Discussion: 57 & 60 Month Veteran Rewards!
By
AARGH_NA,
Posted on: 2009-01-21 17:33 in News, Events and Announcement Discussion
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being a 51 month vet, i wouldn't care if people baught the rewards, the only ones worth having are...
sands of mu / ghost slaying axe
blackwand / nam staff
Port team
base teleport
and the respec rewards
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And that is why "just sell them!" isn't an effective war cry. Allowing people to cherry-pick the rewards they want at will means, inevitably, most people will only ever want to spring for 3-4 items at most. I don't know if I'd call that an effective program to encourage player longevity and to spark revenue.
Even then, "just sell them!" doesn't accomplish the major benefit of having players, and that's having people in the zones. A new player who joins today buys the new Mac version, let's suppose could walk into Atlas Park and find people to team with.
It isn't about having the money. It's about having a population.
I wouldn't object if they had some way of letting players select which of the several costume pieces they wanted, every 3 months. Every 12 months, you could select which power you wanted. I think that would accomplish the goal. "Buy the Nemesis staff for $2.99 on the first day" is not something I think could contribute much to server population.
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I'd be willing to bet that Vet Rewards are MUCH more effective in keeping long time players here, than keeping relative noobs here. Just sayin'
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I definitely agree with you.
Out of people who have been playing a year or less, There tend to be a percentage of people who would never play ANY game very long term, and therefore more likely to quit.
Also, relatively newer players have less 'invested' in the game, and therefore, more likely to quit even if there is a shiny in the near future.
But 2 to 5 year players?
They have more 'invested' in the game, and are proven payers and players. These tendencies make shiny carrots held out in front of them even more effective. . . . to keep them playing longer, and definitely not to take interruptive breaks from the game.
I am pretty sure that it makes noticeable difference to the Game coffers all across the board.
But I definitely see your point that it probably influence longer term players more.
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being a 51 month vet, i wouldn't care if people baught the rewards, the only ones worth having are...
sands of mu / ghost slaying axe
blackwand / nam staff
Port team
base teleport
and the respec rewards
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And that is why "just sell them!" isn't an effective war cry. Allowing people to cherry-pick the rewards they want at will means, inevitably, most people will only ever want to spring for 3-4 items at most. I don't know if I'd call that an effective program to encourage player longevity and to spark revenue....
[/ QUOTE ] I agree with all of that, and some people say buy them in order.
That doesn't work to keep the population up either.
People can buy a pile, and then have no carrot a few months down the road to make them stay and play.
And it doesn't do anything to keep people from taking interruptive breaks and shut down their accounts for a few months either. If you can just buy the VRs you missed when you come back.. No incentive to keep staying and playing there either.
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Frankly, I don't see that giving players the option to buy veteran rewards -- in packs, through micropayments, whatever -- would be a bad thing, either. Don't sell the badges; vets still get those as a matter of pride. But the rest of it? If someone wants to shell out $9.95 for a Boxer Booster rather than wait, literally, years to earn it through the Vet Reward system, hell, let 'em. If they stay in the game, they'll have only spent more money in the long run.
Seems like it'd be the best solution, honestly. The vets still get all those rewards for their loyalty, plus badges that let them show off to everyone exactly how long they've been in this game; players who want wings or boxing gloves or powers NOW can put up the cash and pay for the privilege, and it's a bit of extra cash in NCSoft's pocket.
And as for the vet rewards being an 'incentive' that can't be taken away 'cause then people wouldn't have a reason to keep playing: really? I don't shell out fifteen bucks a month JUST so I can get the vet rewards. I shell out fifteen bucks a month because I enjoy logging in, spending time with my friends and bashing heads. If the day comes where City of Heroes is no longer fun for me, I don't much care if the 72-month reward is a solid gold statue of my hero for my SG's base or a power that turns Circle of Thorns mages into sheep, I'm just plain going to stop playing. I'm sure there are people shelling out fifteen bucks a month 'cause they 'gotta have 'em all,' but vet rewards aren't the only carrot keeping most players in the game, and they're not a very effective carrot at that.
Full-Time Virtue Resident and Amazon Princess
Primaries: Infinite Morning (50), Mageshadow (47), Grammaire (33) Victorygirl (32), Themiscyra (30)
Do not go gently into that good night - save Paragon City!
