An open letter to the Devs, re: PvP
By
Alexis_NA,
Posted on: 2009-05-07 17:04 in Everything about PvP
Agreed entirely. Signed.
/signed.
I13 is still one of the worst issues in this game's history. And not just because of what they did to pvp.
A couple of other things that came out with that issue were not what this game needed. I'll leave it at that.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
Quote:
That quote above from Posi is from 11/05/2008. I couldn't find the post where it was explained that this was just the first step in a series of changes. It's been 15 months now. Are we going to see this finished, or is it officially abandoned?
|
Originally Posted by Positron
PvP from now on will be on our priority list. If something isnt working out, well be in there tweaking it and making it work, for the entire future of the product, not just Issue 13.
|
OP /signed
Like anyone from i13 beta has said, this isn't news to anyone. It was all said before beta was open. It needs to be heard. I'm subscribing to this thread just to keep it alive.
Great write-up Mac. I know this is an old thread, but it needs to stay alive.
Can we get this thread stickied?
Can we get this thread stickied to Positron's and Castles foreheads?!
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
Castle and Posi's vision isn't on PvP anymore. It's on End Game.
PvP USED to be the end game, but the majority of people didn't really like the old engine and no one likes the new engine so they are giving up.
I doubt we will see any major PvP changes unless this game lasts another 2 years. Once End Game is released, maybe they will come back and address the old Niche players they left behind - Namely the PvP crowd and base raiders/designers
I disagree. I have a suspicion that we will see the return of base raids with either GR or the issue following with a new reward - SG merits (or something similar). This was the vision that Castle spoke about during the beginning of I13. Developer time seems to run much slower than player time. Things that they discuss as being worked on frequently takes six months to a year to make it into the game.
And as to the SG merits: Next time you are in the game, open your SG settings for permissions and look towards the bottom of the list. There is a permission setting for who can spend SG merits.
50s: Inv/SS PB Emp/Dark Grav/FF DM/Regen TA/A Sonic/Elec MA/Regen Fire/Kin Sonic/Rad Ice/Kin Crab Fire/Cold NW Merc/Dark Emp/Sonic Rad/Psy Emp/Ice WP/DB FA/SM
Overlord of Dream Team and Nightmare Squad
Quote:
I think everything else (CoP, base raids, base issues, End Game, GR etc) is in the forefront ahead of pvp.|
Originally Posted by Bionic_Flea
I disagree. I have a suspicion that we will see the return of base raids with either GR or the issue following with a new reward - SG merits (or something similar). This was the vision that Castle spoke about during the beginning of I13. Developer time seems to run much slower than player time. Things that they discuss as being worked on frequently takes six months to a year to make it into the game.
And as to the SG merits: Next time you are in the game, open your SG settings for permissions and look towards the bottom of the list. There is a permission setting for who can spend SG merits. |
I don't expect any major changes to pvp, except maybe a tweek here or there.
EDIT: I can't honestly see them doing anything major with pvp, when there has been an utter lack of actual dev story content for AGES (sooo, how is that Coming Storm coming along?
). If they focused on anything major for pvp, the majority of the player base would riot.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
What pisses me off most atm is the fact that they could just revert back to the i12 system with extremely minimal effort, so it would require next to 0 dev time. So, you'd avoid pissing off PvE'rs, you'd make almost every PvP'r very happy, and you'd likely gain back a few subs from retired PvP'rs. It's a win-win-win as far as I can see. I'd think that saving face would rank below monetary gain, but there I go again using logic.
If they are unable to do the above because of incoming PvP changes, then I just shudder at the thought of continued 'balance' of the current system. You need to get the foundation right before you build on it...and the foundation was right before i13.
Quote:
As fugly as i12 pvp was it was waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better than the "system" (I use that term loosely) they have now.|
Originally Posted by Psoma
What pisses me off most atm is the fact that they could just revert back to the i12 system with extremely minimal effort, so it would require next to 0 dev time. So, you'd avoid pissing off PvE'rs, you'd make almost every PvP'r very happy, and you'd likely gain back a few subs from retired PvP'rs. It's a win-win-win as far as I can see. I'd think that saving face would rank below monetary gain, but there I go again using logic.
