Let's talk about pre-20 endurance management.
By
AprilShade,
Posted on: 2009-04-18 16:05 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Has anyone got an actual argument for a high recharge on rest?
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Dont know how sound an arguement this is, but it's the first thing that jumped to mind: Rest has a high recharge so as players do not learn to rely upon it.
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That's a fair argument. The counterpoint is that Rest comes with sufficient other penalties -- long activation time, defensive vulnerability, elimination of any offensive output -- that a high recharge is unnecessary.
It's also a question as to why relying on Rest (given its negatives) would be worse than relying on Stamina or endrx slotting (given the absence of any negatives other than opportunity costs). As I've said before, you're always better off not resting except in those situations where not resting makes a trip to the hospital likely.
I can't think of a situation where rest would prevent a trip to the hospital any way, unless you were forced to attack the next spawn in 30 seconds ready or not. If you have aggro of any kind it's either impossible (interupt) or suicidal (high def can prevent interupt but then you have -10000 def and resist).
The scenario I was basically thinking about is when you've just finished a spawn and are thinking of going on to the next spawn with less than full health/endo. If you have enough to make it through the next fight, you're always better off not resting.
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It's the pro-status-quo faction that is trying to enforce its idea of fun by preventing rest from being up when I'd like to use it. There's nothing keeping you from waiting as long as you want to use rest, there's nothing that's stopping you from, well, not using it.
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There is one thing stopping me from not using it. It would probably be stupid not to. Telling me I can choose to play stupid and not use rest when it is recharged is not very compelling.
If I can use rest after every fight (even if I only need to use it after every three or four), I can fight all out; use all my attacks without any thought towards which ones cost more endurance; toss that AoE out at one target rather than wait for a single target attack to recharge. I can slot all damage/recharge enhancements and probably skip a lot of other end management powers and/or forgo other end management techniques. I can just take a knee between fights whenever I want.
Currently, I have to think about how to manage the blue (and green) bar (even at higher levels). I try to squeak out one more fight before I need to rest, pop a blue, hit Consume, etc. I look at a blue bar that is 15% full and I have to figure out how that is going to carry me through the next 4 minions and 1 Lt. or if teamed I need to think about how to best use that last bit of end before I run out. If I can just hit rest without worry about its recharge, it would probably be stupid to risk running out of blue while a Lt. is at half health and cranky. I currently enjoy managing my end and worrying about trying to stretch it out and trying to push my limits. If rest has no recharge, I have no reason to stretch out my endurance, because I can always take 16 seconds to fill up.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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Has anyone got an actual argument for a high recharge on rest?
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as i already said on page 2 lol
as for making rest not have a recharge though i think that whould be a bit overkill especially in teams where 7 members could cover for you drawing agro from the GM or AV while you rotated so eveyone had full end all the time.
if you want rest to come up faster sacrafice slots to it (hell even slot interupt reduction in it to rest 'n' run without waiting as long for rest to take effect
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Has anyone got an actual argument for a high recharge on rest?
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as i already said on page 2 lol
as for making rest not have a recharge though i think that whould be a bit overkill especially in teams where 7 members could cover for you drawing agro from the GM or AV while you rotated so eveyone had full end all the time.
if you want rest to come up faster sacrafice slots to it (hell even slot interupt reduction in it to rest 'n' run without waiting as long for rest to take effect
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Sorry missed that one, but it's a rare AV fight when anyone needs to rest in my experience, and any team that needed to do that would be far from efficient, much less overpowered. As for and slotting rest, that would be silly; by the time slots have a real effect on anything you have stamina and rarely ever use rest again. We were taking pre 20.
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If I can use rest after every fight (even if I only need to use it after every three or four), I can fight all out; use all my attacks without any thought towards which ones cost more endurance; toss that AoE out at one target rather than wait for a single target attack to recharge. I can slot all damage/recharge enhancements and probably skip a lot of other end management powers and/or forgo other end management techniques. I can just take a knee between fights whenever I want.
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And taking a knee between every fight would add about 20 seconds to each fight. If you're spending, say, a minute on each spawn (and that seems to be a reasonable estimate for the lower levels) then your end-hog playstyle still results in a 33% increase in mission completion time. Not to mention the fact that playing like that would quite possibly cause you to run dry in the middle of a tough fight. While you could use the strategery you just outlined and ignore end management options, it seems pretty clear that you'd be running slower than someone who did use a more endurance-friendly build and/or playstyle.