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[u]60 Months [u]
City Traveler Badge: Hit the ground running
this badge unlocks access to the following Power Pools at level 6, so players can access Tier 1, 2, or 3 powers early on.
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Is it wrong that I regret my post-secondary education, solely because it ate up funds that would have otherwise been spent on this game - and having this reward being less than 20 months away?
"My inner mind has become a reality-cracking overgod. He torments me! Help!"
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Actually, my argument has nothing whatsoever to do with wanting the rewards 'RIGHT NOW'. It has everything to do with looking realistically at how much they're going to keep stretching the rewards vs. how probable it will be that it would even be possible for a player to EVER see them, no matter how patient they are.
Once you hit the imaginary line dividing the halfway point of an MMO's lifespan (whatever this may be, obviously nobody can see the future) than any future veteran rewards added beyond that point become impossible to achieve, ever by new players. The longer beyond that point you go, the fewer and fewer players, no matter how much they try, will be able to access that content, and beyond a point it becomes a waste of resources to keep developing them as they'll be designing them for an ever-permanently decreasing segment of the population.
Again, I HAVE the 54 month badge already on my characters. Wanting the rewards 'right now' is a total non-issue for me. I'm fine with having players have to wait 5 years for the rewards, that's fine. My entire point is that there comes a point, somewhere, where the vet reward system becomes silly, because you have an ever-growing number of veterans who will never, ever, see many of the rewards coded into it.
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That's what I was going to say more or less. I just hit 50-something on my main account too....so I'm certainly not bitter about "never getting the good stuff". (Hee hee...I just realized I don't pay that much attention to it.)
But as you say, at what point does this become a waste of time for the Devs? There must be a line somewhere there when they are working hard to come up with something interesting for .01% of the population. So where is that line? Now? A year from now?
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Any chance for the 72 month Vet Reward we can get a pattern that says:
"I played this game for six years and all I got was this lousy shirt"?
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(thumbs up)
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I would argue (and this is a slight derail) that any player who's already been playing (and paying) long enough to get the 60 month badge would be doing so with or without veteran rewards. Implying that people only remain loyal to the game because they are rewarded with veteran powers seems intellectually dishonest to me.
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People do not "only remain loyal to the game because they are rewarded with veteran powers", vet rewards are PART of why people stick around, and that's good enough.
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How many people are we talking about here?
I'm dying to meet a person that sticks around to get vet rewards!
Vet reward fan: "(sigh) This game is kinda blah....but I'm hanging around for that costume piece with my next vet reward. And I get a respec after that!"
Put yourself in thier position. They have to offer things as Vet rewards that are fair and balanced. Meanwhile nomatter what it is, you have people on the forums screaming that it's overpowered and gamebreaking. AND at the same time people saying it's lame and weak and they aren't even trying.
What would you do?
I don't consider the vet rewards to be a carrot, the majority of them are too meh to be a good enticement, but it is nice to be getting something for sticking around, but the rewards themselves are not why people stick around. I like the game and have been playing since it launched and will likely still be playing it for an unforseen amount of time even if the rewards never existed.
As for people wanting to buy the reward items, I have to disagree with selling them. You want the cyborg stuff then buy the pack, you want the valk stuff then buy the pack, you want the wedding stuff then buy the pack, you want the vet stuff then just play the game and it'll come to you in time like it does for everybody else.
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What would you do?
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I would devise a token scheme and make the reward pool large enough so no one can have all the rewards.
I think that would have the effect of still rewarding/encouraging Beta vets (like me) but wouldn't put off new players.
This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
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But I think we are a long way from being in a game where the devs should start giving up and planning for the end.
I wouldn't want to be in a game where the devs planned based on possible game death,
so I won't be a part of encouraging them to gain that attitude.
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Not a bad point at all.
You could word that many ways of course. The way you word it sounds a lot different than "Being realistic in their planning".
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Massive, epic FAIL. Something so profoundly, massively balance altering as being able to skip a travel prereq being doled out as a veteran reward? I thought these were supposed to be perks and conveniences, not ways for vets to ignore the power rules the rest of us have to follow.
Seriously, this is an absolutely insane change to give to just a small segment of the population. Given that this reward kicks in at 5 years, it's frankly unlikely that most will *ever* get to this reward during the lifetime of the game.
