A final, maybe stickieable, word on farming?
By
300_below,
Posted on: 2009-04-27 06:21 in Mission Architect
OK check it.
The devs have only culled the enemy mob lists TEMPORARILY. Posi stated that the missing mobs/objects would be back once the dev team had time to recode AE-only versions of them. In the meantime, they're stepping on exploits.
And I think we're all in agreement that getting rid of exploits is in everyone's best interest, nu?
As for the "I'm not messing with your game, don't mess with mine" and "I pay my $15 per month too, sometimes more." arguments... we ALL pay, some of us for multiple accounts (yes RP'ers dual-box too). We also have our pet peeves about what we're willing to put up with while we play. However, AE has jammed all of us into one or two zones, where we must interact whether we like to or not.
We're also seeing a lot of cross-server conflict, whereas before, that wasn't really a problem.
Just so no one gets the idea that they are NOT at fault here, everyone's contributed to all of this.
Farm arcs crowding story arcs in the ratings: Really, we don't NEED a hundred versions of the same map and the same mobs... but they're there. Everyone gets three arcs per account, so if that's what people want to write... oh well. It WOULD be nice to have better search tools, yes.
LFT spam scrolling the RP chat: Make new tab, put broadcast in that tab.
Market prices getting out of whack: run a few arcs, exchange for salvage, sell it.
... what, me? I'll be reporting the exploit farms I find. The others I'll leave alone. Even if I don't like them.
"City of Heroes. April 27, 2004 - August 31, 2012. Obliterated not with a weapon of mass destruction, not by an all-powerful supervillain... but by a cold-hearted and cowardly corporate suck-up."
I swear, three specific fixes would I think put *everyone* in a better mood:
1) Have a "farm" checkbox, if checked (or if the devs think an unchecked mission is really a farm), it gets listed on its OWN tab in AE (or equally workable, you could have a check box in the AE filter to filter out farms or to show ONLY farms.)
2) Make an official FARM broadcast channel. Make farming people use it.
3) Make AE/MA be it's own seprate zone, like the disco place, that you can access from each AE site - that way all broadcast stays within AE, and there's just one AE, not seven.
Edit: by request:
4) Add in an additional difficulty slider that lets you set the spawned for size, in both the regular and AE missions. Farmers don't like having to ask people to pad and people don't like being bothered
For Great Justice!
[ QUOTE ]
I swear, three specific fixes would I think put *everyone* in a better mood:
1) Have a "farm" checkbox, if checked (or if the devs think an unchecked mission is really a farm), it gets listed on its OWN tab in AE (or equally workable, you could have a check box in the AE filter to filter out farms or to show ONLY farms.)
2) Make an official FARM broadcast channel. Make farming people use it.
3) Make AE/MA be it's own seprate zone, like the disco place, that you can access from each AE site - that way all broadcast stays within AE, and there's just one AE, not seven.
[/ QUOTE ]
Add in an additional difficulty slider that lets you set the spawned for size, in both the regular and AE missions. Farmers don't like having to ask people to pad and people don't like being bothered
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We are playing how we want for our 15 $ we are not breaking any rules.
[/ QUOTE ]
And in doing so make the game frustraing for those of us who like to play in a reasonable, intelligent fashion not governed by go-fever and treasure-lust.
I'm glad you're having fun, but what you do for fun makes what I do for fun less fun. Why do you, by your own argument, have the right to have whatever fun you want at the expense of my having fun? You keep bringing up the fact that you are paying your $15 a month and thus get to play like you like, but what about my $15 a month? Doesn't that mean I get to play like I like, too?
The problem being, of course, that I can't play like I like, because you and your cohorts are ruining the atmosphere for me.
I'm still waiting for someone to justify that. How is your having fun more important, objectively, than my having fun? Because in the end, that's what you are saying. That you have the right, by way of your $15 a month, to make things less fun for me, while I, despite my own $15 a month, DO NOT have the right to tread on your fun as you are treading on mine.
Please. Enlighten me. How do you justify that?
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[And in doing so make the game frustraing for those of us who like to play in a reasonable, intelligent fashion not governed by go-fever and treasure-lust.
[/ QUOTE ]
Must be nice to have the right to force others to do things your way to satisfy your whims
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The sole and complete issue I have with farmers and those who make farm maps, is that they are the cause for having certain enemies, sometimes entire enemy groups, no longer being available in MA because of their abusing them for farming purposes. This directly impacts me as an MA author in that I can no longer use content because of those people.