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If you're spending, say, a minute on each spawn (and that seems to be a reasonable estimate for the lower levels)
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If you spend one minute to kill each spawn, that means even without enhancements, you can use Rest every 3 spawns. Is end management truly so onerous in your experience that you drain your end in one or two fights regularly?
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While you could use the strategery you just outlined and ignore end management options, it seems pretty clear that you'd be running slower than someone who did use a more endurance-friendly build and/or playstyle.
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It is not clear in the least. It might take me an extra 20 seconds to Rest, but it could take the guy using end management tools and equips an extra 20 seconds to fight (stressing their green bar more as well then).
You seem to be talking out of both sides of your mouth. "I want Rest to recharge faster, so I can use it more often, in order to be active more often, but rest recharging faster will actually increase my downtime, so there is no benefit to Rest recharging faster."
Pick a side.
Rest on a fast or zero recharge will increase my speed through missions and thereby my fun and it is a good idea because of that.
Rest on a fast or zero recharge will increase my speed through missions and lessen my need to manage my end bar by killing slower, and I'd rather face that dilemma so I prefer the status quo.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Welcome to this weeks installment of "Pendix-once-listened-to-the-developers-comentary-on-a-game-and-now-thinks-he-is-some-kind-of-game-development-guru Island"
I think, the reason we face the kind of Endurance issues we do in the 1-20 game has a lot to do with the 'learning-curve'. The 1 to 20 period is where new players are first really taught about the game's central mechanics. If they didnt run out of end periodically they wouldn't learn about the importance of 'endurance managment', and wouldnt, later on, look for the (many & varied) tools avaliable to better 'manage end'.
Further to this is the Idea of 'Progression'. The early levels of most RPGs (PnP, Single Player & MMO) have to strike an important balance between 'Suk' & 'Awesome' or 'Suk' & 'Fun'. A low level character has to feel like he both is haveing fun, but could be having more fun if certain things were different, for instance if he were doing more damage, hitting more often, or being better at taking hits, that way he will feel compelled to strive for the higher levels where he will (presumably) have those things. If the game were as 'instantly' as fun as the player could imagine it being, he will likley not feel as compelled to play it will lack any relevant/tanigable reward to complement the 'fun'. Concenquently he will be further likley to be drawn away buy other games (or passtimes) that do induce a compulsion to play.
The very existance of this disscussion is evidence of the game being very successful in inducing in the player a need for certain things, in this case, better 'End Managment'. Feeling that 'End Managment at the low levels sucks' is not only understandable, but INTENDED. It is suppose to make you want to get to a higher level where you have access to many more better & varried 'End Managment' tools.
AND. . . this is why improvements to low level 'End Management' are unlikley.
(I have also more Ideas about the 'Rest-recharging faster' that I may come back to but I feel it's best to stop the Wall-o-Txt now).
Hee hee...
I love the "I don't have a problem with endurance pre-Stamina" posts. To those posters, I would ask: "Why do you take Stamina then?"
I've been playing my 50s so darn much that I haven't had to think about this one for a while. And my last two alts "skipped" to lvl 20. It just happened...I looked up and they were lvl 20! Wow! 
I have no idea why they stopped at lvl 20...hmmm..what could it be?
I've yet to see a logical reason why Rest has any recharge at all. How can you possibly be too tired to rest? Because you were just resting? Sprint has no recharge and it should logically require some effort to run faster. You could make a logical case that Sprint should have a recharge.
You aren't able to do anything while resting....you are more vulnerable....it takes a while to kick in...and you have to wait for it to work. All these things are reasonable and are a great "penalty" for using it.
But a recharge too? That screams "time-sink...just because". Frankly, it sounds like it came from the mind of an infamous former Dev and needs to go the way of the dodo. It's just not logical.
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I would bet that many people take Stamina because they were told to take it when they first started playing, then that became the "way" the game was "supposed" to be played.
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Agreed. I've noticed several recent threads in the specific AT forums where most of the posters take Stamina as a given, even on Willpower and Regen builds.
