Live Feedback: Issue 13 : PvP Revamp (POSITIVE)
By
300_below,
Posted on: 2008-12-11 19:30 in Developers' Corner
Sitting inside PFF with aid self makes you unkillable by anyone or any group of players. It's super. If you took all the pvper's left across all the servers and put them against anyone in PFF with aid self I'm not sure they could kill it.
g/j
Though I dont agree with PFF uberness being great, I am finding zone PvP more fun than I used too.
There are problems, suppression is a bit overdone, and the NPCs are pissing us all off, but generally it's an improvement.
Damage rebalancing has made a lot of formerly useless toons PvP worthy. I see lots of fenders getting onto PvP in RV on Freedom now, never used to see that. Also a lot more doms having a go (mainly due to OP PFF :/).
The lack of status protection coupled with reduced mez time is actually fun when you get used to it (I hated it at 1st on test). In fact I find I use mez more now than before, because I know it will do something if it hits, even if only a few secs it can buy time to close ground for mellee or run....
Healing decay prevents pocket emps from creating totally unfair situations (I used to pocket emp on ill/emp a lot - friend's blasters could take out whole teams of vills with my toon in thier pocket). However, HD is overdone, pocket emps would heal dozens of times in an encounter, reducing them to 2 effective heals in a row (or 1 and 1/2) is a bit too much.
DR is hard to speak fondly of, only good thing i see there is no more perma doms and limiting defense (def heavy toons like SR 3 minute fighters were no fun too fight the old way). Some things dont improve the game with DR though, like recovery.
The effect of new PvP that I've experienced is that I'm playing in RV a lot more than I have in ages and enjoying it more. On Freedom we dont seem to have less toons in RV at least, usually large groups of vills and/or hero's there.
From the negatives I've read, I think most are those who were used to ganking easy, and now they cant. You look at their toon lists in their posts, usually scrappers, stalkers and brutes.
As for negatives about not being able too escape if outnumbered due to suppression (lot of posts in negative)... I just came from RV where I was running the gauntlet of a hero horde on my sonic/rad/mako corr. I was base runnin like a chicken a fair bit but killing more of them than they did me. Suppression slowed me sure, but I still escaped 3/4 of the time against several hero's. When I 1st ventured out into RV tonight I was ganked twice due to rust on my corr :P(acct had been inactive) Once I got into the swing of it, I went from frustration to having fun and stayed there for hours (only went in for a quick lap).
I don't play those toons you say are ganking toons. And I find it a bit unfair for you to suggest that people who don't like the new pvp are gankers. I'm anything but. And freedom is the exception to the rule as you guys are the most popular server. So pardon me if I do not share your views on the new PVP.
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Damage rebalancing has made a lot of formerly useless toons PvP worthy. I see lots of fenders getting onto PvP in RV on Freedom now, never used to see that.
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Yeah because I never saw any Rad/psi's, Rad/Sonics, Cold/*, Emp/* , TA/*, Kin/* defenders or Mind/Fire, Fire/Fire doms in RV.......Don't know what Freedom RV you had been playing in, but I was on my Rad/Psi in there a lot and it wasnt normally the only defender in there.........
OLD SCHOOL PvP
Rad/Psi,Psi/Em,Fire/Em,Cld/Sonic,FF/Sonic,Grav/Ta,Storm/Psi,Sp/WP,Fire/Psi,Sonic/Pain
RIP:Southern Comfort PvP,PE PvP,INTEGRITY PvP,After School Special PvP Test SG's,TPvPL Season1+2 Runner ups
Most feared person in I12 PvP Triumph zones were a MM and a Defender, Airborne Elite (Merc/Trap) and Ablate (Rad/Sonic) respectively. Atleast, one of the most.
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Most feared person in I12 PvP Triumph zones were a MM and a Defender, Airborne Elite (Merc/Trap) and Ablate (Rad/Sonic) respectively. Atleast, one of the most.
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Ablate (Rad/Sonic)- would agree that he was one of the most feared.
Airborne Elite (Merc/Trap)-good but definately not the most feared. I would go with Helms fort or dom or Avid on his dom(on the rare occasions that he was actually on live and on it) or Barbie's or Ninja's stalker or Butch's annoying cold.
