I didn't appreciate CoX's innovations until ...
By
AlexEss,
Posted on: 2007-12-26 09:19 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
LOTRO - only 5 total? that's no good...
If they had sidekicking and exemplaring, I don't see why people would miss out on so much content, but just exemplaring is better than nothing. If you have neither, the game is missing a vital feature.
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Quoting this and agreeing 100%. There are times when spawns will appear in plain view in CoH but it's pretty rare (I've seen Malta and Carnies spawn on sidewalks in PI this way with a kind of teleporter effect).
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Or they use other tricks in wide open areas. Banished Pantheon Zombies burst out of graves or rise out of the water in a bog. Those funny looking trees you've just walked by suddenly transform into Devouring Earth or Fir Bolg. Red Caps will spawn on tree branches mostly out of sight and drop down from above when you walk beneath or simply pop out of hidden holes in the ground.
And competing with people for stupid drops sucks, especially when it is something silly like ears from a boar, which only drops after you kill a few dozen of them. Can I not just cut them off of the first one I killed? Or were the first ten not suitable? Are these magical knife-proof ears that only have a 1 in 10 chance of falling off upon the demise of the animal?
Yet another thing I've come to appreciate about City of Heroes/City of Villains: soloing is an option! One thing that annoyed the frag out of me about Everquest was that you needed a team to do much of anything. If you wanted to solo, you had to run one of the spell-casting classes that had the capability and you had to go to certain areas that was conducive to it. What wasn't helping was that it was nearly always mind-numbingly boring; killing the same darned giant over and over again, with a five minute wait in between each kill, got real old real fast. Finally, there wasn't always a nice place to solo within certain level ranges, meaning that if you wanted to solo, you were out of luck.
-Kirov
"To be violent at first and wind up fearing one's people is the epitome of ineptitude."
-Sun Tzu, The Art of War
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Other things such as class/power balance, combat mechanics, etc are really low points in my opinion and something I really hope the devs take some hard looks at for major overhauls if they ever do a CoX 2.
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Really? Not that I'm knocking it, but I'm curious what games you're referring to for Class/Power Balance and Combat Mechanics? I haven't run into any I felt were better, but I haven't played everything either, so I might end up with more things on my plate to try.
Not that I think CoX is the best balanced game ever (it's not) but as far as MMO's I've played go, it seems in the upper 50% to me.
Sgt Liberty - 50 Martial Arts / Super Reflexes
Verdigris Eagle - 50 Archery / Energy Manipulation
Stormeye - 50 Storm Summoning / Electric Blast
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Other things such as class/power balance, combat mechanics, etc are really low points in my opinion and something I really hope the devs take some hard looks at for major overhauls if they ever do a CoX 2.
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Really? Not that I'm knocking it, but I'm curious what games you're referring to for Class/Power Balance and Combat Mechanics? I haven't run into any I felt were better, but I haven't played everything either, so I might end up with more things on my plate to try.
Not that I think CoX is the best balanced game ever (it's not) but as far as MMO's I've played go, it seems in the upper 50% to me.
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Too true, as bad as balance in this game might be (either between ATs or sides), from what I've seen so far, it's worse elsewhere.
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Many other things mentioned in the thread I have seen elsewhere or done better in other games including balance between world and instanced content, progression, loot, social tools, etc. The gameplay itself isn't especially innovative but it serves the purpose it was created for well.
Other things such as class/power balance, combat mechanics, etc are really low points in my opinion and something I really hope the devs take some hard looks at for major overhauls if they ever do a CoX 2.
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I have played online games for over a decade. I -despise- the online Fantasy mold of looting items, competition, camping, kill stealing, finite world resources, farming to buy required items for raids, promising features in an expansion that gamers pay for only to find that half of the content is missing but patched in 6 months later and now the marketing spins this as a positive.
I played WoW, raided and farmed for those limited world resources until I realized that farming had become a job. I was paying to be an online farmer just to raid. No thanks.
I like that the mob AI isn't the brightest thing in the world. It makes the game a fun thing to play while I unwind from work chatting with friends and arresting baddies. I like this leisurely pace. EQ, WoW, FFXI and LOTRO all had their mobs get increasingly harder to fight. All this does is remove that content from casual players and players without uber guilds. That is really bad game design because it creates jealousy and all the negative things along with it. Sure, it was nice to finally beat something you were working on. But those 4-14 days of 'learning the encounter' -really- take a toll on everyone's moral and drive many good people away.
