A final, maybe stickieable, word on farming?
By
300_below,
Posted on: 2009-04-27 06:21 in Mission Architect
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So if you want to be very technical, the rule is farming is allowed if it's undetected and unreported.
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That's No Rule. That is a complete and total disregard for any existing standard of ethics or values. Under that, any crime, sin, or violation is justified as being "OK", no matter how ugly, abhorrent, disrespectful, or cruel, as long as no one of any consequence finds out about it.
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Actually, that's pretty much how the laws in the United States work.
Dec out.
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The problem is there is no set rule about farming. There is a rule against exploits, and we all agree they should be removed once identified and verified. No matter where you set the bar, people like me will ride that line as hard and as fast as humanly possible.
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Technically, there is one actual rule about farming: customer support (GMs) are allowed to remove missions believed to be farming missions from the architect system. So if you want to be very technical, the rule is farming is allowed if it's undetected and unreported.
One other point about rules. Our office's internet feed currently operates under a soft-cap. We pay for a specific level of bandwidth, but the circuit isn't capped to that level: we can use more temporarily. There is no specific set rule on how much we can exceed that level by, or for how long. And we burst over it all the time. But so long as our bursts aren't "excessive" we aren't required to purchase higher levels of bandwidth.
If I were to tell our provider "look, you tell me what my limit is, and I will ride that level right up to the limit: don't give me any of this 'reasonable' crap" they'd be happy to oblige by setting a hard cap for me and me alone.
I sometimes feel the same should be done in this case: everyone that explicitly asks for a hard cap defined by the devs should get one applied to them and them alone. Everyone else that can deal with reasonable judgement-defined limits should operate under those instead. It would seem to me this explicitly falls under the general principle of givng players what they want, within the limits of the game design. The people that want hard limits get them. The people that are ok with soft limits gets those instead.
That certainly satisfies every game-balance design rule I can think of.
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Actually, the first two report pulls are a function of reports vs positive rankings and are automatically done by computerized system, not actual customer service. If you want customer service you have to wait for further offences after republishing the mission or petition them.
This is why people who write stories about some pumpkinhead revolt on a farm map name Carnage on the Farm or something have their mission pulled. Why? Not because someone actually checked and pulled it, but because an idiot searched the word farm and blindly reported everything that came up. Both sides have extremists and I hope they both get banned.
But If i have a mission I am comfortable with running, run it repeatedly for my tickets, and enjoy doing it, so be it. I could give 2 shakes for it's artistic merit. I had fun playing it. My favorite mision on the AE at the moment is nothing but hordes and hordes of lvl 50 zombie bosses coming at me like something from night of the living dead. I run it atleast 2x a day. Like I have said many times. Until there is a rule, guideline, or mission statement somewhere, I'll keep my play like i have it. Posi himself says the Dev's are in mixed sentiments about farming and limits and the system in place is the solution. Wallah, I am within my limits to use said system to meet my gaming desires.
Bottom line, if no exploits are being used, it isn't illegal. Just like it isn't wrong to use the ITF over and over to level, it isn't wrong to speed run TF for maximised merits, and it isn't wrong to circle certain areas of certain maps hunting mobs for badges.
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Bottom line, if no exploits are being used, it isn't illegal. Just like it isn't wrong to use the ITF over and over to level, it isn't wrong to speed run TF for maximised merits, and it isn't wrong to circle certain areas of certain maps hunting mobs for badges.
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Quite right.
For Great Justice!
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Like seriously....there are OTHER Lieutenants out there that can be used with ease, to gain XP and what not.
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To the best of my knowledge, those other things have lieutenant-level HP and do lieutenant-level damage. That's the difference.
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Not much of a difference. Farmers will still blaze through them. Not that big of a deal.
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Farmers would not blaze through them if Comm Officers were spawning within a REAL Rikti group composed of Headmen, Mesmerists and Chief Soldiers.
I do not think Comm Officers are the real issue here. The ability for MA creator to make spawn only one single type of minions ( or lieuts or bosses ) and fill a whole map of them is THE problem which open door to imbalances imho.
