Let's talk about pre-20 endurance management.
By
AprilShade,
Posted on: 2009-04-18 16:05 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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I really don't see a big issue with endurance before stamina.
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Yeah, but lots of other players do.
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Says who? The people on the forum?? I would consider people spending time here all the time pretty "hardcore". Yes, that means you and me are one of them.
Hardcore players tend to want everything in their way. They want stamina-free, 100% hitting rate, or maybe i-WIN button if they can get it.
I consider having a bit of endurance problem and not having much problem a "progress". I create a character that actually "grows". Yes, this means I go from resting often to not resting at all. I buy sets so I rarely rest. I carefully plan my build so I don't rest much. I do that because my character actually GROWS.
I think Beginner's Luck is very sufficient. I don't do missions that are too hard before SOs (so I miss even less). I try to team more (I find teaming between lvl 1-20 much easier for some reasons). I try not to waste attacks when I don't need to (like don't waste your Knockout Blow on a dying enemy or use an AoE to finish off a dying enemy). I am still amazed by how many people leave their Sprint. Sprint costs quite a bit!
I think what you want is Endurance-free right?
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Says who?
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Per Castle, "lots" of characters take Stamina. Exactly what percentage this entails I don't know, but it's safe to assume it's pretty high. Since Stamina obviously doesn't provide any benefit to a character that already has enough endurance, I would consider taking Stamina to be reasonably compelling evidence of endurance issues.
Given that (a) non-Stamina options for endurance management become more powerful post-20 and (b) taking Stamina at 20 requires a substantial investment in character development (3 powers out of 12 total powers available at level 20) I would further contend that taking Stamina at level 20 is a very strong indication of endurance issues pre-20. I don't have hard numbers for you -- I wish I did. But I'm fairly confident that the number of characters that take Stamina (or a comparable power, like Quick Recovery) as soon as it becomes available is not small.
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Hardcore players tend to want everything in their way. They want stamina-free, 100% hitting rate, or maybe i-WIN button if they can get it... I think what you want is Endurance-free right?
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I'm not sure where you're getting this from. Since I've not asked for free Stamina -- in fact I explicitly said that I DON'T want free Stamina -- I can only assume that this straw man is a result of frustration stemming from previous discussions of endurance issues. Be that as it may, it's pretty clear that it's not a fair criticism of anything I've propounded here.
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I consider having a bit of endurance problem and not having much problem a "progress". I create a character that actually "grows". Yes, this means I go from resting often to not resting at all. I buy sets so I rarely rest. I carefully plan my build so I don't rest much. I do that because my character actually GROWS.
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Non sequitur. Designing a game in such a way that character progression is obvious and satisfying does not demand forced down-time in the early game. Also, I'd be perfectly happy to progress from resting often to not needing to rest at all. Unfortunately, its long recharge precludes the possibility of resting often.
Once again, I'll ask how anything you've said shows why reducing the recharge on Rest is a bad idea.
I think that this issue has less to do with new players having trouble learning how to manage their Endurance bar and more about players who are use to having SOs/IOs and Stamina and don't want to have to pay attention to their Endurance bars.
You keep asking for reasons why reducing the timer would be bad, but I haven't seen a good reason why the current system is broken. There is no risk in using Rest unless you do it in the middle of a fight, so the current debuffs are trivial. Your reduced timer idea also does not address the fact that it also is a self heal.
Finally if all else fails and none of the other options given for End Bar management works for you, you can always put more than the default slot into Rest to reduce Recharge time. Afterall Respecs area about as common as Costume tokens these days.
"The only thing to crave is Immortality, and Death is the last rube to cheat."
They trained the Rikti to drop Fire on people, but they won't let them write (Censored) on their spaceships because it is obscene!
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Per Castle, "lots" of characters take Stamina. Exactly what percentage this entails I don't know, but it's safe to assume it's pretty high. Since Stamina obviously doesn't provide any benefit to a character that already has enough endurance, I would consider taking Stamina to be reasonably compelling evidence of endurance issues.
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You're making an assumption from a faulty premise. The reasons for people taking Stamina are not shown in the data-mining of how many people take it.
I would bet that many people take Stamina because they were told to take it when they first started playing, then that became the "way" the game was "supposed" to be played. There are very few character builds that I have that "require" Stamina, and those only because I have a certain play-style with those particular characters.