I love the 'debt to society' system and amazed it wasn't mentioned. In EQ and FFXI, when you died, you -lost- exp. It was possible to lose levels. I never understood that. WoW took a different approach in that the players items lost duribility. That, however, just creates an ever increasing demand for money and led to their massive RMT problem.
I love that missions are instanced. WoW, EQ, FFXI and LOTRO, all did not use this feature enough. I know it must take a lot of work but they create a huge opportunity be extremely creative and advance the story.
CoH gives it's players a wealth of opportunities. I can street sweep if I wish or run missions from contacts, radio missions and the Safeguard, Task Forces and take part in a Hami/Mothership raid. All of this as a nightly regular all without being in an uber guild. Sign me up!!!
Loot here isn't soulbound. I can trade any recipe/salvage to anyone I know, meet, auction or sell it. I will die happy if I never see another online fight over a soulbound item again.
Here, their isn't a need for 'Raid Point Systems' or other such nonsense. This is a game that broke with traditions that other companies seem to blindly follow. Things here allow the players to play the game, how they want to, at their pace on their schedule, without needing an uber guild to get things done.
The only two things, I would -really- like to see is locking the UI so I dont accidently move things and saving my UI layout, settings, and colors so that I don't need to take 10 minutes setting this up on any new characters I create.
CoH >>> All others
ADDITIONAL:
Oh my goodness, I forgot MAPS !
EQ and FFXI did not even have map in them!!! EQ added a strange mapping system later but at launch it didn't even have maps.
I think another CoX feature that shouldn't be overlooked is the billions (trillions?) of combinations to customize the look of your character. I love the fact that we are free to be so creative with our looks. It has turned me into an altaholic.
I find it shocking that MMOs that started development after CoX's release still limit you to less than 200 possible combinations of looks, most of which look the same. I'm spoiled now. I can't play another MMO without getting angry that 1/12th of every character I meet has the same hair style I do (which is usually the most distinctive part of the customization). I know other MMOs expect that the gear will make characters looking different, but that fails when every min/maxer goes for the same epic dragon sword of eliteness.
I keep trying other MMOs, but I always come back to CoX. EQ? No, I can't stand the grind or politics or the loot obsession. EQ2? No, the graphics make me want to puke and I can't stand one more quest to kill a bunch of grays. WoW? No, I feel no compulsion to be pwned by a 12 year old. SWG? LOL, NO! Too many reasons. Vanguard? No, I want a game where bugs are fixed, content is added, and people play. Auto Assault? No, nobody else played.
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LOTRO - only 5 total? that's no good...
If they had sidekicking and exemplaring, I don't see why people would miss out on so much content, but just exemplaring is better than nothing. If you have neither, the game is missing a vital feature.
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Yeah, only 5. And there are like 7 different AT's. So you can never play all the different things that are available.
Uber Talgrim - level 50 emp/dark defender
Uber Rod - level 50 dark melee/regen scrapper
Rod Valdr - level 50 invuln/SS tanker
Talgrim - level 50 ninja/dark mastermind
OMG!! Please add these costume designs now!
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I think you short change the concept of street sweeping in other games a bit -- if all you do is instance missions, an MMO can begin to feel awfully empty and lonely!
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Not only that, but the occasional "Defeat X of these villains" mission allows you to generate some imaginary animosity between your character and selected villain groups. For example, in CoH I had a character who took mostly "Defeat X Vazh" missions because that's who he was created to fight (primarily). I wish there were similar "Defeat X" missions in CoV so that I could be rewarded for picking on Longbow, Luddites, Clockwork, Scrapyarders, etc.
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I think another CoX feature that shouldn't be overlooked is the billions (trillions?) of combinations to customize the look of your character. I love the fact that we are free to be so creative with our looks. It has turned me into an altaholic.
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It's not so much the variety of combinations we have for our appearance -- from what I understand, there are as many possible combinations in, say, WoW -- but that the abilities of our characters aren't driven by what we wear. Everyone wants to fit themselves out with the best gear, but everyone's +27 Breastplate of Gonkulation looks the same in games like WoW, so unless you deliberately gimp yourself out when equipping yourself, you're going to look just like everyone else equipped the same way. In CoX, your abilities have nothing to do with your 'gear' (i.e., enhancements), so you're free to look like pretty much anything you want, regardless of how you're fitted out.