OLD SCHOOL PvP
Rad/Psi,Psi/Em,Fire/Em,Cld/Sonic,FF/Sonic,Grav/Ta,Storm/Psi,Sp/WP,Fire/Psi,Sonic/Pain
RIP:Southern Comfort PvP,PE PvP,INTEGRITY PvP,After School Special PvP Test SG's,TPvPL Season1+2 Runner ups
Yea, I just didn't see them in enough to be most feared. I don't think Jack ever went an hour without atleast stopping in a PvP zone to blow someone up.
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I don't play those toons you say are ganking toons. And I find it a bit unfair for you to suggest that people who don't like the new pvp are gankers. I'm anything but. So pardon me if I do not share your views on the new PVP.
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Yeah I hate it when people "Assume" stuff 
but if you have issue's with pvp i13 lets move those over to the PvP 13 Negative thread here 
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Fight my brute
Overall my experience in i13 pvp has been positive.
The changes to mez were fantastic. Lockdown mez never, ever contributed anything positive to pvp and it's a much better system now.
TA was a set that people said was doomed. They were wrong. Both from the controller and defender sides I've had better success closing the deal for kills than in i12. Even with slows taken out of the game, stapling people to the ground and debuffing them still gets them killed.
Empathy was another set the crowd was wrong on. It plays differently now but overall still useful. Healing takes more strategy and buffs aren't as strong but the presence of an empath still incites the other side to cry "unfair" as much a it ever did. People who completely ignored their secondaries are going to have to go back to the drawing board. This is an improvement.
Blasters are much more balanced on the whole now.
I've got a couple bones to pick on the negative side but that's for another thread.
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Most feared person in I12 PvP Triumph zones were a MM and a Defender, Airborne Elite (Merc/Trap) and Ablate (Rad/Sonic) respectively. Atleast, one of the most.
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Ablate (Rad/Sonic)- would agree that he was one of the most feared.
Airborne Elite (Merc/Trap)-good but definately not the most feared. I would go with Helms fort or dom or Avid on his dom(on the rare occasions that he was actually on live and on it) or Barbie's or Ninja's stalker or Butch's annoying cold.
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lies it was Jimmay on his Ice Cold Corr :P
ah yeah mah bad i totally left out son of rainbow brite 
OLD SCHOOL PvP
Rad/Psi,Psi/Em,Fire/Em,Cld/Sonic,FF/Sonic,Grav/Ta,Storm/Psi,Sp/WP,Fire/Psi,Sonic/Pain
RIP:Southern Comfort PvP,PE PvP,INTEGRITY PvP,After School Special PvP Test SG's,TPvPL Season1+2 Runner ups
Yes there have usually been 'some' fenders in RV on Freedom in the past (my rad/psi has always been my main PvP toon), now there are 'lots' of fenders in RV.
1 of the 1st teams I joined in RV since i13 was mostly fenders, I was surprised and commented, others in the team agreed there are more fenders in RV since i13.
Another AT that rarely used to be seen in RV was the Kelds, I've seen several in RV on Freedom since i13, especially WS's.
Doms have always been around too but not as many as Ive seen since i13.
The rebalancing has brought a lot more of the formally percieved 'not so great for PvP' toons into PvP zones. Before i13 Freedom RV was mostly stalkers, brutes, ice/fire tanks and scrappers. I think the new status rules have played a big part in the changes I'm seeing too, no more constant zoning to buy BFs.
This is probably not the positive feedback you were looking for, but oh well- you reaps what you sows.
The new PvP setup makes it much easier for my squishies to gather up Shivans and Nukes solo.
- Point one: they are now much tougher in relation to the NPC mobs roaming around.
- Point two: With the former PvP crowd relegated to the trashbin of history, there is no one in the zones to interfere with my acquisition.
As gaining the temp powers and/or badges associated with them was the only reason I ever went into a PvP zone, you have my thanks for making it easier for the casual soloist.
Statesmonkey Sez: Lighten up! It's a game, for Lincoln's sake!
Also: Six years of casual play begins to look an awful lot like one year of hardcore play.
I reactivated my account to check out the PvP changes.
