Discussion: Changes to Task/Strike Force Missions
By
Acid_Reign,
Posted on: 2008-02-14 15:00 in News, Events and Announcement Discussion
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Ok, now to reply to Lady, altho Tremere has NO clue what he's talking about. Sigh.
Ok. I think to let people choose the EXACT recipe they want would probably not be to good of a thing (the market would all of a sudden be flooded with LotG's, Numina's, and Miracles) I have a slightly different way to rearrange it.
REMOVE the Single-Origin rewards. They're pointless. Replace them with recipe categories. Melee, Ranged, PBAoE, Dam Res, Def, etc..... So even if you get a recipe that doesn't sell for to much, it's still from a set you can use, hopefully.
And also it keeps things partially random so one recipes value on the market doesn't fluctuate to much, hopefully.
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I like this suggestion. Coupling this with moving several of the generally unwanted recipes from Pool C and putting them into, say, Pool A would be an improvement over the current system and would not cause any big issues that I can see.
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Do you seriously not see how a farmer could start a TF set at a minimum of 8 members, and then run the mission ad nauseum as a farm? The "fillers" don't even need to be there. All the farmer needs is one other (an alt account) to stay in the TF.
How does that not benefit farmers?
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Its going to benefit those people who want to get lots of inf and salvage drops by fighting large mobs. Granted they need to fight enemies that drop arcane to maximize salvage value. So thier choices of TFs are limited by that factor and they want to run thier farms with thier best true powers so lv restrictions will narrow that down a bit as well.
I would wager that most hero side farmers will feel more comfortable running thier Fire/Kins at lv 50 to have access to Fireball. Since thats the FoTM build right now thats the example ima use.
I have no doubt that people will still use TFs to farm for inf and drops with this change but it won't be the rampant scourge that we are being told it will be.
This change will not benefit RMTers who offer PL services at all so thats a whole other group of farmers. They will stick to thier family and behemoth farms.
At least thats how I see it.
~MR
AE Arc: 305214 Blood Diamonds (Villainous)
Unleashed/Unchained/B.O.S.S.
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Ok, now to reply to Lady, altho Tremere has NO clue what he's talking about. Sigh.
Ok. I think to let people choose the EXACT recipe they want would probably not be to good of a thing (the market would all of a sudden be flooded with LotG's, Numina's, and Miracles) I have a slightly different way to rearrange it.
REMOVE the Single-Origin rewards. They're pointless. Replace them with recipe categories. Melee, Ranged, PBAoE, Dam Res, Def, etc..... So even if you get a recipe that doesn't sell for to much, it's still from a set you can use, hopefully.
And also it keeps things partially random so one recipes value on the market doesn't fluctuate to much, hopefully.
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I like this suggestion. Coupling this with moving several of the generally unwanted recipes from Pool C and putting them into, say, Pool A would be an improvement over the current system and would not cause any big issues that I can see.
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If they were going to implement this in some form. This is the way I would like to see it.
1st of all you would not remove any pool c recipes. You would leave them the way they are.
Upon TF/SF completion you would get a choice between these 3 categories Mez, Buff/Debuff, and Damage.
Mez would include all pool C recipes from the following
Confuse
Fear
Hold
Immobilize
Knockback
Sleep
Slow
Taunt
Stun
Buff/Debuff would include all the pool C recipes from the following
Defense
Defense Debuff
Resitance
End Mod
Flight
Heal
Leaping
Running
To Hit Buff
To Hit Debuff
Teleport
Damage would include all the pool C recipes from the following
Melee Damage
PBAOE Damage
Pet Damage
Range Damage
Sniper
Targeted AOE
This way your not gaurenteed a more sought after recipe but you have a higher chance of getting it.
What does everyone else think of this idea?
~MR
AE Arc: 305214 Blood Diamonds (Villainous)
Unleashed/Unchained/B.O.S.S.
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Time to address the original post, I think.
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Such missions have always been intended to be group activities, hence the reason for the minimum group size requirement to start them.
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There are many ways to incentivise group activity. The above is a negative way. 'You cannot do this unless you have a group of at least size X.' A positive way would be 'If you have a group of at least size X, the rewards are better' or 'This challenge is so hard that you ought to bring a group of at least size X to deal with it.'