They effectively have stolen part of the game from me that I used to have access to, but now do not. And yes, I DID have access to it. Since MA's launch, a large number of mobs have been removed from MA and I fear even more coming soon. The attitude of "farming doesn't hurt anyone else" is completely bogus when it comes to the MA. If you farm in this manner, such that it causes the devs to punish us all for your actions, then you ARE harming everyone else. Continuing to deny it will just prove that you don't care if you hurt others or not.
If your actions don't impact me, I don't care what you do, but as soon as I am losing access to parts of the game I once had because of you, well now we have an issue.
[/ QUOTE ]
If arcana had reported to the devs that certain enemies were giving 2x rewards but were not yet being farmed, would you be mad at her because the devs removed them till they were fixed? Farmers made the "exploit" apparent to the devs, they did not write it or create it. They made it apparent to the devs with exactly the same result as if they had filed a bug report. Do you get mad at holders of BUGHUNTER?
Lots of 50's yada yada. still finding fun things to do.
Cthulhu loves you, better start running
I�! I�! Gg�gorsch�a�bha egurtsa�ar�ug d� Dalhor! Cthluhu fthagn! Cthluhu fthagn!
You are in a maze of twisty little passages
[ QUOTE ]
They made it apparent to the devs with exactly the same result as if they had filed a bug report.
[/ QUOTE ]
Not if they proceeded to exploit that bug to their advantage, over and over. Most responsible bug reporters don't do that.
That's like, oh, saying the bank should thank you and give you money for proving they were insecure by robbing them.
Now, maybe if the Devs awarded Bug Hunter and deleted all the new 50s... that might be fair.
My characters at Virtueverse
Faces of the City
Beating this damn thing like a dead horse.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
We are playing how we want for our 15 $ we are not breaking any rules.
[/ QUOTE ]
And in doing so make the game frustraing for those of us who like to play in a reasonable, intelligent fashion not governed by go-fever and treasure-lust.
I'm glad you're having fun, but what you do for fun makes what I do for fun less fun. Why do you, by your own argument, have the right to have whatever fun you want at the expense of my having fun? You keep bringing up the fact that you are paying your $15 a month and thus get to play like you like, but what about my $15 a month? Doesn't that mean I get to play like I like, too?
The problem being, of course, that I can't play like I like, because you and your cohorts are ruining the atmosphere for me.
I'm still waiting for someone to justify that. How is your having fun more important, objectively, than my having fun? Because in the end, that's what you are saying. That you have the right, by way of your $15 a month, to make things less fun for me, while I, despite my own $15 a month, DO NOT have the right to tread on your fun as you are treading on mine.
Please. Enlighten me. How do you justify that?
[/ QUOTE ]
Please expand on how one group farming is intruding on how you play your game? Maybe if you provide examples, we can see what you mean. Because all you are saying to those of us on the other side is that "You guys should be made to play like I want you to" All we are saying is "We should be allowed to play like we want and you should be allowed to play like you want as long as noone is breaking any rules." Please respond here or in PM and i will debate this with you to keep the thread from degenerating further.
My offer is open to any of the antifarmer/powergamer community who wishes to do this. My mailbox is open. If you can/will participate in a reasonable debate, I am available to for your query.
I do this to minimize outside flaming from both sides of the arguement, because we both have our more vocal minority who do nothing but light matches. Be warned, I will report flaming, but if you really do want a serious debate, my mailbox is open.
casandra. please explain how My small group of friends who each have 2 accounts and pad our own missions, do not spam for farms, do not exploit enemies that are bugged and known exploits, We do not powerlevel lowbies for influence or real money inteferes in your playstyle whatsoever
The answer is you cannot. I am not in atlas spamming over and over and over 46 scrapper looking for farm! we gather on vent and never use in game chat for anything but dragging recipees and salvage into the window to show what drops we got for our ticket sales.
You however are here trying to directly intefere in our fun by calling for nerfs to our basic playstyle when you should just be using the tools available to you to not see the spam in question. you can ignore individuals globally and have all the peace and quiet you want.
The fact is you and others on your bandwagon are the ones who have the problem and you are the ones who insist others cater to your wants.