I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
Voltaire
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The problem is there is no set rule about farming. There is a rule against exploits, and we all agree they should be removed once identified and verified. No matter where you set the bar, people like me will ride that line as hard and as fast as humanly possible.
[/ QUOTE ]
Technically, there is one actual rule about farming: customer support (GMs) are allowed to remove missions believed to be farming missions from the architect system. So if you want to be very technical, the rule is farming is allowed if it's undetected and unreported.
One other point about rules. Our office's internet feed currently operates under a soft-cap. We pay for a specific level of bandwidth, but the circuit isn't capped to that level: we can use more temporarily. There is no specific set rule on how much we can exceed that level by, or for how long. And we burst over it all the time. But so long as our bursts aren't "excessive" we aren't required to purchase higher levels of bandwidth.
If I were to tell our provider "look, you tell me what my limit is, and I will ride that level right up to the limit: don't give me any of this 'reasonable' crap" they'd be happy to oblige by setting a hard cap for me and me alone.
I sometimes feel the same should be done in this case: everyone that explicitly asks for a hard cap defined by the devs should get one applied to them and them alone. Everyone else that can deal with reasonable judgement-defined limits should operate under those instead. It would seem to me this explicitly falls under the general principle of givng players what they want, within the limits of the game design. The people that want hard limits get them. The people that are ok with soft limits gets those instead.
That certainly satisfies every game-balance design rule I can think of.
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Actually, the first two report pulls are a function of reports vs positive rankings and are automatically done by computerized system, not actual customer service. If you want customer service you have to wait for further offences after republishing the mission or petition them.
This is why people who write stories about some pumpkinhead revolt on a farm map name Carnage on the Farm or something have their mission pulled. Why? Not because someone actually checked and pulled it, but because an idiot searched the word farm and blindly reported everything that came up. Both sides have extremists and I hope they both get banned.
But If i have a mission I am comfortable with running, run it repeatedly for my tickets, and enjoy doing it, so be it. I could give 2 shakes for it's artistic merit. I had fun playing it. My favorite mision on the AE at the moment is nothing but hordes and hordes of lvl 50 zombie bosses coming at me like something from night of the living dead. I run it atleast 2x a day. Like I have said many times. Until there is a rule, guideline, or mission statement somewhere, I'll keep my play like i have it. Posi himself says the Dev's are in mixed sentiments about farming and limits and the system in place is the solution. Wallah, I am within my limits to use said system to meet my gaming desires.
Bottom line, if no exploits are being used, it isn't illegal. Just like it isn't wrong to use the ITF over and over to level, it isn't wrong to speed run TF for maximised merits, and it isn't wrong to circle certain areas of certain maps hunting mobs for badges.
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I can understand all the fun you have being swarmed by zombie bosses and getting alot of tickets for them. That however does not mean that what you are doing is "acceptable" from the game/dev point of view. How much reward are you gathering over time by doing such a mission? And what threat/challenge are you facing to gather such rewards? It is all about balance.
Even if it is not a pure code exploit that does not mean it is normal or acceptable that a player in MA can easily have access to several pool C ( Golden Rolls ) for minimal risk/effort while players doing other content in game that is harder or more time-consuming ( TFs ) get less reward. I call that broken.
I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
Voltaire
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Even if it is not a pure code exploit that does not mean it is normal or acceptable that a player in MA can easily have access to several pool C ( Golden Rolls ) for minimal risk/effort while players doing other content in game that is harder or more time-consuming ( TFs ) get less reward. I call that broken.
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I call that life. Seeing as the this is a game and what parts of it you play are entirely up to you its not a problem. People are playing for what they think is fun. Should base editing grant xp and merits ? Its time consuming and difficult to do well ?
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Even if it is not a pure code exploit that does not mean it is normal or acceptable that a player in MA can easily have access to several pool C ( Golden Rolls ) for minimal risk/effort while players doing other content in game that is harder or more time-consuming ( TFs ) get less reward. I call that broken.
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I call that life. Seeing as the this is a game and what parts of it you play are entirely up to you its not a problem. People are playing for what they think is fun. Should base editing grant xp and merits ? Its time consuming and difficult to do well ?
