Discussion: Castle Talks on w00t Studios Podcast!
By
Aisynia,
Posted on: 2008-10-07 17:18 in News, Events and Announcement Discussion
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I for one welcome our power pool fixing overlords.
Seriously it's a good thing to not have Body pool on EVERY one of my scrappers. I can get away with another pool on my super strength tank (rage) but FA is too good not to be widely available on all melee toons. Give it to stalkers and brutes for parity. Do similar work with power boost/power build up. This is an across the board anti-nerf and I'm glad to see a major restructuring in the right direction.
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If it really was an across the board anti-nerf then the obvious way to go would have been to simply remove FA and not spread it everywhere.
Why killing 20% of the epic powers just to copycat the most uber ones in replacement? Getting rid of the two uber powers like PBoost and FA would be alot more economic no?
I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
Voltaire
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I don't need to wait till beta to know that outright replacement of chosen powers is bad design.
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It makes sense, if you're replacing powers because they're too powerful, grandfathering them in means older characters have a greater advantage than newer characters.
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But i doubt its the good powers that will be replaced. Devs are looking to change the "sucky" ones. So then i see no problem grandfathering players that like their sucky powers? Youd call that an advantage? I call that justice.
I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
Voltaire
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I don't need to wait till beta to know that outright replacement of chosen powers is bad design.
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It makes sense, if you're replacing powers because they're too powerful, grandfathering them in means older characters have a greater advantage than newer characters.
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But i doubt its the good powers that will be replaced. Devs are looking to change the "sucky" ones. So then i see no problem grandfathering players that like their sucky powers? Youd call that an advantage? I call that justice.
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-shrug- For the people whose character concepts are being ruined, they're losing their advantage. I'm just trying to argue reasons for this change. And doing a very poor job of it, it seems. 
tangent: And you know controller fireball will be removed...
Arc #345863 - When The Bough Breaks
"Curse you Perry the Plata...wait, is that Love Handel?" - Dr. Heinz Doofenshmirtz, Phineas and Ferb
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I don't need to wait till beta to know that outright replacement of chosen powers is bad design.
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It makes sense, if you're replacing powers because they're too powerful, grandfathering them in means older characters have a greater advantage than newer characters.
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But i doubt its the good powers that will be replaced. Devs are looking to change the "sucky" ones. So then i see no problem grandfathering players that like their sucky powers? Youd call that an advantage? I call that justice.
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-shrug- For the people whose character concepts are being ruined, they're losing their advantage. I'm just trying to argue reasons for this change. And doing a very poor job of it, it seems.
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"Advantage?" Re-read the above. Someone's "ninja" scrapper (with caltrops, shuriken, exploding shuriken) hardly has an advantage - whereas someone using Focused Accuracy has a huge buff.
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tangent: And you know controller fireball will be removed...
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I highly doubt it, since damage was toned down and they're removing "unpopular" powers.
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I think it's funny how mad some folks get at changes that aren't all even announced yet. So what if they take a power here or there and swap it... learn to deal with it. I mean, did the concept of flexibility disappear while I wasn't looking? It's not like any character will be "perfect" anyway; there is (and always will be) room for improvement on all characters. Why do you think people argue ad infinitum about slotting and power choices on practically every power combination, hmmmm? Because everyone has a different (and in most cases), just as good and valid way of doing things.
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Glad you aren't as attached to your characters and you don't care when drastic (to some) changes to them are announced. I have several characters with the weapons pool, and I could be perfectly happy knowing that if I never respec, I can keep the powers currently picked... logging in and finding my power lineup changed would be more than an annoyance to me.
Should the announced power that's being swapped out not be web grenade, that will be 3 characters of mine that I'll consider ruined by the change. Yes, ruined. I pick powers because they are fun, not because of the numbers behind them. I get a lot of use of the other three choices in the set. If I'd cared about being uber, I'd have taken body for focused accuracy like everyone else.
If nobody is taking these powers anyway, then add the new power as a 5th choice. At the very least, those that have them should be able to keep them until a respec. If the technology doesn't exist to allow it, then make it. Outright modifying a characters power lineup should never even be an option. When they changed taunt to a level 10 tanker power, existing tankers were allowed to keep it where it was until a respec was used... they can do it again.
