What changes do we need?

The devs have painted themselves into a corner, as far as pvp balance goes.

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* Fix Defense

* Fix Defense

* Either a) Tone down stalker animation times or b) reduce their survivability ...; far too easy to 2-shot someone in 2 seconds

* Give partial credit for Bounty - KS'ing favors the Blaster and Stalker (etc) who can finish the target that you've been working on for awhile... Isn't this done w/Experience when 2 different unteamed players who defeat a Mob on the street?


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I agree on these points, except for that stalker thing. This obviously refers entirely to EM stalkers. My animations are not all fast, and I do only smashing and lethal damage.

Yes, fix EM (on tanks too) but JUST SAY NO to nerfing my stalker any more than he is... it is already too hard to finish many toons before dying... and that's ASSUMING I get the drop on them.

Try more like 4 shots to take down many blasters, while blasters can two shot me right through my defense without needing to be hidden or worrying about interuptions. Try playing from the stalker side with a defense based protection set and a non-EM primary set b4 nerf herding please.

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I agree 100 percent when it comes to being a stalker in pvp and everyone is ss+cj way too fast for u to ever get an AS off while blasters jump shoot 24/7 and can 3 shot u if ur anything that isn't a brute/mm or healing corr.

I don't use em/ i don't think it needs to be nerfed that much since the animations are slow, but I think things like katana, all secondaries on tanks cept em, stone melee, and super strength need to be made stronger for pvp.

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Okay, I realize this is a really broad problem, but there's some specific examples I have in mind.

We need the same standards applied everywhere in the game.

I know this looks obvious at first, but when you look at it, it's actually very clear how many PvP problems stem from simple double standards in design. For example:

1) APP v PPP. This is transparently biased. The PPPs are held to a standard (no "best" pool) that appears nowhere else in the game, and are utterly worthless in PvP as a result. In fact, despite the promise of being stronger, they are actually weaker than the APPs in every measurable way. For example:

1A) Defenders and Corrupters both have access to Soul Drain as an epic power. They're virtually indistinguishable- except that the Corrupter version takes twice as long to recharge.

2) General borked villain power values.

2A) Mastermind PFF has four times the recharge of the Controller or Defender versions, or even the Blaster Epic. There used to be a reason for this, but MMs havn't been able to command their pets from inside PFF since i7 went live.

2B) Dominator Powerboost. It appears in a secondary powerset, just like the blaster version, but has twice the recharge, that is to say, the same recharge as the Controller Epic.

2C) BuildUp and Aim. These are totally absurd. The Brute and Stalker BuildUps, despite appearing in primary powersets, give only an 80% damage buff, the same as the Tanker secondary buildup. Meanwhile the Scrapper Primary and Blaster secondary give +100%. Corrupter and Dominator Aim give +42.5% Damage/ +42.5% ToHit, while the Blaster primary gives +62.5 Dmg/ 37.5% ToHit. Secondary Defender Aim gives +50%/+50%.

Honestly, if the devs simply stopped designing the game to penalize villain players, they might actually do better in PvP.

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*thumbs up* don't forget tankers having higher dmg, more hp, and higher resistance cap then brutes. I thought tankers were only suppose to take damage better then brutes, and not deal more damage? they should fix this in pvp.

I don't think you will ever get a Rare Recipe out of PvP wins alone.

Multi-specced PvE/PvP character builds was suggested by many players when PvP first started in CoH, fine by me, but nothing doing.

I have never had Placate fail to work. Mileage may vary though.

The major improvement to PvP that needs to be made first is there need to be new maps setup like Sirens Call is for higher levels. One clvl'ed to 40 and one clvl'ed 50. Different terrains, but otherwise exactly like Sirens Call. Maybe different rewards and mobs, but the pure player vs player gameplay offered on SC.

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Okay, I realize this is a really broad problem, but there's some specific examples I have in mind.

We need the same standards applied everywhere in the game.

