A final, maybe stickieable, word on farming?
By
300_below,
Posted on: 2009-04-27 06:21 in Mission Architect
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04-28-2009 17:38:37 [Local] Positron: We'll be dealing with the farmers, harshly.
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Source.
Not saying 'yay' or 'boo', just making people aware.
Those badge farmers with their 600 plus badges better run.... 
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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04-28-2009 17:38:37 [Local] Positron: We'll be dealing with the farmers, harshly.
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Source.
Not saying 'yay' or 'boo', just making people aware.
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LIES! I have no problem switching to Stargate MMO if it's true, and they do something completly off the wall ... been meaning to try that anyways.
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04-28-2009 17:38:37 [Local] Positron: We'll be dealing with the farmers, harshly.
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Source.
Not saying 'yay' or 'boo', just making people aware.
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I think we can easily say that one of the following things is true:
1) Posi may have been using the word "farmers" to refer to people using exploits or breaking rules, not the way I and others use that word (someone who has a playstyle of seeking better reward rates, usually without exploits or breaking rules.)
2) Posi may have been speaking from his own dislike (similar to others on these boards) of people who's playstyle seeks out better reward rates, not just those using exploits or breaking the rules. As such, he may not have been speaking for the devs as a group at all, but about his own personal pet peeve.
3) Posi may have been speaking for the devs as a whole, and they may be intending to "go after" people who care how fast they level, and choose more effective options.
4) Posi may have been misquoted, impersonated, or Posi himself may have mispoken.
I would say that #2 and #3 should for now be ruled out, since I have a policy of trying to give folks the benefit of the doubt, I cannot based on that one thing alone assume that either the devs or Posi would be either so irrational or so short sighted.
#4 is always possible, but I think it's probably fairly obvious that what was meant is #1.
Which I don't think any of us - even though many of us "farm" according to the definition *I* use - have a problem with Posi eliminating exploits and enforcing the rules. And I imagine Posi has no problem with us. 
For Great Justice!
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1) Posi may have been using the word "farmers" to refer to people using exploits or breaking rules, not the way I and others use that word (someone who has a playstyle of seeking better reward rates, usually without exploits or breaking rules.)
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More Posi:
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Players have undoubtedly noticed an increase in patches since Issue 14 launched, and a lot of these have been to address farming concerns.
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I think you're right, though.
I agree - this may be my naivete speaking, blinded by my love of CoX - what a game it is! - but I have to believe that the guys in charge know the difference between fine tuning their game and condemning folks who just want to level fast *while* they fight crime. 
I think (and hope) that all of us will be pleased by both the effectiveness of the devs as they weed out the ways in which MA can be abused and by the wisdom of the devs as they stay completely hands-off of our playstyles.
Now let's go back to arguing about their nerfs. (kidding!)
For Great Justice!
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The ranged attack bit only stops the "flying blaster" farmer. Were that many people doing this particular technique?!?
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The flying blaster farmer was an actual exploit.
I don't agree with the OP in many points, I really hope his post does not become a sticky, but he is right in one thing: farming is not an issue.
Exploiting MA "features" for unfair advantage is. I consider being able to create missions that contain pure XP bonus foes such a situation. I am not sure if its possible off the bat, but no critter should give xp bonuses IF they are used in custom groups. Their XP bonuses should remain only within their original groups.
I am not sure if i consider missions that are pure bosses to be an issue as long as these bosses are not being farmed by some one within pure safety (like a flying blaster vs pure meleers, or purely passive allies with buffing toggles abuses)
Farming in and onto itself is ok as long as the system does not allows the farmer to do ridiculous things that end up messing up the market.
We need to get someone to have posi define what he views farming to be to understand what it is they are trying to prevent or punish.
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The ranged attack bit only stops the "flying blaster" farmer. Were that many people doing this particular technique?!?
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The flying blaster farmer was an actual exploit.