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Only because they're being constantly told by people like those in this thread that it's mandatory, not because they actually need it. "Oh, stick it out and don't worry. Once you hit 20 it's smooth sailing." seems to be the common refrain whenever anyone asks for help with their Endurance management. It seems to translate into "Oh, don't bother learning how to manage your Endurance early on since you won't have to once you hit 20."
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They are told that because that IS the way the game is played.
Deny it all you want...claim we don't "need" Stamina (true)...that we don't "need" a travel power (true)...that we don't "need" enhancements (true).
You can play the game without all those things. But you won't be playing it the way (almost) everyone else is playing it. This is a fast-paced game...and is in fact proud of that and uses it as a selling point. It doesn't take long to figure out that we play at a quick pace. You can lag behind with "omw to mish" and "resting". No one is going to kick you off the team for that. But you aren't going to have teammates thinking "wow...he/she is a really good player" either.
Because that's just the way we play the game.
You may now console yourself by claiming the playerbase are all "lazy".
Meh. If you move so fast that your Endurance isn't back up by the time you've gotten to, and scouted (or do you just run in blindly and start flailing away?), the next spawn - not to mention any delays caused by chatting (this *is* a social game, after all, and that doesn't just mean teaming!), checking the enchancements, recipes and salvages that dropped in the last spawn (or do you notice every line in the chat box and know what every enchancement and recipe does just by the icon and name?), etc. - perhaps you need to slow down a bit, not to mention stock up on blues (contacts sell them for a reason 
) between missions.
Personally, I've never felt even the slightest urge to use Rest to get back Endurance between fights, saving it instead for the more important job of getting back Health in a timely fashion.
What I normally do is use one slot of enhancement for an end reduction. I do this with any attack, toggle or whatever that seems to be the biggest end drain. That helps the situation until I hit 20 and can take Stamina at which point I simply go back to the store and replace those End Reduction enhancements with damage, heals, defense enhancers.. what ever the power requires.
I also carry a number of Catch a Breaths, Take a Breaths, or Second Winds to help out if the team I am on gets into a long battle and the end drops dramatically. This is possible becaue the SG I belong to (well run actually) has 8 inspiration bin and each now had 100 tier 3 inspirations available so find a good SG that can assist you.. I do love the merit system! 
Depending on the character (AT) and what enemy we may be facing I also turn off certain toggles that drain end. On my WP/DM Tank if I was facing a villain group that was primarily all mellee I would simply shut off the toggle for ranged defenses. Against a group like say Council that combine ranged and mellee both need to stay active of course.
I also avoid using powers I KNOW tend to miss frequently and use a lot of end. I have several Vet reward attacks iincluding Sands of Mu .. does good damage when it hits but misses more often that it actually connects. Since Vet rewards are considered temps and can not be enhanced there is no way to increase the accuracy or lower the end drain so I only use that sparingly .. when I don't have any other power available.
I am a good soloist but enjoy teaming and at those levels finding a good team usually isn't that difficult and speeds the process toward hitting 20 and solving the problem completely. Also on teams while there are more critters to defeat there is also a lot more damage available and I don't need to attack and defeat everything myself so that helps save end as well... usually 
Easiest way I know to resolve the problem.. Sewers to level 6 or 7, Radios in KR to levels 10 or 11, Positron TF followed by Synapse TF. With a good 7 or 8 man team that can get you to level 20 or 21 in a very short amount of time.. Problem sloved LOL
�We�re always the good guys. In D&D, we�re lawful good. In City of Heroes we�re the heroes. In Grand Theft Auto we pay the prostitutes promptly and never hit them with a bat.� � Leonard
�Those women are prostitutes? You said they were raising money for stem cell research!� � Sheldon
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If you spend one minute to kill each spawn, that means even without enhancements, you can use Rest every 3 spawns. Is end management truly so onerous in your experience that you drain your end in one or two fights regularly?
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Depends on powersets, I suppose. My two current lowbie alts are Storm/Sonic and Fire/Dark (scrapper), who don't seem to be particularly easy on the blue bar. Using half a bar in a fight isn't uncommon. I run on Tenacious so I can fight actual bosses, and so if it's one of the big even-con spawns, then using more than half a bar isn't uncommon either. Of course, these fights also take a bit longer.
