Let's talk about pre-20 endurance management.
By
AprilShade,
Posted on: 2009-04-18 16:05 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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You're just reinforcing the argument that the system is flawed as it currently exists. At level 1 the game ought to play like 22.
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Fascinating. o.0
I find that I am able to defeat foes much faster at level 1 than I can at level 25. Generally, 2 hits will take down any minion at level 1. 1 shot from the Vet ranged attacks. At 25, 1 shot from the Vet attacks will take half, maybe more, of their health and leave the rest to me.
I am also able to run (with sprint on) from mob to mob to mob to mob to mob to mob to mob, with out having to rest, at level 1. That is with most of the powersets from all of the ATs. Yes, even the Tanks can do so, although a little slower.
Seems to me that I'm using less End per mob at level 1 than I am at 25. Of course, I may be "doing it wrong".
There I was between a rock and a hard place. Then I thought, "What am I doing on this side of the rock?"
No, the first 10 levels or so are easier than ever thanks to "Beginner's Luck". Now you can mostly ignore Acc enhancement in the early levels and either slot damage or endurance. Even with TOs, 3-4 in a power will make a noticeable difference. I prefer damage first. The faster they are dead, the less time/insps I spend putting myself back together after a fight. Even before Stamina, endurance still comes back faster than health.
But by 10, I can already feel things slowing down. Mob hitpoints are scaling up. Beginner's Luck is fading, and enhancements aren't doing much more than they were at 1. DOs help, of course, but it still becomes a chore until Stamina and SOs. I generally find levels 10-22 the least fun of anything in the game.
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End isn't that big a deal if a) you slot some end red in your attack chain and toggles, and b) you don't try to play like you're already level 22.
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That's exactly the point.
You're just reinforcing the argument that the system is flawed as it currently exists. At level 1 the game ought to play like 22. The game doesn't even start to become fun until after 22. Downtime is bad. Downtime is boring. Forcing downtime on the players is not good design.
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That's really just an opinion. All games I've played have had some sort of downtime. All of them. Every. Single. One. By your definition, all of those games had bad design.
The thing is that games need to have the "bad" things that you can overcome. For instance, if you died and were able to just click a button and have full health with no penalties, there'd be no feeling of challenge. It'd be like if you had a god mode and couldn't be hurt. Dying is bad, but lack of dying would be boring and not challenging.
Downtime for endurance recovery is not a good thing, but having it gives you something to aspire to through slotting and choosing powers and endurance-saving strategies. Because of this, I don't believe the game should play the same at level 1 as it does at level 22. What would the point of progressing be? I want my character to feel stronger as he gets higher, not just have a few more power choices.
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If the end redux were actually effective it might be a different story, but until you reach SOs, you might as well not even bother with enhancements; the difference they make is negligible.
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I agree with this. TO endurance reductions are just about worthless. DOs are somewhat effective. SOs are when you can really make a difference. Though I think using IOs from sets is the best way to do it.
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Eliminating TOs and DOs entirely and starting with SOs at level 1, as has been proposed by others, would go a long way towards fixing the problem, but it's still not sufficient because there simply aren't enough slots available to a pre-22 character to make a significant difference. Something like a universal reduction in end costs to every power in the game, or something easier, like a universal boost inherent regen and recovery, is needed in addition to that.
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The thing is that endurance reduction is so tightly woven into the mechanics of the game, universal changes would be excessively disruptive as everything would have to be adjusted across all of the various levels the player could be. Hearing the devs talk in the past about endurance management, I've gotten the impression that they really wish they did it differently, but accept the fact that it's such a rewrite of the game mechanics, it's best to just live with it and address it in specific areas.
Arc ID#30821, A Clean Break
The only problem with defeating the Tsoo is that an hour later, you want to defeat them again!
"Life is just better boosted!" -- LadyMage
"I'm a big believer in Personal Force Field on a blaster. ... It's your happy place." -- Fulmens
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You're just reinforcing the argument that the system is flawed as it currently exists. At level 1 the game ought to play like 22.
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It's important to understand that the above is an opinion, and not a fact.
