Discussion: Changes to Task/Strike Force Missions
By
Acid_Reign,
Posted on: 2008-02-14 15:00 in News, Events and Announcement Discussion
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Note that the ratio of inf granted here is exactly 1:2:6 going minion:lt:boss. Numbers this precise aren't accidental. There is a different multiplier for rewards based on enemy class when exemplared than when fighting at your native level.
Specifically, as a native level 50, the ratio for +2 minion:lt:boss inf awards is 3464:11878:37117, or a little closer to 1:3:10.
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Just a quick FYI on this: all testing has shown the minion:LT:boss XP ratios to be 1:2:6 for levels 45 and above.
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I knew those ratios looked familiar, but hadn't seen them in the context of inf awards before.
What seems to be happening is that the inf you receive when exemplaring is based on the xp ratio for your native level, rather than the inf you would receive at your native level, and as such is a reduction compared to what you would otherwise get at level 50. If nobody's tested by tonight, I'll see if that's the case at lower levels as well using a level 42 brute and a level 30 brute.
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Two quick questions: one, were you on teams for this, and if so, were they teams of the same size?
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I was solo for all testing, to avoid having to deal with the team modifier variables.
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And two, were they the same type of mobs each time? Not just minion, LT or boss, but the same types of minion, LT, or boss?
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I utilized Circle of Thorns whenever possible; there were only 2 levels where I didn't use them, because I couldn't identify a flashback arc that had them in it. In the 30-34 range, I used a Wailer mission and got the same minion/lt/boss values in every other range. In the 15-19 range I got a Lost mission, where the +2 minions were 4949 but the Anathema lt's have a modifier that's about +50%; in this range I just headed back to Sharkhead and street-hunted some +2 Arachnos to verify that mobs without a modifier were giving the exact same values. At least for minions and lieutenants, they were.
I did some testing hero-side with this as well, using my level 50 fire/fire tanker. Even-con mobs across multiple enemy groups and multiple levels to which I exemped were giving 2779 inf. I suspect that's the correct value to go in the last row of your table for minion xp at level 50 (it's currently 2800 and change, if I recall correctly), if your observation about the xp ratios being applied to the inf awards above is correct.
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I'm going to check this out when I get a chance.
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Thanks. You're one of the people I specifically hoped would end up looking at this, given all the great work you did on the xp charts across levels.
My postings to this forum are not to be used as data in any research study without my express written consent.
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So, it has been well established that the [exploit fix secrecy] policy is in place.
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Fair enough. But valid questions remain.
How beneficial is the policy? The policy is only as useful as the devs' ability to define and discern a "secret exploit fix" as something separate and distinct from "fixes for tricks everyone already knows about", as well as from "changes that will impact legitimate play just as hard as exploits." If softloading is an exploit, what is duoing Positron when the rest of the crappy newbie PuG logs out for the day, assuming that also quits the task force? Without careful definitions and distinctions, and the ability to recognize when distinctions are too fine to be made, the policy boils down to an excuse to arbitrarily forget about patch notes for nearly any possible change.
On second thought, I better stop myself. Since the official line is "oops, we forgot," this whole tangent is a moot point. If the devs' intent was to put this in the patch notes -- that is, to open it up to player feedback -- then they should have done so before it went live and impacted TF accessibility for softloaders and non-softloaders alike.
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The reason these items were not included in the Training Room testing notes, is that try not to call attention to exploits.
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Yes, and when they are changing a game mechanic that affects people who play the game normally, that policy needs to change. It needed to change for the Rikti Portal change, and it sure as hell needed to change for this. If this had been in the patch notes, the issue of the Shard TFs requiring 8 would have been raised in testing, where either this change could have been adjusted or the minimums could have been adjusted.
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Don't get me wrong, I really don't like the policy either. We were asked if it was a policy, I was just giving the poster the references to it.
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If there was going to be another patch before I12, I'd suggest some tweaks to TF/SF minimums and some tweaks to this change to make it workable. But since Rage's further changes had to be abandoned to work on I12, this change needs to be reverted. The side effects are just too bad to live with them until I12 goes live.
