An open letter to the Devs, re: PvP

Defense in PvP has either been godmode or meaningless. They haven't been able to find a sweet spot for it.

Probably because the devs don't actually PvP at a significant level.

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Good Job mac i would give up All of my toons and cash for old pvp back

haha why do we even talk about zone pvp zone pvp is dead,
in the zone you only fight stalkers that team with 3 and if they dont kill you in 1 shot they hiber and hide and try again its a shankfast , the only real thing that can deal with them is a scrapper and there you go if theres 10 hero''s in the zone 8 are scrappers
and 2 of them are oped psy/em blasters , too make the zone even more fun they nerf the pvp droppes soo you can kill a 1000 without even getting a single drop,
enough trashtalk about what some people call (zone) pvp but really just is become a place too hide and shiftrun battlefield:Bad company here i come

u mad, dutch?

yes i am mad about what this game has become yes ,are you saying i am wrong dont you only see stalkers and scrappers and psy em's in the zone?

And tanks, and therms, and really bad brutes.


Everyone knows that there is a melee imbalance atm. They dumbed down playing in pvp so bad that if you have a couple brain cells that can fire together its pretty much impossible to die on a melee toon. People will almost always play to the path of least resistance. Lets be honest, which one is someone going to play a low hp troller that needs ioing, accos and skill to live on or a regin? If you are red side which do you think they will play a dom or corr that is low hp and can be seen or a stalker they can afk and rp on while in zones?

The good news is that you don't really need to worry about scrappers in zones. If you are competent and not afraid to team they are very little challenge with almost no fear of them killing you. As far as stalkers, there are only a handful of decent ones in this game so as long as you are willing to team they are very little to worry about as well.


I am not sure if you know or not so I will toss you a heads up, you stand still way to much in zone and need to work on breaking los more. You can do a lot to negate even the best of stalkers by working on those. And if you do and they still get you, its really okay to tip your cap and say gg instead of raging.

Errrr, squishies may get 40% base resistance but that gets DR'd to around 28%. Adding a resist-based epic/patron shield will get that up to 35-40%, and it requires a lot of buff stacking to get a squishy into the 45-50% range. Meanwhile your Tanker/Brute/Scrapper is getting higher resists without that base resistance (Brutes/Scrappers get 10% but Tankers get 0%) and can also benefit moderately from external buffs. Add in the fact that the melee builds usually have much more HP and good self-heals and there's no question which AT is better off under the zone rules in terms of survivability.

what macskull is trying to say is that i13 brought greater survivability for melee toons, and nerfed the survivability of most squishies in possesion of anything that resembled a brain.


ZOMG GUYS POPPING ORANGES WHILE EVADING/KICKING *** IS SO NOT FAIR.

Don't let the thread die!

A note: I've been playing another game with really balanced, objective-based PvP. I'm drafting a concept that could revamp base raids for COH using some of the concepts from that game.

I'll be running it by people like macskull and other COH hardcores to iron out any kinks before sending it to the devs.

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Damn this was a long read....glad I was at work....

Anyhow....being as I wasn't around from about I5 thru I15...(Left due to the redundency of the game back then...badge hunting isn't my thing) I will assume PVP was a "bring what you got" style pre I13. Like most PVP I have ever played certain tweaks are made to specific out of balance powers to make a level of competition between players. A couple come to mind here as PVP stands now that particularly annoy me such as Hibernate on a regen stalker?? Please. A tweak to such a thing would be make it interuptable.


Anyhow, when playing PVP I'm there for the enjoyment of good smack talk and fun among the several people that I am likely playing with because I'm on a team trying to beat a team thats trying to beat us. Everyone brings what they have to the game and some of these people realize that they are going to be primary targets. Support toons are just that...support toons...they stay in the back...try like hell to evade being hit and keep the front line standing. The high damage dealers try to lay down the dps while the containment crew is managing crowd control and get through the opposing teams defenses. Sounds like a strategy ploy to me. All the while everyone is moving as fast as they can or a carefully as needed to obtain the objective. Wait a sec....this is starting to sound like PVE. The true difference though is the intelligence of the foe.

If I am playing a support toon, I don't need you to adjust my powers. Thats what I like to do. Thats why I build these characters. What can I do with this guy? I WANT to see if my empath/ele can keep this team alive. I WANT to see if I can drain the end out of that poor hapless blaster/corrupter that got turned around on the map in the confusion of things. If I don't like what I did....I will go respec/re-enhance my powersets. I want to see if I can keep alive while a scrapper is hammering on me till help shows up (although unlikely but I'm gonna try as hard as I can all the while yelling at my team to get over here). You give me DOZENS of At's, loads of power sets, hundreds of enhancements, inspirations, temp powers, bonuses AND the ability to put these all together to make anything from a 1v1 to 100v100 arena event or 8v8 zone team. I'm creative...I can make all sorts of combinations to try. And if I am playing a toon that has a power that might be a bit much...I'll be glad to tell you. Offer a suggestion on what might help it be a bit more balanced. I'm pretty sure that suggestion wouldn't be alter the def/resistence on an entire player base to compensate for it.


I can't say I'm a fan of what I see here. I just started getting into here to see if it was at least interesting and to a point it is....I enjoy making builds that will stand up against other builds. But then I take my newly formed test toon to a PVP zone....try to find an opponent...when I do...it's "Ready!"....smack slap heal smack slap......gf. Really? Please.

