Let's talk about pre-20 endurance management.
By
AprilShade,
Posted on: 2009-04-18 16:05 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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You know Pippy, I was thinking about this today amidst all of the X spots left for AE farm team broadcasts and it suddenly dawned upon me that the devs HAVE given us unlimited health and endurance just now in I14.
All it costs is a tad of debt (nothing prior to level 10) that is elliminated after killing a mob or 2. Just play in the AE from 1-20. The hospital is right next to the mission entrance no matter what kind of mission you are running.
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You're a genius!
I'd still like to have a quicker recharge on Rest. But I think this will do just fine. 
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Well that does bring up another question. If you are hovering why are you even taking hot feet at all? Hot Feet only works when you are on the ground.
Hot Feet - While active, you heat the earth in a large area around yourself. Enemy movement is Slowed as they attempt to flee the immediate area. All foes in the affected area suffer some damage over time. You cannot fly and must be near the ground to use this power.
Paragon wiki - Fire control
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Not sure if this bit of misinformation has been addressed earlier. If not:
Wiki and the power's text are wrong (or at least deceptive) and have been since the beginning. Hot Feet works perfectly well while airborne. You can only activate it while grounded, but once it's active, it's active and it works just fine as both my level 50 hovering Fire Controllers can happily demonstrate.
I am not totally opposed to making endurance management easier than the current state. I am not convinced it is good idea, however.
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I've said that you're better off not using rest more often than is absolutely necessary.
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So you are not actually saying anything.
If you want to speak about using Rest more often in order to help a low level player, it is reasonable to start from a point where you use Rest with a moderate degree of brainpower. Instead, you want to make it clear that if you use Rest all the time, even when unneeded, then you would be lowering your speed through missions. I think that is pretty clear. I'd rather not bother discussing times when one's health and end bars are at 75%, but instead actually start the conversation where we conclude that one needs Rest. I thought that is where we started, but you have now backed all the way down to this ludicrous position.
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I've simply said that a character who's sole means of endurance management is Rest is, because of Rest's inherent downtime and other drawbacks, will take longer to get through a mission than one who also has other means of endurance management.
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Your statement is irrelevant. Will someone who has Rest on a three minute timer and uses other means of endurance management take longer to get through a mission (several missions) than someone who has Rest whenever they want? Will teams who have Rest on a three minute timer and use other means of endurance management take longer to get through a mission (several missions) than a team who has Rest whenever they want? If so, then you have improved speed and activity by shortening Rest's recharge (your stated goal, so I am unsure why you keep trying to downplay it). How often will players use Rest in that scenario? How much will Rest with no recharge eliminate our need to worry about end/health concerns?
Perhaps I team more than you and have a different perspective. I can see using Rest almost all the time with nothing but benefit. Tanker runs in, Blaster / Scrappers unleash hell, repeat. When attackers are low on end, they can Rest while Tanker gathers spawn. If Tanker gets low on health, he can pull out and let the team take remaining aggro (since all AoEs are usable at whim because endurance is a non-issue, taking aggro from a lowbie tanker is even easier than normal, and with enemies dying faster less of a problem) and Rest while the team finishes that spawn. You can also choose to cease Rest early without any real penalty when needed. "Hey, I am up to half end and the Tanker got an extra spawn he didn't count on, I'll get in there now." There are more concerns like these that should be taken into consideration, IMO, before simply declaring that Rest with low to zero recharge is not over the top and would be lower performing than other end management techniques.
I use Rest pretty frequently right now on almost every character I play, even in the higher levels. I can use it and have no one notice in many, many cases (my teammates can occasionally handle the last 10 seconds of a spawn and the first 5 or 6 of the next spawn while I am kneeling) . If you give it to me with zero recharge, you better believe I can and will use it to much greater effect than you seem to believe is possible.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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You know Pippy, I was thinking about this today amidst all of the X spots left for AE farm team broadcasts and it suddenly dawned upon me that the devs HAVE given us unlimited health and endurance just now in I14.
All it costs is a tad of debt (nothing prior to level 10) that is elliminated after killing a mob or 2. Just play in the AE from 1-20. The hospital is right next to the mission entrance no matter what kind of mission you are running.
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You're a genius!
I'd still like to have a quicker recharge on Rest. But I think this will do just fine.