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First you state that the following is the result of this change & its negative:
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You cannot do this unless you have a group of at least size X.
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Um Huh?
Thats not at all what this change says or does!!! Nowhere does it state that if you start a TF that requires 8 members to start that if someone should quit and you are left with 7 members, that the resulting challenge is uncompletable. It simply does not state that nor is it implied. Will the TF be more challenging, absolutely. But has the TF become uncompleteable. Nope, it sure hasnt. Now granted if the numbers of the team drop to 4 on a TF designed for 8, then yes it may become too much of a challenge. However, as Lighthouse tried to point out, this is why its a TEAM ACTIVITY. You shouldnt approach a TF which requires 8 members (as noted by the NPC who gives the TF) lightly. Attempting to complete that TF with a PUG of ppl you dont know is already asking for trouble. Luckily, the # of TFs which require an 8 man team to start is rather small and I suspect that it is already being addressed internally.
Secondly, you state that they should have worded it in a positive manor such as
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'If you have a group of at least size X, the rewards are better
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This is simply NOT true. The TF completion bonuses are not greater if a smaller team completes the task. Now if you are talking about larger spawns = more infl.... um isnt that what ppl Padding mishs was already doing?!? This changes nothing.
Then you state this option:
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This challenge is so hard that you ought to bring a group of at least size X to deal with it.'
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Change that 'OUGHT TO' to 'MUST' & you have essentially what the NPCS already tell you when you agree to form a TF. I repeat, this changes nothing.
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No where in the text at the beguinning of a tf does it say that the tf will spawn at max level. this change needs to be accompanied by a resumption of the spawns being in accordance with player levels
Lots of 50's yada yada. still finding fun things to do.
Cthulhu loves you, better start running
I�! I�! Gg�gorsch�a�bha egurtsa�ar�ug d� Dalhor! Cthluhu fthagn! Cthluhu fthagn!
You are in a maze of twisty little passages
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The rewards of a TF, the length of various TFs, and the team size requirements of those TFs should all be addressed elsewhere.
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Absolutely not!
They are tied so closely to this change that to put this change in place without fixing these issues means that this fix is broken.
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You mean like sending I11 live with Purples Set Bonuses not working when exemping & not being fixed for 3 months later.... you mean like sending I11 live with the End Mod Sets not working & not being fixed for 3 months later...
etc
etc
etc
etc
etc
This is the nature of the industry. Expect it
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This problem is much larger. And that attitude is just poor quality control. No new content should have been released without atleast some of the nagging problems being addressed. Ive been on most of the weekend and the number of TF's has dropped considerably. RWZ is a ghost town. These are the kind of issues that can break a game community. If enough people get disgusted with seeing nerfs now and fizes "soon" start trying other games, we could see a drastice change in player base. I like this game too much to want to see that happen. A dev posting that a revamp of TF's is beguinning would address a lot of this. But that seems to be too dificult for our dev team.
Lots of 50's yada yada. still finding fun things to do.
Cthulhu loves you, better start running
I�! I�! Gg�gorsch�a�bha egurtsa�ar�ug d� Dalhor! Cthluhu fthagn! Cthluhu fthagn!
You are in a maze of twisty little passages
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I'm not going to assume that at all. Since those requests for tf changes were requested a long time ago.
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Huh?
We already know that TF changes are in the works. Thats a Red Name stated fact.
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So is a fix for COP.
wanna buy a bridge??
Lots of 50's yada yada. still finding fun things to do.
Cthulhu loves you, better start running
I�! I�! Gg�gorsch�a�bha egurtsa�ar�ug d� Dalhor! Cthluhu fthagn! Cthluhu fthagn!
You are in a maze of twisty little passages
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Heck check the thread... I've said several times that I'd be surprised if the Devs werent already addressing some of the TF inconsistencies & nuances internally. I'd be surprised in fact if I12 doesnt address numerous TF problems (such as the absurdity of the Shard TFs).
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Then those changes needed to be pushed out first. Would it be acceptable for them to do work on the login server that'd speed up logins, but in the meantime 1/10th the people in the game just couldn't login for a while? That's just crazy. Do it right or don't do it. It's as bad as the rage changes.
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So is a fix for COP.
wanna buy a bridge??
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If you are referring to IoP...then QFT my brother.