This new mez system is so much better. I love it. Makes fights a lot less binary. Really smart change. Good job Devs.
Ditto on travel suppression. There might be a few things that need further tweaking - I wasn't happy about having to respec my main toon out of Teleport. - but generally this makes zone PvP a lot more fun. Pre-I13, it was a game of tag. Now it's a fight. I'm seeing spontaneous group vs group clusters forming, instead of just a swarm of individuals bouncing around all over the place, running as soon as they get scared they may die.
I understand players who built to abuse the too-fast toggle-dropping insta-kill old mechanics are frustrated right now, but ultimately I believe PvP will be much better off for these changes.
However, WTF is with the DR numbers? Not a horrible idea, but so extremely implemented I can't believe it got out of beta this way. Many powers are now nearly useless. And in a RPG smart builds should still be superior. Dial DR down and you've got a good game here.
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I reactivated my account to check out the PvP changes.
This new mez system is so much better. I love it. Makes fights a lot less binary. Really smart change. Good job Devs.
Ditto on travel suppression. There might be a few things that need further tweaking - I wasn't happy about having to respec my main toon out of Teleport. - but generally this makes zone PvP a lot more fun. Pre-I13, it was a game of tag. Now it's a fight. I'm seeing spontaneous group vs group clusters forming, instead of just a swarm of individuals bouncing around all over the place, running as soon as they get scared they may die.
I understand players who built to abuse the too-fast toggle-dropping insta-kill old mechanics are frustrated right now, but ultimately I believe PvP will be much better off for these changes.
However, WTF is with the DR numbers? Not a horrible idea, but so extremely implemented I can't believe it got out of beta this way. Many powers are now nearly useless. And in a RPG smart builds should still be superior. Dial DR down and you've got a good game here.
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I haven't PVPed very much at all, but what little I tried out, I liked. I think this guy hit most of it on the head. But I think the travel suppression is a problem. But what would solve the problem is to only put the suppression on someone making an attack, not someone getting attacked. If you want to make someone stop moving, mez them. I don't want to be running around and get shot by some random jerk and suddenly stop moving so I keep getting shot when I don't want to fight that person. That's how I see it.
And this guy was right, it seems like diminishing returns is a good idea but it seriously needs to be toned down.
I was able to PvP as a casual player and I liked the changes. I am now making a hero up so I have a hero and a villain. I do congratulate the old school PvP for what they were really using supermovement for, attacking PCs loaded with Vista using the superfetch service. Once I saw that the people in Sirens Call were only circling load points it took about 15 seconds to turn off superfetch and watch them all suddenly find reasons to log off.
I also like the new mez system. Now you don't need mega recharge on that fast hold combined with another hold to make it effective. Basically, builds that can add one or more mez attacks are useful again.
Travel suppression, heal suppression, and all other suppressions I hate.
DR, hmm a good idea, but a little extreme in the implementation.
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Has this thread been pruned (severely) or is something wonky?
Today is the 27th, the last post showing to me is the 6th, however the main forum page shows one for today, and I know there were some from last night and today.
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I think someone deleted their post and thus killed all the replies. I could be wrong. Since mine was one of the ones killed, I'll recap:
Like I13 PvP.
Fights seem more even and balanced.
Needs a little polish.
Fortunatas seem a little wonky.
PvP could use some more incentives to draw more people.
Overall good direction, looking forward to more.
Infatum on Virtueverse
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Has this thread been pruned (severely) or is something wonky?
Today is the 27th, the last post showing to me is the 6th, however the main forum page shows one for today, and I know there were some from last night and today.
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Just someone saying how awesome it was that no one was PvP'ing in the zones anymore so they can get Nukes/Shivans without trouble, then a reply of a not so kind nature following it.
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
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Has this thread been pruned (severely) or is something wonky?
Today is the 27th, the last post showing to me is the 6th, however the main forum page shows one for today, and I know there were some from last night and today.
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Just someone saying how awesome it was that no one was PvP'ing in the zones anymore so they can get Nukes/Shivans without trouble, then a reply of a not so kind nature following it.
[/ QUOTE ]I think I was the person who called the other guy a carebear for not wanting to deal with PvP in a PvP zone.