While I'm not a fan of being weak and slow, it's not an opinion I agree with. I beleive we should start weak and grow stronger. I absolutely do not believe we should start the game at level 1 as strong as we are at level 22.
Do I think there's no room for change? I wouldn't say that. I could agree with the notion that we don't have to be as weak and slow at level 1 as we are. But everyone's degree of tolerance for how we do function at level 1 is different, and your particular lack of tolerance for it is not a hard-and-fast proof that the system is "flawed". It just means you really dislike it.
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I did not say "as strong as". I said "plays like". Big difference.
The game is set up so it is physically impossible (or programmatically impossible if you prefer) for a level 1 to be as strong as a level 22. However you could easily make a level 1 PLAY MORE LIKE a level 22, and that would only be an improvement.
"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty."
"Nothing is unchangeable but the inherent and unalienable rights of man."
- Thomas Jefferson
Holy cow.... I can't recall the last time I have seen so many assumptions or so many words put in my mouth.
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The game doesn't even start to become fun until after 22.
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I disagree. I often find the post-22 game less fun. The slowest levelling I've had on my higher level characters has come at points when they are trouncing just about everything they meet.
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If the end redux were actually effective it might be a different story, but until you reach SOs, you might as well not even bother with enhancements; the difference they make is negligible.
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Do you solo much?
The reason I ask is that I solo a lot, and if my TOs or DOs go red I will notice. On a team... not so much, if it's a reasonably competent team, but then a lot of carelessness can go unnoticed in a team.
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I solo almost exclusively, and am an excellent player when on a team (since I have been playing for five years with a few extended breaks).
Fun isn't about slow leveling, it's about action. The more constant the action, the more fun. I find it very strange that you would equate fun with fast leveling.
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Eliminating TOs and DOs entirely and starting with SOs at level 1, as has been proposed by others, would go a long way towards fixing the problem, but it's still not sufficient because there simply aren't enough slots available to a pre-22 character to make a significant difference. Something like a universal reduction in end costs to every power in the game, or something easier, like a universal boost inherent regen and recovery, is needed in addition to that.
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Are you seriously proposing that the upper two powers of the Fitness pool should become an inherent? Why not make the Tier 9 an inherent as well? What's the difference?
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Oy. Where did I say that the Fitness pool should become inherent? Where?
Reading incomprehension+straw man argument=epic fail
I am not proposing that. I merely said one of the simplest solutions would be to increase the inherent regen and recovery rate. Nothing about movement or jumping speed, nor did I imply it should be a boost up to the level of Health and Stamina. *sigh*
Try to present actual arguments if you don't agree, rather than just attack opposing positions, mkay?
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Downtime is bad. Downtime is boring. Forcing downtime on the players is not good design.
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Handing everything to the players on a plate isn't good design either.
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Another straw man... I was going to refute it but it's so patently ridiculous on its face that I don't really need to bother. Except for this...
... Where did I say anything about "everything"?
"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty."
"Nothing is unchangeable but the inherent and unalienable rights of man."
- Thomas Jefferson
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You're just reinforcing the argument that the system is flawed as it currently exists. At level 1 the game ought to play like 22.
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Fascinating. o.0
I find that I am able to defeat foes much faster at level 1 than I can at level 25. Generally, 2 hits will take down any minion at level 1. 1 shot from the Vet ranged attacks. At 25, 1 shot from the Vet attacks will take half, maybe more, of their health and leave the rest to me.
I am also able to run (with sprint on) from mob to mob to mob to mob to mob to mob to mob, with out having to rest, at level 1. That is with most of the powersets from all of the ATs. Yes, even the Tanks can do so, although a little slower.
Seems to me that I'm using less End per mob at level 1 than I am at 25. Of course, I may be "doing it wrong".
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All of what you say is true, except for the running with sprint on from mob to mob to mob. I have yet to see a powerset that can make it through an entire mission without Rest at those levels. In fact, many (I would posit most) powersets have to Rest after fighting ONE SPAWN, two at the most. Try doing it without the Vet weapons to one-shot one of them first, remember that not everybody has them and we can't rely on them as an equalizer.