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Heck, it's even easier than this. Create a mission on a large map with an easy built-in enemy type, and a rescuable boss-level ally with basic Earth Control and extreme Empathy placed in the Front area. Tada, you've solved end management, as well as HP management, accuracy issues, mitigation...
Unless, of course, you're not a high-damage AT. Because while a damage AT can build a support ally to cover their weaknesses, adding a damage ally to a support AT will rob you of XP.
@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
A better algorithm for ordering MA arcs
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Well that does bring up another question. If you are hovering why are you even taking hot feet at all? Hot Feet only works when you are on the ground.
Hot Feet - While active, you heat the earth in a large area around yourself. Enemy movement is Slowed as they attempt to flee the immediate area. All foes in the affected area suffer some damage over time. You cannot fly and must be near the ground to use this power.
Paragon wiki - Fire control
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Not sure if this bit of misinformation has been addressed earlier. If not:
Wiki and the power's text are wrong (or at least deceptive) and have been since the beginning. Hot Feet works perfectly well while airborne. You can only activate it while grounded, but once it's active, it's active and it works just fine as both my level 50 hovering Fire Controllers can happily demonstrate.
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It is indeed. I tested it after posting (none of my fire trollers ever took flight, I have a jumper, a teleporter, and a speeder) using a jet pack. You can't toggle it on while flying but it works fine if you toggle it on and then fly.
I wonder if that is unintended but is not repairable. For instance rooted prevents you from being affected by group fly and if you are group flying you can't turn rooted on (though you should be able to and then drop like, well a stone.)
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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Because while a damage AT can build a support ally to cover their weaknesses, adding a damage ally to a support AT will rob you of XP.
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Haven't tested this, but isn't it like the Confuse code, where the damage they do is weighted less? I.e., if they do 50% of the damage, they only steal (making numbers up) 25% of the xp?
If so, it could be advantageous to use an Elite Boss ally for damage as well.
The MA buff-bot brings up an interesting question: since it's trivially possible to use the MA for endurance management, wouldn't it be reasonable to add quickly recharging rest to encourage people to go through the non-MA early-game content?
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Haven't tested this, but isn't it like the Confuse code, where the damage they do is weighted less? I.e., if they do 50% of the damage, they only steal (making numbers up) 25% of the xp?
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Good question.
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The MA buff-bot brings up an interesting question: since it's trivially possible to use the MA for endurance management, wouldn't it be reasonable to add quickly recharging rest to encourage people to go through the non-MA early-game content?
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You're assuming here that the MA buff-bot ally is working as intended, and that the devs really meant to give us allies with tier 9 Defender powers at level 1 (and conversely that MA custom enemies should have access to tier 9 powers at level 1). I have my doubts about this, and I certainly wouldn't use it as a base for any argument to otherwise improve low level endurance management.
I'm mostly just saying that if you personally have difficulties with low-level endurance management, right now there is a phenomenally effective way around this. However, it's not really relevant to the key concern, which is that low level end management might be driving away new players, because it's unlikely that a new player knows to rush straight to the AE building and write himself a farm (and, indeed, this would be a terrible way to experience the game's content for the first time).
@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
A better algorithm for ordering MA arcs
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However, it's not really relevant to the key concern, which is that low level end management might be driving away new players, because it's unlikely that a new player knows to rush straight to the AE building and write himself a farm (and, indeed, this would be a terrible way to experience the game's content for the first time).
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I wouldn't necessarily underestimate how quickly people can find out the most advantageous possible situation: witness how quickly FotM builds spread, or how thoroughly so many new players have been convinced that stamina/hasten/<insert power here> is "required" without actually understanding the arguments.
But it's not that hard to imagine a fairly robust response to widespread broadcast in AP along the lines of "MA team forming, 1-20 in only 2 hours!" Doesn't take that long for newbies to find out about sewer teams, and I don't see why it would take any longer in this case.
I didn't read the entire thread, but I'd like to chip in my opinion anyway. I just came back, and am having terrible endurance problems as a Katana/SR Scrapper. I know how to play the market, I know how the game mechanics work, you just run through END pretty quick if you chain attacks effectively. DO's from Architect Tickets help alot, but they aren't the end-all I'm afraid.
I like suggestion 1. Being out of END before Rest is back is depressing.