Sorry to hi-jack this thread...
//Hi-jack
There I was between a rock and a hard place. Then I thought, "What am I doing on this side of the rock?"
Though I like the idea of reduced rest because I run a ton of alts and on those that really feel the end crunch or lack self healing would love it. However, I can propose a couple of arguments against:
1) Rest provides a punitive function in the game, sloppy health and/or endurance management is never "beaten" out of new players and will eventually catch up with them.
2) An easy out for endurance issues early devalues tough decisions on slotting (should I take dmg or recharge or end redux.)
3) If rest recharge were shortened, I'd never get my wife to stop using brawl on every fight.
4) The change would overly favor high damage oriented archetypes, because they can play as fast at a higher level of risk for more reward if they have constant easy out for damage taken and endurance spent.
Example on #4: I've started a fire/mind blaster. He runs about as fast as my claws/wp new character. If he had rest after each encounter, he would open with fireball and firebreath every time and likely raise his notoriety and still move through mobs faster than the claws/wp character.
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I think that this issue has less to do with new players having trouble learning how to manage their Endurance bar and more about players who are use to having SOs/IOs and Stamina and don't want to have to pay attention to their Endurance bars.
You keep asking for reasons why reducing the timer would be bad, but I haven't seen a good reason why the current system is broken. There is no risk in using Rest unless you do it in the middle of a fight, so the current debuffs are trivial. Your reduced timer idea also does not address the fact that it also is a self heal.
Finally if all else fails and none of the other options given for End Bar management works for you, you can always put more than the default slot into Rest to reduce Recharge time. Afterall Respecs area about as common as Costume tokens these days.
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You are arguing toward the fact that we should have to stand around waiting for our hp/end to return at a rather low rate while rest is recharging...
That is rather strange.
Look, here's the deal, give me *one* good reason why standing around for 2 minutes after a fight is better than standing around for 15 seconds after a fight. I can give you a compelling reason for the opposite... it means I can spend more time actually playing the game and less time waiting to play the game.
No
Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo
I think you underestimate our fools, sir.
Why /duel is a bad idea
I understand there may be a certain amount of devil's advocacy in your post. That said, a few thoughts:
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Rest provides a punitive function in the game, sloppy health and/or endurance management is never "beaten" out of new players and will eventually catch up with them.
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Debt does this rather well. Sloppy health management is just as likely to send you to the ER as it is to leave you needing to wait around for Rest to recharge.
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An easy out for endurance issues early devalues tough decisions on slotting (should I take dmg or recharge or end redux.)
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This probably the strongest argument. However, the ubiquity of IO sets seems to indicate that the devs are moving away from tough decisions on slotting, at least for those who can afford to have it all. (Which is pretty much everyone who's willing to wait for it.)
It's also worth mentioning that using Rest, even with instant recharge, imposes a penalty: you can't possibly do any damage when you're resting. And if there's anything around you that might be hostile, you'll probably have a long run back from the ER. (Of course, that's a full health/end heal -- clearly the "Go to Hospital" button needs a longer recharge!)
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If rest recharge were shortened, I'd never get my wife to stop using brawl on every fight.
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I got nothing on this one... 
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The change would overly favor high damage oriented archetypes, because they can play as fast at a higher level of risk for more reward if they have constant easy out for damage taken and endurance spent.
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Your example notwithstanding, in general this isn't true. Low damage ATs have to spend more endurance per point of damage that they inflict, and therefore are more likely to be hurting for endurance than higher-damage ATs.
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I've started a fire/mind blaster. He runs about as fast as my claws/wp new character. If he had rest after each encounter, he would open with fireball and firebreath every time and likely raise his notoriety and still move through mobs faster than the claws/wp character.
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I'm going to assume that your fire/mind plays similarly to my fire/fire. In general, the problem with (fire) blasters isn't kill speed, it's survivability. My AoEs let me throw out orange numbers that are far beyond what my DB/WP was doing at a similar level (with DB and claws being actually pretty similar in damage output). He runs through mobs super quick. He's also way more likely to get debt than my scrapper would be, if I weren't more likely to try stupid stuff on my scrapper.
Actually, I take that back. I try plenty of stupid stuff on my blaster too. Especially if I've been playing my scrapper a lot...