Your end comes back comes back far slower than at high levels, and I would doubt you are using less end per mob as well, taking into account all the EndRedux you probably have slotted by that time. I do not have hard numbers on that however, but functionally, you're going to hit Rest a lot in the early levels, and most likely never once you get to 32.
"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty."
"Nothing is unchangeable but the inherent and unalienable rights of man."
- Thomas Jefferson
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No, the first 10 levels or so are easier than ever thanks to "Beginner's Luck". Now you can mostly ignore Acc enhancement in the early levels and either slot damage or endurance. Even with TOs, 3-4 in a power will make a noticeable difference. I prefer damage first. The faster they are dead, the less time/insps I spend putting myself back together after a fight. Even before Stamina, endurance still comes back faster than health.
But by 10, I can already feel things slowing down. Mob hitpoints are scaling up. Beginner's Luck is fading, and enhancements aren't doing much more than they were at 1. DOs help, of course, but it still becomes a chore until Stamina and SOs. I generally find levels 10-22 the least fun of anything in the game.
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This is my experience as well. Very correct.
"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty."
"Nothing is unchangeable but the inherent and unalienable rights of man."
- Thomas Jefferson
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End isn't that big a deal if a) you slot some end red in your attack chain and toggles, and b) you don't try to play like you're already level 22.
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That's exactly the point.
You're just reinforcing the argument that the system is flawed as it currently exists. At level 1 the game ought to play like 22. The game doesn't even start to become fun until after 22. Downtime is bad. Downtime is boring. Forcing downtime on the players is not good design.
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That's really just an opinion. All games I've played have had some sort of downtime. All of them. Every. Single. One. By your definition, all of those games had bad design.
The thing is that games need to have the "bad" things that you can overcome. For instance, if you died and were able to just click a button and have full health with no penalties, there'd be no feeling of challenge. It'd be like if you had a god mode and couldn't be hurt. Dying is bad, but lack of dying would be boring and not challenging.
Downtime for endurance recovery is not a good thing, but having it gives you something to aspire to through slotting and choosing powers and endurance-saving strategies. Because of this, I don't believe the game should play the same at level 1 as it does at level 22. What would the point of progressing be? I want my character to feel stronger as he gets higher, not just have a few more power choices.
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Let me ask you... do you truly, honestly not feel any more powerful at 50 than you did at 32? At 22?
Is there seriously so little to look forward to, at level 1 no less, that you have to cripple the player just so he can heave a sigh of relief at 25?
If you admit that it's bad, why not fix it?
The thing about the downtime in later levels is that it is much more malleable to the player's choice. Does he wish to mow through a mission nonstop (and if he's a Brute or a Dom, he'd better, because the game mechanics themselves demand it)? He can. The downtime comes either from making bad decisions, or because the player wishes to take a break. This is the key disparity between the level brackets. At level 1, or 10, the player has to take downtime not because he wishes to, but because the game mechanics give him no choice.
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If the end redux were actually effective it might be a different story, but until you reach SOs, you might as well not even bother with enhancements; the difference they make is negligible.
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I agree with this. TO endurance reductions are just about worthless. DOs are somewhat effective. SOs are when you can really make a difference. Though I think using IOs from sets is the best way to do it.
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Eliminating TOs and DOs entirely and starting with SOs at level 1, as has been proposed by others, would go a long way towards fixing the problem, but it's still not sufficient because there simply aren't enough slots available to a pre-22 character to make a significant difference. Something like a universal reduction in end costs to every power in the game, or something easier, like a universal boost inherent regen and recovery, is needed in addition to that.
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The thing is that endurance reduction is so tightly woven into the mechanics of the game, universal changes would be excessively disruptive as everything would have to be adjusted across all of the various levels the player could be. Hearing the devs talk in the past about endurance management, I've gotten the impression that they really wish they did it differently, but accept the fact that it's such a rewrite of the game mechanics, it's best to just live with it and address it in specific areas.
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I agree with everything else you've said here, although I don't think the problem is as insurmountable as you seem to.
"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty."
