An open letter to the Devs, re: PvP

it seems to me that not only will pvp ever be made good again, but they flat out do not care in the least. if they did, they would have already said so.

i see nothing and hear nothing, so therefore, i have my answer.

I like old School PVP better, what the Derv done was ruin it for me also, I had nice Scrapper i was working on, I just finish his build off not to long ago, he was an pvp beast, but then changes came and My Scrapper Sucks now, Thanks DERV for Ruining pvp for me.

I also think they don't no how to make PVP work with this game, go Study how other games do it or just Scrap it and start fresh.

Thank you for taking the time to write this...

I Haven't read ALL of it (YET) but I agree with your assesment of things.

(As someone coming back to the game after a LONG time)
The main points I really applaud are:

1) suppression sucks: It kills the feel of the game.....I hate the feeling of suppression it just feels bad, and wrong.....It disrupts the flow of the game....there must be a better way to handle things than this.

2) Control based AT's: There is not much point it seems in being a prototypical controller type class. You are better off doing damage....The attack chains are short enough and mez's suck so much now that all you really need is one single taget hold which means you might as well play a blaster and at least do some damage. I did HATE having to take a tray full of BF's but it was better than what we have now IMO. I would rather see an INSP vendor in the hospital than worthless controls.

I used to enjoy PvP in Siren's Call in particular. Siren's Call is dead on the 3 or 4 servers I had characters on.

I recall my team giving chase to the Stalker that just murdered one of our number. Off they went up and around a block or two. "Drive him towards me!", I cried. I wasn't likely able to kill him but I could sure as hell stop him in his tracks. Dominate was my favorite power. It was my hammer. Sure enough, here comes that Stalker whipping by and WHAM, he skids to a halt gripping his head in pain. "HERE!", I yell to my teamies and then vengeance was ours.

I used to be able to act like a mind controller when playing my mind controller. If I had the time, I may be able to defeat him myself. But usually it was a race between his team or mine as to who got there first and consequently who died.

I want to support this Thread and get PvP'rs back into PvP.

Ah . . . the good old days. When you could walk into Siren's Call and actually worry about being Assassinated.

Ok so numerous times now we have all been told (HeroCon2009, Various Meet & Greets throughout 2010) That after the incarnate system was up and running, PvP, Base Raids, and bases would all be the focus of some serious attention...... Has that time finally come? or are we again going to be swept under the rug after being bound and gagged?

**Edit: 16 pages of posts, 16 months posted and sticky, and not even 1 Red Name can throw us the smallest of bones here.....

I think the devs are still getting over the last time they gave in to whiners' demands. Makes sense to avoid making the same mistake twice don't you think?

Keep in mind that the devs have commented on pvp. (Most of these "very well constructed criticisms" came after)
Ignoring these comments, being impatient with what is to come, and/or expecting only the changes you want to happen first... is what causes most to be so bitter about the devs when it comes to pvp in this game.

It's time to stop being blind to the changes that have occured. The excuses used by many to complain about I13 have been countered in many ways... yet bitterness prevents these changes from being acknowledged.

The quality of PvP in this game has improved over time in the last year or two. Sadly though... the quality of PvPers has gotten worse at a faster rate. Go figure.

P.S. LOL @ ur ragequit ultimatum and can you donate ur stuff to someone less fortunate?

You assume a lot in your posts. You say there's too many whiners and a lack of skill and effort. How do you know? That's a pretty large blanketed suggestion. I can't speak for everyone, and I'm not an arrogant person by nature, but I'm actually pretty good at PvP in this game and there's plenty others that are far better. And I'd peg them to beat the people that dog them in game and on the boards regardless of what they're using. Skill isn't an issue. Generating new tactics and team makeups isn't either since most of those that are figuring things out are the same ones that have been for the last 15 issues.

The point of backing up your point with specifics is that others can understand where you're coming from and either counter or see something that changes their mind. I agree with several of the things you noted in your reply to Mac.

"Currently most people think that healing is the only form of effective support."
I do and don't agree with this. Not the only form of effective support, but likely the best option for support while teamed with a character that can effect adequate damage. Though even that statement is dependent on what exactly you're doing. You can't argue the effectiveness of a character with strong team buffs and two ranged click heals. I'm sure there are plenty of scenarios where a bubbler or a stormy or a kin would be a better choice. Again.. depends on what you're doing and what you're trying to accomplish.