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Agreed, at least until they fix the other related balance issues caused by this "fix".
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
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Guys, we need to figure out a way to exploit the game that involves the RSF tech, toggle debuffs, vill patrons, other QoL issues, and anything else we feel needs to be fixed, then people need to complain about how they relate to RMT, THEN they might get fixed.
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Well I know first hand how bad this change is, last night we had a defender to go afk on the Sara Moore TF (gawd this chick looks throwed away like some homeless person, devs please give her better clothing and hairstyle). Needless to say the defender got logged off due to the afk timer. It was a [censored] having to deal with that extra set of mobs from someone. Our other defender had a family emergency but prior to this announcement I had explained about the recent change to tfs when I realized the first defender wasnt coming back. I think had I not said that he probably would have left too. If he is reading this I want to thank you for sticking it out eventhough you had an emergency. I will say this after this change I will be staying the hell out of the shadow shard. It is just not worth my time anymore.
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
The afk timer doesn't work on TFs.
The person logged themselves off.
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
The uber-condensed version of the point I made a few days ago, that I feel is worth repeating lest it be missed by rednames scanning for a change idea:
If you feel something is wrong with soft-spawning Cap SFs and/or STF's/RSF's, then do as you did with Katie TFs and examine each on an individual basis. Please do not make sweeping changes that have unintended effects, including the restriction of gameplay (no more groups of 3-4 casual players trying to run a Manticore TF together late at night -- large teams are no longer an option for people who want them, but now a virtual requirement for anyone), the agonizing extension of TFs (have fun with Positron and Quarterfield), and the assistance provided to farmers, which I thought this change was supposed to "hurt" (I've already seen some farming friends load up Statesman TF missions #3 or 4 for infinitely 8-player spawned farming).
Or in tl;dr metaphor-speak: If you're having problems with a military base, invade the base. Don't carpet bomb the entire country.
I watched Taxibot Belle run a Positron task force just yesterday. It took just under five hours, and everyone seemed to enjoy it just fine.
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no more groups of 3-4 casual players...
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*sigh...* Task Forces are not "casual" activities. Read the manual for a description of what they're supposed to be.
Or in tl;dr metaphor-speak: If you're having trouble finishing task forces as they were originally designed to work, look for better teammates. Don't ask for exploits to be reintroduced to the game.
We've been saving Paragon City for eight and a half years. It's time to do it one more time.
(If you love this game as much as I do, please read that post.)
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Or in tl;dr metaphor-speak: If you're having trouble finishing task forces as they were originally designed to work, look for better teammates. Don't ask for exploits to be reintroduced to the game.
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/signed.
Except- Katie still takes 20 minutes and many other TFs can still be afk'd .
The problem is those are power gamer numbers. Most (I'd guess 4/5) players will strugle with light TF teams. If they make the TFs hard enough to challenge the top players, many will be unable to do them at all.
Infinity and Victory mostly
dUmb, etc.
lolz PvP anymore, Market PvP for fun and profit
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The afk timer doesn't work on TFs.
The person logged themselves off.
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REALLY!!! NOW I AM PISSED, I AM GOING TO PUT THAT DEFENDER ON IGNORE!!! 
Thanks for telling me this.
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
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*sigh...* Task Forces are not "casual" activities. Read the manual for a description of what they're supposed to be.
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While you're reading the manual, remember to brush up on essential game facts, like not being able to use Temp Invulnerability and (self-rooting) Unyielding at the same time, the maximum level cap of 40, and Eden, the most dangerous zone in the whole game so zomg take a team.
Need I mention Task Forces were not even working at the time of this manual's printing?
Manual thumping is bad enough, even when it's not for the purpose of alienating the even vaster majority of players who are too "casual" for the new and improved Dr. Quaterfield Task Force.
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If you're having trouble finishing task forces as they were originally designed to work, look for better teammates. Don't ask for exploits to be reintroduced to the game.
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Smaller spawns on the Dr. Q TF because one defender logged and the other had a family emergency is not an exploit by any definition. Also, shenanigans on the assumption that better teammates exist, can be found in a timely manner, and are willing and able to help until the very end.
