Let's talk about pre-20 endurance management.
By
AprilShade,
Posted on: 2009-04-18 16:05 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
She does a mix of solo and team capers actually. I think this is going to be one of the few characters for me that makes use of the secondary build. The primary build shown was geared toward teaming and very occasional soloing. When I get around to actually playing her again (this is one of my very very off servers), I'll see what I can whip up for a viable solo build.).
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All the following suggestions are excellent, and should be required reading for new players. I'm not a new player, though, and everything you suggest is part of my normal playing style. (Except for early IO-set slotting -- I've not generally had good luck finding low-level IO sets at good prices, but I haven't been looking that hard.)
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The trick is to grab endurance reduction from the IOs that aren't as much in demand. For example, if you look for Acc/Dam, that's going to be very popular because accuracy is important, and who doesn't want to increase their damage. But other ones from the set can be VERY useful. Look at, for example, Fire Cages. You can slot not only targeted AoE sets, but immobilize too. Dam/End from the targeted AoE will go for less than Acc/Dam. If you choose from an immobilize set, you can add Immob/End or Rech/End. An Immob/End IO will go for much less than an Acc/Dam.
Dark attacks defenders use also accept to-hit debuff, so you can get good pricing on to-hit debuff/end. All those separate IOs, even at early levels like the teens, do make a difference.
Pre-20, unless you have some power that gives you endurance recovery (like Accelerate Metabolism), you don't have much choice other than slotting.
Arc ID#30821, A Clean Break
The only problem with defeating the Tsoo is that an hour later, you want to defeat them again!
"Life is just better boosted!" -- LadyMage
"I'm a big believer in Personal Force Field on a blaster. ... It's your happy place." -- Fulmens
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The trick is to grab endurance reduction from the IOs that aren't as much in demand. For example, if you look for Acc/Dam, that's going to be very popular because accuracy is important, and who doesn't want to increase their damage. But other ones from the set can be VERY useful. Look at, for example, Fire Cages. You can slot not only targeted AoE sets, but immobilize too. Dam/End from the targeted AoE will go for less than Acc/Dam. If you choose from an immobilize set, you can add Immob/End or Rech/End. An Immob/End IO will go for much less than an Acc/Dam.
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Acc/End is my favourite for early levels, but not every set has them.
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The trick is to grab endurance reduction from the IOs that aren't as much in demand.
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In principle, this is a good idea, and makes life a lot easier for a lot of builds. But it's by no means a universal panacea. I'm finding right now that most of the characters I'm leveling don't have slottable secondary effects on most of their attacks, or at least the attacks I've taken (fire/dark scrapper, storm/sonic def, fire/fire blaster, although not as much end trouble with this last if I use the ST attack chain, because the damage is so sick). So IO's make it easier for some builds to manage endurance, but others are left out in the cold.
Reducing the recharge on Rest establishes a baseline below which nobody can fall.
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If you really want to experience low level endurance frustrations, try running a Fire/Kin Controller that is not Tech Origin (meaning the ability to slot Yin Talisman Endurance Reduction SOs starting at level 10).
My FIre/Kin is Magic Origin and she has been sitting at 15 for the past couple months. Even with an endurance reduction enhancement in each of her powers, she still runs out of endurance nearly every fight or every other fight.
I'm surprised anyone has ever managed to get a Fire/Kin up high enough to actually be viable without giving up in frustration due to endurance usage.
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Do you run Hot Feet all the time?
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She isn't getting Hot Feet until 26. Here is her build so far:
01 => Transfusion - ACC/HEAL(2)
01 => Char - ACC(1)/HOLD(3)/END-R
02 => Fire Cages - ACC(1)/END-R(2)
04 => Siphon Power - ACC/END-R
06 => Combat Jumping - Karma -KB Protection
08 => Hover - Winter's Gift Slow Resistance
10 => Siphon Speed - ACC(1)/RCH(3)
12 => Flashfire - ACC(1)/RCH(1)
14 => Fly - Flight Speed(2)
Okay. So one attack doesn't have an endurance reduction yet (been a while since I had looked at her build at the time I posted previously). But then again, that one has such a long recharge, endurance reduction is not too big an issue.