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I would bet that many people take Stamina because they were told to take it when they first started playing, then that became the "way" the game was "supposed" to be played.
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Agreed. I've noticed several recent threads in the specific AT forums where most of the posters take Stamina as a given, even on Willpower and Regen builds.
De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
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I would bet that many people take Stamina because they were told to take it when they first started playing, then that became the "way" the game was "supposed" to be played.
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Agreed. I've noticed several recent threads in the specific AT forums where most of the posters take Stamina as a given, even on Willpower and Regen builds.
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Only because they're being constantly told by people like those in this thread that it's mandatory, not because they actually need it. "Oh, stick it out and don't worry. Once you hit 20 it's smooth sailing." seems to be the common refrain whenever anyone asks for help with their Endurance management. It seems to translate into "Oh, don't bother learning how to manage your Endurance early on since you won't have to once you hit 20."
An endurance discount like Beginner's Luck could be...nice.
Take the example of the brute. Brutes suck without Stamina. Huffing and puffing even with endrdx and crying a little inside as the rage bar putters out.
Stamina is mandatory for a majority of players. Some powersets or ATs don't need it (my claws scrapper doesn't have it, for example, but does have IO Recovery). My WP has stamina, but at 49. But, I run a fairly ridiculous amount of toggles (Leadership, Fighting..giggity) and can run myself dry in extremely long fights. That's mostly just being too lazy to bother Insp combining blues, of course, and me not considering the very last pick you get and very first you lose exemping down to matter THAT much. Could've taken TP other to haul people around the Shadow Shard, I guess. Not that I particularly feel like doing a godawful Dr Q again for a year or two, unless the Merit reward is bumped up to 245 or something. Worst TF with cut and paste mission maps ever.
Castle and Positron pretty much summed up the endurance situation not long ago.
They know that people have endurance issues without Stamina. That includes before 20, and on buids that don't take it.
They know people are annoyed by endurance. How could they not. It's the most complained about mechanic in the game.
But they alllow the problem to exist, because in Castle's words, there's a number of buffs that eliminate the need for Stamina.
In other words, the endurance mechanic exists to "encourage" players to team, much in the way electric cattle prods "encourage" animals to move where you want them to.
So as far as the devs are concerned, Accelerate Metabolism, Speed Boost and Recovery Aura are how we're supposed to manage endurance. The alternative being, wait until 20 and lock yourself into three powers and use a pool choice.
I don't agree with this line of thinking, exactly the opposite. But it's why you likely wont see very much done about player endurance issues. The devs want players to have these issues and to team or pay with reduced build flexibility to have them taken care of.
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I enjoy those early levels, even with the endurance restrictions, because that's what I expect in an MMORPG.... to have a character start out basically as an average person, and then gradually work up to be powerful. To manage endurance, I do a few things....
1) I concentrate on accuracy in attacks. Missing wastes more endurance than anything. Beginner's Luck is helpful, but I still slot up accuracy in powers first, followed by damage. I could slot for endurance, but having more damage also saves endurance too.
2) For toggles on tanks and scrappers, I slot for endurance first. The boost of resistance or defense is negligible for TOs, so endurance makes those sets much much more friendly.
3) Like others have said, use your attacks intelligently. Don't fire off an AoE fireball at a minion that only has a few points of health left. Plan your attacks with endurance usage in mind. I've been on my blaster where I've run low on endurance, so I just kept using Chillblain on a boss or lieutenant. It would root them, damage them, but was easy on endurance and I'd win even when my endurance was empty as I was able to fire it off with every tick on my endurance bar.
4) Pace yourself. It only takes one minute for your endurance to fully replenish if it's empty. Taking just a few seconds to look at the next spawn and size them up, rather than just jumping in and spamming attack buttons, gives you another tick or two of endurance.
5) Coordinate your endurance with your health. That is, your health is going to replenish much much more slowly than your endurance. By pacing yourself and saving Rest for when your health is low, you won't get stuck with low health and having to wait a few minutes for health to come back because you blew the Rest on endurance just a minute earlier.
6) When you get to the teens, start looking at DOs for endurance reduction in heavy powers. Also check out IO sets for frankenslotting. IOs for Acc/Dam may cost a lot, but there are cheaper ones that help too. For example, you have an attack that does defense debuff, look for an IO belonging to the Defense Debuff set that has Acc/End, or End/Rech or any other number of IOs that may apply to that set. I've found that using the IO sets as early as you could really makes a difference on your character.