"Nothing is unchangeable but the inherent and unalienable rights of man."
- Thomas Jefferson
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Okay, another idea I've been kicking around, which may end up with its own thread at some point. This would be separate from any other possible adjustments like changing the recharge on rest.
One of the problems (as I see it) is the binary nature of endurance. Either you have endurance and can do anything you want with no problem, or you don't have endurance and you're helpless: no attacks, no defense, no nothin' until your endurance comes back. (With attacks, this just slows your attack rate. Defense is more problematic, as your toggles all drop.)
My suggestion would be to make it possible to execute powers -- and keep toggles running -- regardless of whether or not you're out of endurance. However, if you're below some value -- I'm thinking 5 or 10 -- you would be in a fatigued state, and all your powers would be reduced in effectiveness by some significant amount -- here I'm thinking a 50% reduction in effectiveness. So, a 10-second hold would become a 5-second hold, a 200-point attack would only do 100 points of damage, Mag-10 mez protection would only give 5 points of protection, etc.
Alternatively, it might be easier to implement to make Fatigued into a status effect, involving large debuffs to movement speed, damage, control durations, etc. I think the other way would be preferable, but I have no idea how easy it'd be to implement.
This would eliminate the complete helplessness that comes with running out of endurance, and is consistent with other MMOs. Thematically, it makes sense -- if you go until you're exhausted, you can still run, just slower. You can still punch someone, just not as hard. There's still a substantial penalty for not managing your endurance, but it introduces more choice into the matter -- do I keep fighting even though I'm really tired and not going at full capacity? Or do I regroup until I can hit harder again. And it would eliminate that gosh-awful, "You Suck!" "Out-of-Power" thing, which I really, really hate.
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I love this suggestion. I think this, combined with SOs dropping at every level, could be the big answer we're looking for.
"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty."
"Nothing is unchangeable but the inherent and unalienable rights of man."
- Thomas Jefferson
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Fun isn't about slow leveling, it's about action.
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In your opinion. Personally I spend enough time in the higher levels running through hordes of unthreatening enemies that I find the slower, more cautious pace of the low level game quite refreshing.
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Eliminating TOs and DOs entirely and starting with SOs at level 1, as has been proposed by others, would go a long way towards fixing the problem, but it's still not sufficient because there simply aren't enough slots available to a pre-22 character to make a significant difference. Something like a universal reduction in end costs to every power in the game, or something easier, like a universal boost inherent regen and recovery, is needed in addition to that.
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Are you seriously proposing that the upper two powers of the Fitness pool should become an inherent? Why not make the Tier 9 an inherent as well? What's the difference?
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Oy. Where did I say that the Fitness pool should become inherent? Where?
Reading incomprehension+straw man argument=epic fail
I am not proposing that. I merely said one of the simplest solutions would be to increase the inherent regen and recovery rate. Nothing about movement or jumping speed, nor did I imply it should be a boost up to the level of Health and Stamina. *sigh*
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Alright, then we'll call them Health Jr and Stamina Jr. If they were significantly lower than the two pool powers would they actually have that much of an impact?
Also, I said nothing about movement or jumping speed. I added some bold to my original comment to draw that to your attention, so please don't make remarks about my 'reading incomprehension' when you're demonstrating that you didn't read what I said.
I've noticed that most of the suggestions about making the low level game easier and/or faster come from vets of several years. Did you ever think that maybe it's not down to the mechanics of the game that you don't enjoy the low levels so much, but rather that you've been playing it for a very long time, and have, presumably, ran through those stages so often that you've exhausted your interest in them?
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Fun isn't about slow leveling, it's about action.
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In your opinion. Personally I spend enough time in the higher levels running through hordes of unthreatening enemies that I find the slower, more cautious pace of the low level game quite refreshing.
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Eliminating TOs and DOs entirely and starting with SOs at level 1, as has been proposed by others, would go a long way towards fixing the problem, but it's still not sufficient because there simply aren't enough slots available to a pre-22 character to make a significant difference. Something like a universal reduction in end costs to every power in the game, or something easier, like a universal boost inherent regen and recovery, is needed in addition to that.