Also, with the exception of the accuracies and one flight enhancement, everything is DOs. The Accuracies are Yin SOs and one Flight Speed is an IO. I'm just not sure what else I could do to manage her endurance any more than I already have.
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Not getting hot feet early could very well be your problem. It's the best DPE available at low level and it's radius is quite nice too.
I had the very same problems until I picked up hot feet early.
Flash fire to stun the spawn, Cages to keep them in place, move into Hot Feet range, Char and Ring of Fire on targets missed by Cages, season with vet attacks. A fight done that way uses up about 1/3 of an end bar and I usually don't have to apply cages more than once per spawn.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
Taking Hot Feet any earlier would open up other problems. The earliest it is available is at 8. At that point I need to take Hover (unless I put off Combat Jumping, which I won't since I will not go without immobilize protection for that long.)
If she was a super jumper instead of a flyer, then yeah, I could take Hot Feet earlier.
I would like to give points to Pippy for repeatedly specifying "while soloing" or " as a soloist" or any of the other repeated disclaimers.
But everyone else is ignoring the "form a team" option. Seriously, in my experience, once I get three or four people together and pointed in the right direction, endurance is pretty much not a problem for me. Once in a LONG while , usually when we're fighting things way too tough for us (at level 8, invincible IS too tough, I don't care who you are) we have to rest every once in a while. But usually at that point we're having more trouble with HP than END anyway.
So there's an encouragement to team early on. So there are ways around it OTHER than teaming early on. So I will tend to hold my current position... the 1-22 game is FINE.
While we are bringing up the good old days when we had 10-minute Rest timers... ED came with something like 17% off the BASE cost of all powers- because you couldn't 6-slot stamina any more, they set it up so that "new" 6-slotting worked like "old" 6-slotting, which meant that the sub-20 game because 17% less end-hungry.
When I was a kid, uphill both ways, in the snow, etc.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
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While we are bringing up the good old days when we had 10-minute Rest timers...
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To be fair, they've also made a number of changes to individual powersets, which have almost all been in the direction of reducing endurance costs. Dark Armor for sure, and I want to say SR and maybe a couple others have gotten some love. On top of the across-the-board discount that came with ED.
Hmmm... so... if I were going to disingenuously use this to support my position, I'd probably say that they've been moving in the direction of easier end-management, and that doing what I'm saying here would be further progress in that direction. Or something like that... 
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Taking Hot Feet any earlier would open up other problems. The earliest it is available is at 8. At that point I need to take Hover (unless I put off Combat Jumping, which I won't since I will not go without immobilize protection for that long.)
If she was a super jumper instead of a flyer, then yeah, I could take Hot Feet earlier.
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Well that does bring up another question. If you are hovering why are you even taking hot feet at all? Hot Feet only works when you are on the ground.
Hot Feet - While active, you heat the earth in a large area around yourself. Enemy movement is Slowed as they attempt to flee the immediate area. All foes in the affected area suffer some damage over time. You cannot fly and must be near the ground to use this power.
Paragon wiki - Fire control
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
Just because I have Hover doesn't mean I'm always using it in combat. In fact, I rarely ever hover while fighting on any of my characters. Hover is mostly for more controlled vertical movement, since I tend to overshoot with actual flight.
I think I am going to take a different angle to this one, should anyone care about the opinion of a lurking old vet. First believe me when I say I absolutely mean no disrespect here Pippy, but perhaps it is your attention span. I am sure I like many others could regale you with stories of other long lost games in which downtime was measured in minutes not seconds. And yet more than 15-20 seconds is too long?