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Or in tl;dr metaphor-speak: If you're having trouble finishing task forces as they were originally designed to work, look for better teammates. Don't ask for exploits to be reintroduced to the game.
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/signed.
Except- Katie still takes 20 minutes and many other TFs can still be afk'd .
The problem is those are power gamer numbers. Most (I'd guess 4/5) players will strugle with light TF teams. If they make the TFs hard enough to challenge the top players, many will be unable to do them at all.
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Power gamers = more than one acct. So it is actually in the best interest of "customer service" to take their opinions into consideration as well.
The change was ill thought out with regards to casual players, pvpers, power gamers, and the economy. Roll it back, allow the players to actually test it out, then IF NECESSARY make your changes. I won't even comment on the bs excuse that it was done for "RMT Farmers" because its not worth even responding to. Posts way up there have more than shown that this change only benefits RMT farming (and for those of you that loathe farming in and of itself, it aids farming too).
The way this was done, and the way it has been handled so far (meaning STILL no response from a dev, and Lighthouse's repsonse was incorrect....) is ridiculous.
Thanks, NC Soft, for closing my favorite game ever without warning and with plenty of life still left in it, and thus relieving me of the burden of EVER wanting to buy, try or even hear about another game from your company. Will my decision make a dent, or persuade them in anyway, shape or form? Nope, obviously not. Don't care. NC Soft is dead to me. ~ PsyFox
Anyone wanna take Bets on when Positron's gonna make a blurb or statement about this? I'm betting we won't see him at all even though he was obviously the one who made the call. Gawd I love it when that Power-Gamer shirks responsibility ...He finally caves to the Casual Gamers' overwhelming demands for fixing the 30-40 grind and wins some huge brownie points with this community, and then flips around and pulls this Epic-Fail "Fix" in the same patch. HUGE Lolz, son.
BtW, if anyone wants to know his thoughts on the matter, just go read the Market Forum. Those 1337 100t "flippers" are all cut from the same stone he was. The more these recipes cost, the bigger their E-dilz get, and the happier they are. That's Positron's "Fan Base" and the only justification he needs for being a total Miser.
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no more groups of 3-4 casual players...
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*sigh...* Task Forces are not "casual" activities. Read the manual for a description of what they're supposed to be.
Or in tl;dr metaphor-speak: If you're having trouble finishing task forces as they were originally designed to work, look for better teammates. Don't ask for exploits to be reintroduced to the game.
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That is the dumbest thing I have read in this thread.
SOFTLOADING was the exploit. The devs implemented a "blanket fix" to keep people from softloading which REMOVED an important Quality of Life feature! The ability for mobs to scale down to the current level of the team if you lose members. That is NOT an exploit! It is an important QoL feature which the devs have just snubbed their noses at because we should play the game "the way they think is best".
If your on a TF set for 8 and lose 4 people, you are NOW still fighting mobs sets for 8. Is that an exploit? Was it in the manual?
Is it very easy to find 7 other people for a TF such as Dr. Quarterfield, even BEFORE this change? Is that an exploit? Was it in the manual?
If you do find 7 other people, even despite their best intentions, things do happen. A person can't always sit in front of a computer for 8 hours at a time. Even on a weekend. Is that an exploit? Was it in the manual?
I nominate this as one of the worst posts of the year. What you said was just as insensitive as what the devs have said by "this is the way we meant for TF's to be played"
Do you realize that alot of people play this game BECAUSE its very easy to hop in, get something done, and hop out? That is a MAJOR selling point compared to games like WoW where some of the high level raids CAN take all day, and alot of people JUST CAN'T DO THAT. As much as some of us may try to avoid it, or deny it....there is this thing called "Real Life" and sometimes is DOES interfere with our game time. Is that an exploit? It that in the manual?
The devs have snubbed their noses at a large part of their "casual" player base with the change, and you just did too. Do you realize how many people who play this game are parents? People who have multiple kids?
So by what your saying, if your just a "casual" player, or are not 100% sure you can devote the required time block to something, even tho there are rewards for TF's, you should just not even try to do them, right? Leave the TF's for the hardcore players, is that it? Was THAT in the manual?