All I can say is thank you. Thank you for ignoring us in Closed test when people cried foul over the concept of the market we have in place now. The IOs are nice, fun, and add something new. But many found the economy a mess and were quickly singled out as "trolling" the forums, or whatever. When we said it is gonna look like the mess in WoW in a few months, year or so, we were labeled as DOOM-sayers.
Now where are we? I can't email SG/Coalie mates and get replies at the low levels. I have to spend 25K on a "common" salvage and sell a "rare" salvage for 500 influence. Tech salvage is a joke in Heroes, purely imbalanced in supply and demand. Tech drops everywhere but magic is needed for the main bulk of recipes. CoV isn't far behind in this imbalance.
The list goes on, the spammers, the uber imbalance in some builds for pvp now, etc. All from IOs, but mainly, from the market where you get these IOs from.
And now TF/SFs are on the nerf train to Snafuville for the casual PUGs in this MMO life.
All from the economy. Just trace it all back to the heart of the problem.
Thanks.
Put caps on prices in the market and things all calm down.
Until then, here is to 45 mil to buy a recipe that requires 25 mil in salvage, or 65 mil to buy crafted (oo a bargain). We have now captured American economy in our MMO. WooT. And LoL, the recent change to TFs helps that influence peddler get more influence quicker, while the recipes will become even MORE rare if all the "doom-sayers" drop off from TF/SFs as this thread implies.
Fix the economy, not break the rest of the game that is suffering from it.
"Oh NO! I'm so sorry baba! you and your wife will be sorely missed...s#@!, i did it again, didn't I?" - mintmiki
Animal Farm ID:71800
When Alts Collide: 134432
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You mean like sending I11 live with Purples Set Bonuses not working when exemping & not being fixed for 3 months later.... you mean like sending I11 live with the End Mod Sets not working & not being fixed for 3 months later...
etc
etc
etc
etc
etc
This is the nature of the industry. Expect it
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No. I expect better. Warcraft does FAR better with having functional patches. If they want to keep getting paid, they need to start having patches not break things.
They also need to implement testing on the test server so I don't have to grind out how much time to get the end mod sets to test them. They need to be available for testing, not require us to invest hours to find them to test.
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Just because its not immediate, which is what you want, makes it wrong?!? No, just no. If its in the pipes, then its perfectly acceptable.
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54 pages says otherwise. Not acceptable. It'd be like sending rage live on the previous 0 recovery version. "We'll fix it soon" is not exactly reassuring when things like Robosurgery have been broken for over a year.
You fix it right to start with, or you don't apply it at all.
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And all were proving false.
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Oh I've read this thread...
And I countered every claim made by those in this thread that this change would benefit farmers.
No, this change will NOT.
But again I ask... please provide details stating how it will... so I can once again shoot it down.
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Where's that link again, btw?
Until you've got that all your claims are pretty much worth nothing.
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Ok, now to reply to Lady, altho Tremere has NO clue what he's talking about. Sigh.
Ok. I think to let people choose the EXACT recipe they want would probably not be to good of a thing (the market would all of a sudden be flooded with LotG's, Numina's, and Miracles) I have a slightly different way to rearrange it.
REMOVE the Single-Origin rewards. They're pointless. Replace them with recipe categories. Melee, Ranged, PBAoE, Dam Res, Def, etc..... So even if you get a recipe that doesn't sell for to much, it's still from a set you can use, hopefully.
And also it keeps things partially random so one recipes value on the market doesn't fluctuate to much, hopefully.
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I like this suggestion. Coupling this with moving several of the generally unwanted recipes from Pool C [u]and putting them into Pool B would be an improvement[u] over the current system and would not cause any big issues that I can see.
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Also /Q'ing.F.T.
...Though I worry making those selections drop ONLY Pool-C's would be too "gameable", so they'd also need the Pool-A rares mixed in to ensure those drop pools are still large enough to keep the Odds interesting
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(Honestly) Not to be rude...but...
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Thanks in advance for your understanding and for your continued support.
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Don't thank in advance for that which will never be there...
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Srsly. I just don't understand the devs mindset here. It seems that any other type of farming is A-Ok, as LONG as its not recipe farming. what da hell?