Many others have offered lots of ways to mitigate the issue. Some builds are luckier than others when it comes to the blue bar, at varying levels. And while yes newer players don't have that knowledge right out of the gate, isn't learning that part of the point. Not just from both good and bad experiences but also the coming here to get advice, asking their friends in game, or even just the random people they happened to team with. Isn't that also a part of the game?
I know others have voiced the same, that part of this is helpful to teach those who are new. And I agree, but I will concede that I am not looking at this from a pure mechanical standpoint. Part of the issue and part of the game in my thoughts is the psychological effects. I don't imagine there are many players that would not look at a group of Malta, or even Skulls, in a different light if they knew they could just hit the rest button after every single fight.
So I feel its more of a question not of management really but this: What does the change in downtime really mean? Would less downtime really make the game that much better for everyone? Overall I think the devs have said yes at least to the second part, but I think that they do have to draw a line somewhere. With debt being downgraded to the level of a buzzing fly, there really isn't much left other than downtime.
Side note: I have to agree with the brawl thing though. I always thought it silly that its equally draining to light some poor fool aflame from 40 yards away as it is to punch them in the jaw.
I totally agree with the OP point.
The pre-20s end management issue is one of the thing that can make me stay away from leveling new alts, and sometime from the game.
It's not a really clever game design choice either knowing that people who try and discover the game will only see this aspect of CoX (trial accounts stop at level 14).
Some people will say : why do you want to make everything too easy ? That's a point, but I would answer I dont want things to be easy, but I'd prefer them to be smoother in the lower levels, and more challenging in the later. At the moment, paradoxically, it's the opposite.
Note that mostly tankers, scrappers and brutes are concerned by this issue, many people who play controllers or defenders think there's no problem and it's fine.
I like the idea of having improved endurance (and life) regeneration pre level 20, and I like the "no cooldown rest" either.
However I think there's an issue with Stamina and the way it works actually : the "most powerful power in the game" as some people stated, the one you cant skip (or very rarely). I'd like to see stamina slightly reduce in power (maybe cut from one third), and the natural recovery of a character improved so in the end a 3xslotted stamina character would have exactly the same recovery before the change and after (the end game wouldnt be changed). The difference would be :
- better recovery pre 20
- stamina less needed for non melee or non intensive endurance characters. It would be a choice, right now it's most of the time a "no-brainer".
- same recovery with the new stamina 3 slotted as with the old one. Nothing changes for characters already leveled and slotted.
I don't claim to know what the Devs have in mind with respect to endurance and the fitness pool but I will offer an opinion.
It is my opinion, meaning I speak for no one but myself, the reason the Devs created endurance for their game universe is that in the game universe they conceived, heroes or superheroes and their counterparts should not be able to take one swing after another for all eternity. Maybe they feel it is logical that even the most powerful superhero/supervillain can become physically exhausted.
Now this you may not agree with. It may cause you to enjoy the game less pre-Stamina. It may cause you to cancel your account. Sorry but that seems to be fine with the Devs and it is most certainly fine with me.
To those who feel the fitness pool is manditory I'll say this: if your character concept is one of a person who's extremely active, constantly firing off one powerful attack after another.....why would your character never have had to work on being at the best physical condition he/she can possibly attain?
So your character is Magic origin. Well in most roleplaying settings Magic spells are something that must be learned and perfected over time by any caster. Most magicians cannot cast spells from here to eternity because the process of casting a spell is not without some sort of effort, be that physically or mentally.
Think of endurance and stamina this way: Stamina means your character has learned a technique that makes using his fire blasts less taxing as opposed to another fire blaster who has yet to learn a similar technique.
I don't have any problems with endurance management pre-Stamina. You have to understand the pre and post Stamina existence of any character involves different tactics. Pre-Stamina means slotting your power for accuracy and endurance reduction. It means carrying nothing but endurance inspirations.
In closing the pre-Stamina grind for me isn't such a big deal. At times it may get frustrating but I know it won't be like that forever. Once my character reaches level 20 he will have learned better control over his "powers" that allow him to use them more efficiently.