And, yes, I'm mostly annoyed that I doubt I'll ever get to use this. I have about 8 billion builds that would benefit immensely from being able to drop the travel prereq. But, seriously, this is by far the biggest thing they've ever given out in a vet reward, and frankly I think it's way *too* big to give out as a vet reward. I obviously can't say for sure how I'd react if I *was* in line to get this - I know I'd be quite interested in the options it would open up - but I'd like to think that I'd find this a bit iffy even then. Allowing just a small portion of the population to ignore such a fundamental rule seems more than a bit unfair.
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Based on your reg date, I'm assuming that you've been playing the game for a couple of years. I can assure you that the proposed Vet reward, while it may seem like a lot to you, is different to people whose perspective is much different from yours because we've been playing since 2004. Of the original 70 people in my once proud SG from way back then, I'm the only one left in the game.
These vet rewards are to reward those that have stuck it out this long and have resisted the urge to drop the game and do something else. And believe, that urge gets stronger and stronger and stronger all the time. It will be the same for you if and when you get there.
As to whether or not they are overpowered, I don't think so. Kheldians get travel powers at level 1 and it is now possible to buy temp travel powers at level one for ALL your new alts. The purpose of SOME of these vet rewards powers, I believe, is to make the game go a bit faster in the early levels for people who've been around the block several times. Whe you are rolling your nth alt, it's nice to know you can get through the early levels just a bit faster. Is it an advantage? Yes, but not a large one and mostly only in the early levels. It evens out toward the higher levels.
50 Fire/Dev | 50 AR/Dev | 50 Ninjas/FF MM | 50 Bots/Dark | 50 Kin/Rad |
44 EM/Regen | 39 BS/Regen | 38 Kin/Elec | 27 Thugs/Pain
"Rare is the man so noble that he will always give thanks for that which is freely given." -Jock_Tamson
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Put yourself in thier position. They have to offer things as Vet rewards that are fair and balanced. Meanwhile nomatter what it is, you have people on the forums screaming that it's overpowered and gamebreaking. AND at the same time people saying it's lame and weak and they aren't even trying.
What would you do?
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Hee hee...if both sides are complaining...that's probably a sign it's really fair.
(Like how if only Conservatives or Liberals complain about a news network....there is probably a problem.)
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These vet rewards are to reward those that have stuck it out this long and have resisted the urge to drop the game and do something else. And believe, that urge gets stronger and stronger and stronger all the time. It will be the same for you if and when you get there.
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Oh please. If the urge to stop playing the game is that strong, then go ahead and stop playing the game. It's a game; it's purpose is to be fun. I don't think the Veteran's Rewards are well suited to the task of convincing people who don't enjoy playing the game to keep paying for it, because they're all things that only matter if you play the game.
Not to mention that if the VRs did make the game more fun to play, denying them to people who are otherwise not enjoying the game would be foolish: you'd be forcing them to wait years to get something that, if they had it, would encourage them to play for years. That could not possibly end well.
IMHO, the Nemesis Staff/Blackwand reward is already too close to that area: I was amazed at how much better charatcers are with a one of those, even past their low levels. I'd rather not see any more such rewards handed out, especially since the lag time to obtain them increases with every new reward.
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As to whether or not they are overpowered, I don't think so. Kheldians get travel powers at level 1 and it is now possible to buy temp travel powers at level one for ALL your new alts. The purpose of SOME of these vet rewards powers, I believe, is to make the game go a bit faster in the early levels for people who've been around the block several times. Whe you are rolling your nth alt, it's nice to know you can get through the early levels just a bit faster. Is it an advantage? Yes, but not a large one and mostly only in the early levels. It evens out toward the higher levels.
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Kheldians have their own set of issues. Though you do raise a point. I assume the 60 month reward would not specially unlock the Fly or Teleport powers for Kheldians, but it would be nice if a dev could confirm that. Castle? BABs? Anyone?
As for speeding up the game, I agree that's a good reward for Vets to get. But I think that a) 5 years to earn such a perk is a bit excessive, and b) the reward, as currently structured, does a lot more than just let you pick up your travel power early. If you couldn't skip the prerequisite for the travel power, this reward would be a lot less of a problem.
-D
Darkonne: Pinnacle's (unofficially) mighty Dark Miasma/Radiation Blast enthusiast!
