A final, maybe stickieable, word on farming?

Metatron_NA · 04-27-2009 06:21 AM

TO SUM UP:

Some people game for the XP and other rewards. They seek out the most favorable methods of gaining it that are still fun. These people are doing nothing wrong and should be permitted to continue - indeed, cannot be stopped from continuing.

However, some methods of gaining to XP may be considered by the devs to be too successful. When identified, the devs have the option of changing/nerfing such methods. Of course, we all hope that they do not throw the baby with the bathwater, that is, we wouldn't want to cut off our nose to spite our face and have them make a change to the game that winds up hurting a significant number of people's play in order to fix a possibly minor issue.

For example, everyone seems to be in agreement that they do not want the devs to reduce XP in AE to zero, as a prime example of hurting too many people in the pursuit of a smaller goal.

Now, there is a group of people, which I personally believe to be a vocal minority, that does wants to forbid people who play this game from playing the "wrong" way. These people think we "should" all be focused on the story and RP elements, and not on gaining rewards effectively.

There is no defense of such a position. One cannnot support a position of discrimination against players of CoX based on what they enjoy when they play the game or on what they pursue.

That is NOT to say that one cannot take and defend a position that the devs ought to address technique X which possibly gives way too much rewards - such as for example, perhaps comm officers. But it is a very different thing to try to bring to the devs attention pieces of the game that the devs might want to consider looking at for effort/reward balancing than to try to get one's fellow players "in trouble" for prioritizing the pursuit of effective rewards.

To put another way, THERE WILL ALWAYS BE "FARMING". (I define "farming" in this discussion as using in-game methods to pursue maximized reward rates.) No matter what anyone does, there will always be ways to play the game that are more effective at garnering rewards. And what is clearly obvious, there will always be a large group of people trying to figure that out and take advantage of it - perhaps even the majority. THIS IS NOT IMMORAL, THIS IS SIMPLY INTELLIGENT.

It's up to the devs to continually edit, update, and adjust the game to fix any problem they find with it, including places where they think the game is unbalanced. And it's perfectly fine for players to point out to the devs what they feel could qualify as that. But to pursue, harass, and vilify other *players* for simply having the good sense to game effectively using the tools the devs have placed in front of us all is not only entirely wrong, it is entirely naive.

Complain to the devs about things like comm officers, or broken maps, or any other game pieces. But if you don't like how I or anyone else plays a game that we pay for, that we are all playing AS DESIGNED (as none of us are hacking it) then come crying to these boards if you must, but know that if the devs have even the barest smidgen of rationality, they will ignore your calls for a witchhunt. And given the fact that they seem to be permitting farming in its core sense to continue unimpeded, it would appear that they are fully aware that that is how some people play. I suspect their concerns are ONLY about making sure the game is not unbalanced.

To recap, no matter what ANYONE does, it is impossible to balance the game perfectly, there will ALWAYS be choices to be made that yield different rates of reward. And many if not most will frequently choose the better rewarding play style.

One cannot change that without changing human nature and the fundamental truths of reason.

So perhaps we would all be best served by identifying ourselves as one of the following three types:

1) anti-exploit and concerned about bringing to the devs attention portions of the game which may not be balanced
(a rational approach)

2) having fun with the game as it is, and needing no change to it
(which is fine)

3) insanely pro-RP and with a personal vendetta against people who play the game in ways one doesn't approve of
(which is more than a little cuckoo)

Let's also all continue to keep in mind that any "fix" that breaks more than it fixes is not a fix, and in such a circumstance, the better choice is to refrain from applying ANY "fixes" until one can be crafted that does more good than harm.

Make sense everybody? I think ALL of us agree that the devs can and should continue to make the game better in whatever way the devs define "better" - and if that includes making sure that the reward rate stays within a certain range, that's the devs' choice to make.

The concomitant piece of that is, however, that any player is welcome to play the game anywhere within that range - even if it is consistently toward the good side of that range.

The second concomitant piece is that it is up to the devs to explicitly define that range - hopefully by adjusting the game itself so that it is not possible to achieve results outside of it, but at the VERY least, by giving enough specific guidance so that the players can obey the devs' rules. After all, no rational human being can expect a driver on a highway to obey a speed limit that is kept secret.

This sums up the state of things vis-a-vis effective gaming in CoX, often called farming. There is clearly nothing wrong with it. If someone has a problem with farming as an act, they are either 1) having a problem with an area of the CoX mechanics or programming that might possibly benefit from an alteration (in which case, make suggestions to the devs) or 2) have a problem with the fact that some people play the game differently from them (in which case, come to these forums and cry, I guess)

One final note: It is true that effective gaming can have secondary effects that may possibly not be desired - people have mentioned the possibility of deletrious and unwanted market effects, and of course, the spam issues.