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The pre-20s end management issue is one of the thing that can make me stay away from leveling new alts, and sometime from the game.
It's not a really clever game design choice either knowing that people who try and discover the game will only see this aspect of CoX (trial accounts stop at level 14).
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The only reason you think there's anything wrong with pre-20 is because you're used to post-20. Newcomers have no preconceptions about how the game should work and won't know any different until they get to SOs and Stamina. Pre-20 is perfectly viable and not nearly as difficult as folks make it out to be, otherwise nobody would ever even get to 20.
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However I think there's an issue with Stamina and the way it works actually : the "most powerful power in the game" as some people stated, the one you cant skip (or very rarely).
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It's perfectly skippable. It's just the end management option that requires the least amount of effort.
De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
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The pre-20s end management issue is one of the thing that can make me stay away from leveling new alts, and sometime from the game.
It's not a really clever game design choice either knowing that people who try and discover the game will only see this aspect of CoX (trial accounts stop at level 14).
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The only reason you think there's anything wrong with pre-20 is because you're used to post-20. Newcomers have no preconceptions about how the game should work and won't know any different until they get to SOs and Stamina. Pre-20 is perfectly viable and not nearly as difficult as folks make it out to be, otherwise nobody would ever even get to 20.
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This is what I believe too. Pre-20 is very simple, goes by very quickly, and only requires that you pace yourself. It's no more grindy than any other part of the game. If anything, it's the least grindy period because you level up so quickly.
This thread was supposed to be about tactics and playstyles to help the pre-20 crowd before they get Stamina, not a debate on endurance or stamina itself. We've had plenty of those. This is finally a thread that is useful to everyone in that nobody can get Stamina before level 20.
Pre-stamina, you have two options to manage endurance.... pacing and slotting. Both should be done in tandem. Damage is usually fine and doesn't need much slotting as pre-20 mobs aren't nearly as resilient as later ones. Make sure you're accurate enough to hit them (and beginner's luck helps in that you get an accuracy boost early on that dissipates and is gone by level 20, so you can gradually work on accuracy), and add in some DO endurance reductions here and there when you hit level 12. Pace yourself properly and endurance shouldn't be a problem.
Look at it like this, if you use up 1/3 of your endurance bar per spawn, that endurance is back in 20 seconds. You don't need to wait a full 20 seconds though, you can pause for five or six seconds to get somesome of the endurance back, then jump into the next spawn. After three or four spawns, you'll probably need to rest for at least health reasons.
Some archetypes do have it harder. For example, a blaster has only his attacks. All of his endurance is used to cause damage. A tanker does less damage though (meaning he has to attack more and use more endurance) and he also has to run shields. Defenders have their defensive powers, but if soloing still need to attack. So yes, some archetypes have it more difficult. But pre-20, don't worry as much about to-hit debuffing or adding defense or resistance, spend some slots on endurance reduction.
Arc ID#30821, A Clean Break
The only problem with defeating the Tsoo is that an hour later, you want to defeat them again!
"Life is just better boosted!" -- LadyMage
"I'm a big believer in Personal Force Field on a blaster. ... It's your happy place." -- Fulmens
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The only reason you think there's anything wrong with pre-20 is because you're used to post-20. Newcomers have no preconceptions about how the game should work and won't know any different until they get to SOs and Stamina.
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Let me rephrase this: the only reason I think there's anything wrong with pre-20 is because I've found out how much better it is after 20.
You can live perfectly well on peanut butter sandwiches. (And I have, although mixing it up with bologne or ramen noodles on occasion...) You might even think peanut butter sandwiches are perfectly good. But if you get the chance to eat a really good steak, you suddenly realize what you've been missing all that time.
I'm not saying that steak is required -- clearly there are other options, like lobster or a really good lamb roast. I'm not saying everyone should get steak at level 1. And I'm sure not saying that everyone should get steak for free. I'm just saying, maybe upgrade from PB&J to, say, meatloaf. Then, when you finally do get to go out for a real meal, it's less likely to ruin your appetite if you have to go back to the pre-20 food for a bit.