I don't agree with the OP in many points, I really hope his post does not become a sticky, but he is right in one thing: farming is not an issue.
Exploiting MA "features" for unfair advantage is. I consider being able to create missions that contain pure XP bonus foes such a situation. I am not sure if its possible off the bat, but no critter should give xp bonuses IF they are used in custom groups. Their XP bonuses should remain only within their original groups.
I am not sure if i consider missions that are pure bosses to be an issue as long as these bosses are not being farmed by some one within pure safety (like a flying blaster vs pure meleers, or purely passive allies with buffing toggles abuses)
Farming in and onto itself is ok as long as the system does not allows the farmer to do ridiculous things that end up messing up the market.
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This thread has been pretty good.
I also think these are some pretty good suggestions.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
I suspect the reason the devs haven't drawn a line yet is that they know the moment they do, every farmer will be right up against it, and some will be putting one foot over it but claiming their other foot wasn't so it should be okay. (And some will sneak across it in the dead of night, swearing each other to secrecy first, and complain when they get caught.)
My characters at Virtueverse
Faces of the City
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1) Posi may have been using the word "farmers" to refer to people using exploits or breaking rules, not the way I and others use that word (someone who has a playstyle of seeking better reward rates, usually without exploits or breaking rules.)
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Yep.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
I bought this game in beta, and have been gone for 3.5 years. So pardon me if I'm a bit rusty on the leveling techniques of late.
After a year of play I had a handful of level 30ish characters. I lost interest, and moved on to other games.
The best way to level that I was aware of back in the day was to use a SK and put them WAY out of XP range using a possible loophole/exploit what ever you want to call it. Anyway... The end result was the person getting leveled got normal XP, and the leveler was half way across the world and tada!!! Power levels!
It was pretty time consuming and tedious, and of course you needed a high level person to kill high level mobs, and a BIG zone to get the range thing to work right.
I reported it because I discovered it on accident, and I think the patched it. And in a nut shell, you could get 10 or 20 levels in a hurry. But because my highest guy was in his 30s, breaking 30 for me was nearly impossible using this method for days and days on end.
Anyway.
The com officer leveling is easily 4x faster, and ANYONE can do it. Starting at level 1 to 35 in a 4-5 hour session. From 35 to 50 in a second 4-5 hour session.
So you go from 1 to 50 in about 8-10 hours. (1 long day of weekend play.)
This current 'farm' method is WAY faster than any 'genuine' exploit I've ever seen in this or any other online game.
I remember being proud of AE farming in EQ, and getting 1 level in about 4 hours!!!
Com officers are pretty out of whack. I've been gone for a long time like I said, and I was astounded I could get 50 in just 2 days of play after work.
I was like OMGWTFBBQ!?!?!?!?!
I'm a farmer... I love to try and find good farm missions and reset them over and over. Grind up the XP and feel like I'm 'winning' but the com officer thing is well beyond 'farming'.
When people are getting 10k a pull and say... "Man this is slow, I'm only getting 1600 a kill." You know the bar has been raised pretty high.
If they just handed EVERY ACCOUNT a level 50 EVERY WEEK for free, no effort. It would actually be SIGNIFICANTLY slower than the current AE methods.
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Now, there is a group of people, which I personally believe to be a vocal minority, that does wants to forbid people who play this game from playing the "wrong" way. These people think we "should" all be focused on the story and RP elements, and not on gaining rewards effectively.
There is no defense of such a position. One cannnot support a position of discrimination against players of CoX based on what they enjoy when they play the game or on what they pursue.
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Of course, every position is defensible.
Why wouldn't it be?
Is it because you disagree with their position on how they want to play the game? Aren't you discriminating against them for disagreeing with you? Sure sounds like it in the first paragraph in the quote.
Go farm if you want, but don't harass me by sending me a tell to join you or to ask me to fill.
As far as I'm concerned, tells from farmers asking me to fill are SPAM. And they will be reported as such from now on.
