Live Feedback: Issue 13 : PvP Revamp (POSITIVE)
By
300_below,
Posted on: 2008-12-11 19:30 in Developers' Corner
Subjective:
Overall I really enjoy the changes to PVP 2.0, I'm finding it much easier now to get people interested in casual PVP then before. Fights are more interesting and last longer and the Diminished returns seem to be fostering more team work.
Within my SG, our weekly three hour arena events on Thursdays has become several times a week random pick up events. It's not uncommon now for me to hear people forming their own random arena events to face off against each other. Squishy characters are also more willing to wade in, and after trying it once.
The response I've seen from people so far as been positive at least within our SG. We are not however hardcore PVPers, more casual then anything else.
Some objective feedback:
<ul type="square">[*] People are confused when they first get a inf/prestige/salvage drop in the arena. Could we maybe have some sort of text associated with these drops like when you get a enhancement so people know its a pvp reward or they they received something? Maybe they could recieve a type of PVP token instead that can be turned in for stuff by vendors near the arena kiosks or zone hospitals?
[*] When setting up Teams in the arena it would be nice if you could specify the leader for each individual team. Maybe it doesn't really matter much but for RP sake it does.
[*] People seem confused about when suppression kicks in, could we possibly get some sort of visual indicator that suppression is active, even if its just the cyan rings around the wrists and ankles like some slow powers give.
[*] Is there a reason that slow powers seem completely unaffective? Caltrops seem to have no noticeable effect now, except for the paltry damage. Likewise for web grenade and any other slowing power. If the slow effect of these powers is basically null maybe they need a buff in another way. Like caltrops maybe does more damage or the web grenade has a greater effect on recharge. As it stands these seem basically useless in PVP.[/list]
Since i13 went live I've only been able to do a little zone pvping, though I hope to get to the Arena matches tonight.
Objective Feedback
Shivan and Nuke gathering has not been crippled. I've done runs with both low and high level characters to replace Shivans as well as gathering a full set of Nukes with my Dominator.
Both activities, without interference from other players, are quit doable (the Shivans by a range of characters including several Defenders, a Peacebringer, a Scrapper and a Brute).
Subjective Feedback
The PvP fighting I've done in i13 has been more fun and more enjoyable than the battles I fought in early issues. This may be do to any number of reasons, from the caliber of the opponents (who've all been very cordial), to the effects of the changes. Ultimately though it's simply been more enjoyable and I have more desire to return and have more fights.
In terms of performance testing, I've tried a Peacebringer, an Empathy Defender, a Mind/Nrg Dominator and a Kat/SR Scrapper in duels in Warburg and found each of them to perform well.
Despite winning no matches with my Emp, the fights were entertaining because they lasted long enough for me to feel I was having some effect on my foe. I contrast this with a battle I fought in i12 where my Fire/Fire blaster was unable to overcome the regeneration rate of a SS/Fire Brute who was standing still and not fighting back. It's possible that disparity still exists, but so far I have not encountered it.
"Striving for the impossible" doesn't mean "toiling in vain". It means growth. It means improvement in the direction of your ideals. Not futility.
Erfworld: the Battle for Gobwin Knob
Move to the negative feed back section. I am glad to see you have a spot for both now.
Pinnacle
Arch light L50 INV/SS
Psiberia L50 Kin/Psi
Screaming Mentallica L50 Sonic/MM
Infinity
Arc Voltinator L50 SS/Elec
Mind Fire Kinesis L50 Fire/Kin
Flaming Screamer L50 Fire/Sonic
Subjective:
I've been enjoying PvP more with the new changes. I'm not instantly blasting anyone out of the water nor they me. I've engaged in a few fun running aerial battles as a result.
Objective ::
I've been in Recluse's Victory more often than I have been for a long time since i13 dropped.
I have not gone to any of the other PvP zones or the Arena since i13 dropped.
Subjective ::
I think I've been in the PvP zones more often because the DEVs are trying to get more players into PvP.
I can't say that I've been fighting players much on the live server as I tend to try to use the zone content (using heavy's and taking pill boxes in RV, helping one side to win in hot zones in Siren's Call, etc.) I'm going to do what I can in RV to make my side win.
I like some of the aspects of the new PvP more. There seems to be more moving around going on.
Objective:
Saw a great deal more use of NPCs by hero side. Saw most battles last much longer than I saw in the past, though I wouldn't say overly long.