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Don't get me wrong... I love my characters exactly as they are. My controller is a Grav/FF/Primal if that counts for anything. One of the APPs that I believe may have a change in its future.
Yes, I would be a bit miffed if any of his powers were going to change. However, I would suck it up, and deal... b/c I know that the power was changed with the intention of improving the game that I love more than any of my individual characters.
Also, the key part of me finding humor in the situation is: all of the changes are not announced yet. And, Beta has yet to happen, many things (even those that have been announced) could change.
i'd like to make a suggestion, Focused Accuracy doesn't fit within the theme of "Weapons Mastery" Instead maybe "Targeting Drone?"
Sabre Talon
LvL 50 Fire/kin Controller
LvL 50 Emp/Electric Defender
LvL 50 Spines/Regen Scrapper
LvL 50 Willpower/SS Tanker
LvL 50 Fire/Em Blaster
LvL 50 Cold/Ice Defender
LvL 50 Fire/Psy Dominator
LvL 50 Ice/Thermal Corruptor
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A). Patrons SUCK compared to hero epics- it's FACT.
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How it should be:
A) Many players think that PPPs suck when compared to Hero APPs.
Calling an opinion a FACT, is not a good way to present data.
1 + 1 is 2. It's FACT. 
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1 + 1 is 2. It's FACT.
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Don't be silly. 1+1=10.
I think the only APP powers I care about are the single target holds for scrappers and tankers. I could be wrong, but I don't expect those to go away. It would be nice to see brutes and stalkers get access to a decent single target ranged hold, but it would also be nice if villains didn't have to go through a story arc with a non-droppable elite boss fight to unlock their patron pools.
Currently, I don't use patron powers at all.
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[u]Topic: PvE Power Changes.[u]
[u]Patron Pools and APP[u]
1. They all got looked at by Posi, Castle, and minion. Datamined which ones were taken and which were ignored. Buffs, nerfs, and power replacements!
2. If powers are replaced, when you log in, you'll have the new power. No grandfathering.
3. About 20% of the A/EPPs were replaced.
4. As one example of the Epic/Patron changes, Castle mentions that Weapon Mastery for Scrappers will now include Focused Accuracy. If his memory is correct.
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Hmmm. No 'grandfathering'? I remember hearing that term, but I'll need a quick refresher course.
I wonder if this'll mean that if we don't like the replacements, we'll have to 'respec' them. Would be nice if this means we'll get a free 'spec with this update.
[/ QUOTE ]This means they are getting rid of caltrops and possibly conserver power just so they can sanitize ninjutsu and energy aura before being ported to scrappers. 
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Jesus Christ, they had better not take away my Caltrops on my scrapper- and a big [censored] WTF on Hero Epics changing?? What the hell prompted this?! It was the patrons that are the issue- the patrons freaking SUCK compared to the flexibility of the hero epics. Why change anything in the weapon mastery?? If Scrappers wanted focused accuracy then they take that Epic Pool.
What logic is going into changing Hero Epics?
And reading this seems like I log into my Scrapper after the change and find out his powers have been changed and taken away I'm gonna be hyper-pissed.
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The issue wasn't just that the PPPs were underpowered, but that a number of APPs were overpowered, especially since they were never designed with PvP in mind. Most reasonable people have predicted all along that when the issue was (eventually) addressed, both APPs and PPPs would get looked at.
EDIT: EPP changed to APP (old-school brain-fart).
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tangent: And you know controller fireball will be removed...
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Fine with me Fissure & Psionic Tornado are better powers in my book. 
I was not going to get involved in this, but this:
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Plenty of PvPers have complained Power Boost is too powerful.
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bothers me. Didn't we get word from a redname that they can now make powers perform differently in PvP? Why not just nerf Power Boost in PvP and leave it alone in PvE? Or am I mis-remembering this?
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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
English does not borrow from other languages. English follows other languages down dark alleys, hits them over the head, and rifles through their pockets for loose grammar.
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C). NO ONE wants powers taken away to be given powers they did not want. Serioulsy. Hundreds of complaints about Patrons v. Epics- no one said that they wanted powers actually taken away from them after the fact they choose them- they just want to be given more to choose from. Again, It's FACT.