"But in our enthusiasm, we could not resist a radical overhaul of the system, in which all of its major weaknesses have been exposed, analyzed, and replaced with new weaknesses."
-- Bruce Leverett, Register Allocation in Optimizing Compilers
I just had to add my whole hearted agreement to this thread. As a WoW/EQ/UO refugee, I find CoX is far more friendly to my "adult" lifestyle. In both EQ and WoW I was a hardcore raiderbot. I slaved for hours and hour and hours each week to be prepped for a raid that was mostly explanations of scripted encounters that weren't going to yield any success or reward until we had learned it. Add to that, possibly no reward until LONG after it was on farm status. *mumbles incoherantly about a tier two breastplate and 8 months of farming*
CoX is easy to pick up, put down, play for an hour, play for a day. I can ALWAYS play with my friends and family via sidekicking/mentoring. I don't have to worry about "gearing up" someone so they can raid at my level and have fun. I don't have to slave for hours to be ready for a raid. Teams can be any random 8 folks you toss together and still be fun, no "LFM need healer" for 4 hours. and on and on with all the salient points that have been brought up so far.
The primary addition I have to add, and I am surprised a bigger deal isn't made out of this. When I finish a task force or a major story arc; I GET TO CHOSE MY REWARD AND EVERYONE GETS ONE. The is no relying on the random loot table, no DKP politics , no breeding of the worst possible components of human nature.
I left EQ after 3 years to play WoW. I left WoW after 2 years and 10 months because I was so disgusted with my "second job". Tabula Rasa just wasn't very engaging.
I purchased a years worth of gamecards for CoX as soon as my 30 day trial was up, and so far, it has been the best 2 months I have ever spent in an MMO.
The opening post of this thread is perhaps the best one I've read in several months. Very well-written, and I agree with it.
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Faolon[ QUOTE ]
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If there's something from Everquest that I don't miss, it's the unenviable situation of 1-5 pieces of loot for 72+ people.
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The same goes for every MMO that utilizes loot determine character effectiveness.
That's one thing I absolutely love about CoX. I'm actually done developing my Controller. I've been done developing him since last respeccing him, shortly after the release of ED. He's as effective as I want him to be, and I will likely never get over how awesome it feels to be able to say that about a character I play in an MMO!
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Why keep playing the character if theres nothing left to do with them?
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The answer to this question really is "What do you enjoy about playing CoH?"
For some its geting to 50, some its learning the story of it all, some its PvP, and yet others its the collection aspect or it simply a combination of these as well as others that I haven't mentioned.
The upshot is that different people do things for different reasons, constant "character building/upgrading" for some is not the point of the game.
I think it says alot about CoX that it offers an enjoyable experience in such a wide range of tastes and has done so for a long time (in terms of MMO shelf life).
Golden Avatar - 50 Invul/Mace Tanker (Infinity)
Police Drone GA - 50 Fire/FF Controller (Infinity)
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Open contact with the devs.
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Absolutely!
I was over in the wow forums the other day (my previous addiction), and someone was complaining about not getting any feedback on the many ideas and requests for fixes that are posted there. Someone had replied and said something to the effect of, "the devs are not allowed to comment in the suggestion forums for legal reasons".
Of course I had to jump in and say what utter BS that is, because there's at least one MMO out there where the devs not only comment on suggestions but actively implement them and participate in the community. Oh, and they have a sense of humor too!
Needless to say that went over real well. lol 
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Open contact with the devs.
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Absolutely!
I was over in the wow forums the other day (my previous addiction), and someone was complaining about not getting any feedback on the many ideas and requests for fixes that are posted there. Someone had replied and said something to the effect of, "the devs are not allowed to comment in the suggestion forums for legal reasons".
Of course I had to jump in and say what utter BS that is, because there's at least one MMO out there where the devs not only comment on suggestions but actively implement them and participate in the community. Oh, and they have a sense of humor too!
Needless to say that went over real well. lol
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I don't blame the Devs over there for not posting.
The moment one of them posts, they're assaulted with hundreds of people crying and begging for attention.