I know this looks obvious at first, but when you look at it, it's actually very clear how many PvP problems stem from simple double standards in design. For example:

1) APP v PPP. This is transparently biased. The PPPs are held to a standard (no "best" pool) that appears nowhere else in the game, and are utterly worthless in PvP as a result. In fact, despite the promise of being stronger, they are actually weaker than the APPs in every measurable way. For example:

1A) Defenders and Corrupters both have access to Soul Drain as an epic power. They're virtually indistinguishable- except that the Corrupter version takes twice as long to recharge.

2) General borked villain power values.

2A) Mastermind PFF has four times the recharge of the Controller or Defender versions, or even the Blaster Epic. There used to be a reason for this, but MMs havn't been able to command their pets from inside PFF since i7 went live.

2B) Dominator Powerboost. It appears in a secondary powerset, just like the blaster version, but has twice the recharge, that is to say, the same recharge as the Controller Epic.

2C) BuildUp and Aim. These are totally absurd. The Brute and Stalker BuildUps, despite appearing in primary powersets, give only an 80% damage buff, the same as the Tanker secondary buildup. Meanwhile the Scrapper Primary and Blaster secondary give +100%. Corrupter and Dominator Aim give +42.5% Damage/ +42.5% ToHit, while the Blaster primary gives +62.5 Dmg/ 37.5% ToHit. Secondary Defender Aim gives +50%/+50%.

Honestly, if the devs simply stopped designing the game to penalize villain players, they might actually do better in PvP.

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*thumbs up* don't forget tankers having higher dmg, more hp, and higher resistance cap then brutes. I thought tankers were only suppose to take damage better then brutes, and not deal more damage? they should fix this in pvp.

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I think balance is pretty good. CoX PvP is very difficult and mastering one character build takes a long time. The problem is that not all powersets can PvP and you won't know that until you have invested many hours into trying to make the AT combo work in PvP. Virtually all AT's can help a team in PvP.

Bottom line. I have played on Villian teams where we had the right combo and held off a much larger force of Hero players so badly they couldn't leave there base for 30 minutes and I have done almost the same with a Hero team of the right make up. So it is balanced. It is just very challenging.

I've been pvp-ing online for 9 years in various games. Most of them aimed for better, but not perfect, one on one balances. CoX is more team-balanced. Thats fine, better in some ways, but it means that some days you're a diamond and somedays you're dirt. Thats balance too!

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higher dmg

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Base damage perhaps, by 6%. Damage cap? Brute's is over twice that of tankers. PvP is balanced around teams, where damage buffs will be ample, and often enough to easily cap a tank, where a brute will continue receiving benefit.
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more hp

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By design. Same HP cap though.
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higher resistance cap then brutes

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No. Same.

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I think balance is pretty good. CoX PvP is very difficult and mastering one character build takes a long time. The problem is that not all powersets can PvP and you won't know that until you have invested many hours into trying to make the AT combo work in PvP. Virtually all AT's can help a team in PvP.

Bottom line. I have played on Villian teams where we had the right combo and held off a much larger force of Hero players so badly they couldn't leave there base for 30 minutes and I have done almost the same with a Hero team of the right make up. So it is balanced. It is just very challenging.

I've been pvp-ing online for 9 years in various games. Most of them aimed for better, but not perfect, one on one balances. CoX is more team-balanced. Thats fine, better in some ways, but it means that some days you're a diamond and somedays you're dirt. Thats balance too!


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How often do you PvP? I'm not trying to be an jerk or come across as abrasive but, are you even playing the same game?
I don't think anyone in all honesty can play both sides and say they're both balanced, it's just not possible. Villains are clearly at a disadvantage.

usually 180 hero player come with a "dude it's a urban myth, villain are uberz"

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higher dmg

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Base damage perhaps, by 6%. Damage cap? Brute's is over twice that of tankers. PvP is balanced around teams, where damage buffs will be ample, and often enough to easily cap a tank, where a brute will continue receiving benefit.
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more hp

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By design. Same HP cap though.
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higher resistance cap then brutes

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No. Same.