"-Too many cannot understand that bubblers and shieldbots should be built to support melee toons.
-Too many believe that their melee toons do not require support"
Problem with this statement is that 9 times out of 10 you can accomplish the same thing a melee toon can, but at range and with more damage, if you're on a ranged attack toon. So you wouldn't need a bubbler or shield bot and would be overall more effective.

"Too many believe that Phase/Hib are the only means of escape."
I agree with this whole heartedly. However, they ARE a perfectly viable means of escape when coupled with good evasion, smart inspiration usage, and/or a strong team makeup.

So and and so forth. There's a view for each side of every issue and who's to say which approach is wrong or inferior? I only have a problem with the people that maintain they are the ones with the answer. Not an answer. The answer. The Way. The Light. The Right. The Ones. Blah blah blah.

Been out of the game for a long while (basically, I was out since I13-I14) and the most important thing was because my SG decided to change game as the pvp wasn't fun anymore.
I agree with most of the OP opinions, but, nonetheless, I agree also that the devs HAD to do something because the pvp pre-I13 was not open to everyone and had some flaws that had to be addressed.

My 2 cents are below, maybe some of these are repetitions.

* Diminishing Returns: these were inevitable and (mind, as a pvper) welcome. The NUMBERS of the DR though are completely wrong. It simply was absurd and insane that a team with 3 thermal corruptor could give 60%/90% resistance to mostly all kind of damage (I remember when in RV we simply let a blaster go inferno among us hitting all of us for 55 damage). But how DR are implemented now, this is ridiculous. Having 40% base resistance to all from my epic armor and increasing it to 44% from a thermal shield is ridiculous. Makes buffing ATs useless (and that's exactly how I felt). Suggestion? Base resistance from armor at 20%, soft cap at 40%, hard cap at 60% (for a corruptor) so that two shields may be welcome but more are not.
* Travel Suppression: again, I appreciate the idea. Fly wasn't a PVP viable travel power. SS/SJ were the ONLY one used by most of all the PVPers (with teleport left to those that could hide). Solution: increase flight speed cap and change +fly enhancements to give more boost, like interrupt reduction or knockback distance, also, there is no power that protects against the -fly, some of the less diffused buffing lines should have been blessed with such a power. Second reason for travel suppression: (lol)melee. What mac pointed out as a viable solution could have been enough (2s suppressed after being hit by a melee meant that you were basically at his mercy because he would hit you again and again continually suppressing you).
* Control Powers: it seems you pointed out at me and said "lol, let's see how he's goint to eat all these changes". I had two buffers (and you killed them with the DR) and an ice/ice blaster, that got nerfed his three holds and even its slow component. Anyway, it was freaking absurd being held for 20s by a controller. But a 2s hold when you may have a 3s animation for a big hitter power (say, total focus?) is another bad history. Regarding mez protection/resistance, it was also absurd that a 3-stacked clear mind could never be passed by any kind of mez even by a dominator in domination. Mez resistance can be ok (but please address the mez from the maobs in the PVP zones...), with a DR on the maximum resistance, and a reduction of hold duration is ok: 3-4s for normal ATs, 5s for dominator (+60% duration, max 8s) and 6s for controller for domination. Otherwise, controller and dominator mez should have shorter suppression after they land (say, make the suppression counter start from when you're mezzed and not when the mez ends, so that a 3s stun and a 15s suppression result in 12s). And cap resistance so that mez last at least a decent amount of time (say 2-3s?). I think that also here is a question of fiddling with numbers so that you can leave controlling ATs with the feeling and playstyle that mezzing is their weapon.
* Heal Decay: again, the idea is good, 3 healers in a team could put out such a massive amount of healing that was really really hard to kill someone in such a team. But the DR that have been implemented seems a bit hard. Lower the duration of a decay (5s insted of 8s?) or lower the amount of decay that is applied (say 12,5%?). That reduces the effectiveness of healers without leaving them feel useless.
* Damage Rebalance. That was also ok, but hitting so hard the "heavy hitters" of the most abused lines (bitter ice blast, blaze), annoyed - inevitably - those that had these kind of toons. I would have preferred more buffing to those other lines that weren't used for pvp.

Give up?