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Actually, this is flat out wrong. There have always been posts/reqests saying "remove this power and add that one". You may not agree with them, but they've been around forever. Therefore, not a FACT, even though you used caps (I know, it must come as a shock that using ALL CAPS does not make your statements true...).
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I swear that if devs remove my Ghost Widow ST Hold where the target is turning around floating in the air, i will, i REALLY will kill a kitten!
Grrrr
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Not happening. Not only is it a popular, useful and powerful power, but it's a signature power for GW, so it's stying. You can retract the claws.
Yeah, the GW hold is definitely safe. And frankly, there are some flat out terrible, nigh-useless EPP powers as well that never get taken because there are ridiculously overpowered options to take instead. It should come as no surprise that some EPP powers are going the way of the dodo along with some PPP duds.
And just so long as they let me keep my Water Spout, nobody has to get stabbed. For the next couple minutes, at least.
Sorry if this has been addressed already - but I've been to the w00t site from 2 different pc's, and none of the links work. Can't even click on the login boxes. Other than setting to a trusted site, any suggestions ? Thanks.
**Damien**
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind." ~Dr. Seuss.
"Going to church doesn't make you a Christian any more than standing in a garage makes you a car. "
They really need to take the "ripping the band-aid off"-approach here with these power changes. Marketing's strategy of "dribbling out a bit at a time" is only going to make things worse, not better.
Release info on all of the power changes, PVE and PVP ASAP.
Let the forums screech like a monkey cage for a couple of weeks so by the time open beta rolls around people will have moved to the "Acceptance" phase.
Otherwise you have two months of "DOOOOM!" and nerfherding.
"Steady as a mountain, attack like fire, still as a wood, swift as the wind.
In heaven and earth I alone am to be revered."
- Motto on the war banner of Takeda Shingen (1521-1573)
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Thing is that the players that are sent in Beta dont seem to be the players that dont care about numbers, efficiency and stuff like that. So devs never get in Beta a real portrait of what players think overall. The elite min/maxer and hardcore testers are lightyears away of many other players when it comes about concept and fun. They are the players who invent speed KHTF and stupid stuff like that...
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Uhmmm... I can tell you as a fact that this is absolutely, positively, not the case. There are some crazy min/maxers there, just as there are on live, but knowing some of the beta testers very, very well, I can tell you that there are some that are more likely to make a "stupid concept build", that is wildly inefficient, but fun for them to play, than a min/max build. Which is the way it should be. Both "sides" should be represented, and are.
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i'd like to make a suggestion, Focused Accuracy doesn't fit within the theme of "Weapons Mastery" Instead maybe "Targeting Drone?"
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Good one. I'm still thinking that they'll probably drop Web Grenade for it.
Please realize that the following post is my personal opinion, base on observations I've made.
What I think of immediately upon thinking of potential incoming changes:
- Scrapper Weapon Mastery: as noted above, Web Grenade. Also Caltrops: with the potential, eventual proliferation of Ninjitsu from Stalkers, Caltrops would be redundant between a secondary and ancillary pool.
- Scrapper Body Mastery / Tanker Energy Mastery: Conserve Power has the same issues as Caltrops does above, in regards to the proliferation of Electric Armor and Energy Aura. Also, we know Focused Accuracy is getting spread out to at least Weapon Mastery, but it's also been reported as blatantly unbalanced; is there the potential to have the to-hit buff and endurance costs both reduced to manageable levels?
- Blaster Cold Mastery: Flash Freeze, maybe? Not sure.
- Defender Power Mastery: Power Build Up. We know how much Castle hates Power Boost. What's the over/under on this becoming plain ol' Build Up?
- Controller Power Mastery: Same here, with normal Power Boost.
- Patron Pools: the best thing they did in the Patron pools was the very limited variety they put in, in two instances: Dominators having Waterspout / Poisonous Ray instead of an end recovery power in Power Sink / Dark Consumption, and Stalkers having Waterspout instead of the sniper attacks all three other pools get. I would not be surprised if the most unpopular "cloned" powers in the various patron pools got swapped out to create some more diversity between said pools.