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The problem being, those of us who *don't* like AE farming are paying our $15 a month and are having our fun impacted by you having yours. Tell me, chumley... what makes your fun more important than mine? If what you do frustrates me and causes me to want to pull my hair out, why should I just sit and blindly let you continue to do it?
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The problem being, those of us who *don't* like AE farming are paying our $15 a month and are having our fun impacted by you having yours. Tell me, chumley... what makes your fun more important than mine? If what you do frustrates me and causes me to want to pull my hair out, why should I just sit and blindly let you continue to do it?
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Pardon me ?
Well first of all there seem to one heck of a lot more people that do like AE farming than don't.
But putting aside the tyranny of the mob
Just how are the AE farmers impacting your fun ?
So far I have seen people raise the complaints
1. That people won't play their missions
2. That there is broadcast spam
3. They can't get a regular team
To these I say too bad. Just what made you think you have the right to force people not to speak or play your crap ?
P.S. If you are letting other people "Make you want to pull your hair out" you need to do something about letting others have that much control over your mental state.
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Tell me, chumley... what makes your fun more important than mine? If what you do frustrates me and causes me to want to pull my hair out, why should I just sit and blindly let you continue to do it?
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This distills the essence of the farm whinefest magnificently. "I don't like it, so why should you be able to do it?"
Because it's a MMO. You have to allow for others playing the game, sometimes in ways that are not your first choice. How do people not see this?
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The problem being, those of us who *don't* like AE farming are paying our $15 a month and are having our fun impacted by you having yours. Tell me, chumley... what makes your fun more important than mine? If what you do frustrates me and causes me to want to pull my hair out, why should I just sit and blindly let you continue to do it?
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Thank you for illustrating my example of extremists. Until you pay my subscription or become one of the developers, you have no say in how I play my game. Just like I have no say over yours.
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The problem being, those of us who *don't* like AE farming are paying our $15 a month and are having our fun impacted by you having yours.
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Myself, I'm no farmer. I find it boring. But I don't see farmers impacting your game, at least not any more than a million other things are, which goes along with playing a game with thousands of other people. I see you LETTING farmers impact your game. Farmer spam in broadcast is annoying, but only if you pay attention to it. Many and varied ways to form teams other than just yelling in broadcast (actually, the LEAST efficient way of forming teams). Exploits are being taken out, then fixed and put back. Lag? That's not just farmers. That's everyone in the MA, farmers or story runners.
What are farmers doing to you again?
Dec out.
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Like seriously....there are OTHER Lieutenants out there that can be used with ease, to gain XP and what not.
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To the best of my knowledge, those other things have lieutenant-level HP and do lieutenant-level damage. That's the difference.
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Not much of a difference. Farmers will still blaze through them. Not that big of a deal.
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Farmers would not blaze through them if Comm Officers were spawning within a REAL Rikti group composed of Headmen, Mesmerists and Chief Soldiers.
I do not think Comm Officers are the real issue here. The ability for MA creator to make spawn only one single type of minions ( or lieuts or bosses ) and fill a whole map of them is THE problem which open door to imbalances imho.
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The solution for this is for the devs to actually make content that meets their "standards" and not shove it off on us.
Lots of 50's yada yada. still finding fun things to do.
Cthulhu loves you, better start running
I�! I�! Gg�gorsch�a�bha egurtsa�ar�ug d� Dalhor! Cthluhu fthagn! Cthluhu fthagn!
You are in a maze of twisty little passages
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The problem is there is no set rule about farming. There is a rule against exploits, and we all agree they should be removed once identified and verified. No matter where you set the bar, people like me will ride that line as hard and as fast as humanly possible.
[/ QUOTE ]
Technically, there is one actual rule about farming: customer support (GMs) are allowed to remove missions believed to be farming missions from the architect system. So if you want to be very technical, the rule is farming is allowed if it's undetected and unreported.
One other point about rules. Our office's internet feed currently operates under a soft-cap. We pay for a specific level of bandwidth, but the circuit isn't capped to that level: we can use more temporarily. There is no specific set rule on how much we can exceed that level by, or for how long. And we burst over it all the time. But so long as our bursts aren't "excessive" we aren't required to purchase higher levels of bandwidth.