Also note that if you spend less than a minute per spawn and still rest after every spawn, then the fraction of your time spent resting goes up.
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It is not clear in the least. It might take me an extra 20 seconds to Rest, but it could take the guy using end management tools and equips an extra 20 seconds to fight (stressing their green bar more as well then).
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My experience has been that the most efficient use of slots and powers, long term, is one in which you need to rest as rarely as possible. YMMV, but the opportunity cost to endurance slotting is very low, particularly with IO sets. It's not all that uncommon for a power to have >90% damage, >90% recharge (just from slotting), more than enough acc and still have >60% endrx. So no, I don't believe that ignoring endurance management options in the late game is sufficient to negate the slowdown that comes with having to rest after every fight.
And if it is that way in the lowbie game, I don't necessarily see it being a problem, as long as one style doesn't have a huge advantage over the other. Ideally, there would be some situations where it's advantageous to blow through the endurance bar -- maybe a fight with a dangerous boss -- and others where the slow-but-steady approach is better. That is the case now, I'd just argue that the penalties attached to the high-endurance-use situation are too high.
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You seem to be talking out of both sides of your mouth. "I want Rest to recharge faster, so I can use it more often, in order to be active more often, but rest recharging faster will actually increase my downtime, so there is no benefit to Rest recharging faster."
Pick a side.
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Again with the straw man. Seem to be a lot of those running around this thread. I didn't say rest recharging faster would increase downtime. (Or, using more precise language, that using rest more often would increase my downtime.) I said that excessive use of rest, i.e. using all of your endurance on every single fight without using the endurance management tools that become available as the game progresses, increases downtime.
It seems pretty self-evident that having rest up when you need it will lead to less downtime than having to wait for it to recharge or for your bars to recover naturally. It also seems evident, although maybe less so, that it will minimize downtime if you build your character in such a way that you end up having to rest as rarely as possible, since Rest itself is downtime.
As to overall killing speed, well, it's a lot harder in the heat of battle to say "oh, that fight took 40% longer than it would if..." than it is to say "oh, look, I'm spending a third of my time standing around." So I'd argue that most players are more sensitive to downtime than they are to non-optimized long-term damage output. That may well account for the tendency to use end-heavy powers in situations that don't call for them: "Why am I standing around when I have attacks ready to use? FIREBALL!!!"
JeetKunDo said
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I love the "I don't have a problem with endurance pre-Stamina" posts. To those posters, I would ask: "Why do you take Stamina then?"
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... because I have more AOE's, more toggles, and a full attack chain? Just a thought.
I like Power-that-shall-not-be-named, but I often end up waiting till 22 or 24 to get it. Blues, I can carry; it's a lot harder to carry some sort of substitute for your level 16 or 18 power. Like, oh, Whirling Sword, Integration, Blaze, Invincibility, Siren's Song, Build Up, Force Field Generator, Shadow Fall, Focus, Practiced Brawler... perish the thought that you should want TWO of those more than Stamina.
(Admittedly, since I can let the travel power slip now, I don't do as much "wait till 24 for Stamina" building.)
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
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I didn't say rest recharging faster would increase downtime. (Or, using more precise language, that using rest more often would increase my downtime.) I said that excessive use of rest, i.e. using all of your endurance on every single fight without using the endurance management tools that become available as the game progresses, increases downtime.
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and that it's better to avoid resting unless you need to rest in order to ensure that you'll survive the next fight. The second of these is a matter of mathematically provable fact, and the first strikes me as fairly non-controversial.
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The counterpoint is that Rest comes with sufficient other penalties -- long activation time, defensive vulnerability, elimination of any offensive output -- that a high recharge is unnecessary.
It's also a question as to why relying on Rest (given its negatives) would be worse than relying on Stamina or endrx slotting (given the absence of any negatives other than opportunity costs). As I've said before, you're always better off not resting except in those situations where not resting makes a trip to the hospital likely.
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You keep saying that you are better off not using Rest due to its drawbacks. You also guarantee that a playstyle where Rest is always available and used often is going to take longer to get through a mission than one that does not rely on Rest. You speak of the 20 seconds of Rest used after every fight (and claiming use of Rest after every fight instead of after every two or three is making your position look stronger than it would be in reality) and yet do not write about any potential speed up in play due to not worrying about end management. There is little balance in your statements and thus I find it hard to be convinced by your points.