As someone else once said, the CMs at the WoW forums are saints compared to me. I wouldn't last more than an hour without just spamming the ban button.
Go there and look for any Blue Named poster. Doesn't matter which, just pick one. Go to a thread they post in. I bet anything theres a "zomg the devs are too busy to look at my complaints but waste time posting in useless threads!" comment somewhere in that thread.
A lot of the players are whiny little pricks who'll assault a CM just for being there.
Yeah, sure, I'm a loud mouth little [censored], but I LIKE seeing the red names post in silly threads.
"Through Avarice evil smiles; through insanity it sings"
Forum Troll Rule #1: Anyone who disagrees with my point of view is either a fanboy or an idiot.
I'm a proud carebear.
I've played CoH and WoW constantly since they launched.
CoH was my first MMORPG and I loved it dearly. I kept playing even after my SG moved to WoWer pastures.
I left because of the nerfs (getting rid of multiple Dark Servants was the final straw).
I quit CoH and focused in WoW for almost 8 months until I got burnt out. After all I've done with my Holy Paladin, the first few Kara raids showed me that he is woefully undergeared for it. He's my best character and having him on a raid is a death certificate for the entire team.
Sucks.
So, I'm back in CoH.
I dusted off my D3 and the new RWZ missions are awesome. I'm slowly decking him in IO's and I'm having fun playing missions were I am not gimped and I can be an effective part of the team.
I don't like CoH's economy, mind you. Waaay too much influence needs to be paid to get salvage or enhancements. WoW had expensive items, but never, ever like those. I don't like that you have to pay a lot of influence for a recipe and a lot of influence to craft the enhancement. I don't like the steep XP curve in levels 45 to 50. I don't like the pre-stamina levels. I don't like that some days you can't find a team no matter what you do.
But I still log in whenever I get the chance. Alt-itis if really fun in this game.
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I think another CoX feature that shouldn't be overlooked is the billions (trillions?) of combinations to customize the look of your character. I love the fact that we are free to be so creative with our looks. It has turned me into an altaholic.
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It's not so much the variety of combinations we have for our appearance -- from what I understand, there are as many possible combinations in, say, WoW -- but that the abilities of our characters aren't driven by what we wear. Everyone wants to fit themselves out with the best gear, but everyone's +27 Breastplate of Gonkulation looks the same in games like WoW, so unless you deliberately gimp yourself out when equipping yourself, you're going to look just like everyone else equipped the same way. In CoX, your abilities have nothing to do with your 'gear' (i.e., enhancements), so you're free to look like pretty much anything you want, regardless of how you're fitted out.
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It works the other way as well; there are advantages to not having your outward appearance tied to your abilities. You don't have the problem of people rejecting you for teams because you don't have the +27 Breastplate of Gonkulation. You are judged on the caliber of your play, not on the caliber of your equipment. I can play a Mind/Emp controller, and as long as I make a positive contribution to the team, it doesn't really matter whether I have Purple Sets slotted or I chose Mass Confusion or not.
Z
"I don't have an angel and a devil on my shoulder, I have Rocky and Bullwinkle." - Lore Sj�berg
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It works the other way as well; there are advantages to not having your outward appearance tied to your abilities. You don't have the problem of people rejecting you for teams because you don't have the +27 Breastplate of Gonkulation. You are judged on the caliber of your play, not on the caliber of your equipment. I can play a Mind/Emp controller, and as long as I make a positive contribution to the team, it doesn't really matter whether I have Purple Sets slotted or I chose Mass Confusion or not.
Z
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Well, it matters if your primaries/secondaries aren't slotted adequately. Six-slot rest, anyone? 1accx5dam? DO's in your 30's? Red SO's? One slot in your attacks, lots of slots in your fluff powers?
It's not as harsh as WoW, but if you don't slot adequately, your character is gimped.
Thank you devs for creating the best MMORPG there is. I play them all, often taking a break from CoX for several weeks at a time to try other MMORPG's. I've always come back to CoX and without fail I'm blown away at how great a game CoX is everytime.
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It works the other way as well; there are advantages to not having your outward appearance tied to your abilities. You don't have the problem of people rejecting you for teams because you don't have the +27 Breastplate of Gonkulation. You are judged on the caliber of your play, not on the caliber of your equipment. I can play a Mind/Emp controller, and as long as I make a positive contribution to the team, it doesn't really matter whether I have Purple Sets slotted or I chose Mass Confusion or not.