Generally, survivability of all ATs seems much better.
Subjective:
First time I've felt like I had a real chance to contribute to the battles.
My Stalker was able to survive longer and actually defeat heroes. My arch-foe was typically a Scrapper, though if I catch them by surprise, I win the encounter. I did a few 1 vs 1 with a scrapper but the outcome was skewed by the horde of NPCs all over the place.
I could really wish for all the NPCs to be removed from RV or sequestered in a specific area for those who wish to fight them.
Generally, I found PvP to be fun for the first time on this game, ever.
Cal2
In general the PvP changes seem good to me. As an extremely casual PvPer, I am usually easy bait for the PvP crowd.
I say I am a casual PvPer because I only enter PvP zones or Arenas for 2 reasons.
1. I am looking for some specific game reward such as badges or temp powewrs.
2. My online friends actually prevail upon me to PvP.
In the old style PvP, it would take about 15 seconds for some avid PvPer to jump on me. Another 15 seconds saw me dead. The ease of my deaths seamed to be like chum in the water to those PvPers that seem to feel they must do whatever they can to make sure the inept players who actually brave the zones will become totally discouraged by endlessly repetative and seemingly meaningless (the game does not actually reward rapidly defeating the same foe in succession) quickfire defeats. Now, at least I have a chance to get away from most people and possibly even win about 10% of the time if I fight back. As long as I am just interested in getting whatever reward I came for, I can get it and run and the less friendly players tend to get frustrated having to chase for any duration.
Some of the changes don't seem to encourage play though. It seems that (de)buffs, heals and mezzes received the most nerf aggro. Defenders and controllers definitely took a hit. Some of it was needed when you consider the dominance of Radiation and Perma Dom, but then you think about things like Containment and primary/seconday choices and you can easily see why any controller player would be extremely upset by PvP v 2.0.
Could we see the NPCs and RV Heavies face the same nerfs that players get? being indefinitely held by Longbow after successfully escaping an 8-man controller team just seems wrong
Now, the Devs can twist, tweak and pervert powers for PvP balance as they wish without effecting PvE, and vice verse. Hopefully, the devs might rethink some of the PvP balance nerfs that were suffered in the past while developing a more dynamic relationship with the avid PvP crowd. They could change the entire mechanic for Containment in PvP if data mining shows controllers taking too large a hit without it doing anything to PvE or any number of other things. Ultimately, this is the best change I have seen in CoX since PvP was introduced. Universal changes always resulted in increasing PvP vs PvE bickering.
I have a couple of suggestions for Arena options.
1. turn off accolades option
2. turn off set bonuses option
The more casual players most likely lack accolades and sets (at least the optimal sets) Being able to switch these off would allow casual players to fight their optimized friends with less of a disadvantage. It would also recall the nastalgia of times when we didnt have those fancy set bonuses and our accolades were nerfed by exemping as we walked uphill through 10 feet of snow to reach the arena, both ways.
Post deleted by Ex Libris
Post deleted by Ex Libris
Post deleted by Ex Libris
Asking for a system where people could voluntarily nerf themselves instead of being forced into nerfs by the Dev team isn't asking for free stuff. The intent is do allow those of us who have not, for some reason, maximized our toons to be gently introduced to PvP so that we can get up to speed instead of nerf nuking the people who actually spent the time and effort to learn the system.
As I said in the negative feedback section, nerfing PvP to where I can survive it better does nothing to get me into these zones where I have to deal with personality traits I have no desire to encounter at close range. I have no complaints about this system, but I won't use it more than 5 times a year.
Objective:
It is easier for me to get new players into PVP and to keep them PVPing without becoming frustrated and giving up. Matches tend to be closer, less one sided. Many powers that were not useful before are now viable in pvp.
Subjective:
I am glad that PVP is being reworked and I feel this design philosophy is moving it in the right direction. Often in the previous PVP, players would becoming overwhelmed with the influence expense of creating viable characters or restricted by the stringent game play. Pushing for all archetypes, powers and builds to be competitive in PVP is the right idea and these changes have brought the game a step closer to that goal.
I think the best change of all is that now people seem to have an easier time making flying characters that can PvP. Whatever changes they make in the future I hope that this remains the case.
OBJECTIVE (not opinion based) feedback:
- one really good thing about i13 PvP is the lack of dependence on any one inspiration.