[censored] they, ENCOURAGED farming with the Purples, and now this is a wet dream to RMT farmers.
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Ah, but there is ANOTHER undocumented change that was incorporated at the same time, to deal with the RMT inf gain possibilities of this.
There was a stealth nerf to the amount of inf granted while exemplared.
Specifically, when exemplared, minions are currently worth 75% of what they were worth prior to this change and the xp curve smoothing. Lieutenants are worth around 68%. I don't have the multipliers for bosses.
I don't need them, though, since when exemplared (as for a task force/strike force), my level 50 receives LESS inf for a lieutenant or boss than would be received for a comparable-conning lt or boss at my native level.
Let me put some hard numbers to this.
During double xp weekend, I exemplared my brute to run a level 45 arc through Ouroboros. I received 13,200 inf per +2 minion killed (I have a screenshot to document). Since inf was being doubled, the base value was 6600.
I ran the same arc today, same difficulty, etc. I received 4949 inf per +2 minion killed. This value (4949) is the same that I received for a +2 minion when malefactoring to 39, 34, 29, 24, and 19. It is also 75% of the 6600 that was the base prior to the smoothing.
+2 lieutenants, prior to the smoothing? Well, double xp value was 29,036, so half of that is 14,518. +2 lieutenants today while exemplaring: 9898.
+2 bosses today while exemplaring: 29,694.
Note that the ratio of inf granted here is exactly 1:2:6 going minion:lt:boss. Numbers this precise aren't accidental. There is a different multiplier for rewards based on enemy class when exemplared than when fighting at your native level.
Specifically, as a native level 50, the ratio for +2 minion:lt:boss inf awards is 3464:11878:37117, or a little closer to 1:3:10.
Folks are welcome to test this out for themselves and expand on it. The only place I can see possibly being wrong on this is if the 13,200 for a +2 minion during double xp was actually due to a bug that was more than doubling inf awards. I simply don't have a screenie that includes rewards while exemplared from any other play session to check it against.
It is possible that what I've identified is a bug in the system. But it also seems very much like exactly the kind of adjustment to exemplaring that would be made if the devs were concerned about people solo-farming TF missions set for 6-8.
I'd love to get some numbers from other folks. Right now it looks like while we were getting an across-the-board increase in xp/inf at our native levels, we actually got a DECREASE in inf while exemplared.
My postings to this forum are not to be used as data in any research study without my express written consent.
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Do you seriously not see how a farmer could start a TF set at a minimum of 8 members, and then run the mission ad nauseum as a farm? The "fillers" don't even need to be there. All the farmer needs is one other (an alt account) to stay in the TF.
How does that not benefit farmers?
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As I've stated numerous times in this thread...
Farmers spawn maps set for sizes of 6 to avoid bosses. This change would force them to fight bosses. Thats added danger plus it slows them down. This cuts into the influence / hour ratio & thus will be avoided.
Besides at lvl 50 your choices for TFs are Shard or STF. The Shard puts you against Nem, CoT & Rularu.... 3 villian groups that a farmer would want to stay far away from. Or you could try the STF which puts you against Arachnos, which isnt any better.
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You ever hear of this little thing called a pocket emp?
Fire/Kin+AB+Fort+CM=god-like
I think you need to hang out in PI on Freedom a bit more. You'd be surprised at what you'd learn. Like how farmers have no issues running farms spawned for 8, with just a wee bit of help. And I have seen people that dual-box and farm.
"A good Defender is the battle hardened Corpsman who will kill a Nazi with a tongue depressor while putting a splint on your leg, then hand you a fresh clip of ammo." ~Jock_Thompson
Repeat Offenders, TNT Profile, My little hero
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I'd love to get some numbers from other folks. Right now it looks like while we were getting an across-the-board increase in xp/inf at our native levels, we actually got a DECREASE in inf while exemplared.
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I didn't write down numbers -- should have -- my level 45, on a 50's mission yesterday was getting unequal XP/inf. But I wasn't exemped or lackied or anything. I wonder if it isn't the level adjustment, but teaming doing something odd?
hmmm....
I'm either one of the luckiest guys on the planet, or something was done to the drop pools.
from all my time of doing cap runs, (and I have ALOT of exp doing them) i've probably got 2 lotg 7.5's.
i recently got 2 within 2 days.
i went to the BM and noticed that there were 2 more lvl 50's for sale. makes me wonder how the "drop" system works.