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"Life is just better boosted!" -- LadyMage
"I'm a big believer in Personal Force Field on a blaster. ... It's your happy place." -- Fulmens
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Take the example of the brute. Brutes suck without Stamina. Huffing and puffing even with endrdx and crying a little inside as the rage bar putters out.
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That's your opinion and opinions are subjective.
My Elec/Elec Brute doesn't suck. Of course that's my opinion and opinions are subjective.
There I was between a rock and a hard place. Then I thought, "What am I doing on this side of the rock?"
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To manage endurance, I do a few things....
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All the following suggestions are excellent, and should be required reading for new players. I'm not a new player, though, and everything you suggest is part of my normal playing style. (Except for early IO-set slotting -- I've not generally had good luck finding low-level IO sets at good prices, but I haven't been looking that hard.)
The reason that I started this thread in the first place is that for a significant number of characters, you can employ all of those strategeries and still suffer from what is, to me, an unacceptable amount of down time due to endurance burn. (As you allude to in number 5, health-related downtime is potentially a factor of 4 larger. That doesn't really affect the argument, except insofar as it provides further support for the idea of reducing the recharge on Rest.) This is especially the case when soloing.
Basically, if I have to sit around doing nothing for more than about 15-20 seconds, I'm going to get bored and start doing something else -- maybe browse the forums, maybe mess around on youtube, who knows? Perhaps my attention span is too short. Using Rest enforces 10-20 seconds of down time due to activation time and then the time letting the bars refill. So the down-time associated with Rest is, as far as I'm concerned, close to the maximum that I find tolerable before my enjoyment starts to wane. As far as I'm concerned, then, the ideal situation would be to go with instant recharge on Rest and be done with it. If you have a longer attention span than I do, or team more, or, for whatever reason, you're okay with the status quo, then you lose nothing by having Rest recharge faster. Those of us that aren't happy with the amount of downtime we experience in the low levels -- and I'm quite sure I'm not the only one with this problem -- would, however, benefit from a faster recharge.
I was wondering when the stamina/endurance debate would arise again.
Doesn't seem to have anything new either.
Oh well, here's for hoping the next one does!
If you really want to experience low level endurance frustrations, try running a Fire/Kin Controller that is not Tech Origin (meaning the ability to slot Yin Talisman Endurance Reduction SOs starting at level 10).
My FIre/Kin is Magic Origin and she has been sitting at 15 for the past couple months. Even with an endurance reduction enhancement in each of her powers, she still runs out of endurance nearly every fight or every other fight.
I'm surprised anyone has ever managed to get a Fire/Kin up high enough to actually be viable without giving up in frustration due to endurance usage.
Inspiration management is also a "skill" in itself. Newbie players probably just carry "greens" when "blues" and "purples" probably matter more than green.
You can rest more or you can carry more blues at the expensive of less red/yellow.
Or you can carry more yellows because you'll be hitting more often against early CoT ghosts.
CoX is already a very fast pace game.
Some characters suffer from "resting" too much? Exactly which sets are you talking about? Radiation?
Like I've said, you need to watch your endurance bar. It's part of the game. Some sets' secondary effect (like Claw) is costing less endurance. And endurance is not that big of a deal once your character grows higher lvl.
And some fights are tougher because you start with less endurance than before (Rest is still recharging). Do you go in or do you wait or do you share blues with teammates? That's all part of the strategy.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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If you really want to experience low level endurance frustrations, try running a Fire/Kin Controller that is not Tech Origin (meaning the ability to slot Yin Talisman Endurance Reduction SOs starting at level 10).
My FIre/Kin is Magic Origin and she has been sitting at 15 for the past couple months. Even with an endurance reduction enhancement in each of her powers, she still runs out of endurance nearly every fight or every other fight.
I'm surprised anyone has ever managed to get a Fire/Kin up high enough to actually be viable without giving up in frustration due to endurance usage.
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Do you run Hot Feet all the time?
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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If you really want to experience low level endurance frustrations, try running a Fire/Kin Controller that is not Tech Origin (meaning the ability to slot Yin Talisman Endurance Reduction SOs starting at level 10).