Travel repression....in a zone the size of Atlas? I should be able to barrel after my quarry at the very least the same pace as him/her. Without the delay. If I'm the quarry, cool...I can be back at the safe point before he/she knows I'm gone. So much for the adrenaline rush I was getting about to be sidelined. Nothing exciting to see here folks.....move along to the next person thats gonna bolt to here. The difference here is going to be how I slotted it and do I or another on my team have a slow power? If I'm the one under a slow debuff...where's my emp with cm?

The bigger issue here though is what keeps these players from scattering all over the map? Nothing. There is no reason to stay in the red zone when we can whisk away to the safety of the containment NPC's.
Stick a flag out there. Give us a reason to be on that map with our team trying to keep each other alive. Let the Tank grab said flag THEN travel supress him. Let him try to get back to the objective with it. See if the Team can keep him standing all the while. Better yet....Stick a cookie out there. I'll stay and fight all day for that! A real good chance my whole sg would be up for that.....red and blue sides.

No. Ok. Give us a hill. You fall down it....you don't get up. Last one still standing wins. Load next team.Granted this wouldn't be open zone but. Losers regroup and head back in for another round with another team. If you gotta wait in line for your turn....good...gives you time to sort out where you went wrong and what to adjust. Did I need another set? Should I get my Storm/kin troller instead of my Ill/Rad?

Open Zone? The turret idea is good but seem a tad strong to me for 8v8. But can't seem to manage 16v16 so far. Justice by the way.

For those that want to duel it up...there's an arena...set it up anyway you see fit...It's very flexible like that. Don't come to an all out zone figuring to one on one it when I'm out there with 8 people I've known for years or just met and we slap you on the way by because you must be a sub for the other team. Then yelp about it? Please.

I'd like to revisit this and mostly would like the Devs to revisit this but in any case...Good write up Mac. I still see no red name replies with at least polite "yes we see it" note but they do get the questions every time they appear....so they know people like you are looking at them...Keep it up......

Oddly enough....this thread from a day ago:

http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=219184

COH has all the mechanics to pull off good, objective-based PvP that would be fun and encourage teamwork.

They're really just going to have to invest in it for that to happen, though.

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Sooo.... I can't help but notice the lack of red names in this thread >_>. I already gave up on the devs listening to pvpers @ i14, but it's still disappointing that this well thought out thread has (apparently) gotten no attention from the CoH dev team after 13 pages.

That aside, I agree with macskull's post 99%, and i take out that 1% only because I'm a fitekluber and mac doesn't like us :P

signed as well. Just stumbled onto this thread, but then again, I'm not on forums much.

I am one of those veterans since PVP was introduced to the COH game. It is truthfully discrediting and embarrassing to the programming and decision makers who have implemented such a decline to a initial remarkable experience. I actually quit the game a few months ago, due to PVP becoming less than entertaining. I came back mainly for the reason I've stayed this long....I'm big on superheroes since being a kid, and wanted to again simply see those comic powers in action. Unfortunately, PVE does not do it for me anymore.

I do want bring front and center two obvious inconsistencies in previously applied logic (in terms of nerfed pvp effects). That would be the following...

WEBNADE: This is eerily similar to the issue that caused the ice slows to get nerfed, which everyone knew was coming because it created such a disadvantage. So, with that stated, why is webnade still untouched? I have disputes with players now laughing because I refuse to get ss to allow escaping this power. As a veteran who "was" indeed quite good in PVP, let me say that you get tired of having to continuously create builds, drop pwrs you like, but are now useless in pvp, only to add pwers you dislike so that you can survive. When you have to adjust to the programming, instead of the programming adjusting to the players, that means the development team is failing in their role of responsibilities related to mproving PVP gameplay. Period. Please be consistent and address WEBNADE. Preferrably not 6 months from now.

SPIRIT SHARK: When this first hit the scene, I saw nerfing almost immediately. That was almost a year ago. LOL...Here you have a power that does not only significant lethal damage, but it has a hold and DOT functionality, not to mention a disruption to where you can't heal yourself (unless regen or slotted with multiple -interruption IO's) once your hit with this. Now, this pwr is primarily in the hands of the same archtype that literally changed pvp gameplay overnight with HIDE and AS, and now a very lethal ranged attack along with the HIDE, PHASE, HIBE, and DEFENSE options. P-L-E-A-S-E....stop insulting the players intelligence, and simply stay consistent with your suppose to strategy for PVP, as well a return on the monthly investment we are making in this game.

I could really open up some old wounds, but I will leave it be. I will finish up on something MAC did not address, which I warned the DEVS of 3 yrs ago. When you do NERF...stop doing it to an extreme, and target a median for your adjustment. For example, don't increase say Dam, from 25% to 75%...try, 50% first. Especially, with the current track record of not rescinding flawed implementations made, but simply leaving them as is and for the PVPer's to deal with...or adjust to.

Perhaps the goal, is to cause pvper's to migrate out, so you can officially shut PVP down. This would be a strategy that looks like it is working.

The feedback is overwhelmingly consistent from those who play in the zones. Perhaps you should do something that is customer friendly, and provide and detailed response as to why this feedback has gone without utilization??

Hi pvp'ers. I am a pve'er and shown nothing but hate for you people, but I agree with Mac. Arrogance on the Devs part that they 'know whats best' even for a small segment of the community is killing the game.

This Dev team needs to stop with Jack Emmerts 'vission' of father knows best and realize they havent got an F-ing clue as to what is 'fun' and what isnt. Sadly they wont read this because that requires work and thought as opposed to smoking crack and making changes based off a shroom induced vission.



Ps Hey Mac, thanks for all those Bmls runs on virtue. Youre a good guy in game and those were lots of fun....if really slow because of my Vg mates.

2 thumbs up, simply amazing.