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Do you seriously not see how a farmer could start a TF set at a minimum of 8 members, and then run the mission ad nauseum as a farm? The "fillers" don't even need to be there. All the farmer needs is one other (an alt account) to stay in the TF.
How does that not benefit farmers?
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As I've stated numerous times in this thread...
Farmers spawn maps set for sizes of 6 to avoid bosses. This change would force them to fight bosses. Thats added danger plus it slows them down. This cuts into the influence / hour ratio & thus will be avoided.
Besides at lvl 50 your choices for TFs are Shard or STF. The Shard puts you against Nem, CoT & Rularu.... 3 villian groups that a farmer would want to stay far away from. Or you could try the STF which puts you against Arachnos, which isnt any better.
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And as I have said...
Ice Mistral TF on my Brute...I have no troubles farming that entire CoT map over and over again set for a team of 4...solo...
QR about Pool C Rewards
1. No more SOs, only recipes.
2. Upon completion 6 recipes are randomly selected for the reward dialog box
3. Pick the one you want
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1) Regardless of how big a change is, exploit fixes are not snd should not be tested without an NDA. NDAs are fairly useless for testing exploit fixes, since honest folk who would abide by an NDA don't knowingly exploit. Hence, no warning.
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I am very confused by the basic premise of your post. I've never heard of this "exploit fixes must be secret and NDA'd" rule before.
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It has been said many times before, but the most recent example is <a href="/showflat.php?Number=10198732" target="_blank">here</a>:
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The reason these items were not included in the Training Room testing notes, is that try not to call attention to exploits.
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Here is Positron saying pretty much the same thing <a href="/showthreaded.php?Number=5895304" target="_blank">June 29, 2006</a>:
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It is policy to NOT post patch notes about things that can be considered exploits or griefing tactics on the Training Room patch notes. When the fix goes to live, then the patch note appears.
Exploiters and griefers don't always "share their tactics" on how they do stuff. We would not knowingly put into a patch note that something is getting fixed on the training room that could be used to exploit/grief. This is so that players on the live servers don't abuse the bug until it gets off the training room and onto live.
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So, it has been well established that the above policy is in place.
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Yes, and when they are changing a game mechanic that affects people who play the game normally, that policy needs to change. It needed to change for the Rikti Portal change, and it sure as hell needed to change for this. If this had been in the patch notes, the issue of the Shard TFs requiring 8 would have been raised in testing, where either this change could have been adjusted or the minimums could have been adjusted.
Few if anyone here is saying "yes, we have to be able to solo these task forces". The only mission I've heard people say "we need to solo" is the bugged mission with the technician in the LRSF. The goal of the change isn't the issue. But the side effects are very bad, and those side effects are made worse by the problems already existing in the task forces and strike forces.
And no, I don't expect any significant changes to task forces in I12. I'd love to see them in I13, but I doubt it. The last official comments we've gotten on task forces was Positron saying "yeah, my task force sucks but we've never managed to schedule time to fix it" and Lighthouse commenting on Eden's problems with "We work on new content, we can't waste developer resources on old content". Just yesterday, Back Alley Brawler talked about Dr. Quarterfield, perhaps the most broken in terms of fun factor TF in the game, "Yeah, it sucks, but that's what the badge is for, to say you did something that sucks."
(No, those aren't exact quotes, but I think I've captured the essence of the statements.)
If there was going to be another patch before I12, I'd suggest some tweaks to TF/SF minimums and some tweaks to this change to make it workable. But since Rage's further changes had to be abandoned to work on I12, this change needs to be reverted. The side effects are just too bad to live with them until I12 goes live.
My arcs are constantly shifting, just search for GadgetDon for the latest.
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GadgetMania Under Attack: The Digg Lockout
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I'd love to get some numbers from other folks. Right now it looks like while we were getting an across-the-board increase in xp/inf at our native levels, we actually got a DECREASE in inf while exemplared.
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I didn't write down numbers -- should have -- my level 45, on a 50's mission yesterday was getting unequal XP/inf. But I wasn't exemped or lackied or anything. I wonder if it isn't the level adjustment, but teaming doing something odd?