My FIre/Kin is Magic Origin and she has been sitting at 15 for the past couple months. Even with an endurance reduction enhancement in each of her powers, she still runs out of endurance nearly every fight or every other fight.
I'm surprised anyone has ever managed to get a Fire/Kin up high enough to actually be viable without giving up in frustration due to endurance usage.
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Do you run Hot Feet all the time?
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She isn't getting Hot Feet until 26. Here is her build so far:
01 => Transfusion - ACC/HEAL(2)
01 => Char - ACC(1)/HOLD(3)/END-R
02 => Fire Cages - ACC(1)/END-R(2)
04 => Siphon Power - ACC/END-R
06 => Combat Jumping - Karma -KB Protection
08 => Hover - Winter's Gift Slow Resistance
10 => Siphon Speed - ACC(1)/RCH(3)
12 => Flashfire - ACC(1)/RCH(1)
14 => Fly - Flight Speed(2)
Okay. So one attack doesn't have an endurance reduction yet (been a while since I had looked at her build at the time I posted previously). But then again, that one has such a long recharge, endurance reduction is not too big an issue.
Also, with the exception of the accuracies and one flight enhancement, everything is DOs. The Accuracies are Yin SOs and one Flight Speed is an IO. I'm just not sure what else I could do to manage her endurance any more than I already have.
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CoX is already a very fast pace game.
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It's way faster at 50 than it is at 10.
Heck, for most of my toons, it's considerably faster at 21 than it is at 19. What's wrong with making the low-level game as dynamic as it is at high levels? It's entirely possible to maintain the same pace (i.e. by eliminating pointless downtime) while still providing a sense of character growth. It's not like the game's over when I get stamina and SO-strength endrx slotting.
It's really more like the game's finally started.
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Some characters suffer from "resting" too much? Exactly which sets are you talking about? Radiation?
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I'm not entirely clear what you're saying here. My point was that lowering the recharge on Rest doesn't hurt anybody, and that it's better to avoid resting unless you need to rest in order to ensure that you'll survive the next fight. The second of these is a matter of mathematically provable fact, and the first strikes me as fairly non-controversial.
Also, you pointing out ways to manage your endurance in the early game. I appreciate that, but I don't really need advice on this. I've been playing for close to five years now, and I know how to manage my blue bar at any level as well as it can be managed. My point is simply that, for a lot of builds, particularly if the focus is solo play, the options available for managing endurance in the early game are insufficient to prevent endurance management from being an unpleasant chore, and that the unpleasant nature of this chore could be easily mitigated by very simple steps such as lowering the recharge on rest.
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Here is her build so far:
01 => Transfusion - ACC/HEAL(2)
01 => Char - ACC(1)/HOLD(3)/END-R
02 => Fire Cages - ACC(1)/END-R(2)
04 => Siphon Power - ACC/END-R
06 => Combat Jumping - Karma -KB Protection
08 => Hover - Winter's Gift Slow Resistance
10 => Siphon Speed - ACC(1)/RCH(3)
12 => Flashfire - ACC(1)/RCH(1)
14 => Fly - Flight Speed(2)
...
I'm just not sure what else I could do to manage her endurance any more than I already have.
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Shelve a few powers for now: Siphon power and Flashfire. If you are soloing, adding dmg IOs is going to have a better payoff than other options.
So without removing skills:
01 => Transfusion - ACC(1)
01 => Char - ACC(1)/HOLD(1)/END-R(1)/DMG(3)
02 => Fire Cages - ACC(1)/END-R(2)/DMG(3)
04 => Siphon Power - ACC(1)
06 => Combat Jumping - Karma -KB Protection
08 => Hover - Winter's Gift Slow Resistance
10 => Siphon Speed - ACC(1)/RCH(3)/END(1)
12 => Flashfire - ACC(1)
14 => Fly - Flight Speed(1)
But I'd replace Siphon Power with Hasten and move a RCH from Siphon Speed over to Hasten. Of course it really depends on what role you have for your character (team vs. solo; if team then buff vs. control vs. dmg.) and what environment you like to play (TFs, missions, hazard zones, etc.)