If they are unable to do the above because of incoming PvP changes, then I just shudder at the thought of continued 'balance' of the current system. You need to get the foundation right before you build on it...and the foundation was right before i13. |
...
What's funny is the devs told the pvpers to test it out before jumping up and down. The pvpers did and told them the system was full of fail (granted a FEW changes have been made in Arena options to make it less so, but that don't mean jack shite for zone play) and predicted the gutting of the pvp community and complete lack of gaining any meaningful "extra" pvp pop, and yet those changes are still here. . .
What's funny is the situation with merits and BM now was also mentioned and predicted. I believe it was also issue 13. . .
I'll stop here. Remembering the epic fail of that time period for this game pisses me off.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
You should make that bottom part your sig. I love it.
The problem here is that you use logic to argue with people who uses feelings.
Logic can be ignored, feelings can not.
The Devs feel that what they are doing to PvP is right. What does it matter if it actually works or not as long as it feels right doing it?
You just simply can not argue with people like that.
Quote:
Can't possibly happen. By doing that, they would admit to the entire playerbase (and really the entire video game world) that they basically destroyed a game. To admit to one of the biggest failures in MMO history is not something any developer will do. We know it happened, they know it happened, but they will NEVER actually admit it happened.
|
Originally Posted by Psoma
What pisses me off most atm is the fact that they could just revert back to the i12 system with extremely minimal effort, so it would require next to 0 dev time.
|
Oh, I know you're right. But I'd be willing to pretend it's not a reversion to i12-type PvP if they did it and claimed it as a brand-new overhaul.
Hehe. Well, I guess we'll see if they learned ANYTHING from their mistakes when GR comes out.
Quote:
They didn't. Remember that vid from HeroCon about GR? There was a dude who asked about pvp but posi basically sent him to some random place aka "gtfo son".
|
Originally Posted by Supermax
Hehe. Well, I guess we'll see if they learned ANYTHING from their mistakes when GR comes out.
|
Quote:
Ummm . . . base raiding IS PvP. |
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
I think everything else (CoP, base raids, base issues, End Game, GR etc) is in the forefront ahead of pvp.
I don't expect any major changes to pvp, except maybe a tweek here or there. EDIT: I can't honestly see them doing anything major with pvp, when there has been an utter lack of actual dev story content for AGES (sooo, how is that Coming Storm coming along? ). If they focused on anything major for pvp, the majority of the player base would riot. |
I also predict that we will get the option to remove PvP shields as an option for arena. Once that is done, anyone who wants to can choose to have I12 style battles in the arena. I could live with that.
50s: Inv/SS PB Emp/Dark Grav/FF DM/Regen TA/A Sonic/Elec MA/Regen Fire/Kin Sonic/Rad Ice/Kin Crab Fire/Cold NW Merc/Dark Emp/Sonic Rad/Psy Emp/Ice WP/DB FA/SM
Overlord of Dream Team and Nightmare Squad
Quote:
yeah had a brain fart there.|
Originally Posted by Bionic_Flea
Ummm . . . base raiding IS PvP.
I also predict that we will get the option to remove PvP shields as an option for arena. Once that is done, anyone who wants to can choose to have I12 style battles in the arena. I could live with that. |
what I mean was the base pathing issues they mentioned
and yeah that would be good for arena, but what about zone play?
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
Quote:
What about the DPA changes as well as mez duration/protection?
|
Originally Posted by Bionic_Flea
Ummm . . . base raiding IS PvP.
I also predict that we will get the option to remove PvP shields as an option for arena. Once that is done, anyone who wants to can choose to have I12 style battles in the arena. I could live with that. |
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
Quote:
Forgot about those, but those don't bother me as much as Travel Suppression, Diminishing Returns, Heal Decay, and PvP armor. |
Originally Posted by Reiraku
What about the DPA changes as well as mez duration/protection?
|
I could probably live with those as well if the numbers were a lot lower than they are. I think it would be alright if one thermal shield (or whatever) gave full effect, but the second one gave a fraction of the protection the first one gave, and the third one gives the few percentages it gives now in zones.
But that's just me. I know a bunch of you wouldn't agree.