I am not a huge PvP'r in any respects, but when I do pvp in zones such as RV it would be nice to have no travel suppression. Travel suppression seems pointless I dont see what it was suppose to solve or why it was ever added. Anyway I hope this thread gets to be read.

Travel suppression begone!!!

Great post OP, I am not a major PvPer, but pre-i13 I played regularly in sirens. Certain toons tended to fair better than others, (spines/regen for example) but all of them had a use, a trick, or a chance at winning now and then, and ALL of them performed how I would expect them to.

At this point there are no tricks, I usually can't compete well because I simply don't understand how it all works. None of my characters powers make any sense, the resistance/defense numbers are all different so I don't know how to defend myself and my attacks either miss more or less often then I expect and never do the damage I'd think they would. Heals go away? DR Seems to decrease each time I die?

Bottom Line
-------------
pre-i13: I played, it wasn't always even, but I knew what I brought to the table.
Post-i13: I only come to grab temp powers, I have no idea how my character will perform, this last to the point that even a character that might be good will be played badly enough to lose.

Great post macskull! I agree with just about everything in your post.

That being said I never logged on just to pvp, but I did enjoy the speed of the game. You always knew it was going to be fun when you seen the multitude of SS trails behind super jump painting the distant landscape. TribHavok's suggestion for suppression sounded excellent.

The change from status protection to status resistance was a terrible idea imo. This may be one of those "the power effects still are the same at the core" things but I see no reason a power should "effect" different than it does in pve.

Balance is a tricky word but the bottom line is a support AT should have a difficult time vs offensive AT's, a melee AT should have a difficult time with ranged AT's. They just needed a chance or opportunity. Reeling in ranged AT's with a taunt is a good opportunity, chasing them firing off taunt so they must Target you is an oppertunity.

I really enjoyed other groups of players sending stalkers after my debuffer, sure I died ALOT, but I was support and the others wanting me spending most of the time at the hospital made me feel effective in a round about way.

The other problem with adjusting everything but a powers "core" is it alters everything. No longer can I move into a group of npc's and rely on damage from auras or debuffs to protect my toon because they detoggle all the time.

I could at times get crushed by some super purple pvp IOed toon but that's ok too, if I could I would spend the inf on my toon as well.

To the developers, please listen to the spirit of the OP.

I like the fact that posts like this one are still in the surface

<3

i just realize yesterday... that my pb has more versatility and survivability than all my scraps.. i hate post i13 pvp.. eventhough im happy about my pb.. i would like to chop some one in the head with a sword outside of pve...

Time to make a dominator

The thing is: nothing good happens when u listen to the carebears (PvEers) ofc those changes give a lot more chances to the non PvP guys, to farm turrets in RV or get their badges in PvP zones with high chances of survival, or why not? kill that lil stalker whos chassing them since even the bloody placate is bugged since i10 i logged in RV for the very 1st time with my claws/regen. Thank u Devs for listening to the carebears and not the ones who actually care about the PvP, making zone a hell for melee ATs since everything now is ranged and full with super jump+super speed!

O M G. After a two year break from the game so much has changed I consider myself a nooob all over again. Its like a reintroduction of sorts but, um errr why do i feel like i need to know advanced physics in order to pvp. I play in PVE and everything seems so familiar so cozy. I play chars that i have had since forever and they just feel natural. THEN, I step into a pvp zone and it feeels like i just walked into the TWILIGHT ZONE. Everything is so alien. My powers dont perform like advertised in pve. I keeep running around RV thinking Ashton Kutcher is gonna jump out at any moment and scream yo, you been punked. Biggest practical joke the Devs ever conceived since ED. Even then i could forge through ed and the Controller "rebalancing" of issue 6. But this this is just wrong on so many levels.

They finally did what we joked about since arena first came. Made everyone Generic Heroes #1-X. For what we have in pvp now why not just Strip the auras, costumes, and capes; take away every power but brawl and let us brawl each other to death. Well basically thats what it is now anyway just a brawl fest with some pretty sparks and now you can color your brawl power a pretty lil pink color. With what we have now rename this to City of Vanilla Flavored manikins. Or better yet City of Vanilla Flavored Manikins vs. KM/scrappers and Psi/EM Blasters. Seriously wtf. O and btw LOve the letter OP/em off to wait for GW2