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One accuracy, one Endurance, and one Damage in each of my attacks before I hit 20 pretty much eliminates my endurance problems on anything but the lowest damage of Archetypes. If you are running a Defender or Controller you have to slot your heals, buffs, and debuffs for endurance for a little while. 1 endurance redux for every 2 other enhancements is a good rule of thumb. on defenders and controllers you may have to choose between healing, debuffing, and attacking but that is why you are playing a team oriented AT.
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I take a similar approach. In fact, I just bought DO for my Plant/Thorns last night (I was level 14 going around with expired TOs...oops!) and that's what I'd put in most of my attacks - a blue, a red and a yellow. If I happened to have a 4th slot, a gray. EndRdx and judicious use of AoE powers makes things pretty manageable.
Suggestions:
Super Packs Done Right
Influence Sink: IO Level Mod/Recrafting
Random Merit Rolls: Scale cost by Toon Level
Replacing Siphon Power with Hasten is counterproductive from an endurance standpoint -- each attack will do less dpe, and you'll be attacking more often. The major culprit here is probably Fire Cages -- from the damage slotting, it looks like you're using it as one of your damage dealers. It's a real end hog, and does pretty piddly damage. You'd actually probably be better off dropping it in favor of Hot Feet. Or better yet, a high dpe pool attack. (Flurry is a surprisingly good choice here -- it's got a really long activation time, so it's lousy dps, but it's the best dpe of any pool attack. At least it was when last I checked.)
I think you are right about Fire Cages. From what I can recall, I slotted it because I felt I needed at least one attack for damage (not realizing at the time just how little damage it was doing). I may go ahead and do a respec to reallocate 2 of those slots (and still put in a third END-R in Fire Cages). I don't want to get rid of it completely though, because of Flashfire. AOE Immobilize+AOE Disorient=AOE Hold more or less. 
As for Siphon Power, I am definitely not dropping that for Hasten (which comes at 28). I learned my lesson about that on my Mind/Kin. That is her big damage boosting power until 38.
Next real attack she gets will be Air Superiority at 30. Until then, she will just have to make do with what she currently has (plus the Hammer/Slammer/Blammer temp power trio and her Sands of Mu) for her attacks when soloing.
*** EDIT ***
FWIW, here is her current plan (the numbers beside each power are simply the levels at which they get their slots...That second slot in Hover and the Second one in Speed Boost are for additional KB protection. May change that bit of the plan though.)
Name: Twinkle Bat - Justice
Level: 50
Archetype: Controller
Primary: Fire Control
Secondary: Kinetics
+---------------------------------------------
01 => Transfusion ==> 1/3/9/17/19
01 => Char ==> 1/3/5/7/9
02 => Fire Cages ==> 2/5/7/23
04 => Siphon Power ==> 4/15
06 => Combat Jumping ==> 6
08 => Hover ==> 8/40
10 => Siphon Speed ==> 10/11/11/13/19
12 => Flashfire ==> 12/13/17/27/34
14 => Fly ==> 14/15/23
16 => Hurdle ==> 16
18 => Health ==> 18
20 => Stamina ==> 20/21/21
22 => Speed Boost ==> 22/37
24 => Cinders ==> 24/25/25/31/31
26 => Hot Feet ==> 26/27/37/37/40
28 => Hasten ==> 28/29/29
30 => Air Superiority ==> 30/31
32 => Fire Imps ==> 32/33/33/33/34/34
35 => Transference ==> 35/36/36//36
38 => Fulcrum Shift ==> 38/39/39/39/40
41 => Fire Ball ==> 41/42/42/42/43
44 => Fire Blast ==> 44/45/45/45/46/46
47 => Fire Shield ==> 47/48/48/48/50/50
49 => Increase Density ==> 49
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Anyone else remember when Rest had a 20 minute recharge? I think I had it like 4 slotted back on my first character when I started playing in I4.
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At release it was a 10 minute recharge. Not quite as bad as a 20 minute, but still pretty bad.
Nethergoat's "Back in my day we had to run through the snow uphill both ways to our missions and by God we were grateful for it" notwithstanding, I'd still be pretty interested in hearing any argument for why lowering the recharge on Rest would be bad. The only argument I've heard is that there are enough alternatives to using Rest that lowering the recharge is unnecessary, which is a completely different situation.
Not to mention that said alternatives are in general less viable at lower levels, which is precisely the situation I'm whining about.