If I were to tell our provider "look, you tell me what my limit is, and I will ride that level right up to the limit: don't give me any of this 'reasonable' crap" they'd be happy to oblige by setting a hard cap for me and me alone.
I sometimes feel the same should be done in this case: everyone that explicitly asks for a hard cap defined by the devs should get one applied to them and them alone. Everyone else that can deal with reasonable judgement-defined limits should operate under those instead. It would seem to me this explicitly falls under the general principle of givng players what they want, within the limits of the game design. The people that want hard limits get them. The people that are ok with soft limits gets those instead.
That certainly satisfies every game-balance design rule I can think of.
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Actually, the first two report pulls are a function of reports vs positive rankings and are automatically done by computerized system, not actual customer service. If you want customer service you have to wait for further offences after republishing the mission or petition them.
This is why people who write stories about some pumpkinhead revolt on a farm map name Carnage on the Farm or something have their mission pulled. Why? Not because someone actually checked and pulled it, but because an idiot searched the word farm and blindly reported everything that came up. Both sides have extremists and I hope they both get banned.
But If i have a mission I am comfortable with running, run it repeatedly for my tickets, and enjoy doing it, so be it. I could give 2 shakes for it's artistic merit. I had fun playing it. My favorite mision on the AE at the moment is nothing but hordes and hordes of lvl 50 zombie bosses coming at me like something from night of the living dead. I run it atleast 2x a day. Like I have said many times. Until there is a rule, guideline, or mission statement somewhere, I'll keep my play like i have it. Posi himself says the Dev's are in mixed sentiments about farming and limits and the system in place is the solution. Wallah, I am within my limits to use said system to meet my gaming desires.
Bottom line, if no exploits are being used, it isn't illegal. Just like it isn't wrong to use the ITF over and over to level, it isn't wrong to speed run TF for maximised merits, and it isn't wrong to circle certain areas of certain maps hunting mobs for badges.
[/ QUOTE ]
I can understand all the fun you have being swarmed by zombie bosses and getting alot of tickets for them. That however does not mean that what you are doing is "acceptable" from the game/dev point of view. How much reward are you gathering over time by doing such a mission? And what threat/challenge are you facing to gather such rewards? It is all about balance.
Even if it is not a pure code exploit that does not mean it is normal or acceptable that a player in MA can easily have access to several pool C ( Golden Rolls ) for minimal risk/effort while players doing other content in game that is harder or more time-consuming ( TFs ) get less reward. I call that broken.
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You are right. Everyone should be restricted down to the rewards that I can earn on my emp defender solo. That would be fair.
Lots of 50's yada yada. still finding fun things to do.
Cthulhu loves you, better start running
I�! I�! Gg�gorsch�a�bha egurtsa�ar�ug d� Dalhor! Cthluhu fthagn! Cthluhu fthagn!
You are in a maze of twisty little passages
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The solution for this is for the devs to actually make content that meets their "standards" and not shove it off on us.
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Oh god no. You know how long it took for me to find a way to make Positron Fun ?. It wasn't till the whole merits debacle and turning it into a solo race that I got any joy out of the thing.
I don't even want to begin to think about the giant clock fest that is synapse, or citadel "The council couldnt get a new base so just reused the same spot" or those endless tours of the shadow shard.
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The problem being, those of us who *don't* like AE farming are paying our $15 a month and are having our fun impacted by you having yours. Tell me, chumley... what makes your fun more important than mine? If what you do frustrates me and causes me to want to pull my hair out, why should I just sit and blindly let you continue to do it?
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Thank you for illustrating my example of extremists. Until you pay my subscription or become one of the developers, you have no say in how I play my game. Just like I have no say over yours.
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We don't get to decide what other players are allowed to do in this game, that's for the developers to do. However, we can still have *opinions* on what *should* be allowed to do.
If I'm doing something that you believe is detrimental to the game, you can (and in at least some cases should) voice your opinion that the action in question should not be allowed.