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yah ur right bout same res cap, but I still think tankers do too much damage for a medium damage AT.

I'd like to propose a new Item for the next PvP-Issues draft: (whenever it comes around again)

Poistional DEFENSE is way too Binary currently. Just like Confusion is currently too binary but is being Addressed in the next patch. Positional defense is obviously a lot more Complicated and can't be fixed with Suppression. But it will still be a major source of problems should Defense ever be addressed in-general.

I have no idea how to address it universally, but one conclusion I believe a lot of us could agree on is that +DEF to specific damage types SHOULD be more effective than most positional DEF buffs. When it's not, that's when you end up with gank Squads of players all popping Lucks, Vengeance, "Elude in Siren's", and whatever else is "Cheezy" and easily exploitable. This would go Hand-in-Hand with stopping "Pill Popping" in general if everytime you popped more than a couple Inspirations... the next buff from each one after that would only give +<attribute> to 1 random damage type and only 5% to Positional DEF. (again, just an Example).

One way to Diversify Positional powers themselves, would be to apply TWO kinds of positional Damage type to every Attack that can have up to 2, while also Calculating Positonal DEF the old way where the weakest value was sometimes the first one calculated and used. And then remove atleast one Position +DEF type from powerpools and secondary powers that currently just grant equal amounts of +DEF to all 3 positions. ..While also making sure those mind/Psy control powers that have NO position types; finally get atleast 1 position type added to them.




PS: Completely different Tangent... but Blasters currently have a 175% DEF Cap and a 75% RES cap. This is NOT balanced for Team-PvP. [u]The Devs claim that PvP is balanced for Teams[u], but that remains a BIG FAT LIE so long as the absolute highest damage AT in the game has the same exact Defensive and Mez Protection caps as almost every other Archetype and can be turned into a Tank-Mage at will... a Tank mage with higher HP's than any other "Squishy" gets currently, btw. Their Caps need to be Normalized just like Acrobatics was recently Normalized. IE: Lowered to 125% DEF hardcap, and 60% RES cap (along with a 21-Mag Mez protection cap as well...Mez suppression will take care of the rest of the equation).

I still think stalkers need the most love as far as PvP goes. If Hide is supposed to make you invisible to your enemies, then it should work against "your enemies" in PvP.

As it is, the only way to become truly invisible is to buy one of the travel power stealth enhancements which run about 10 mil each.

Not being able to be seen is essential to the stalker playstyle, so I think it's kind of stupid for opposing players to be able to see you. It makes assasin's strike worthless, as you never have the time to pull it off if they can see you.

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As it is, the only way to become truly invisible is to buy one of the travel power stealth enhancements which run about 10 mil each.

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Don't forget wasting a Pool slot on Concealment to get Stealth.

cross server pvp is a bad idea. i don't want to pvp with the jerks from freedom server and so forth, i like to play with the people on my server that's why i chose it.
As for rewards that would only make pvp into another thing to farm

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I don't think anyone in all honesty can play both sides and say they're both balanced, it's just not possible. Villains are clearly at a disadvantage.

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Okay....

The villains complain they don't have any Epic ATs.. so developers give them Epic ATs way more effective in every aspect than compared to any Kheldian build.

They complain blasters do way too much damage.. so the developers decide to cut down significant portion of blaster's unresisted damage done to player targets.

They complain villain characters don't have any room for leadership based powers, despite the fact sacrificing one's own powers and implementing leadership buffs has become almost mandatory course of action for 'squishy' hero ATs to have at least some chance in just being able to detect stalkers easily reaching stealth cap.. so the developers implement hybrid villain epic ATs that use leadership traits that are more effective than normal leadership pool powers.. which makes having just three~four Epic ATs within vicinity of one another reaching near Elude/Retsu level of defense..

They complain some hero powersets are too powerful, so they give the same powersets, most notably Storm summoning, to villain ATs...

They complain stalkers are disadvantaged, so they up the base damage factor and health, not to mention teleport-foe does not break hide-status so one stalker can tpfoe an enemy AT and immediately enter AS...