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Anyone wanna take Bets on when Positron's gonna make a blurb or statement about this? I'm betting we won't see him at all even though he was obviously the one who made the call. Gawd I love it when that Power-Gamer shirks responsibility ...He finally caves to the Casual Gamers' overwhelming demands for fixing the 30-40 grind and wins some huge brownie points with this community, and then flips around and pulls this Epic-Fail "Fix" in the same patch. HUGE Lolz, son.
BtW, if anyone wants to know his thoughts on the matter, just go read the Market Forum. Those 1337 100t "flippers" are all cut from the same stone he was. The more these recipes cost, the bigger their E-dilz get, and the happier they are. That's Positron's "Fan Base" and the only justification he needs for being a total Miser.
[/ QUOTE ]if positron knows what is good for him then he needs to not touch this thread with a 1000 foot pole. I dont see how any answer he gives will be acceptable at this point.
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
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Anyone wanna take Bets on when Positron's gonna make a blurb or statement about this? I'm betting we won't see him at all even though he was obviously the one who made the call. Gawd I love it when that Power-Gamer shirks responsibility ...He finally caves to the Casual Gamers' overwhelming demands for fixing the 30-40 grind and wins some huge brownie points with this community, and then flips around and pulls this Epic-Fail "Fix" in the same patch. HUGE Lolz, son.
BtW, if anyone wants to know his thoughts on the matter, just go read the Market Forum. Those 1337 100t "flippers" are all cut from the same stone he was. The more these recipes cost, the bigger their E-dilz get, and the happier they are. That's Positron's "Fan Base" and the only justification he needs for being a total Miser.
[/ QUOTE ]if positron knows what is good for him then he needs to not touch this thread with a 1000 foot pole. I dont see how any answer he gives will be acceptable at this point.
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Yeah fingers in the ears and the "la la la" chant in regards to this, after all we swallowed ED
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I watched Taxibot Belle run a Positron task force just yesterday. It took just under five hours, and everyone seemed to enjoy it just fine.
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no more groups of 3-4 casual players...
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*sigh...* Task Forces are not "casual" activities. Read the manual for a description of what they're supposed to be.
Or in tl;dr metaphor-speak: If you're having trouble finishing task forces as they were originally designed to work, look for better teammates. Don't ask for exploits to be reintroduced to the game.
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Thats 1. I guess that shows us.
Too small a sample size to be valid.
Lots of 50's yada yada. still finding fun things to do.
Cthulhu loves you, better start running
I�! I�! Gg�gorsch�a�bha egurtsa�ar�ug d� Dalhor! Cthluhu fthagn! Cthluhu fthagn!
You are in a maze of twisty little passages
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Anyone wanna take Bets on when Positron's gonna make a blurb or statement about this? I'm betting we won't see him at all even though he was obviously the one who made the call. Gawd I love it when that Power-Gamer shirks responsibility ...He finally caves to the Casual Gamers' overwhelming demands for fixing the 30-40 grind and wins some huge brownie points with this community, and then flips around and pulls this Epic-Fail "Fix" in the same patch. HUGE Lolz, son.
BtW, if anyone wants to know his thoughts on the matter, just go read the Market Forum. Those 1337 100t "flippers" are all cut from the same stone he was. The more these recipes cost, the bigger their E-dilz get, and the happier they are. That's Positron's "Fan Base" and the only justification he needs for being a total Miser.
[/ QUOTE ]if positron knows what is good for him then he needs to not touch this thread with a 1000 foot pole. I dont see how any answer he gives will be acceptable at this point.
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Yeah fingers in the ears and the "la la la" chant in regards to this, after all we swallowed ED
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I'd love to see a dev response...sooner rather than later. IMO, there's only one accpetable response from him and it is:
"Sorry about the patch notes, we are rolling this change back to actually TEST it on the Test Server."
I'd be happy with something along those lines.
I just think the longer they wait to respond, the more annoyed everyone gets - on all sides of the issues.