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I don't know what effect teaming would have on what I noted. My testing, both pre- and post-smoothing, was done solo to keep that variable controlled.
Still waiting for any kind of evidence that there wasn't a stealth nerf to inf earnings while exemplared to deal with Ouroboros/tf farming.
My postings to this forum are not to be used as data in any research study without my express written consent.
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Still waiting for any kind of evidence that there wasn't a stealth nerf to inf earnings while exemplared to deal with Ouroboros/tf farming.
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I wouldn't think they'd do that, it seems really counterproductive to up XP even more in teams, and lower inf gained more. Teams were already about all the XP you could handle and none of the loot, so making it even more so seems unwise.
In the interest of actually testing out the changes, I ran a bunch of TFs this weekend, watched Victory Badges for stories, and talked to my friends about the TFs they were running.
The goal of the proposed fix should be:
1. Stop the practice of softloading
2. Stop a few people doing a TF for 8 rewards
3. Not hurt legitimate players who aren't doing either
As far as I could tell, this fix fails on all three counts.
I had friends softloading Posi for 3 and killing with 8. Yes, it's slightly less effective than softloading for 1, but it's still substantial softloading none the less, and doesn't fix the problem of unnatural gameplay, like telling people to log out for 3 minutes while you map.
I was able to duo Manti, Synapse, and Numina in 90 minutes each, and still have friends and second accounts log in at the end for the AV and 8 recipes. Players who didn't do the TF can still get the reward, you just need two people doing the TF rather than one. (Note that Numina felt entirely soloable, but I didn't test it.)
In Victory Badges I saw people trying to form a Shadow Shard TF, manage to get 7, be unable to find an 8th who could stay for the whole thing, and thus have to give up all together. I also heard of several TFs end in failure when players dropped out and the willing participants weren't able to deal with the mega spawn sizes. This change is having a substantial and unnecessary negative effect on legitimate players.
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Note that the ratio of inf granted here is exactly 1:2:6 going minion:lt:boss. Numbers this precise aren't accidental. There is a different multiplier for rewards based on enemy class when exemplared than when fighting at your native level.
Specifically, as a native level 50, the ratio for +2 minion:lt:boss inf awards is 3464:11878:37117, or a little closer to 1:3:10.
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Just a quick FYI on this: all testing has shown the minion:LT:boss XP ratios to be 1:2:6 for levels 45 and above.
It's just occurred to me, though, that I failed to test levels 51+. I don't see why they'd be different, though.
Two quick questions: one, were you on teams for this, and if so, were they teams of the same size? There's an XP multiplier based on team size, so it could make a difference (maybe you answered this already and I missed it; if so, sorry.)
And two, were they the same type of mobs each time? Not just minion, LT or boss, but the same types of minion, LT, or boss? Some mobs are considered inherently harder than others, so they have multipliers attached to them to make them give more XP. A Fake Nemesis, for example, gives 1.7 times the XP of a "normal" boss. So that could also be making a difference.
I'm going to check this out when I get a chance.
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Guys, we need to figure out a way to exploit the game that involves the RSF tech, toggle debuffs, vill patrons, other QoL issues, and anything else we feel needs to be fixed, then people need to complain about how they relate to RMT, THEN they might get fixed.
[/ QUOTE ]QFT
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Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
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1) Regardless of how big a change is, exploit fixes are not snd should not be tested without an NDA. NDAs are fairly useless for testing exploit fixes, since honest folk who would abide by an NDA don't knowingly exploit. Hence, no warning.
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I am very confused by the basic premise of your post. I've never heard of this "exploit fixes must be secret and NDA'd" rule before.
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It has been said many times before, but the most recent example is here:
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The reason these items were not included in the Training Room testing notes, is that try not to call attention to exploits.
[/ QUOTE ]
Here is Positron saying pretty much the same thing June 29, 2006:
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It is policy to NOT post patch notes about things that can be considered exploits or griefing tactics on the Training Room patch notes. When the fix goes to live, then the patch note appears.
Exploiters and griefers don't always "share their tactics" on how they do stuff. We would not knowingly put into a patch note that something is getting fixed on the training room that could be used to exploit/grief. This is so that players on the live servers don't abuse the bug until it gets off the training room and onto live.
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So, it has been well established that the above policy is in place.
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