 60% range and 48% AoE defense. Those numbers drop 20-25% as soon as I enter a PvP zone. Don't even get me started on the 15% damage nerf. It takes me 10 hits to kill a squishy now and that's if they decide to be nice enough to stand around and let me wail on them.
In return out of Elude I'm dead in 3 hits. With Elude running it's 6 hits or less.
With the amount of +Acc and +Tohit you can get blueside my widow is now collecting dust along with my kat/sr scrapper and any of my support toons since all these stupid changes to PvP were implemented.
Way to [censored] up the only thing that was keeping me playing the game Devs.
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I could have sworn you said you'd already cancelled :P
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PS. Arachnos soldiers never had elusivity, so the nerf to it should not have affected your melee crab at all.
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My Softcapped PvE defense is null and void in PvP, it's dragged down to 28% or so with all my toggles on, set bonuses or no. That may just be diminishing returns, but it's still a load of BS.
@Mazzo Grave
Webmaster Grave, Virtueverse!
Energy/Energy Blaster Guide
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Originally Posted by BackAlleyBrawler
you *******!!!!
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Now, I'm aware that more options is not necessarily a good thing, and the existing options have caused quite a bit of a split in the higher-end playerbase. That being said, every checkbox we can get that will get us closer to being under the system we really enjoyed would be a step forward.
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Funniest thing is, they've given back almost everything. I doubt they will give back the mez changes, but those are...livable and easy to learn. A no squishy res and we will be as close as we can get.
(Lol getting options to go back to I12 almost in full; but not admitting it was a failure.)
OBTW: Triumph side, server-wise, I haven't seen anything but a decline pvp and Subsequent migration of pvpers to freedom.