- second, is that teaming in PvP is to be the most effective if all players multi-task and use both their Primary and secondary. This takes many players to a different level of play were its not as easy as being just the "buffer", "healer" or "taunt bot" anymore.
- many ATs (excluding Doms and blasters) have been placed appropriately in their respective roles and even when fighting each combination of ATs there is a chance to win or lose depending on skill and style. This is also made possible because of the inheret AT PvP resistances, resistable AS values, and the buff to taunt.
- Slightly less dramatic differentiation between PvE builds and PvP specific builds in a PvP environment.
- Elusivity really helped many sets that were slightly underperforming before, (but at the same time, some elusivity values are uncalled for such as blaster and dom PFF values which essentially made these damage/damgecontroll ATs capable of being more resilient than a tank or brute.)
- PvP rewards medium inspirations and enough influence to buy more inspirations.
- Fly is more viable.
- TP foes is slightly less useful, and makes it harder for people to grief.
- More viable ATs for high end arena matches.
- Multi-Builds
Subjective (less important personal opinions) feedback:
- I like how many of my ATs feel more comic book like than before as i (or i must) have taken more powers that not only make me more effective in PvP but make me fit the comic book theme.
(This opinion stuff is hard soo i'll stop here.)
Positive FeedBack:
Taking away absurd one hit one kill abilities like say inferno, was good.
Toggles not dropping during mez was very good.
Giving the lesser hp ATs (aka squishies) more resist against damage i can dig it.
Tp suppression i could dig it if it granted 3/4 second of drone immunity, with the other tp changes.
The taunt changes very good
The new ppp/epics excellent
The npc's being strong? I'm torn on this one because atleast now if things get bad you can retreat to your factions npc's and they actually can help you out, in 12 your attackers would just plow over you and them.
Ispiration suppresion, i actually like this as it stopped the med store runners, fill up on inspir pop em fight and rinse, now as it stands it's not so bountiful to do that.
Now for the Bad: Heal suppression is not really that good imo, first it nuetralizes the uses of healing class AT's, and even worse their is no reason that your own self heal should suppress this doesnt make since. Ok if we grant that a outside healer can't just sit and spam heals on you, i CAN live with that, what i CANT live with is on say regen. Their only form of mitigation is the heals and if your taking almost 100% incoming damage than it comes a time you might need to use more than one of your heals at once. But to suppress it is a indirect nerfing to the whole set and either the suppression has to be removed or some extra mitigation needs to be givin to the set.
Travel suppression, is just not any fun, you spend the whole game trying to avoid being suppressed, via the powers you pick, or even how you slot them, only to be suppressed after ever action you take Ladies and Gents this is not fun, i don't know who's idea this was but they obviously never pvp'd and had fun or pvp'd period because they would have not allowed this to be added, this does nothing but frustrates everyone the attacker and the attacked. Even self buffing or healing yourself suppresses you it's horrible.
And now we come to the worst change in pvp, DR i can see the wisdom behind the inital thought of DR, bit the execution was horrible imo. The values in place, are just to extreem, and once again we find a change that the only thing it manages to successfully diminish is our fun. So DR stands for " Diminish fun and those who left won't Return"
You guys although you meant well took the fun and fight out of pvp, i can do all the same things i did before i13 it's just now i don't feel like i earned it, and most importantly i'm not having any fun doing it.
The mez resist is also not so good, i mean you guys kinda dumbed down pvp with this change, you don't even need bf's and everyone can easily hold anyone, Which totally takes the value of being a dominator or troller away, and that even suppresses IE a tank uses his cheap hold on you you suppress, and if say a troller tries during that suppression stage you can just pound his face in.
Mez resist for tp is also silly, you guys actually made it easier to drone people, atleast before you could use a set that had protections or use a orange and defeat it now it either takes two oranges or a tp resist set and one small orange this isnt realy any fun, like in my case i got droned almost ten times in a 25 min period and several times i wasnt even near the base they just slotted the range on it and was getting us from the hillside near the hero base.
Also bad is it used to be many ways to fight and have fun, some ppl even though a minority, really loved thier melee toons and used to duel, in all out toe to toe slugfest until someone fell. A good fight good build could take upwards or 20 min or more, i had a fight ones for like 30 min until i made a mistake and lost. These type of fights were largely determined by who made the first mistake or the most mistakes. And to those who did them they were good fun, a change of pace, and tested your resolve, these are no longer possible, dr will click in and your lucky to get a 5 min fight.