To some extent, in an MMO, one can not be completely free of the negative effects of being in a game with a massive population. However, the secondary effects are themselves entirely covered by what I have written: if the devs see a problem, they are encouraged to alter the game to fix it, so long as that alteration does more good than harm, of course. For example, perhaps they might rebalance the various drops, or have a special broadcast channel created for broadcasting for teams, etc.

This is a good thing - we want the devs attending to any real issues and also increasing our quality of life in the game. But never think for a moment that there is any possible way to address these secondary issues by forbidding players from pursuing effective reward rates - that not only will not happen, it quite simply can not.

As long as there are choices to be made, there will be people working together to make those choices as effectively as the system permits. That will ALWAYS happen.

It's up to the devs to decide what those range of choices should be.

It's up to NO ONE to decide what ways to play the game are acceptable, except for each individual player.

QED.

[Edited for spelling mistake.]

For Great Justice!

Twoflower · 04-27-2009 06:33 AM

[ QUOTE ]
1) anti-exploit and concerned about bringing to the devs attention portions of the game which may not be balanced
(a rational approach)

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll take that camp. Obviously not everybody is going to write story-focused arcs, that's impossible. But things like Rikti Comm Officers and other way-too-much-XP for way-too-little-risk type exploits need to die in a fire.

The whole point of game design is to have your risk meet your reward -- that the fun is in the challenge. If some oversight of the devs in the number crunching results in Juicy Bunnies of XP Giving you can effortlessly toss into the combine harvester of a full team, that needs to be changed.

If someone just wants to make a map full of Council and farm it, sure thing -- just like newspapers. They may be 'easy' but they're still capable of fighting back decently.

Global @Twoflower / MA Creator & Pro Indie Game Developer.
Mission Architect Works: DIY Laser Moonbase (Dev Choice!), An Internship in the Fine Art of Revenge (2009 MA Award Winner!) and many more! Plus Brand New Arcs for Issue 21!

Shadowstepper · 04-27-2009 06:45 AM

The only exploit I currently see in the missions are the no basic ranged attack for most sets. I think all mobs should have a basic pistol attack or soemthing just to keep you from being able to hover above without being in danger.

Comm officer EXP is the lesser of two evils....basically you either get harder than normal minions for crap exp or better exp for a harder challenge. They took the exp away from the summond mobs already. That is why they have better than normal exp anyway. Now if they all summoned portals as a priority in the attack chain instead of one or two of them....I think it would be a different ballgame.

Another_Fan · 04-27-2009 06:55 AM

[ QUOTE ]
The only exploit I currently see in the missions are the no basic ranged attack for most sets. I think all mobs should have a basic pistol attack or soemthing just to keep you from being able to hover above without being in danger.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL there is nothing quite so funny as watching a purpled out 50 scrapper who thinks he can take on anything wander into a spawn of no ranged attack Claws/Empaths, Katana/empaths, etc.

Twoflower · 04-27-2009 07:04 AM

I'd LOVE to have a basic pistol attack set in the editor. I have some melee+armor characters because it makes sense, and seeing them floored by immobs is disheartening. Plus, a pistol set would let us make Hellion style mega-lowbie content that doesn't wipe the floor with the PCs.

Global @Twoflower / MA Creator & Pro Indie Game Developer.
Mission Architect Works: DIY Laser Moonbase (Dev Choice!), An Internship in the Fine Art of Revenge (2009 MA Award Winner!) and many more! Plus Brand New Arcs for Issue 21!

Hyperstrike · 04-27-2009 07:24 AM

Somebody sticky the crap outta this one please.

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Metatron_NA · 04-27-2009 11:43 AM

Thanks!

For Great Justice!

Egos_Shadow · 04-27-2009 11:50 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Comm officer EXP is the lesser of two evils....basically you either get harder than normal minions for crap exp or better exp for a harder challenge. They took the exp away from the summond mobs already. That is why they have better than normal exp anyway. Now if they all summoned portals as a priority in the attack chain instead of one or two of them....I think it would be a different ballgame.

[/ QUOTE ]

They've already made a difference between the mobs you can pick for custom factions and the mobs you get with choosing the standard factions. Just look at the combiner mobs (Titans, Natterlings), Force Field Generators, or the fact that if you want a specifically placed level 45+ Freakshow boss, he must be a Noise Tank, but if you just play an MA mission with Freakshow you'll get Freak Tanks like normal.

Given that, why the *@%& you can still place Comm Officers in a custom faction is a bit boggling, but I expect that change is making its way through QA.

The answer isn't to fiddle around with the CO rewards, it's to just not let you add them to a custom faction. Bam, no more Comm farms.