Of course, as is often the case, not all opinions are equally well-informed and rational, and unfortunately people often fail to make a distinction between what they like (not all aspects of the game have to be liked by everyone) and what is "good for the game". However, people can have good reasons for believing that something should not be allowed, and as long as they express these opinions in an allowed fashion, they can (and often should) do so.
If they pay your subscription or not is irrelevant.
waaaahhhhhh famrs do something and im hurt by it, even thogh i no not wat it is!!!!!111!!!11!
My wife likes to fight freaks. So I'll make her a freak mission or 3, But crybaby "I hat frmas Devs pls do somthin" will likely report it.
Anti Farmers impact my fun. Please devs, kick Anti farmers from the game.
That wasn't constructive either....
Here is an extremist from the other side of the arguement. Niether is better than the other.
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I can understand all the fun you have being swarmed by zombie bosses and getting alot of tickets for them. That however does not mean that what you are doing is "acceptable" from the game/dev point of view. How much reward are you gathering over time by doing such a mission? And what threat/challenge are you facing to gather such rewards? It is all about balance.
Even if it is not a pure code exploit that does not mean it is normal or acceptable that a player in MA can easily have access to several pool C ( Golden Rolls ) for minimal risk/effort while players doing other content in game that is harder or more time-consuming ( TFs ) get less reward. I call that broken.
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Here's an idea of a FIX to that "borkedness" that you say. Are you ready?
1. Take away the SK/LK system
2. Slash the XP in half all across the board so farming does not occur in AE, but also in TFs, and "actual content."
3. Do away with "PERMA 46s" ZOMG!
4. Take away IOs. Period. Make everyone play with SOs and Hami's as the creme de la creme!
5. Take away BADGES! People farming badges make me angry! You don't want to see me angry!!!
Note: This is a sarcastic way for me to say, if you honestly think they'll fix it to where there will be a "harmonius" balance between the 2 sides, you are delusional. If you honestly think they can fix this to where EVERYONE is playing EQUAL, think again.
Only way they can do that is to break the game itself and start from scratch.
Again, people seem to mix "Exploitative Farming" and "Farming" in general. Yet, the only ones that get mashed on are "XP/Merit/Tickets/Inf Farmers" instead of wait...zomg..."Badge Farmers." Because badges are different and offer no rewards. Please, it's the same concept. I'd like to have 700 badges, but you don't see me farming the friggin heal badge day in night out. It's no fun for me. But who am I to tell the people that do like being badge whores they can't do so?
This is redundant. Everyone has their opinions, and this debate is going in circles. Express how much you think "farming" is broken, and I'll just go keep farming, getting my rewards at a higher rate than most. 
Until they make it an ACTUAL LAW/RULE that Farming (NOT EXPLOITATIVE FARMING) is a no go, I'll keep doing what I'm doing and people can whine about it some more.
The problem is not farming. The problem is not anti-farming. The problem is not Mission Architect.
Here's the deal. People have vastly different opinions about enjoyable game play, but you can't make changes to a game based solely on opinion...
So, let's wait for the hype to die off, let them check the numbers, and then we can all start suggesting stuff. Until then it's just people talking junk. No one is listening. Not the other poster, not the development team, not the government.
There were far more complaints about PvP 2.0 and not much was altered by them.
Relax. Play the game. Stay out of Atlas. Buy and sell common salvage. Get on a global chat and join a taskforce or (gasp) start one of your own....
Play the game, you know? Outside of the forum mini-game?
I've said it before, fix what is truly broken. I've joined some farms and seen what is going on.
1. Using comm officers in custom groups is a problem, the comm officers themselves aren't the problem, remove the ability to use them as was done with Cimeroran Surgeons.
2. Fix the one glaring exploit that I know is there and being massively used by farmers. (Positron knows what it is and what makes it an exploited bug, a friend and I noticed and my friend reported it for Bughunter. I am stunned it has not been yanked yet.)
Doing those two things alone would be a huge one-two punch that would set AE farming on it's backside. By comparison maps that don't use both of those get "slow xp" (as complained, which stunned me because even so the xp was faster than a steamrollered 8-man ITF on invincible). And I haven't seen any real farm that didn't use at least one.