50s: Inv/SS PB Emp/Dark Grav/FF DM/Regen TA/A Sonic/Elec MA/Regen Fire/Kin Sonic/Rad Ice/Kin Crab Fire/Cold NW Merc/Dark Emp/Sonic Rad/Psy Emp/Ice WP/DB FA/SM
Overlord of Dream Team and Nightmare Squad
Quote:
The mez system is the single biggest change in terms of high-end (lol) arena PvP these days because even with TS and HD off it's start-stop-start-stop and there's nothing you can do about it. I don't think the DPA balancing was all bad, it's just the weird things it did that make it suck (I'm looking at you, pool powers, AoEs, and Ice Blast). These days it's largely become a non-issue because people have just stopped using the attack sets that worked well before that don't work as well now (really there aren't many, Ice Blast is the big one here, and maybe the Defender version of Psi) and have respec'd out of the attacks that aren't useful under the new rules.|
Originally Posted by Reiraku
What about the DPA changes as well as mez duration/protection?
|
The mez changes? I'd love to see something done about the mez system because in its current form it's pretty bad if you've got two competitive teams going at each other. In zone it's not too bad (ok, I get tagged by a random hold, and it's worn off by the time I land from my jump arc) unless the other team provides a coordinated follow-up to the mez, but in arena against another organized team it's pretty terrible. The only problem is that many people won't be satisfied until we get a full return to the old system, but there's another group of people that thinks the best solution is somewhere between the new and the old.
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
Quote:
*Insert shameless thread endorsement here.*
|
Originally Posted by macskull
The mez system is the single biggest change in terms of high-end (lol) arena PvP these days because even with TS and HD off it's start-stop-start-stop and there's nothing you can do about it. I don't think the DPA balancing was all bad, it's just the weird things it did that make it suck (I'm looking at you, pool powers, AoEs, and Ice Blast). These days it's largely become a non-issue because people have just stopped using the attack sets that worked well before that don't work as well now (really there aren't many, Ice Blast is the big one here, and maybe the Defender version of Psi) and have respec'd out of the attacks that aren't useful under the new rules.
The mez changes? I'd love to see something done about the mez system because in its current form it's pretty bad if you've got two competitive teams going at each other. In zone it's not too bad (ok, I get tagged by a random hold, and it's worn off by the time I land from my jump arc) unless the other team provides a coordinated follow-up to the mez, but in arena against another organized team it's pretty terrible. The only problem is that many people won't be satisfied until we get a full return to the old system, but there's another group of people that thinks the best solution is somewhere between the new and the old. |
I guess I'm in the minority here. I prefer most aspects of the new PvP.
I have gotten used to DR. You don't "have" to have billion inf builds to be somewhat competitive now. I understand how this makes some people angry, gone are the days of buying your wins.
I think the new changes have in some ways made holds/stuns useful, Pre "new" PvP a break-free pretty much invalidated anything my controller could do in PvP other than De buffs , A 6 seconds Hold is better than no hold. Since i13, I play my troller in pvp now, and get kills, on my own. crazy.
Fights actually have a end now. (mostly talking arena on this one), You no longer have fights that last till one or the other side just quits. Zzzzzzz.
TS. I like it sometimes, when I'm chasing someone, I hate it, when I'm being chased. you can, sometimes kill a person in Zone PvP now w/o them streaking to base every time.
HD. This is one I'm still on the fence about, for my toons with 1 or 2 heals its not a huge deal. For my EMP, it kinds sucks. For people who used to load up a tray full of greens I can see how this would make em QQ.
also, You can turn off the TS, HD, DR, for Arena events. I know this make it 100% like pre i13, but its closer to what some people want
just my 2 inf
/dons flame proof underoos
on behalf of my whole army of worthless defenders, whose entire power sets benefit neither themselves or their teammates, thanks to DR....
/signed
but most importantly on behalf of my first pvp defender, who did not know that being soft capped to all types and having max resists would be equal to those who did not have any defense or resistances.
double /signed
hey everyone i'm a blaster with no seconday set, half the hit points and half the damage! YAY thanks devs!
the system is bad and those who designed it and support it should feel bad.