@Mindshadow

Twoflower · 04-27-2009 11:55 AM

A good point. I hadn't even thought of why the ordinary Freak bosses weren't available for customs, but it makes a lot of sense... in the context of the Feakshow itself they're fine, outside that context they're exploitable. Give the Comms the same treatment, which is no doubt coming in the next patch, problem solved.

Global @Twoflower / MA Creator & Pro Indie Game Developer.
Mission Architect Works: DIY Laser Moonbase (Dev Choice!), An Internship in the Fine Art of Revenge (2009 MA Award Winner!) and many more! Plus Brand New Arcs for Issue 21!

Toril · 04-27-2009 12:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The only exploit I currently see in the missions are the no basic ranged attack for most sets. I think all mobs should have a basic pistol attack or soemthing just to keep you from being able to hover above without being in danger.

Comm officer EXP is the lesser of two evils....basically you either get harder than normal minions for crap exp or better exp for a harder challenge. They took the exp away from the summond mobs already. That is why they have better than normal exp anyway. Now if they all summoned portals as a priority in the attack chain instead of one or two of them....I think it would be a different ballgame.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would prefer they go back to the original method of normal comm officer xp, but you get xp from the mobs that come from the portals. And allow every officer to be able to open a portal.

Fun times were had during those days and there was risk in those spawns.

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Folonius · 04-27-2009 12:53 PM

Outstanding post, and well said.

hedgehog_NA · 04-27-2009 12:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
A good point. I hadn't even thought of why the ordinary Freak bosses weren't available for customs, but it makes a lot of sense... in the context of the Feakshow itself they're fine, outside that context they're exploitable. Give the Comms the same treatment, which is no doubt coming in the next patch, problem solved.

[/ QUOTE ]

First..an exploit is using a loophole in the code. There is no loophole here. no exploit. WAI. Using comm officers opens you up for those annoying no xp mobs that pop out. They could always restore the xp they give and drop comm officers back down.

second, they removed the combinable mobs because as allies, they would combine with the player, killing them. This would be bad.

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FreshFish · 04-27-2009 01:08 PM

While they probably will make it so comm officers cant be set in standard groups, that's really gonna suck for me. I have a mish where Comm officers can spawn, but they are also surrounded by the many other enemies with them, including nemesis, mastermind summoners, and rularuu. I'd rather see the devs just make a crap copy file of the current Comm officers, rename it, and then make it so they can and all will summon their portals at first notice of an enemy- and then stick that in for people to use in MA. Not that this is the habit of what devs have been doing so far. It doesn't seem like it would have been hard to do with immune engineers, just giving them a couple attacks.

And seriously, people already can make horribly weak baddies customly to farm. While some standard enemies may be better for exp, custom enemies are always an option. But as for farms, i say simply putting a ticket cap per person per mish would be a better idea. Then it wouldnt matter how big of a farm a person made, because they would still be stuck only getting so many tickets.

Ive also noticed that people are able to do things like put the farm on the second mission of an arc, make the first mission seem impossible to beat (All AVs, but one clickable named "Defeat Gorge"), and then no one ever gets to the second mission to see the farm because no one wants to mess around with the first one. People will find as many sneaky ways to take advantage of gains as they can, but if there is a hard cap, it will make it less worthwhile.

And personally, im tired of all the crap missions that exist in MA in the first place. One would expect it with it being new and only certain people being hard-working enough and/or gifted enough to make decent content, but when I want to try something new, and only get junk over and over again, its really disheartening to even want to think about the MA. Which is another reason farms would be a bit enticing to people, because they are probably faceplanting in the "Im gunna make dah must uber mish eva" mishs. Getting almost as much debt as exp doesnt really make sense.

JKwervo · 04-27-2009 01:08 PM

Why are the naysayers act like there aren't anything else that can be used to farm besides Comm Officers?

Like seriously....there are OTHER Lieutenants out there that can be used with ease, to gain XP and what not.

There is nothing "exploited" anymore. It's working as intended. But hey...I'm not opposed to some "changes." Taking Comm Officers, that's fine. No big blow to me. I'll just find something else to farm. Either way, I'll still gain my XP/Inf/Tickets, whatever.

Egos_Shadow · 04-27-2009 01:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A good point. I hadn't even thought of why the ordinary Freak bosses weren't available for customs, but it makes a lot of sense... in the context of the Feakshow itself they're fine, outside that context they're exploitable. Give the Comms the same treatment, which is no doubt coming in the next patch, problem solved.

[/ QUOTE ]

First..an exploit is using a loophole in the code. There is no loophole here. no exploit. WAI. Using comm officers opens you up for those annoying no xp mobs that pop out. They could always restore the xp they give and drop comm officers back down.

[/ QUOTE ]

I also would hesitate to call a faction of all comm officers an exploit. But, similarly, I wouldn't call a faction of all comm officers working as intended. They're only balanced in terms of risk and reward when used as part of the whole Rikti faction.