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When I was a kid, uphill both ways, in the snow, etc.
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Yeah, this is probably why I'm so dismissive of the whole thing.
I remember the "good old days", and what we have now is like an all expense paid vacation to Candyland in comparison.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
Seems like most of the people who don't like the idea are voicing some variant of "I'm ok with it, so you should be too." Yes you can "pace yourself" at the lower levels. But is it fun? Let me ask you this, after you get your end usage under control, be it through Stamina, slotting, or whatever, do you continue to pace yourself? If so and that's fun for you, fine. I'm guessing most people don't.
Pacing at the lower levels means either standing around during a battle not firing an attack when you have one recharged, or pausing or moving more slowly than necessary to get to the next spawn. The alternative to this approach would be to move at full speed, but pause as necessary between battles to regain health and/or endurance. If the first approach works for you and you enjoy it, great. If it's not fun for me and I can't enjoy it, I'm supposed to suck it up and learn to have fun your way? If rest recharged faster I could enjoy myself the way I prefer, and you could keep doing what it is you enjoy. I see no one being harmed.
Since pacing myself just doesn't work for me, when rest isn't recharged and I'm low on end, it's time to go AFK. There really is no other option for me. Pacing myself is boring for me. Trying to do that would make the lower levels a horrible grind for me. That other people can enjoy it is great. I can't.
I'm not asking for free Stamina or anything like that. I just want an option that will allow me to enjoy the lower levels without requiring constant AFKs to regain end. That's not fun either. When I log on I want to play, not play in short bursts with frequent breaks to do chores while I regain end.
Endurance problems at the lower levels are why it takes any new toons bloody ages to get to 20 for me. They tend to take off like a rocket after that.
I'm used to the way it is but I honestly can't think of any purpose at all served by limiting the use of rest. I think it's recharge is an artifact of some of the floundering, clumsy design of time sinking early in the game's history, like the "run all over the city for 20 minutes between missions at level 5" legacy contacts almost no vet will touch any more in favor of sewer teams, the MA, or, IMO much worse, PL'ing every toon they make to at least 20.
They've given us many many tools to reduce or bypass most of that mess from temp travel powers, vet attacks, radio missions, etc., since there are a million and one more ways for us to spend time in the game now that are actually fun instead of artificial make work. I think rest's recharge is an artifact of obsolete thinking.
Taking the biggest END destroyer I've ever played- a Spine/Dark scrapper- as an example:
At level 10 I had Dark Embrace and Death Shroud going. That's a lot of END, true, and I threw in Spine Burst when I could.
But at level 22 I had Dark Embrace, Death Shroud, Quills, and Obsidian Shield, with Spine Burst and Dark Regeneration as my "you have too much END" buttons.
The reasoning behind having Stamina, at least in my head, is that you have a lot more ways to burn END in the upper game, and you need something to help you get it back.
More AOE, more toggles, more end consumption.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
I agree with some of this, at low levels Enhancements, etc don't help much and for the most part no one has access to powers to offset the increased END burn rate (if 22+ your power uses 10 END with a 33% reduction vs at level 2 it uses 10 END with an 8% reduction). This is complicated by lack of Stamina and reduced damage (no SOs for you) for a 1, 2, 3 punch to the gut.
Typically until around level 14 I don't even turn Defenses on unless I am forced to because they are just unmaintainable in most cases. This allows you to put all your END into attacking. Also I rely heavily on Nemesis Staff/Wand and Sands of Mu. These powers do a TON of damage at low levels much more than you can do with any of your abilities.
FYI slotting attacks with END reduction doesn't work any better than slotting it with Damage unless you are missing a lot. Doing X% more damage or using X% less END leaves you in same place more or less. Sometimes with damage you will have overkill sometimes with END Reduc you would just barely miss a kill the have to attack 1-2 more times to get a hit. It evens out. The reason it works at higher levels is that you can max out one or both of them.