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It also seems evident, although maybe less so, that it will minimize downtime if you build your character in such a way that you end up having to rest as rarely as possible, since Rest itself is downtime.
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While that may seem true on the surface, I do not think it should be dismissed as true so easily. Spending 20 seconds recovering full health and endurance every one to two minutes may indeed work well enough for most folks to strongly consider using Rest often and lead many people to not worry about needing other end management solutions. I think it should be considered what one can do with a build when you can feel free to let the blue bar go down much quicker than you currently tolerate. More endurance spent over less time almost always translates into more damage produced in less time which might translate into more enemies dead faster which often translates into less health lost which can translate into more difficult challenges being reasonable. It may be true that using Rest more often is a detriment, but I'd prefer to be convinced as opposed to having it dismissed as true.
The following is just a start and is not final proof, in case you thought it was:
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And taking a knee between every fight would add about 20 seconds to each fight. If you're spending, say, a minute on each spawn (and that seems to be a reasonable estimate for the lower levels) then your end-hog playstyle still results in a 33% increase in mission completion time.
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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I love the "I don't have a problem with endurance pre-Stamina" posts. To those posters, I would ask: "Why do you take Stamina then?"
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On the vast majority of my characters, I don't.
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They are told that because that is the way THEYare told to play the game.
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Fixed that sentence for you.
They may play that way, but that doesn't mean that someone without Endurance management powers can not keep up with them. Stamina isn't THAT good.
There I was between a rock and a hard place. Then I thought, "What am I doing on this side of the rock?"
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...
As far as the "slow pace = challenge" straw man, I've already discussed that, and don't want to belabor the point too much. Suffice it to say that the faster pace in the mid-to-late-game in no way diminishes the necessity for strategery or planning, and in no way diminishes the overall challenge. I consider the "you just don't want the game to be on easy mode" argument to be extraordinarily ill-posed; in fact it's really more of a baseless assertion than an argument. Unless, of course, you could defend the proposition that tedium implies difficulty.
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I was merely responding to multiple instances where someone invariably brings up "that's not fun" as if the argument is over as the final trump card has been played. You find the early game tedious. That's OK. Many people don't. It's a very subjective topic. I personally enjoy starting out kind of weak and building up to be a powerhouse. It's why I play MMORPGs. In any case, there's things that could be done that were mentioned here I fully agree with.
Rest, for instance. I personally think it shouldn't even have a timer. If a person wants to rest every 10 seconds, that's fine with me. I also wouldn't mind if the preliminary wait before it kicked in was shortened too.
I also suggested once that we get an endurance discount for the first 20 levels. An overall endurance discount is a buff built into the game (you can see it listed in the Power Attributes window), so I was thinking something along the lines of the Beginner's Luck that we currently have where all players get an accuracy boost that gradually diminishes. Give everyone a good endurance discount that gradually dissipates. This, I'll admit, isn't perfect since the biggest discount occurs when you have the least endurance-hungry powers, but it could help, especially when you exemp down to run an early task force or flashback arc.
Arc ID#30821, A Clean Break
The only problem with defeating the Tsoo is that an hour later, you want to defeat them again!
"Life is just better boosted!" -- LadyMage
"I'm a big believer in Personal Force Field on a blaster. ... It's your happy place." -- Fulmens
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Rest, for instance. I personally think it shouldn't even have a timer. If a person wants to rest every 10 seconds, that's fine with me. I also wouldn't mind if the preliminary wait before it kicked in was shortened too.
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Okay, I'm not sure why I've been arguing with you then. 
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You keep saying that you are better off not using Rest due to its drawbacks. You also guarantee that a playstyle where Rest is always available and used often is going to take longer to get through a mission than one that does not rely on Rest.
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I've said no such thing.
I've said that you're better off not using rest more often than is absolutely necessary. If your health is at some fraction X of its maximum and your endurance is at some fraction Y, then you are better off jumping into the next spawn than you are resting, unless X or Y are low enough that you would not be able to defeat that next spawn before being defeated yourself. (The actual determination of what X and Y are, of course, varies from one build to the next, and is also made a bit fuzzy by the wiles of the RNG.)