Just keep that in mind when you are sending around your random tells to get more inf and loot for yourself and your fellow farmers. Some of us don't want to be harassed by your random tells.\
It's probably time for everyone that doesn't like getting these [u]SPAM farming tells[u] to do the same thing.
As far as I'm concerned, farming is boring and so is power-leveling. I really like to hear that ding when it means something. Dinging without a feeling of accomplishment is empty to me.
On the other hand, I don't have to have the most uber-est stuff to enjoy playing the game.
I blame this need for instant gratification on Pokemon.
I do think that some people are done playing once they have what they want. For some that is a 50. Those players that play only to get to 50 and don't want to be exposed to the depths of the game will burn-out and quit like a moth racing into a flame.
The content is what makes the game enjoyable.
Take a moment to smell the flowers before you out level them.
There is no reason to reply to me directly. I'm not going to come back to make any counter posts.
This is my stance.
It is just as defensible as anyone else's opinion.
We all have the right to our own opinion.
We have our own opinions for our own reasons.
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We need to get someone to have posi define what he views farming to be to understand what it is they are trying to prevent or punish.
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That would be ideal, but does not appear to be happening.
For Great Justice!
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I suspect the reason the devs haven't drawn a line yet is that they know the moment they do, every farmer will be right up against it, and some will be putting one foot over it but claiming their other foot wasn't so it should be okay. (And some will sneak across it in the dead of night, swearing each other to secrecy first, and complain when they get caught.)
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I hope that's not the reason - as I have said before, keeping secret rules is like keeping the speed limit on a highway secret, but arresting everyone who break it.
Not a good idea, and ultimately, not fair.
For Great Justice!
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Of course, every position is defensible.
Why wouldn't it be?
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Slavery is defensible, but it doesn't mean it's right. How is slavery related? Your telling someone what you want them to do.
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Go farm if you want, but don't harass me by sending me a tell to join you or to ask me to fill.
As far as I'm concerned, tells from farmers asking me to fill are SPAM. And they will be reported as such from now on.
Just keep that in mind when you are sending around your random tells to get more inf and loot for yourself and your fellow farmers
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Why? You think people are going to be banned for asking someone one time to fill/pad? Your delusional if you think that. I've been doing it for well over 2 years, and guess what ..... I'm still here. You may want to get off your high horse and come back to reality.
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As far as I'm concerned, farming is boring and so is power-leveling
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And why would I care about what you are concerned about? Do you think you are going to get someone banned because they farm? Again, you need to come back to reality. It won't happen.
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On the other hand, I don't have to have the most uber-est stuff to enjoy playing the game.
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and I do. If something is added into a game, why not get it? It makes no sense to not and try to achieve the level at which the bar has been rasied to. Eventually, the bar will be raised again, and again, and again. And where will you be? What will you do when the game level has to be readjusted because it's to easy? It's getting pretty close to that point now.
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I do think that some people are done playing once they have what they want. For some that is a 50.
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For very very very few it's 50. Do a search and see how many 50's are on. Those are the people who find enjoyment post 50, and that is how this game should work.
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Those players that play only to get to 50 and don't want to be exposed to the depths of the game will burn-out and quit like a moth racing into a flame
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This we agree on. There is alot of things to do post 50. I've hit 50 on my Archer/MM blaster about a month ago, and I'm still playing him almost ritually every night, farming for tickets to get drops that he needs, or gain influence to buy what I need. It's how I play, and I have no intention on changing that ...
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It is just as defensible as anyone else's opinion.
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and I'm sure slavery is a defensible position as well ...
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Not a good idea, and ultimately, not fair.
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Perhaps. But do you deny that everything I said there would happen?
Draw a hard line, and rules lawyers immediately start trying to blur it again, in their favor. And the ones who aren't trying to weasel around it are all going the speed limit plus their best guess of the error margin of the cop's radar gun - faster, if they think there's no cops around. (How close can we get to violating the spirit of the rules without actually breaking their letter?)