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Are you seriously proposing that the upper two powers of the Fitness pool should become an inherent? Why not make the Tier 9 an inherent as well? What's the difference?
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Oy. Where did I say that the Fitness pool should become inherent? Where?
Reading incomprehension+straw man argument=epic fail
I am not proposing that. I merely said one of the simplest solutions would be to increase the inherent regen and recovery rate. Nothing about movement or jumping speed, nor did I imply it should be a boost up to the level of Health and Stamina. *sigh*
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Alright, then we'll call them Health Jr and Stamina Jr. If they were significantly lower than the two pool powers would they actually have that much of an impact?
Also, I said nothing about movement or jumping speed. I added some bold to my original comment to draw that to your attention, so please don't make remarks about my 'reading incomprehension' when you're demonstrating that you didn't read what I said.
I've noticed that most of the suggestions about making the low level game easier and/or faster come from vets of several years. Did you ever think that maybe it's not down to the mechanics of the game that you don't enjoy the low levels so much, but rather that you've been playing it for a very long time, and have, presumably, ran through those stages so often that you've exhausted your interest in them?
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If that were the case, why wouldn't we be tired of running through all the states after 25 repeatedly? Or breaking out the level 50s, where there's literally nothing to do besides what you've already done before?
Maybe it really is the game design that's the problem. If the late game can keep our interest, the early game can too. It doesn't. That's a problem.
"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty."
"Nothing is unchangeable but the inherent and unalienable rights of man."
- Thomas Jefferson
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If that were the case, why wouldn't we be tired of running through all the states after 25 repeatedly? Or breaking out the level 50s, where there's literally nothing to do besides what you've already done before?
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That's a fair question. I don't have enough high level characters to be really able to comment on the replay value of the post-25 game, except to say that the levelling speed may be a factor - meaning that if I roll a new alt then I'll go through AP or Mercy in a single night, but unless I'm really going fast it takes longer to do the later zones, so you're less likely to revisit the same stuff as quickly. Just a theory.
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Maybe it really is the game design that's the problem. If the late game can keep our interest, the early game can too. It doesn't. That's a problem.
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I don't disagree that the early game could use some work - red is too linear, blue is too bitty (go here, now go here, now go back there etc) I just don't think that making low level characters more powerful is the answer.
Oddly enough the character of mine who currently has the most end issues is my lvl 35 scrapper, who I respec'd last night and is now running 5 toggles. Combining that with a non stop attack chain and she runs through End in a manner that makes my lowbies look like godmode.
And she does have Stamina 
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End isn't that big a deal if a) you slot some end red in your attack chain and toggles, and b) you don't try to play like you're already level 22.
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That's exactly the point.
You're just reinforcing the argument that the system is flawed as it currently exists. At level 1 the game ought to play like 22. The game doesn't even start to become fun until after 22. Downtime is bad. Downtime is boring. Forcing downtime on the players is not good design.
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That's really just an opinion. All games I've played have had some sort of downtime. All of them. Every. Single. One. By your definition, all of those games had bad design.
The thing is that games need to have the "bad" things that you can overcome. For instance, if you died and were able to just click a button and have full health with no penalties, there'd be no feeling of challenge. It'd be like if you had a god mode and couldn't be hurt. Dying is bad, but lack of dying would be boring and not challenging.
Downtime for endurance recovery is not a good thing, but having it gives you something to aspire to through slotting and choosing powers and endurance-saving strategies. Because of this, I don't believe the game should play the same at level 1 as it does at level 22. What would the point of progressing be? I want my character to feel stronger as he gets higher, not just have a few more power choices.
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Let me ask you... do you truly, honestly not feel any more powerful at 50 than you did at 32? At 22?
Is there seriously so little to look forward to, at level 1 no less, that you have to cripple the player just so he can heave a sigh of relief at 25?
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I do feel stronger as the game progresses. I don't just have more attacks, I can attack longer without getting tired, I move faster, my powers recharge faster. That's part of the joy of MMORPGs that I like.
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If you admit that it's bad, why not fix it?