Since I am not directly intefereing with your playstyle. Yet you are intentionally trying to intefere with mine then
Yes I will say that my 15$ gives me the right to play how I like and your 15$ can go to burger king where you can have it YOUR WAY!
[ QUOTE ]
OK check it.
The devs have only culled the enemy mob lists TEMPORARILY. Posi stated that the missing mobs/objects would be back once the dev team had time to recode AE-only versions of them.
[/ QUOTE ]
I've not seen this. I hope it's true. Do you have a link to where this was said?
Quote:
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Originally Posted by eltonio
This is over the top mental slavery.
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[ QUOTE ]
OK check it.
The devs have only culled the enemy mob lists TEMPORARILY. Posi stated that the missing mobs/objects would be back once the dev team had time to recode AE-only versions of them.
[/ QUOTE ]
I've not seen this. I hope it's true. Do you have a link to where this was said?
[/ QUOTE ]
Test forums where they removed the things like Snake Eggs and Vamp generators. If you really want i can go try to dig up a link. Basically it said they were being removed because they are an exploit. The will eventually be cloned and recoded to give AE acceptable rewards then reinputed to the enemy list.
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They made it apparent to the devs with exactly the same result as if they had filed a bug report.
[/ QUOTE ]
Not if they proceeded to exploit that bug to their advantage, over and over. Most responsible bug reporters don't do that.
That's like, oh, saying the bank should thank you and give you money for proving they were insecure by robbing them.
Now, maybe if the Devs awarded Bug Hunter and deleted all the new 50s... that might be fair.
[/ QUOTE ]
you completely missed the point. When the devs find a mob that gives out of line rewards, wether through a bug report or data mining, they do the same thing. they remove it till they can fix the problem. Do you have a problem with bug reporters? because they are taking away mobs from you also.
Lots of 50's yada yada. still finding fun things to do.
Cthulhu loves you, better start running
I�! I�! Gg�gorsch�a�bha egurtsa�ar�ug d� Dalhor! Cthluhu fthagn! Cthluhu fthagn!
You are in a maze of twisty little passages
[ QUOTE ]
Now, maybe if the Devs awarded Bug Hunter and deleted all the new 50s... that might be fair.
[/ QUOTE ]
And there it is. Not fairness. No just a simple whiney desire to get even and take it out on people that are disliked.
It would almost be worth it to see you get your wish.
Indeed.
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I swear, three specific fixes would I think put *everyone* in a better mood:
1) Have a "farm" checkbox, if checked (or if the devs think an unchecked mission is really a farm), it gets listed on its OWN tab in AE (or equally workable, you could have a check box in the AE filter to filter out farms or to show ONLY farms.)
2) Make an official FARM broadcast channel. Make farming people use it.
3) Make AE/MA be it's own seprate zone, like the disco place, that you can access from each AE site - that way all broadcast stays within AE, and there's just one AE, not seven.
[/ QUOTE ]
Add in an additional difficulty slider that lets you set the spawned for size, in both the regular and AE missions. Farmers don't like having to ask people to pad and people don't like being bothered
[/ QUOTE ]
Consider it added.
For Great Justice!
<grammarnazi>
Hey OP, Please visit "this" site and learn a thing or two:
http://www.unnecessaryquotes.com/
You know, it's "cute" the first time, but after a while...sheesh.
</grammarnazi>
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
They made it apparent to the devs with exactly the same result as if they had filed a bug report.
[/ QUOTE ]
Not if they proceeded to exploit that bug to their advantage, over and over. Most responsible bug reporters don't do that.
That's like, oh, saying the bank should thank you and give you money for proving they were insecure by robbing them.
Now, maybe if the Devs awarded Bug Hunter and deleted all the new 50s... that might be fair.
[/ QUOTE ]
This just in, geting a lvl 50 by not so legit means in a game that you pay for to play is now on par with bank robbing.
Maybe they should delete YOU. lol.
Where is strongbad when you need him?
[ QUOTE ]
<grammarnazi>
Hey OP, Please visit "this" site and learn a thing or two:
http://www.unnecessaryquotes.com/
You know, it's "cute" the first time, but after a while...sheesh.
</grammarnazi>
[/ QUOTE ]
A very funny site...
however, if you are referring to when I said have a "farm" checkbox, the word farm is in quotes not because it is being used as a euphemism, but because the quotes are enclosing a text string (think programming) that might be used to label the checkbox and/or it's associated Boolean variable.