Be sure to check out this mighty Arc:
#161865 - Aeon's Nemesis
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Any chance for the 72 month Vet Reward we can get a pattern that says:
"I played this game for six years and all I got was this lousy shirt"?
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(thumbs up)
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I want that in RL, preferably with the City of Heroes and City of Villains logos...even better, one of each and a 'Good vs. Evil' edition 
Anyway...admittedly I'm a 48-monther, on my main account anyway, but my second account is less than a year old, so maybe my opinion counts...I wouldn't object to letting the rewards be a purchasable option, but not the badges themselves, if that's possible (if having the badge is what unlocks the veteran rewards, so much for that idea). The badges I think should still be veteran only, not really a reason to stay in the game (if somebody is staying in the game over badges, or even the veteran rewards themselves, I really have to think that it's a sad state of affairs), just a nice little perk.
Personally with temp travel powers and such I still don't think this is THAT big a deal anyway, but whatever. For all we know, there might be more temp powers released soon for the PVP zones and arenas which would further level the field there--truthfully, I say why not, give the PVP crowd a chance to fill up their slots with attacks and defenses while just buying their travel powers, no need to actually have 'em on their PVP builds. Tho' I don't PVP, so what do I know there, really?
Sour grapes aside, these are great rewards. Not every character will benefit from every vet reward, most of mine still have plenty of vet tokens left, but my lvl 32 MM is out of free costume changes, so a 50% discount is just what the doctor ordered. 
Also, depending on your build, not having to take a prerequisite power to take a travel power is huge! Not useful for every character you make, but certain builds it will make a huge difference.
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3. If players were aloud to buy the rewards, I don't think they should be able to pick and choose. They would be aloud to buy them in order from whatever reward they are currently on. So if you have 9 months of Vet rewards and want the 24th month vet reward, you'd have to buy 12, 15, 18, 21, and then 24. That's $25 that just went to the game and that helps now, not in 2 years when this player will supposedly still be playing just so they can get this reward. Just don't include the Badge with the rewards, this way you can still see how long people have actually been playing.
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I'd be game for that .. it would appease a few of the Have-me-Nots, and provide extra income to the Dev team, which = more stuff for everyone.
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Hey your right, while were at it, why not be able to purchase badges, and alcolades, heck why not even levels?
I know I'd pay money to get to 50 higher, I mean all those power leveling companies are taking revanue which COH could use. Lets just eliminate the middle man and take that revenue.
/sarcasm
vet rewards are just like any award, you should earn it to have any value.
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Strawman argument Loses.
Veteran Rewards are not accolades, and no one is talking about selling Levels. And badges? There is no reason I can see, beyond Pure Vanity, to WANT to buy them, so no reason to sell them.
Try harder next time.
My memory's not as sharp as it used to be.
Also, my memory's not as sharp as it used to be.
"The tip of a shoelace is called an aglet, its true purpose is sinister." The Question
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How many old timers are there still around to be able to get the 60 months Vet Reward during this year anyway? I'm due for late June.
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You'd be surprised at the number of early players this game has retained, or so I hear.
My memory's not as sharp as it used to be.
Also, my memory's not as sharp as it used to be.
"The tip of a shoelace is called an aglet, its true purpose is sinister." The Question
Yep, Beta'd the game & still here kicking villains off buildings!
(or punching cops in the face on the Rouge Isles!)
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How many old timers are there still around to be able to get the 60 months Vet Reward during this year anyway? I'm due for late June.
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You'd be surprised at the number of early players this game has retained, or so I hear.
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There's also a very large number of players who were here during beta and release, quit after ED, but came back because they discovered that CoX is still the best MMOG they ever played.
Sadly, people like that aren't going to get the 60 month reward anytime soon. Because of my two-year hiatus, I've just gotten the 36 month one.
...
New Webcomic -- Genocide Man
Life is funny. Death is funnier. Mass slaughter can be hilarious.
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Frankly, I don't see that giving players the option to buy veteran rewards -- in packs, through micropayments, whatever -- would be a bad thing, either. ... Seems like it'd be the best solution, honestly.
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I can't agree at all.
City of Heroes is based on a subscription-only fee system. There is no cost to buy new upgrades (except for the optional costume packs), there are no expansion packs to purchase. You can join today and receive the benefit of 5+ years of game development, for the cost of $19.99 (or whatever they're selling the box for these days).