As an aside, who actually MANAGES END past 20-ish anyway? I know on my Brute I slotted stuff as I needed to make sure I could run all 4 of my toggles and do whatever I wanted attack wise, and would never have to think about END in the slightest. It feels like it's just tacked on to make low levels more aggravating.
I've been levelling a ninja blade/willpower stalker the past couple of weeks. He's 23 now and never had any problems with endurance. I slotted for end and he needed to burn blues exactly once, during a protracted fight with an EB.
Never played any of my previous stalkers past 10th level, maybe they're some sort of end-light AT. But mine was smooth sailing, endurance wise.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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I've been levelling a ninja blade/willpower stalker the past couple of weeks. He's 23 now and never had any problems with endurance. I slotted for end and he needed to burn blues exactly once, during a protracted fight with an EB.
Never played any of my previous stalkers past 10th level, maybe they're some sort of end-light AT. But mine was smooth sailing, endurance wise.
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Stalkers are sort of endurance efficient in normal solo missions. I'm not sure if you're soloing or not, but being able to obliterate one foe every spawn does wonders for your endurance needs.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Basically, yeah, Stalkers have "First and last guy free" in every fight. Makes soloing pretty crisp.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
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Haven't tested this, but isn't it like the Confuse code, where the damage they do is weighted less? I.e., if they do 50% of the damage, they only steal (making numbers up) 25% of the xp?
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No, it's significantly a stronger effect than that.
One hit from X-Ray Beam from an AV onto a boss, accounting for something like 10% of the bosses life took off around 20% of his net worth in XP/inf. Those were estimates, but it looks like it's around a 2:1 ratio of reward lost to percentage damage dealt by the ally.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Well for my brute when leveling up he basically didn't have his toggles on till I got Stamina around lvl 20 or 22 as his damage output was goode enough and he had the hitpoints to survive what was being thrown at him most of the time.
In reply to the OP's original suggestions.
1) Reducing the recharge of rest would be great. I wouldn't reduce it any more than 30-50%, because its pretty close to being available almost every time its truly needed.
2) Reducing or eliminating the end cost for brawl and the origin attack would be superb.
I'm not so sure about the other suggestions, although I don't think they'd be particularly game-breaking either.
It's not that I'm against buffs to some of the low level powers. I'm greedy enough to go "Gimme! Gimme! Gimme!"
However, there's the fact that at lower levels, you're NOT supposed to be able to attack like a madman, and a continuous pace, throughout a mission. It's good training for end management that should serve you well later in in the game when your enhancements allow for a bit more leeway. THEN you can blast away like a maniac for the duration of your missions.
As has been said, your best bets for conserving end are as follows. And more or less in this order of importance.
Accuracy (assures less end wasted on missed attacks)
EndRedux (directly lowers your end utilization)
Damage (killing enemies faster means you attack less, and expend correspondingly less end)
As noted, you're STILL going to have to rest on occasion, and you'll periodically drain your end bar. Just carry a few blue inspies to tide you over.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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As has been said, your best bets for conserving end are as follows. And more or less in this order of importance.
Accuracy (assures less end wasted on missed attacks)
EndRedux (directly lowers your end utilization)
Damage (killing enemies faster means you attack less, and expend correspondingly less end)
As noted, you're STILL going to have to rest on occasion, and you'll periodically drain your end bar. Just carry a few blue inspies to tide you over.
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I have to disagree with this order of slotting - accuracy does come first but until you hit the damage cap, slotting damage and end reduction is of equal value as far as improving DPE and since more damage means killing faster (and taking less damage yourself) it is always better to slot for damage, once you are at the accuracy cap.
The exception to this is brutes - who generate so much damage bonus through fury that they are actually better off slotting for end reduction first.
Globals: @Midnight Mystique/@Magik13
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However, there's the fact that at lower levels, you're NOT supposed to be able to attack like a madman, and a continuous pace, throughout a mission. It's good training for end management that should serve you well later in in the game when your enhancements allow for a bit more leeway.
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How is having endurance management suck early in the game good training for anything in the late game, where endurance management is dramatically easier because you have so many more options, all of which are more effective?
Endurance management in the lowbie game isn't good for anything except making me not want to play my lowbie alts.