I've seen it before in other games and outside games too. It's a certain kind of player, a certain kind of thinking, and it's everywhere. Which means, I suppose, that it's stupid to try to fight it, but I'm strange and idealistic that way. That just because you can do a thing doesn't mean you should.
My characters at Virtueverse
Faces of the City
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...Just because you can do a thing doesn't mean you should.
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Exactly.
Also... when a level 50 Tanker asks where he can find City Hall... when he's standing under Atlas... and not 5 minutes later another 50 asks if he's supposed to buy his cape at Wentworths... you realize it's gone beyond absurd. These people haven't PLAYED. Instead they stood around while someone else played.
This isn't Guild Wars. The level-cap PvP is limited to two places: RV, and the Arena. Everything else you can get to WHILE you're leveling up.
Now, granted, a lot of folks do want to skip to the end, especially those that have already leveled a 50 or two, or more, 'the hard way'... but even that doesn't take all that long, really. Get on a good superteam and do TF's every weekend, get to 50 in a couple of months. Get with a good SG and team ANY character to 50 in about that time. Plus you'll meet fun people and actually learn how to play your characters.
That's what bugs me about the uberfarming. It's turning out characters at the level cap, with players who are still stuck in Outbreak trying to figure out how to find a waypoint.
But I don't care anymore how y'all play. Just stop spamming, please. It's totally immersion-breaking. Thank you.
"City of Heroes. April 27, 2004 - August 31, 2012. Obliterated not with a weapon of mass destruction, not by an all-powerful supervillain... but by a cold-hearted and cowardly corporate suck-up."
LOUD NOISES!
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I do think that some people are done playing once they have what they want. For some that is a 50.
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For very very very few it's 50. Do a search and see how many 50's are on. Those are the people who find enjoyment post 50, and that is how this game should work.
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For what it's worth, I *only* play up to 50, once I hit 50 I find further use of the character pointless. So, I level the character to 50, and then put him away. However, even tough I do not play past 50, getting a character to 50 is not the end for me - because theres SO MANY character to try.
For example, I like Blasters. Theres a LOT of different kinds of blasters - Electric is very different from Fire, is very different from Energy, is very different from Archery, is very different from Psionics.
And that's just blasters. I also enjoy stalkers, corruptors, controllers, defenders, masterminds, brutes, khelds, and to a lesser extent scrappers, tankers, and dominators. Each of which have many different ways to make them.
I play casually. I do not have a guild or anything behind me. And from time to time I might spend a week or even two not even playing CoX due to to much work (I am self-employed). I tend to take a character from 1 to 50 in about 2-4 months.
Still, when I *am* in the game and playing, I don't want to be stuck in reverse, getting a very crappy rate of XP - I want to be leveling at a decent clip.
Anyways, my point is that even for those of us who only play their characters from 1 to 50, not only is the game NOT over when we get him to 50 (because there are so MANY different characters to play after that one), but we still like to level at a faster clip.
For Great Justice!
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Not a good idea, and ultimately, not fair.
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Perhaps. But do you deny that everything I said there would happen?
Draw a hard line, and rules lawyers immediately start trying to blur it again, in their favor. And the ones who aren't trying to weasel around it are all going the speed limit plus their best guess of the error margin of the cop's radar gun - faster, if they think there's no cops around. (How close can we get to violating the spirit of the rules without actually breaking their letter?)
I've seen it before in other games and outside games too. It's a certain kind of player, a certain kind of thinking, and it's everywhere. Which means, I suppose, that it's stupid to try to fight it, but I'm strange and idealistic that way. That just because you can do a thing doesn't mean you should.
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The possibility that what you describe would happen may be seen as some as a negative outcome. In my opinion, having a secret strandard that you expect people to obey without letting them know *what* they should obey is tantamount to ebil - it is much much worse.
To continue to use my metaphor, sure, if you post a specific speed limit, you may get a lot of people driving exactly at that limit.