The thing about the downtime in later levels is that it is much more malleable to the player's choice. Does he wish to mow through a mission nonstop (and if he's a Brute or a Dom, he'd better, because the game mechanics themselves demand it)? He can. The downtime comes either from making bad decisions, or because the player wishes to take a break. This is the key disparity between the level brackets. At level 1, or 10, the player has to take downtime not because he wishes to, but because the game mechanics give him no choice.
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If the end redux were actually effective it might be a different story, but until you reach SOs, you might as well not even bother with enhancements; the difference they make is negligible.
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I agree with this. TO endurance reductions are just about worthless. DOs are somewhat effective. SOs are when you can really make a difference. Though I think using IOs from sets is the best way to do it.
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Eliminating TOs and DOs entirely and starting with SOs at level 1, as has been proposed by others, would go a long way towards fixing the problem, but it's still not sufficient because there simply aren't enough slots available to a pre-22 character to make a significant difference. Something like a universal reduction in end costs to every power in the game, or something easier, like a universal boost inherent regen and recovery, is needed in addition to that.
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The thing is that endurance reduction is so tightly woven into the mechanics of the game, universal changes would be excessively disruptive as everything would have to be adjusted across all of the various levels the player could be. Hearing the devs talk in the past about endurance management, I've gotten the impression that they really wish they did it differently, but accept the fact that it's such a rewrite of the game mechanics, it's best to just live with it and address it in specific areas.
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I agree with everything else you've said here, although I don't think the problem is as insurmountable as you seem to.
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Well, it's not that the problem isn't insurmountable, it's that to execute it properly would require major overhauling of the endurance system, and that type of work may not be acceptable to the devs. Over time, I've learned that it's not just a queston of whether something can be done, it's a question of if it's worth the dev's time to do it, and you can convince them of that.
I don't think the early game is as crippling as you imply it is. I think there's room for improvement, but (with the exception of a couple archetypes/powersets) not as bad as some people say. Listening to them, they want the equivalent of six-slotted Stamina as an inherent from the start because otherwise "it's just not fun". I don't want it quite the way it is, but I do want my character to feel like a slightly-better-than-normal person at first, and then gradually build up to a superhero powerhouse.
I say get rid of the timer on Rest, letting us use it whenever we want. The fact it takes seemingly forever to activate is punishment enough. I also think we should get some kind of endurance discount at level one, it should stay unchanged until around level 14, then dissipate by the time you hit 24. I don't like doing that because I don't like the idea of having a buff that disappears, meaning you get weaker over time, but some sets do have some problems until they get Stamina and access to SOs or SO-level IOs. 
Arc ID#30821, A Clean Break
The only problem with defeating the Tsoo is that an hour later, you want to defeat them again!
"Life is just better boosted!" -- LadyMage
"I'm a big believer in Personal Force Field on a blaster. ... It's your happy place." -- Fulmens
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Your end comes back comes back far slower than at high levels, and I would doubt you are using less end per mob as well, taking into account all the EndRedux you probably have slotted by that time. I do not have hard numbers on that however, but functionally, you're going to hit Rest a lot in the early levels, and most likely never once you get to 32.
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Actually, on many of my characters, the Endurance recovers at the same speed regardless of their level. I don't take Stamina on the vast majority of my characters. Now, what were you saying about making assumptions?
Let's see. 1 minion at level 1 defeated with 2 hits, 3 max. Endurance usage would be somewhere along the lines of 15 (rough estimation, I could go find the exact numbers if you're too lazy to find them yourself.) 1 minion at level 25 takes around 4 or 5 hits. Endurance usage would be somewhere along the lines of...30 (again, a rough estimate.) Takinginto account End Redux, (if I have any slotted) the adjusted usage would be maybe 20 Endurance per minion. Seems like I'm using more Endurance per mob at the higher levels because I'm having to attack more to defeat them. Its really simple math.
And yes, I am able to fight several mobs in succession while having Sprint on at the low levels. Because I defeat them so fast and use little Endurance in the process. I never said that I ran missions at the low levels. I don't start running mission until I reach level 5 and start on the scanner mission in KR (or the paper missions in PO). Up to that point, I'm sprinting from mob to mob in the streets.