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However, there's the fact that at lower levels, you're NOT supposed to be able to attack like a madman, and a continuous pace, throughout a mission. It's good training for end management that should serve you well later in in the game when your enhancements allow for a bit more leeway.
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How is having endurance management suck early in the game good training for anything in the late game, where endurance management is dramatically easier because you have so many more options, all of which are more effective?
Endurance management in the lowbie game isn't good for anything except making me not want to play my lowbie alts.
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This, a thousand times over.
Something seriously needs to be done to fix this problem in the early levels. It's to the point I don't even want to play anything lower than level 25 any more, because the early game sucks hairy donkey balls. I haven't played a character under 50 with any regularity for probably 9 months now. Considering that much of this game's replay value comes from alts, this is NOT A GOOD THING.
Fix the frigging early levels and you wouldn't have seen such a huge problem with Mission Architect powerleveling either. There's a reason everyone wants to skip those levels.
"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty."
"Nothing is unchangeable but the inherent and unalienable rights of man."
- Thomas Jefferson
I don't understand this discussion at all.
Before stamina, end management is a pain in the backside unless you use regen. Or a tank with WP.
It sucks. It makes the game dull and annoying. I've fully fallen into the camp that powerlevels to 22.
I am Jack's disgust towards downtime.
Be well, people of CoH.
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I don't understand this discussion at all.
Before stamina, end management is a pain in the backside unless you use regen. Or a tank with WP.
It sucks. It makes the game dull and annoying. I've fully fallen into the camp that powerlevels to 22.
I am Jack's disgust towards downtime.
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There is no discussion possible. There is the correct position, which you support, and there's any other position, all of which are wrong.
"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty."
"Nothing is unchangeable but the inherent and unalienable rights of man."
- Thomas Jefferson
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I don't understand this discussion at all.
Before stamina, end management is a pain in the backside unless you use regen. Or a tank with WP.
It sucks. It makes the game dull and annoying. I've fully fallen into the camp that powerlevels to 22.
I am Jack's disgust towards downtime.
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I don't disagree with any of this, and I'm a bit mystified that there seem to be so many people who do. Different strokes for different folks and all that, I guess. I just wish that the "everything is fine" crowd would be less hostile to making (relatively minor) changes that would make the early game more palatable for the "everything is not fine" crowd.
I still say Beginner's Luck for Endurance. Give it a cute name, like Wippersnapper, or Too Many Energy Drinks Last Night. One through twenty, you get this bonus, and it diminishes slightly every level. Or maybe every five levels...
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I don't disagree with any of this, and I'm a bit mystified that there seem to be so many people who do. Different strokes for different folks and all that, I guess. I just wish that the "everything is fine" crowd would be less hostile to making (relatively minor) changes that would make the early game more palatable for the "everything is not fine" crowd.
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I think part of the reason for this can boil down to a couple of things. There are those players who would feel slighted by changed that would make lowbies easier to play from an endurance standpoint. Its the whole "I ran the gauntlet, so you need to do that too" mindset.
Then you have those who sincerely, for whatever reason, feel as if things are absolutely fine the way they are. They don't mind the grind, and see no reason to change it.
I don't support either mindset. This game needs players. The game needs to be fun to keep them, and even with the XP and other changes to make leveling a bit easier, the game can still bog down and get really repetitive.
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Hee hee...
I love the "I don't have a problem with endurance pre-Stamina" posts. To those posters, I would ask: "Why do you take Stamina then?"
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What Did I Just Say!
(durn interwebs, too easy for peoples to ignore me. *shakes fist impotently*)
I dont have a problem with pre-stamina endurance because I do have a problem with pre-stamina endurance & I AM SUPPOSED TO!
Also, if we want to modify Rest we would have to ensure it doesnt become too good. If it were up after every fight we would start to see two things, we sould see new players using it all the time, after every fight (sure that would be sub-optimal, but that wont stop people from deciding that it's 'better' to go into each fight with the most possible HP & End). The second thing we would see is it competing with Stamina & other 'End Managment' tools in the post 20 game, primairly because Rest has a very significant advantage over those tools: it's free! you dont have to sacrifice power selections, slots or anything else for Rest. People would become reliant on Rest, because it is 'good enough'.
So what's bad about that? Well, Rest slows people down, and while slowing yourself down is an internal judgment, slowing any team you are on is not. (ok, stopping now, running out of steam)