To my way of thinking, the fact that people drive the speed limit on the road instead of less than that is not in general much of a problem. Not compared to the unacceptable alternate choice of having blank speed limit signs, and having arrests of people for speeding when they weren't given the option to know beforehand what the limit really is.
For Great Justice!
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That's what bugs me about the uberfarming. It's turning out characters at the level cap, with players who are still stuck in Outbreak trying to figure out how to find a waypoint.
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Although it's possible that the somehow missed a feature of the game and are knowledgeable about 90% of it, I understand what you mean. However, I do not think the answer is punishing these people. I think the answer could be a kind of rating system, kind of llke how eBay let's you see a seller's rating and read the comments of other people who have used the seller.
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But I don't care anymore how y'all play. Just stop spamming, please. It's totally immersion-breaking. Thank you.
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The thing is, so many of us don't care about immersion. But I understand that you do. On the one hand, you should be permitted to pursue what you like in this game, on the other hand, your pursuit of that shouldn't control *my* pursuit of the same.
For example, I might be enjoy the game as a place to chat with other people who like supers. I might engage in a short conversation in broadcast about for example, this whole swine flu thing that is happening.
Now, your first option, to protect your immersion, is just to mute me, which you can do, but if quite a few people start chatting about it, you would have to mute a lot of people.
Perhaps what you could really use is an officially designated RP server, where folks are expected to not talk about current events, to name their characters non goofy names, and to generally stay in character. I would ne fine with you having and playing on such a character - but I am not OK with being forced to stay in RP mode myself throughout this game.
For Great Justice!
Actually, since this game takes place "in the present" and theoretically COULD crossover with a lot of modern life, you can be 'immersed' and still discuss out of game stuff.
So I'd not think current events discussions to be immersion-breaking - your character is paying attention to the news.
It's when the fourth wall is broken that immersion breaks, nay, shatters. Especially if it's repetitive.
Thus my request to stop SPAMMING.
Requesting a team once isn't spamming.
Macro'ing the request and hammering the key over and over and over is. I'm sure you've been irritated by someone's "RP" macros before... every attack had a corresponding "shout" or "emote" or whatnot. Probably told them to [censored] after the first couple of minutes (I would have!). The spam is the same thing for me and a lot of other people.
I can understand the drudgery of leveling up lots of different characters. Shoot, some of mine barely make it out of the teens, mainly because they were concept characters, level pacts, or other "spur of the moment" things that depended on other people. My Superteam Fire/Rad Troller is stuck just shy of 40 because the team itself went poof. Without it, she's wiiiiiimpy... and begs for an alternate build. Others I fully intent to take to 50 because I like to play them a lot, they're good endgame builds, they MIGHT make decent PvP builds if I'd ever learn about any of that... et cetera.
It still doesn't mean I want to coach noobs through a Ship Raid, or worry about pick-up mechanics during an ITF. These things can swing on a dime, and require smart players, not fancy builds.
"City of Heroes. April 27, 2004 - August 31, 2012. Obliterated not with a weapon of mass destruction, not by an all-powerful supervillain... but by a cold-hearted and cowardly corporate suck-up."
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Actually, since this game takes place "in the present" and theoretically COULD crossover with a lot of modern life, you can be 'immersed' and still discuss out of game stuff.
So I'd not think current events discussions to be immersion-breaking - your character is paying attention to the news.
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Okay, think instead of current events, discussion over chat about the merits of /kins and /rads and the varying numbers the set's powers have.
I guess that would be a better example of breaking the fourth wall. I am fine with a server where that isn't permitted (I just won't be on it), but not fine with having to act "in character" all the time on all servers.
For Great Justice!
The ranged attack bit only stops the "flying blaster" farmer. Were that many people doing this particular technique?!?
Infinity and Victory mostly
dUmb, etc.
lolz PvP anymore, Market PvP for fun and profit