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Before i13, I had tried PvPing a few times and ran through the different zones only occasionally, and as such, I guess I could be considered a casual PvPer at best. But getting into fight's in RV was nothing but a lesson in frustration. Dying repeatedly is not so bad, but being dropped in 2 hits no matter what I did was aggravating. (And this was only farther exasperated by the childish taunting that some players insist on doing, take what you want from that...)
Post i13 has seemingly changed things a lot. I was hesitant to venture out into the seemingly unending sea of hostility that always seemed to accompany going out into RV, but I braved it, if only to say that I at least tried it. Lo and behold, it wasn't so bad. Much to my surprise, I was actually surviving longer then 15 seconds once I got outside of the hero's base!
I'll be the first to admit, I'm not one to sit here and measure the hard numbers difference between i12 and i13. But for me, the changes were pretty positive. This isn't to say that I went out there and started dominating every PvP fight that happened. I still have lost more times then I have won overall, but it just seems more fun and balanced (and anyone who said that there were not any balancing issues before is just outright lying.)
Of one particular thing I feel worth mentioning... NPCs in the PvP areas. In RV, they are all over the place, and I have heard both positive and negative feedback on how they have gone from hardly noticeable speed bumps to a force to be considered. Personally, I think it adds a level of strategy to it all and is a good change. An outnumbered player now actually has allies that they can retreat back to if need be.
"The part of me that is leaving... is going to miss the part of me that is staying..."
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Before i13, I had tried PvPing a few times and ran through the different zones only occasionally, and as such, I guess I could be considered a casual PvPer at best. But getting into fight's in RV was nothing but a lesson in frustration. Dying repeatedly is not so bad, but being dropped in 2 hits no matter what I did was aggravating. (And this was only farther exasperated by the childish taunting that some players insist on doing, take what you want from that...)
Post i13 has seemingly changed things a lot. I was hesitant to venture out into the seemingly unending sea of hostility that always seemed to accompany going out into RV, but I braved it, if only to say that I at least tried it. Lo and behold, it wasn't so bad. Much to my surprise, I was actually surviving longer then 15 seconds once I got outside of the hero's base!
I'll be the first to admit, I'm not one to sit here and measure the hard numbers difference between i12 and i13. But for me, the changes were pretty positive. This isn't to say that I went out there and started dominating every PvP fight that happened. I still have lost more times then I have won overall, but it just seems more fun and balanced (and anyone who said that there were not any balancing issues before is just outright lying.)
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I agree with this post. I don't have a billion hours of free time to grind infamy and tweak a build to compete in pvp that lasts for 5 seconds until someone's dead. So I just ignored PVP.
Now, I'm not new to PVP and I PVP all the time in other games, from the RVR of Warhammer Online to the twitch deathmatches of Exteel. The one thing those games had that CoX never did was their PVP was FUN right out of the gate, with a fresh new character, even if you were a new player.
The learning curve for Exteel is pretty steep, but even as a new player, it's not too hard to join a team death match and perform decently and feel like you've got a shot at winning.
I12 PVP here was the opposite. It was all about knowing the right "tricks" and had actually very little wiggle room for new players to grab onto that learning curve and have fun, win or lose.
Fights should last more than 5 to 10 seconds. The learning curve should not be too steep, the bare-minimum entry requirements to compete should not hinge on having the "right" build. Good PVP games know this
CoX still has a way to go to make their PVP on par with other PVP games, but it's on the right path. I am sure PVP will continue to be tweaked over time and I am very hopeful that it will become a much more fun and rewarding experience all the time.
Overall, good job with the changes. Keep em coming.
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Originally Posted by eltonio
This is over the top mental slavery.
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I mistakenly put this out there on the PvP Negative forum. but as an alternative to travel suppression what if activating a travel put you in only affecting self status for the duration of that toggle running or for TP for a short time afterward you could only affect self. You could still move flee etc... but you can't fight. You would have to turn off travels to fight so you couldn't run and gun.
im struggling to find something in this disaster of an issue....oh yeah the tier 2 blasts acting like a tier 3 in terms of damage is pretty cool, it was a good idea and im glad u got round to fixing shout.
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