The ballance is thrown all out of wack, their is no reason why two melee AT's of equal strenth shouldnt fight to a draw if both made no mistakes. Like if a dm/wp tank fought a dm/wp tank this fight should be a stalemate, but not the tank will win everytime.
Objective: Looking from the outside in, dr needs to suffer from dr and be lowered.
Travel suppression needs to be washed, it's just not fun guys, the whole everything i do make me suppress.
Mez needs to be put back, it was actually ok, id rather see holds lose thier mag in pvp than this new resist deal.
But thats all from me thanks for listining :P
The funny thing is, even though you seem like one of the whiners that got the changes made in the first place, you're probably still bad..------Macskull on Crop_of_shaolin
http://ravens-wins.mybrute.com
I also find i13 PvP to be at least a bit... Liberating.
Now I can run into the zones without fear of insta-death, and actually fight for more than 3 seconds without spamming inspirations and holding down the space bar.
I really hated watching the other heroes and villains bounce around the PvP zones like amphetamine-fueled bunnies. It made PvP a chaotic mess of particle effect trails and cowardly fleeing.
-Rachel-
My SG team was in Bloody Bay the other day. We'd just gotten SOs and decided to get some Shivans.
Near the last meteor we got jumped by some villains. I've PvPed a little before the changes and frankly I didn't even notice the difference. Well... except that no one was bouncing around like a wacked out jumping bean on crack.
We stood our ground and fought. My team lost. But it was fun!
We didn't get insta-ganked. No one was bouncing around like a cracked out wack-tard. No one was two or three shoted. It only lasted maybe a minute, but prior to I13 it would have lasted about 3 seconds. Hint to the "l33t PvPers": getting dropped like a wet-washcloth in 1.87 seconds is fun for you, but for those of us that have lives and don't have the time to purple out a character and practice calling targets for 20 hours a week it is not fun.
It felt like an actual fight between comic book superheroes and supervillains. Perhaps that was the point of the changes?
Folks this is a reminder that this is not a discussion thread. If it was open for back and forth discussion then the topic would be labeled discussion.
There is no right or wrong answer when we ask for feedback so please do not feel the need to sway someone's perspective. Please just accept that they see and play the game differently from you.
Thank you for your help in keeping this feedback process on track.
Regards,
Ex Libris
My observations running around on my Fire/Fire Brute
Objective Feedback
In the pre-I13 environment my brute was either perma-held or kite blasted to death in short order or increadibly long stalemate fights against other "tough" AT's. Post-I13 my brute has a very good chance to defeat most enemies and the lolfiteclub encounters have a definite resolution. Has a tough time against Defense based toons, but if I had build up it would probably not be quite the same problem.
My Sonic/Sonic corruptor is not quite the same experience, I think I am going to need to get Phase to make it an effective toon, but thats a problem with my build and not the system itself.
Importantly, if the PvP changes goal was to make more builds useful/viable it seems to have succeeded.
"I accidently killed Synapse, do we need to restart the mission?" - The Oldest One on Lord Recluses Strike Force
I really enjoy the PvP changes in issue 13, I think PvP is much more fun than it was before, for a wider variety of AT's. Before issue 13, some builds were completely useless for PvP, there is no point to even make it. Issue 13 opened up PvP to a wider variety of builds than before.
I think you guys shoud slow down and take it easy when it come to pvp. You folks are spending to much time trying to promote it. Why would i pvp when if i win or lose i get nothing for it. Why would i pvp when powers of hero's are nurfed so that villians can win a few. why would pvp when at the most i can get is a badge and im not into badge hunting. The time you spend on promoting and trying to get somebody to pvp can be better used on creating new lvl 50 contact in PI with mission that can cross over to villian encounters.
With i13 the battles I've been in (I'm exclusively RV and Sirens PvP by the way) team members seem to live longer, there are less insta-deaths. They also are less scattered all over the map. I believe skill and team building now has a much bigger role in success. My PvP'ing has been less that usual lately, for no particular reason, but so far I believe the changes are for the better. I'm a pretty hardcore PvP'er. I would encourage folks curious about PvP to give it a try. But remember getting defeated, maybe often, is not unusual in PvP until you find your best build and become skilled. Even with these changes you'll need a tough hide --not be too sensitive about defeats.