But, to try and get ahead of the usual, incredibly pointless definitional twiddling over "farm", "exploit", etc, regardless of what we call it, they give an unbalanced reward. I wouldn't expect them to stick around the way they are for that much longer.

@Mindshadow

Egos_Shadow · 04-27-2009 01:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Why are the naysayers act like there aren't anything else that can be used to farm besides Comm Officers?

[/ QUOTE ]

The "you can't fix everything, so you shouldn't fix anything" argument is always kind of amusing. I often see it referred to as "declaring the perfect the enemy of the good".

@Mindshadow

dugfromthearth · 04-27-2009 01:20 PM

Exploit:
1. To employ to the greatest possible advantage
2. To make use of selfishly or unethically

There is nothing in the definition about it having to use a loophole, or violate the rules, or be fattening.

An exploit is by definition using something to its greatest possible advantage. An exploit becomes a problem the greatest possible advantage is too far above "normal".

That's why there was ED - 6 slotted damage was just too much better than no slotted. The devs could not balance the game for those exploiting enhancements and those not using them.

If the devs see missions of just comm officers as being too efficient and effective - they will nerf it.

JKwervo · 04-27-2009 01:21 PM

This whole issue is deemed "LOL" to me. This debate has been going on for forever.

I like the "arguing" of both sides. It is entertainment. :O

Egos_Shadow · 04-27-2009 01:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This whole issue is deemed "LOL" to me. This debate has been going on for forever.

I like the "arguing" of both sides. It is entertainment. :O

[/ QUOTE ]

All I heard was "blah blah farmin' mah post count blah".

In an amusing coincidence, this was all I was saying as well.

@Mindshadow

Ledain · 04-27-2009 01:28 PM

Well said.

Twoflower · 04-27-2009 01:29 PM

Semantics aside, the point is that anything which grants unbalanced risk vs. reward (specifically, laughably pitiful risk for awesometastic reward) should be dealt with. Call it whatever word you want, that's the end goal.

And yes, there's more than Rikti Comms. That's just a working example of the sort of thing that needs some rethinking, to prevent effortless XP gain.

Global @Twoflower / MA Creator & Pro Indie Game Developer.
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Steele_Magnolia · 04-27-2009 02:02 PM

Comm officers and other mobs aren't effortless xp gain, there's no such thing in MA. Low effort and low risk xp gain is another argument. On large teams with sufficient firepower or control mowing through comms officers is not hard, soloing them on many characters is not easy by comparison.

Being able to put comms officers into custom groups is something they should have fixed a week ago when it was clearly apparent what was going on.

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Shadowstepper · 04-27-2009 03:16 PM

So what is the difference between me soloing through a set of rikti com officers collecting prestige/inf/tickets and mowing through a spawn on the wall for prestige/inf/drops? Niether of these provide any challenge to my brute, neither have me in any danger of death, both can be done at a high rate of speed, both can be fought at will since the wall spawns fast enough to do so and the AE can be reset at will. If anything the comms are harder for the reward as they all shoot me instead of rushing into the range of my footstomps.

The ae is fine, the exp is fine. If they would just give all custom mobs a generic pistol/pistolwhip ranged/melee attack so they would be able to hit anyone from any position, I would be perfectly happy and I am a farmer

Metatron_NA · 04-27-2009 05:22 PM

Hopefully the devs will decide whether comm officers reward too much or not - I am happy with whatever they decide.

I have no attachment to any specific strategy for better xp, and am happy enough even if it is a moving target that the devs continually adjust and update.

I just hope that on behalf on myself and the apparently large number of like-minded others, that those of us who like to find and use the upper range of what's permissible are no longer seen as "the bad guys".

For Great Justice!

AddamsFamily · 04-27-2009 05:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
So what is the difference between me soloing through a set of rikti com officers collecting prestige/inf/tickets and mowing through a spawn on the wall for prestige/inf/drops? Niether of these provide any challenge to my brute, neither have me in any danger of death, both can be done at a high rate of speed, both can be fought at will since the wall spawns fast enough to do so and the AE can be reset at will. If anything the comms are harder for the reward as they all shoot me instead of rushing into the range of my footstomps.

The ae is fine, the exp is fine. If they would just give all custom mobs a generic pistol/pistolwhip ranged/melee attack so they would be able to hit anyone from any position, I would be perfectly happy and I am a farmer

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem with the Comm Officers is the amount of the reward given.

If you hit them before they have a chance to open their portal, they never summon help. At that point they're no more dangerous than a Minion (and if you check, that's what they're listed as) but they give rewards as if they're Lieutenants.

It would be comparable to going through the creatures on the wall, and having them give rewards 5 times greater than if you had defeated an equal number of opponents, of equal difficulty, somewhere else. That's how screwed up a mission full of Rikti Communications Officers is.

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