Such a fee structure also means you can quit for any length of time and come back without penalty. Your stuff doesn't decay, your equipment doesn't lose its charges, and your base doesn't get confiscated. The only things you might lose are a) your name, and b) veteran rewards.
This has the effect of encouraging on-again, off-again subscribers. When a new Issue is released after 5 months, they come back for 30 days, pay $15 bucks, and get all the content that the rest of us paid $75 to help develop. Their penalty? Usually, nothing.
Look at purchasable Veteran Rewards in that light. They are made by design to reward the people who aren't the bouncy in-and-out on-and-off users. What other system can you imagine will have this effect?
If a Veteran Reward is purchased at the cost of 3 months' subscription, why should they sell it for less, especially when the system itself is designed to encourage people to stay subscribed?
The alternatives, as I see it:
1. As soon as you unsubscribe, your base is deleted, and all your superhero names are erased. This would be draconian but it would give people a disincentive to play the leave-and-come-back game. It would also, however, be a disincentive for departing players ever to return it would burn bridges permanently. Some people would stomp off and quit because they can't have everything for free.
2. Reward people based on longevity, as now. Some people would be rewarded for staying and paying, and some people would stomp off and quit because they can't have everything for free.
3. Allow people to purchase VRs in some order, for cash. Some people who currently pay $45/reward would downgrade to buying the VR packs at $10/reward. Some people who currently pay nothing might fork over for the VRs. Some people would stomp off and quit because they can't have everything for free.
4. Allow people to purchase VRs in some fashion, with Influence or in-game missions. Some people would stomp off and quit because they can't have everything for free. Real money trading would skyrocket and gold farmers would have a field day. Items offered as long-term veteran rewards would be acquired in a weekend.
5. Switch to a pay-for-each-Issue business model. All issues are now $50 each. Some people would stomp off and quit because they can't have everything for free.
Did I miss any?
Edit: What it breaks down to, in my eyes, is this: if a veteran pays $45 per reward and a new player pays $10 per reward, which customer would you rather have, and how do you get more of the former? Which player helps offset the cost of game development, the loyal fan who pays and plays, or the on-again-off-again fan who wants a discount?
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Edit: What it breaks down to, in my eyes, is this: if a veteran pays $45 per reward and a new player pays $10 per reward, which customer would you rather have, and how do you get more of the former? Which player helps offset the cost of game development, the loyal fan who pays and plays, or the on-again-off-again fan who wants a discount?
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Seems to me the correct answer is both.
But if I had to choose, I'd probably favor the fly-by-night fan, since the loyal fans are more likely to play the game non-stop even if they aren't rewarded. The extra money I make from selling VR packs is money I wouldn't otherwise have, whereas the $45 from the vets is money I'm already getting.
This is, presumably, why we're seeing all the $10 content packs being developed now. Cyborgs could have been released as a Veteran's Reward, but they were instead sold to everyone.
-D
Darkonne: Pinnacle's (unofficially) mighty Dark Miasma/Radiation Blast enthusiast!
Be sure to check out this mighty Arc:
#161865 - Aeon's Nemesis
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Question: Can I take, say, Whirlwind at level 6 as well?
It'd be silly to do so, but I want to know if that's possible.
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No, the final tier powers like Acrobatics and Whirlwind still have the normal requirements both in terms of level and power selections.
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I must say, I was thinking that it would be nice to be able to take Phase Shift with Superior Invisibility and Group Invisibility, and not be forced to take Invisibility and Grant Invisibility instead because you want to be able to be incorporal. Still, I can understand, this wasn't meant to provide access to all high level Pool powers, just the travel powers.
Concealment wasn't even in the list of Power Sets opened up in this way. (Not that Stealth isn't perfectly fine as an option for a "getting around baddies" power, instead of Invisibility)
being a 51 month vet, i wouldn't care if people baught the rewards, the only ones worth having are...
sands of mu / ghost slaying axe
blackwand / nam staff
Port team
base teleport
and the respec rewards
as for the...
costume peices,
free tailor tokens,
base items,
vet pets,
discount tailor card
opening teir 3 at level 6
5 merits?
prestige sprints
garbage filler junk that is mostly pointless
the only power I could see people skipping out of and going "stright" for a tier 3 power would be for the NON combat power pools.