PS. If you like funny grammar sites, the grandaddy of the all is:
http://www.engrish.com
Use sparingly to avoid rib splits from laughing too hard and too long.
For Great Justice!
[ QUOTE ]
I swear, three specific fixes would I think put *everyone* in a better mood:
1) Have a "farm" checkbox, if checked (or if the devs think an unchecked mission is really a farm), it gets listed on its OWN tab in AE (or equally workable, you could have a check box in the AE filter to filter out farms or to show ONLY farms.)
2) Make an official FARM broadcast channel. Make farming people use it.
3) Make AE/MA be it's own seprate zone, like the disco place, that you can access from each AE site - that way all broadcast stays within AE, and there's just one AE, not seven.
Edit: by request:
4) Add in an additional difficulty slider that lets you set the spawned for size, in both the regular and AE missions. Farmers don't like having to ask people to pad and people don't like being bothered
[/ QUOTE ]
This is a fantastic idea. If farms are to exist, then I would love for them to be separate from the good host of other creative constructs.
however, if they were to make AE it's own place, they'd need to have multiple floors of the designer stage.. like seven or eight of them, because as it is right now, one is not enough in some places.
If I don't design my stories in the private room while i'm in Cap Au Diable, i WILL crash 
~Valko - Winged Sentinel of the Qozo Griffons
Virtue Server
[ QUOTE ]
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[And in doing so make the game frustraing for those of us who like to play in a reasonable, intelligent fashion not governed by go-fever and treasure-lust.
[/ QUOTE ]
Must be nice to have the right to force others to do things your way to satisfy your whims
[/ QUOTE ]
You tell me. You're the one forcing me to put up with things I find frustrating.
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Please expand on how one group farming is intruding on how you play your game?
[/ QUOTE ]
You make the gaming environment frustrating. I have to choose between turning off the broadcast channel, or else put up with hundreds of farm-spam an hour just on the off chance that someone says something I want to hear. That is frustrating, and frustrating equals not fun.
It is growing increasingly difficult to put together a team for non-AE content at all, let alone non-farm AE content. Three out of four times I invited someone to a team today, the person would join, and then immediately quit when they found out we'd be doing missions rather than just farming. Six out of the six teams I was invited to today were AE farm teams, despite my search comment being "I DO NOT FARM! NO EXCEPTIONS!" That is frustrating, and frustrating equals not fun.
The lag caused by the gathering o' farmers is frustrating. Frustrating equals not fun.
The fact that, like others here have found, no one is interested in playing story arcs that actually have stories, despite the hours one puts into their AE creations is frustrating. Frustrating equals not fun.
The arrogant, overbearing, and pushy attitude farmers have toward non-farmers is frustrating. (Best example? How about the human toadstool who, just a couple of posts ago in this very thread, called me lazy and stupid, which, given that the entire concept of farming is based on "I don't want to have to actually play the game" is also hypocrisy writ large?) Frustrating equals non-fun.
The utter lack of concern farmers hold toward other people is frustrating. When we non-farmers bring up how we dislike the entire City of Farmers problem, your immediate reaction is to poo-poo our concerns as if we weren't really feeling what we were feeling (or even better, tell us we have no justification for our feelings), and that we have to allow you to play as you like and are evil or something for even considering trying to make farming harder for you... but that we, the non-farmers, just have to suck it up when you, the farmers, make it harder for us to have fun too. That's frustrating. And frustrating equals not fun.
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Because all you are saying to those of us on the other side is that "You guys should be made to play like I want you to" All we are saying is "We should be allowed to play like we want and you should be allowed to play like you want as long as noone is breaking any rules."
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Ah, but "not breaking any rules" isn't good enough, I'm afraid. Its entirely possible in this game to treat another human being like fecal material without breaking any rules; the fact that its not against the rules doesn't make it right.
If what you are doing makes things less fun for me, then you should be willing to compromise with me to make things fun for both of us. I'm certainly willing. I've yet to hear one farmer say anything of the sort, however; as I have already pointed out, the average response from farmers is "S T F U!".
Really constructive. And frustrating. And you should know by now what frustrating equals.