Thanks, NC Soft, for closing my favorite game ever without warning and with plenty of life still left in it, and thus relieving me of the burden of EVER wanting to buy, try or even hear about another game from your company. Will my decision make a dent, or persuade them in anyway, shape or form? Nope, obviously not. Don't care. NC Soft is dead to me. ~ PsyFox
OK...Here's an example of why this is a bad idea. Running Numina with 3 SG mates. That's the minimum required to run the TF (4). 1 (50) exemped Spines/Regen, 1 (38) Ill/Rad, 1 (37) Fire/Devices, and 1 (38) Grav/Kin. Not even a gimped team right?
Well we have been unable to kill Jurassik. The scrapper can't hold aggro after the Blaster open's up, the Ill/Rad is getting beat around for debuffs, heck the Grav/Kin is getting killed just for throwing heals.
Normally we would have set this mission for 1 and finished it, no harm no foul. NOW due to the fact that we don't have a Tanker to hold aggro we may not be able to finish this.
No we aren't gimps, optimal builds all the way around, sound tactics and all have been playing for 2 years or more. Hell we just beat this with 3 players last weekend and that WAS a gimp team.
Looks like we are back to the days of the "must have" team make-up again. Tanks will now be a must no matter what and the rest of us will have to suffer with unwanted additions and PUGs.
Once again, someones "vision" of what my play should be like. Love the way I pay for the game and the DEVs continue the change things that have been common place since day one.
Making players bitter and not wanting to even log in is not a way to keep a game going.
Oh, and for you n00bs (yes I am calling you n00bs), this has been a way to do TFs since release, and calling it an exploit is BS. I think 4 years of play is enough to show that this was never an issue until they added the economy.
Let's review...
1. PvP...170+ nerfs to the PvE side of the game and less than 10% of the population PvP.
2. Adding an economy to a game that never had one...INF farmers and their spam mail(which BTW can't be stopped at all)
3. DEVs making changes to attempt to stop INF farmers (not going to work, but go ahead and ruin the game trying). All you are doing is making other games more attractive to players.
Well there you go...We've come full circle...Just wondering, with this change "being forgotten", is Jack in charge again. Now that Marvel Universe is history, he is available again...
BALANCE IS A NERF
Liberty Server
@Energy Aura and @Ill Conceived on Global
Han Solo: [laughs] Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good BLASTER at your side, kid.
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OK...Here's an example of why this is a bad idea. Running Numina with 3 SG mates. That's the minimum required to run the TF (4). 1 (50) exemped Spines/Regen, 1 (38) Ill/Rad, 1 (37) Fire/Devices, and 1 (38) Grav/Kin. Not even a gimped team right?
Well we have been unable to kill Jurassik. The scrapper can't hold aggro after the Blaster open's up, the Ill/Rad is getting beat around for debuffs, heck the Grav/Kin is getting killed just for throwing heals.
Normally we would have set this mission for 1 and finished it, no harm no foul. NOW due to the fact that we don't have a Tanker to hold aggro we may not be able to finish this.
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Well that rant was all over the place. 
I am not understanding how not being able to beat the AV/Monster at the end of a TF has anything to do with the issue at hand.
With that team you should be able to cruise through the spawns and Jurrassik shouldn't have given you to much problems.
Were you guys on invincible?
~MR
AE Arc: 305214 Blood Diamonds (Villainous)
Unleashed/Unchained/B.O.S.S.
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I'd love to see a dev response...sooner rather than later. IMO, there's only one accpetable response from him and it is:
"Sorry about the patch notes, we are rolling this change back to actually TEST it on the Test Server."
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Oh... I disagree on both accounts 
For Starters, he could also write something like this: === "Our full plan is to address some of the Disparity in the Drop-Pools and this change is part of a broader strategy to discourage the farming of those pools. TF & SF Rewards should better reflect actual Demand in a later Patch".
But he won't b/c he likes keeping Huge timesinks around.
IE: We don't want his honest response, we only want the caving-In response we'd like to hear instead
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Spawns in Task Forces, Strike Forces and Trials will now spawn enemies for at least the minimum size required to start the Task Force, Strike Force or Trial.