The change in the upcoming patch to prevent kiting of melee custom mobs will help with farming of those. There will always be farming of custom mobs as farmers seek to build the most advantageous. And farmers will always seek out the next most useful canon mob to use.
Hopefully Farming Disneyland will come to an end soon. It wouldn't be that hard. It wouldn't take that much to put MA farming on equitable ground with regular game farming, radical steps like gutting the best features of the MA system aren't needed.
Edit: Oh, and get the MA out of the starter zones and give new players a chance to experience the game before being sucker punched by the farmers. It would also be nice to have events like the 5th Anniversary with simple event lag and not additional lag caused by MA farms, or spammed by MA farm broadcast.
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Governments have fallen to the power of social media. Gaming companies can too.
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There were far more complaints about PvP 2.0 and not much was altered by them
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PvP 2.0, what happens when bad ideas infect your thoughtscape. Oddly enough some are seeing the current crisis as an opportunity to push a new set of bad ideas and set up new scapegoats for the games problems. What comes of it I don't know. I do know I would like to avoid the equivalent of elusivity and diminishing returns in the mission architecht.
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people often fail to make a distinction between what they like (not all aspects of the game have to be liked by everyone) and what is "good for the game".
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I'm not taking sides in this thread. I just wanted to point out the remarkable correlation between how much people like something and whether they believe it is good for the game. Even people who think they are making a distinction between the two almost always believe that they things they like are good for the game, and that things they don't like are bad for the game.
Avatar: "Cheeky Jack O Lantern" by dimarie
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I've said it before, fix what is truly broken. I've joined some farms and seen what is going on.
1. Using comm officers in custom groups is a problem, the comm officers themselves aren't the problem, remove the ability to use them as was done with Cimeroran Surgeons.
2. Fix the one glaring exploit that I know is there and being massively used by farmers. (Positron knows what it is and what makes it an exploited bug, a friend and I noticed and my friend reported it for Bughunter. I am stunned it has not been yanked yet.)
Doing those two things alone would be a huge one-two punch that would set AE farming on it's backside. By comparison maps that don't use both of those get "slow xp" (as complained, which stunned me because even so the xp was faster than a steamrollered 8-man ITF on invincible). And I haven't seen any real farm that didn't use at least one.
The change in the upcoming patch to prevent kiting of melee custom mobs will help with farming of those. There will always be farming of custom mobs as farmers seek to build the most advantageous. And farmers will always seek out the next most useful canon mob to use.
Hopefully Farming Disneyland will come to an end soon. It wouldn't be that hard. It wouldn't take that much to put MA farming on equitable ground with regular game farming, radical steps like gutting the best features of the MA system aren't needed.
Edit: Oh, and get the MA out of the starter zones and give new players a chance to experience the game before being sucker punched by the farmers. It would also be nice to have events like the 5th Anniversary with simple event lag and not additional lag caused by MA farms, or spammed by MA farm broadcast.
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Perfectly said Steele...FINALLY!
I agree 100% with the adjustment to rikti comm officers xp/inf/ticket drop rate. I don't think the removal is needed, certainly a revamped version similar to Snake Eggs should return.
In terms of the little known exploit regarding spawn sizes. I think its probably a good idea to remove it. The idea of one person getting the amount of lewt they can from using this exploit is abusive and this is from a devout powergamer.
As you stated the amount of return after removing these things is still a good amount and something nobody should complain about principally because its what the devs decided.
I have to repeat what I said before about the ranged attack/kite issue because its mentioned. For a kite farmer one ranged attack cycling is hardly a real threat but I understand and support the devs reasoning for including this feature. 
Any problems with in-game broadcast lay with the individual, but thats a minor thing.
As with every issue the new will wear off and people will return to a normal routine with players doing a wide variety of the content offered just like every other issue I have seen since coming on board 2 1/2 years ago. There is zero difference with this issue concerning that point.
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radical steps like gutting the best features of the MA system aren't needed.
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Could not agree more. Cheers
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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Exploits and outliers getting removed is good and is far as things are going to go.
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Hear, hear.
For Great Justice!