Addendum: The atttitude the farmers are displaying now really reflects back to the gankers and the poo monkeys who used to howl and rage and beat their chests any time anyone suggested that it wasn't their perfect right to screw over other human beings in PvP. Not just beat them, but humiliate them, make fun of them, insult them, and drive them out of PvP.
Are you guys really sure you want *that* to be your representative attitude?
(QR)
Fine, I'll take out the comparison to other/RL actions entirely.
Are you seriously claiming that the responsible way to bring a bug to the devs' attention is not to file an official bug report and then leave it alone, but to file no bug report and massively exploit it so that they will notice it in their datamining?
If it is a bug, then you shouldn't profit from it. Thus my suggestion to remove the ill-gotten 50s.
My characters at Virtueverse
Faces of the City
[ QUOTE ]
(QR)
Fine, I'll take out the comparison to other/RL actions entirely.
Are you seriously claiming that the responsible way to bring a bug to the devs' attention is not to file an official bug report and then leave it alone, but to file no bug report and massively exploit it so that they will notice it in their datamining?
If it is a bug, then you shouldn't profit from it. Thus my suggestion to remove the ill-gotten 50s.
[/ QUOTE ]
what it comes down to, is the devs reaction is the same either way. that simple. are you mad at the people with bughunter?
also, a changing the reward on a mob is not a bugfix. it is changing the reward. If they suddenly decided that freakbosses were giving too much xp, they would lower it. would that make the toons you have "ill gotten"?
There will be changes in the MA rewards, some of them to stop outliers(not bugs) and some just because the devs feel it should be changed. They are the devs, that is their prerogative.
Lots of 50's yada yada. still finding fun things to do.
Cthulhu loves you, better start running
I�! I�! Gg�gorsch�a�bha egurtsa�ar�ug d� Dalhor! Cthluhu fthagn! Cthluhu fthagn!
You are in a maze of twisty little passages
I'll be honest, I'd like to see the meow-50's completly zeroed out. No money, no items, no slotted enhancements, sent back to level one.
------------------
Punishments aside, the real problem with these new farms is that unlike old farms, which were a way for experienced players to skip content they'd already completed, these new farms are open and easy access for player's who've just bought the recently released retail box, and so they'll have the entire leveling system completed a day after buying the game and wonder what the $#@% is going on.
I've seen it happen already (50 brute in Grandville joining a LRSF team and then asking what Enhancements were.) and that is very bad for the health of the game.
This new brand is also substantially faster than the older brand. Zero effort for massive reward. And everyone who is not new knows this is a drastic change from that rate, even of the best fire/kin mindlessly farming family in a loaded mission.
Simply, if you don't know that this is out of place, even for farming, and wrong, you really don't have much common sense.
Honestly cassandra the main differnce is that people who are power gamers(not the people abusing exploits) are caught up in the slugfest and are being painted with a very very broad brush as being an ebil farmer.
There are alot of us who just enjoy a challenge. and who are not packing comm officers in our maps. those of us here defending power gaming are not the comm officer exploiters or the meow farmers. We are the ones who are getting even more rewards for our arc than the comm officers but we are fighting elite boss spawns together as a super team. but a run takes an hour and a half due to the challenges.
We are playing how we want for our 15 $ we are not breaking any rules. We were told by poshyb that the limit to the number of av's and eb's was the spawn count on the maps. So we are not abusing anything. Yet alot of the anti "farming crowd" have taken it upon themselves to report our maps as "farming" even when there is no exploit being used. That is why we can claim to leave us alone and that your 15$ is no better than ours. If you are the one on a crusade to change us then you have no ground to stand on.
my sg will not use a ritki exploit map. Mainly because we do not like to fight them. they are too easy to kill. we fight enemies that require everyone to play a role in taking them down. Our favorite map right now contains elite bosses that are a mix of fire melee/invul, dual blades/invul and super strength/regen
Our team make up is a ss/invul tank, my fire/rad, and a rad/archery defender. Maybe a blaster here and there.
We have a blast fighting those spawns and even pulling two spawns together. We are talking eb spawns that are not gimped by any means. And yet some anti farmer will enter our mission and flag it as a farm without even getting close enough to see what enemies are in there.
Do not preach to us on your crusade to alter our game and try to say your 15$ entitles you to do so.
Ok i guess I am done venting and I won't be posting in this thread any longer. Untill a dev tells me I am wrong the rest of you can suck an egg