So far my taste of the new changes has left me with satisfaction.
Battles truly feel like a battle. No more two shots and its over. Holds are no longer crippling and above all I have been able to get more of the VG interested in pvping.
I also have not been droned once since tp foe got nerfed. Ya that hurt my mastermind a tad but it still makes me happy.
I have respeced my tank in anticipation of utilizing the changes to taunt. Im really looking forward to that since no one seems to want an invuln on a high end pve team anymore. Figure at least this way i might be able to actually play him.
*readies fire extinguisher*
the good things i like
1. damage changes. shout should hit harder for what it takes a hit on in animation and activation time. defender should be able to do more damage(not as much as the damage archtypes)
2.the resists almost make squishies more playable(though an equal boost in hit points across the board would have worked better)
3. snipes are worth taking now.
but thats all please see my other post in the other thread and bring your reading glasses and a case of beer.
Use the following topic to discuss Issue 13's PVP Revamp (POSITIVE REMARKS).
<ul type="square">[*] PvP combat has been completely revamped in this issue, in an attempt to make it more fun for all ATs and builds. Please note that these changes only take effect in PvP situations; these changes have no effect on PvE. Here are a summary of the major changes:[*] The damage of all attacks has been refigured. Basically, the longer the activation/animation time of an attack power, the more damage the power is going to do. There are adjustments for recharge time and Endurance cost, but the actual time the power takes up in an attack chain is the primary consideration.[*] In general, the base damage of all Archetypes has been increased in PvP zones and Arenas. The Containment bonus for Controllers in PvP has been reduced because of their higher base damage.[*] Being hit by an attack triggers movement suppression, just as making an attack does. Suppression for being hit by an attack is always the same duration. Any power with a negative impact on the target (including all debuff powers) is considered an attack.[*] Note that Teleport powers are completely disabled when suppressed.[*] Healing powers also trigger suppression.[*] The greater the base range of an attack, the longer the suppression for the attacker.[*] Teleport Foe and related powers in Gravity Control and Warshade powersets now grant 3/4 of a second "untouchable" flag on the target.[*] Resistance and defense powers have greater diminishing returns when stacked than in PvE, and lower caps.[*] Healing powers suffer from diminishing returns when several are used in a short period of time.[*] All Archetypes (except Tankers and Masterminds) have some default resistances to all attacks in PVP.[*] Unlike in PvE, defensive toggles do not suppress when you are held/stunned. This means that not only do the toggles not drop, they continue to grant defenses while the player is held/stunned.[*] Melee classes gain extra resistances to all debuffs and to movement slows. These bonuses are linked to the power in each set that gives status protection (Unyielding Stance, Wet Ice, Plasma Shield, etc.).[*] "Buffing" Archetypes (Defenders, Controllers, Corruptors, Dominators and Masterminds) have less ability to benefit from all buffing powers than other ATs (the powers have less effect on them, and their caps are lower).[*] Melee ATs gain more benefit from buffing powers than other Archetypes (the powers have greater effect on them, and their caps are higher).[*] Defeating enemies in PvP can award Influence/Infamy, Inspirations, and rarely Salvage, but no XP.[*] In general, there is no such thing as Status Protection in PvP, only Resistance. The exception is Knockback protection, since Knockback is a binary effect. The base durations of status effects are greatly reduced in PvP (generally 4 seconds for Controllers and Dominators, 2 seconds for all other Archetypes).[/list]---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Feedback is important to our development process, there are two types of feedback and both are helpful although some give us more insight and are more easily adapted into game changes.
Objective Feedback: Objective feedback is based upon what you as a user see or experience that other users may also see and experience. This feedback usually can be replicated easily as it involves facts and unbiased opinions. Example: When using the base editor items are sometimes getting caught in columns or pillars.
Subjective Feedback: Subjective feedback is based upon how you feel or experience the game as yourself. This experience may not necessarily be replicated because it is based on feeling and emotion. Subjective feedback is important to us but it is usually helpful if more information is present to describe what and why you feel the way you do. Example: I like the way the graphics look on my shield animation it gives me the feeling of being truly super-powered.
Are you reporting a bug from Issue 13? Please use this thread to report bugs, there is a format in the OP that you can follow to help you in your reporting. Issue 13: BUGS