For example, if a Task Force requires 4 players to start and a team of 8 start the Taskforce, the spawns will spawn for a team size of 8. If 4 players drop out of this Task Force leaving only 4 players left in the team, the spawns will adjust to a team size of 4. If 2 more players leave the Task Force leaving only 2 players, the spawns will remain at a team size of 4, since that is the minimum size required to start the Task Force.
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Didn't read the rest, so forgive my revisting whatever points have already been made. Well, now that I understand the change that was made ... Light, I don't really see why this would be a good idea.
You know how the champion farmers operate, right? These are people with builds so strong (most commonly pimped-out F/Ks, dunno what they use on the vil side) that they can have friends or volunteers temporarily join the team while they intentionally spawn the whole map for a larger-sized team. They thank the padders, who drop while the smaller team stays inside and divides the xp/inf from the bigger spawns. With that in mind, I don't know what you're trying to accomplish.
Is someone in a conniption because TFs are supposed to be a big social activity, but some people are able to run and finish them with fewer characters than the anticipated minimum team size? If so, big deal. Since Issue 9 you've repeatedly given us inventions that make that sort of thing more feasible, for which I'm personally grateful. We have some pretty great temp powers that are fun and useful. Some builds are stronger than others. Some players are better than others. So what?
During my December vacation, I was online during the day quite a bit. I had finished my new scrap, and I wanted to get Task Force Commander on him. To expedite it, I enlisted a Kin Defender friend, who duoed Positron and Synapse with me. We used a volunteer padder or two to start them, then happily finished each one in about two hours. Precisely why should I be more obligated to drag along puggers, or less able to do this sort of thing because I can't find enough people interested in running the TF at that particular time? My volunteer padders couldn't commit two hours of their time, so I should be out of luck?
You can not mandate social activity, Light. You can encourage it, and/or reward it, but you can't require it. In the absence of knowing the "real reason," I can only regard this change as a mistake.
Please try MA arc ID 351455, "Shard Stories: Scavenger's Hunt." Originally created for the Dr. Aeon contest, it explores the wild potential of one of the City's most concept-rich but content-poor settings: the Shadow Shard.
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Do you realize that alot of people play this game BECAUSE its very easy to hop in, get something done, and hop out? That is a MAJOR selling point compared to games like WoW where some of the high level raids CAN take all day, and alot of people JUST CAN'T DO THAT. As much as some of us may try to avoid it, or deny it....there is this thing called "Real Life" and sometimes is DOES interfere with our game time. Is that an exploit? It that in the manual?
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Amen to that. Power gamers with multiple accounts may make this company a chunk of change but I bet their are way more casual; players with families than twinkie min max dweebs. We pay 15 bucks a month too and their are a lot of us. We are also fairly loyal and don't cancel our subscription every time a new game comes out. Devs listen to us we are playing this game because it is casual friendly. If we wanted to play a Hardcore game we would all be playing EQ or WoW or some other pointy ear fest.
Master Gabriel
"Pointy ear Fest" wasn't very nice. We can have pointy ears here too.
Still waiting for a Dev statement in the thread.... not a community relations one. We want Captain Stubbing not cruise coordinator Julie or I saac the bartender.
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Hmm, this won't help much with the Shadow Shard TFs, since on some of those you could knock out some of the missions without the team there. It's tough to get 8 people on at one time for the duration of a few of those.
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Please can the minimum team size of the Shard TF's in particular be examined.
An adjustment to 6 should be at least seriously considered.
Manticore should also be tweaked down from 7 to 6.
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Agreed. This really is more of a hardship for those Shadow Shard TF's especially Quarterfield, which is WAY too long and it's very difficult to get 8 people to commit that much time. I know I've helped teams get these TF's started, and when the "help us get it going" warm bodies left the TF, the remaining team had 4-6 players.
Making an 8 team requirement is fine on shorter Task Forces, but the marathons really should allow smaller teams without any sort of penalty.
~Missi
http://tinyurl.com/yhy333s
Miss Informed in 2016! She can't be worse than all those other guys!