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Maybe it really is the game design that's the problem. If the late game can keep our interest, the early game can too. It doesn't. That's a problem.
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That is your opinion. Please, don't speak for me. You don't do it well enough.
I quite enjoy the game at all levels. Otherwise, I wouldn't have 70+ alts and only 3 50s in my 4.7 years of playing.
There I was between a rock and a hard place. Then I thought, "What am I doing on this side of the rock?"
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Maybe it really is the game design that's the problem. If the late game can keep our interest, the early game can too. It doesn't. That's a problem.
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That is your opinion. Please, don't speak for me. You don't do it well enough.
I quite enjoy the game at all levels. Otherwise, I wouldn't have 70+ alts and only 3 50s in my 4.7 years of playing.
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Where did I say I was speaking for you? Where does "our" mean "you"?
Maybe you enjoy being weak and slow, but the majority of players don't. You are the only player I've talked to or heard mention this subject who has ever said that the low game is enjoyable on its own, much less more enjoyable than the higher levels.
And maybe, just maybe, the fact you don't take the opportunities available to mitigate that endurance usage at higher levels could be contributing to the fact that you find higher levels slower. Well, that's your own fault. But don't saddle the rest of the players with your poor choices. Your view of the game is not normal (i.e., shared by the majority).
"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty."
"Nothing is unchangeable but the inherent and unalienable rights of man."
- Thomas Jefferson
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Well, it's not that the problem isn't insurmountable, it's that to execute it properly would require major overhauling of the endurance system, and that type of work may not be acceptable to the devs.
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I'd be curious to see what you thought of my suggestion for an endurance-system overhaul a few posts back. On its face, it doesn't seem like what I'm proposing would be a huge project, but Standard Code Rant, etc.
You are pretty much an outlier as a data Point Twisted. Yes I'm sure it's possible to do. I would be willing to bet that less than 5% of the total CoX population does so and it's not my experience in the pre-22 game.
If they were data mining your data point would most likely be discarded as an outlier.
Congrats on being able to do so but that is not the norm.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
<QR>
Sloooow Doooown. Match the speed the NPCs use powers, you almost never run out of end, this only really works well for ATs with Armour Sets though. Tag Team/Leap Frog with a friend, let you team mate get into one mob then when they are out of end you hop in and vice versa. Hit and Run with High Damage Low survival ATs. Pull, a lot, like all the time, seriously.
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Maybe you enjoy being weak and slow, but the majority of players don't. You are the only player I've talked to or heard mention this subject who has ever said that the low game is enjoyable on its own, much less more enjoyable than the higher levels.
And maybe, just maybe, the fact you don't take the opportunities available to mitigate that endurance usage at higher levels could be contributing to the fact that you find higher levels slower. Well, that's your own fault. But don't saddle the rest of the players with your poor choices. Your view of the game is not normal (i.e., shared by the majority).
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I don't play weak and slow. I can keep up in a team of 8 very well, thank you for asking. In fact, while I'm keeping up, my Endurance bar is rarely ever at full, even when the fights start. Yet, I still contribute nicely to the team's efforts and don't rest very often.
Then again, I may be "doing it wrong".
There I was between a rock and a hard place. Then I thought, "What am I doing on this side of the rock?"
Kitten said:
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You are the only player I've talked to or heard mention this subject who has ever said that the low game is enjoyable on its own, much less more enjoyable than the higher levels.
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The very low game (1-10, say) is a lot of fun for me- maybe because I'm barely there for any length of time. The scaling of mobs and such means that these things work:
Level 1- you can 1-shot a guy in Outbreak with Hack.
Level 8- you can 1-shot ten guys in Kings Row with Frost Breath
You ding five times in your first hour of play. You're running through the streets hitting everything you see. It's very Calvin-esque.
There is still an awkward hitch around level 16-21 for me, but that's not really a big deal.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
Twisted_Toon,
There is no right or wrong. However, if you're not capable of fighting non-stop with an attack/buff/debuff/control animating every moment that a enemy is within range, then you're not contributing to the team effort as much as I would want you to.