I've said that about six times now. It's completely different from saying "you're better off not using Rest at all," which I've never said, and is obviously not a position I take seeing as I'm asking for Rest to made available more often.
As to what I've "guaranteed," I've simply said that a character who's sole means of endurance management is Rest is, because of Rest's inherent downtime and other drawbacks, will take longer to get through a mission than one who also has other means of endurance management. (Actually, what I've said is that such a character will experience more downtime, which is a bit different from saying that he'll complete missions more slowly.)
Neither of these contentions strikes me as particularly controversial, nor are they in any way contradictory. The only reason that you can claim that my argument isn't self-consistent is that you're ascribing to me two contradictory positions, neither of which actually bears more than a passing resemblance to the things I've said.
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Rest, for instance. I personally think it shouldn't even have a timer. If a person wants to rest every 10 seconds, that's fine with me. I also wouldn't mind if the preliminary wait before it kicked in was shortened too.
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Okay, I'm not sure why I've been arguing with you then.
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Maybe because I haven't advocated some of the recommendations people had where they wanted Stamina to be inherent. I'm all for decreasing downtime, but I just like it when I see my character progress from one that's rather weak and clumsy to a wonderful powerhouse.
Arc ID#30821, A Clean Break
The only problem with defeating the Tsoo is that an hour later, you want to defeat them again!
"Life is just better boosted!" -- LadyMage
"I'm a big believer in Personal Force Field on a blaster. ... It's your happy place." -- Fulmens
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Rest, for instance. I personally think it shouldn't even have a timer. If a person wants to rest every 10 seconds, that's fine with me. I also wouldn't mind if the preliminary wait before it kicked in was shortened too.
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Okay, I'm not sure why I've been arguing with you then.
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Maybe because I haven't advocated some of the recommendations people had where they wanted Stamina to be inherent. I'm all for decreasing downtime, but I just like it when I see my character progress from one that's rather weak and clumsy to a wonderful powerhouse.
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Okay, yeah, it sounds like we're pretty much on the same page. I'm not entirely happy with the way endurance management is implemented in general, but inherent Stamina is overkill.
I see character progression from needing to rest every couple of spawns to being able to cut through whole missions without taking a knee as pretty legit.
You know Pippy, I was thinking about this today amidst all of the X spots left for AE farm team broadcasts and it suddenly dawned upon me that the devs HAVE given us unlimited health and endurance just now in I14.
All it costs is a tad of debt (nothing prior to level 10) that is elliminated after killing a mob or 2. Just play in the AE from 1-20. The hospital is right next to the mission entrance no matter what kind of mission you are running.
Just play till you run out of health and end, click the go to hospital button, Poof full bars, and back in the mission without the tedious wait for rest to recharge.
You are back in the mission and right back to the spot you died in taking it back to the baddies usually in less time than it would have taken you to use rest let alone wait for it to recharge.
Wipe out a couple minions, debt is gone, repeat until Stamina.
Problem solved, thanks devs 
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
Actually Rest DOESN'T have a long refresh. Once you get SOs it is almost always up. If you get SOs and Haste is it up practically before you can fire off your next attack.
IMO that is poorly thought out designing Rest to be useful after 22 when you rarely need it anymore.
What everyone seems to be talking about is an unevenness in the game. 1-19 most ATs are driven by END considerations, then at 20 Stamina and 22 SO's eliminate the driving force of the early game.
It should also be pointed out that you level FAST from 1-20 even solo and/or on Heroic. Even with travel times and END issues that experience bar just shoots up. Post 25 unless you increase the difficulty you will be forever leveling at Heroic, until in the 40's you are crying big super tears.
So the increase END availability post 22 ends up leveling the leveling so to speak. The main issue is that it is like playing a different game which is a definite problem for the mad key punch crowd ("Tactics? Never heard of it. Sounds boring.").
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You can't please everyone, so lets concentrate on me.
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Has anyone got an actual argument for a high recharge on rest?
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Dont know how sound an arguement this is, but it's the first thing that jumped to mind: Rest has a high recharge so as players do not learn to rely upon it.