Something I don't see changing:
- Ranged attacks: the most popular power type seems to be the ST and AoE ranged attacks in the various pools. Perfect example: the shurikens in Weapon Mastery and LBE / Energy Torrent in Body Mastery.
@Shenalia
Triumph: Ion Force (SG)
Victory: Evil Triumphs (VG)
Proud member of the Triumphant Defenders Coalition.
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I for one welcome our power pool fixing overlords.
Seriously it's a good thing to not have Body pool on EVERY one of my scrappers. I can get away with another pool on my super strength tank (rage) but FA is too good not to be widely available on all melee toons. Give it to stalkers and brutes for parity. Do similar work with power boost/power build up. This is an across the board anti-nerf and I'm glad to see a major restructuring in the right direction.
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Its an overpowered power that it is available in one pool already but theres no need to spread it to every other pools.
And for the matter, like you said, if one single power is simply just so good that you cant live without it then maybe its time devs have a look at it.
The game is very playable without FA by the way. And its nice to have different choices. But we obviously arent playing the same game so ill stop right there...
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The counter-argument to this is that FA is so popular, that people don't take Weapon Mastery, just because they want (or feel they need) FA. Now, with FA available in WM, you may see more people picking powers from the WM pool. So now, those people have more choices.
I agree, btw, that outside of PvP, FA is not usually needed.
I will just chime in here and say that I see why the devs are doing the powers replacing/etc but I would also say that I would like to see new APPs/Villain Patron pools that have the 'old/useless' powers in them. I know I had a char. or two that I would have liked to take Weapon Mastery for the Caltrops/Shurikens, etc....but now that those powers may or may not be gone, just toss them in a new pool Maybe make them a regular power pool choice and not an epic power pool.
We all like more choices
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Patron Pools and APP
.
1. They all got looked at by Posi, Castle, and minion. Datamined which ones were taken and which were ignored. Buffs, nerfs, and power replacements!
.
2. If powers are replaced, when you log in, you'll have the new power. No grandfathering.
.
3. About 20% of the A/EPPs were replaced.
.
4. As one example of the Epic/Patron changes, Castle mentions that Weapon Mastery for Scrappers will now include Focused Accuracy. If his memory is correct.
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So why replace a power, unless it was really that broken (3vry1 must taek 1t 2 b 133t!) or that loathed or neglected by players (wait... you took what again?) ?
Why not instead make a power branch? Give a player a choice to take the old power (even if other changes diminish it), or take the shiny new power, but never be able to take both?
Does this also mean (and I know it's not an Epic or PPP) that since the advent of power replacements are now on the table, that Teleport Foe could go bye-bye and get replaced with something else for PvP reasons?
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They really need to take the "ripping the band-aid off"-approach here with these power changes. Marketing's strategy of "dribbling out a bit at a time" is only going to make things worse, not better.
Release info on all of the power changes, PVE and PVP ASAP.
Let the forums screech like a monkey cage for a couple of weeks so by the time open beta rolls around people will have moved to the "Acceptance" phase.
Otherwise you have two months of "DOOOOM!" and nerfherding.
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I could not agree more. They dangle carrots to the point that I am totally not excited anymore by the time stuff actually comes out.
Also, if my Blaster's Munitions Mastery set is changed in any way, I'm going to be murderous.
@Arwen Darkblade
Proud Member of Hammer of the Gods and Sanguine Syndicate
Arc ID #86194 "Cry Havoc"
Arc ID #103934 "Dr. Thomas' First Day"
[URL="http://tobyfife.blogspot.com/"]Hero Girl[/URL] - my geek culture blog
Caltrops going away? Is that the thinking here?
Damnit to hell! I was planning on getting that to go with burn on my Spines/fire.
Oh well.
BC 
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I don't need to wait till beta to know that outright replacement of chosen powers is bad design.
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It makes sense, if you're replacing powers because they're too powerful, grandfathering them in means older characters have a greater advantage than newer characters.
Arc #345863 - When The Bough Breaks
"Curse you Perry the Plata...wait, is that Love Handel?" - Dr. Heinz Doofenshmirtz, Phineas and Ferb