My suggestion if they wanted to do something is to have a Temporary ability you get at level 1-5 either automatically or via a mission that gives you an END boost for say 60 seconds on say a 90 second timer with no Refresh increases. Then have the power drop at level 20 or after X hours but the later has the ability to be abused.
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You can't please everyone, so lets concentrate on me.
Is "The Power whose name can not be mentioned" some kind of bizarre mystical force where simply mentioning it forces all who read it to engage in debate as to its merits? Considering the purpose of the thread was to discuss the pre-20 levels, a debate on a power you can't get until 20 is horribly off-topic.
And seriously, what is it with the "Fun" trump card? Anytime anyone wants to enforce their argument about why certain things should be done certain ways, they pull out the Fun card and go "it's simply not fun that way". If we add up all these Fun cards, we'll find the game only becomes "fun" when everyone starts out at level 50 at full power and never have to engage in any kind of challenge or be forced to think or use strategy. "If I have to actually strategize or pace myself or in any way think, then that's simply not fun!"
Arc ID#30821, A Clean Break
The only problem with defeating the Tsoo is that an hour later, you want to defeat them again!
"Life is just better boosted!" -- LadyMage
"I'm a big believer in Personal Force Field on a blaster. ... It's your happy place." -- Fulmens
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Is "The Power whose name can not be mentioned" some kind of bizarre mystical force where simply mentioning it forces all who read it to engage in debate as to its merits? Considering the purpose of the thread was to discuss the pre-20 levels, a debate on a power you can't get until 20 is horribly off-topic.
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Good point. The viability of slotting choices/IO-sets/playstyle as means for pre-20 end management and the merits or demerits of reducing the recharge on rest would seem to me to be the most relevant to the thread. Or at least to what I originally intended the thread to be. (The other 3 choices are probably harder to balance and wouldn't really accomplish anything that reducing the recharge on rest couldn't, so I'm just as happy that those have fallen by the wayside.)
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And seriously, what is it with the "Fun" trump card? Anytime anyone wants to enforce their argument about why certain things should be done certain ways, they pull out the Fun card and go "it's simply not fun that way". If we add up all these Fun cards, we'll find the game only becomes "fun" when everyone starts out at level 50 at full power and never have to engage in any kind of challenge or be forced to think or use strategy. "If I have to actually strategize or pace myself or in any way think, then that's simply not fun!"
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Look, reducing the recharge on Rest doesn't enforce my idea of fun on anyone else. It's the pro-status-quo faction that is trying to enforce its idea of fun by preventing rest from being up when I'd like to use it. There's nothing keeping you from waiting as long as you want to use rest, there's nothing that's stopping you from, well, not using it.
As far as the "slow pace = challenge" straw man, I've already discussed that, and don't want to belabor the point too much. Suffice it to say that the faster pace in the mid-to-late-game in no way diminishes the necessity for strategery or planning, and in no way diminishes the overall challenge. I consider the "you just don't want the game to be on easy mode" argument to be extraordinarily ill-posed; in fact it's really more of a baseless assertion than an argument. Unless, of course, you could defend the proposition that tedium implies difficulty.
Has anyone got an actual argument for a high recharge on rest?
I introduced the damage slotting in my variant. Still not sure if you are teaming or not. I put it together as I would for solo hazard spawn levelling. Time and again I've found pulling Siphon Power out of my cast cycle did more for end management than anything else but YMMV.
Even with a plan to 50, I would use the free respec and make a plan only to 24, then respec off of that one into your 50 plan.
If you are solo missioning, it's a different build. I would then slot Fire Cages pre-24 only for accuracy and immoblize to establish group containment, and I would add Ring of Fire primary slotted for damage (Acc/End(2)/Dmg(3)) because of its 4 sec recharge with Char slotted for Acc/Hold.