Z
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Well, it matters if your primaries/secondaries aren't slotted adequately. Six-slot rest, anyone? 1accx5dam? DO's in your 30's? Red SO's? One slot in your attacks, lots of slots in your fluff powers?
It's not as harsh as WoW, but if you don't slot adequately, your character is gimped.
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If you don't slot optimally then you won't be optimal. But I could probably play a character that was randomly generated, with random powers and random slotting, and make it seem like I meant it all along, with just the right application of skill. In fact, some players have come back from long breaks, stepped into their pre-ED "broken" builds, and been able to play just fine until they decided to respec, if they ever did. Could they play optimally? Obviously not. But they seemed to be able to play effectively.
I've been told that's not quite so easy to do in many other games.
In this game, at least, skill is more important than slotting.
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In fact, some players have come back from long breaks, stepped into their pre-ED "broken" builds, and been able to play just fine until they decided to respec, if they ever did. Could they play optimally? Obviously not. But they seemed to be able to play effectively.
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I came back in early Nov. All my toons were pre ED. I didn't respec any of them until I had been back more than 6 weeks. Maybe I wasn't "optimal" but I went from lvl 39 to lvl 44 on an nrg/nrg blaster while also leveling up several alts into the 20's. Honestly slotting IO's only made a difference in the procs. Putting hold procs into a ranged damage set has made a huge difference. The new defiance has made an enormous difference though.
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In this game, at least, skill is more important than slotting.
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Patience trumps all, though. The debt system means that one can die at every enemy spawn they meet, as long as they make some noticeable progress, and they'll still be able to hit 50 someday.
Whether that counts as "effective" is uncertain.
Current main:
Schrodinger's Gun, Dual Pistols/Mental Blaster, Virtue
Avatar: Becky Miyamoto from Pani Poni Dash. Roulette roulette~
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In this game, at least, skill is more important than slotting.
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I wouldn't call that so much skill as knowledge. Knowing what your powers do, how they act, how enemies react to them, when to use them and what to expect... That's what one needs to apply his or her powers effectively. Of course, that's likely a semantics argument, as what I just described as knowledge can probably be described as skill, depending on how you view things, but I generally regard skill as being closer to manual dexterity than encyclopaedic knowledge.
Beyond that, I completely agree - you can pick up just about any random combination and make it work (on a team). Even if it's not entirely too optimal, it WILL play.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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In this game, at least, skill is more important than slotting.
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Patience trumps all, though. The debt system means that one can die at every enemy spawn they meet, as long as they make some noticeable progress, and they'll still be able to hit 50 someday.
Whether that counts as "effective" is uncertain.
[/ QUOTE ]True. There are few video games in which death does not mean going backwards. Arcade games have "Insert 3 coins to continue", and some game allow you to restart from the beginning of the boss fight.
Heck, I remember some mech game in which failure to press the eject button before you get defeated means your game save is erased.
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
<QR>
Now I apologize for not reading through the rest of this thread, as I'm sure it's full of great points, but it's late and there's one other point that I think helps make this game so fun...
Open contact with the devs.
Now I don't have a large amount of experience with other MMO's, but those I have tried out (GW, D&DO, TR) really didn't have any contact with their development crew like our devs here. The open communication we get with Positron, BAB, Castle and the others keeps us informed of what's being looked at and what's to come (except the incredible dupe of weapon customization... what a great surprise there). The meet & greet events, while I haven't had the opportunity to attend, are also a great chance to see who it is that makes the mountains move for our entertainment. Playing in open beta with BAB in global chat, goofing off in AP or Oroboros, let us know they're not only watching as we test and break their new additions, but listening and paying attention to what's broken and who finally got the exact experience they were seeking. It adds a layer of trust that really shows when someone puts out a gigantic doooom rant denouncing the devs because /em salute doesn't make PB dwarfs instantly kill their target and they get 500 replies because honestly, it's not a nerf if something broken is fixed! (OK, extreme example that never happened but if it did... you'd see that post.) We've seen the devs in action doing their jobs, and we trust them to continue doing them, and I'd like to say thank you to all of them.
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