OTOH, I've been told before that the pace I run at is "excessive."
Be well, people of CoH.
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Well, it's not that the problem isn't insurmountable, it's that to execute it properly would require major overhauling of the endurance system, and that type of work may not be acceptable to the devs.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'd be curious to see what you thought of my suggestion for an endurance-system overhaul a few posts back. On its face, it doesn't seem like what I'm proposing would be a huge project, but Standard Code Rant, etc.
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It's interesting and has quite a bit of appeal to it. I don't think I heard that suggestion before, and I do like it. Not being intimately familiar with the code in the game engine, it does seem like it'd be easier to implement than overhauling every power. It makes running out of endurance not crippling, but still something very undesirable, maintaining a good portion of the value of endurance buffs.
The only thing I can think of that would be a major consideration is the effect it would have on quickly the servers can process attacks. When it comes to implementing something, it's more than just how much time is needed to code it. I can't remember what mechanic they were talking about recently, but one of the devs said that while they liked the idea of a implementing a suggested change in a certain way, the calculations done by the server for every attack would increase. It's things like that that sometimes prevent certain changes from going in. As an example, there's a run speed cap. The cap is very close to the limit that the servers can process the character's movement. So while increasing the run speed cap is VERY simple, the servers wouldn't be able to process and supply information fast enough to the client, making rubberbanding prevalent.
The change you recommended has a lot of merit. I'd be interested in hearing what the devs thought about that, and if it would be feasible to code and execute.
Arc ID#30821, A Clean Break
The only problem with defeating the Tsoo is that an hour later, you want to defeat them again!
"Life is just better boosted!" -- LadyMage
"I'm a big believer in Personal Force Field on a blaster. ... It's your happy place." -- Fulmens
Okay, as bad as I feel about starting another endurance thread with this one still on the front page, I might go ahead and put this idea in its own thread. I think that's pretty legit.
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Twisted_Toon,
There is no right or wrong. However, if you're not capable of fighting non-stop with an attack/buff/debuff/control animating every moment that a enemy is within range, then you're not contributing to the team effort as much as I would want you to.
OTOH, I've been told before that the pace I run at is "excessive."
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That is where the "problem" is. not with Stamina or Endurance, but with the players' play style, perception and standards. Not everyone "has" to play at warp 9 every second they are in the game. Unless, of course, they play with you BillZ. 
There I was between a rock and a hard place. Then I thought, "What am I doing on this side of the rock?"
Okay, another idea I've been kicking around, which may end up with its own thread at some point. This would be separate from any other possible adjustments like changing the recharge on rest.
One of the problems (as I see it) is the binary nature of endurance. Either you have endurance and can do anything you want with no problem, or you don't have endurance and you're helpless: no attacks, no defense, no nothin' until your endurance comes back. (With attacks, this just slows your attack rate. Defense is more problematic, as your toggles all drop.)
My suggestion would be to make it possible to execute powers -- and keep toggles running -- regardless of whether or not you're out of endurance. However, if you're below some value -- I'm thinking 5 or 10 -- you would be in a fatigued state, and all your powers would be reduced in effectiveness by some significant amount -- here I'm thinking a 50% reduction in effectiveness. So, a 10-second hold would become a 5-second hold, a 200-point attack would only do 100 points of damage, Mag-10 mez protection would only give 5 points of protection, etc.
Alternatively, it might be easier to implement to make Fatigued into a status effect, involving large debuffs to movement speed, damage, control durations, etc. I think the other way would be preferable, but I have no idea how easy it'd be to implement.
This would eliminate the complete helplessness that comes with running out of endurance, and is consistent with other MMOs. Thematically, it makes sense -- if you go until you're exhausted, you can still run, just slower. You can still punch someone, just not as hard. There's still a substantial penalty for not managing your endurance, but it introduces more choice into the matter -- do I keep fighting even though I'm really tired and not going at full capacity? Or do I regroup until I can hit harder again. And it would eliminate that gosh-awful, "You Suck!" "Out-of-Power" thing, which I really, really hate.