They complain multiple Clearmind or Clarity type of buffs make dominator mezzes meaningless, and too easy to spot stalkers.. so the application of these buffs have been changed to unstackable from same caster..

...

... and you are still disadvantaged?


What more could you possibly want? A free "I.W.I.N. Button"?

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I still think stalkers need the most love as far as PvP goes. If Hide is supposed to make you invisible to your enemies, then it should work against "your enemies" in PvP.

As it is, the only way to become truly invisible is to buy one of the travel power stealth enhancements which run about 10 mil each.

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It works. Hide is invisible to the "normal" eye. Only those powers gifted with inherent perception or clairvoyance can detect a simple hide.

In the instances which tier2 stealth is engaged, through the use of Hide + Stealth, only about a handful of ATs can even detect through it, all the rest of the ATs needs another person to give Clearmind or Clarity type of buffs, in which case since stacking is now impossible, would still require an inherent perception power to work.

Or, just to detect ONE stalker and protect oneself from an AS going off you need at least two people using Tactics power.

To fully be protected against stalker incursion, two kinetics wielders of additional Increased density is needed to provide full protection against a TPfoe, another power needed to provide AS interruption, another needed for stun/status protection, another needed to heal.

In the instance where a tier3 stealth, reaching the stealthcap is engaged, the opposing side can have all of the above powers and yet, still not be able to detect ONE stalker unless he just walks inside 10ft radius and asks to be killed.

You still think they need more stealth?


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Not being able to be seen is essential to the stalker playstyle, so I think it's kind of stupid for opposing players to be able to see you.

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You won't think it's so stupid once you learn how much preparation is required to protect oneself from even a single stalker.

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It makes assasin's strike worthless, as you never have the time to pull it off if they can see you.

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The players that can "see" a stalker, is usually in groups. It's SUPPOSED to be difficult to engage enemies more numerous, otherwise we wouldn't call it a "numbers advantage".

In the case where there are as many stalkers around, a concentrated hit of jump-shot attacks within a short span of time can easily knock any squishy that might be providing perception buffs. You don't even need an AS. A coordinated critical attack from two~three stalkers can kill a defender or a controller. Any team that doesn't have at least two kinetics wielders with ID, is totally helpless against TPfoe type of attacks, in which case it has now become even more effective for stalkers to use.

So is AS really worthless? Or do you just fail to see there are more things a stalker can do, than just trying to land AS playing solo?

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Don't forget wasting a Pool slot on Concealment to get Stealth.

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How about having to "waste" two slots for assault and tactics, a third slot for additional perception such as Focused Accuracy (which, isn't even available for most other ATs and powers), spending as much money in trying to obtain a +perception IO, and still not being able to detect a Hide+Stealth+Stealth IO combo any competitive stalker uses mandatorily, unless within 10ft?

<< Ignore that Troll plz... Keep the thread constructive >>

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<< Ignore that Troll plz... Keep the thread constructive >>

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"Constructive", as in the massive mutual comfortation group therapy sessions for lazy losers going on this thread?

*snickers*

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I don't think anyone in all honesty can play both sides and say they're both balanced, it's just not possible. Villains are clearly at a disadvantage.

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Okay....

The villains complain they don't have any Epic ATs.. so developers give them Epic ATs way more effective in every aspect than compared to any Kheldian build.

They complain blasters do way too much damage.. so the developers decide to cut down significant portion of blaster's unresisted damage done to player targets.

They complain villain characters don't have any room for leadership based powers, despite the fact sacrificing one's own powers and implementing leadership buffs has become almost mandatory course of action for 'squishy' hero ATs to have at least some chance in just being able to detect stalkers easily reaching stealth cap.. so the developers implement hybrid villain epic ATs that use leadership traits that are more effective than normal leadership pool powers.. which makes having just three~four Epic ATs within vicinity of one another reaching near Elude/Retsu level of defense..

They complain some hero powersets are too powerful, so they give the same powersets, most notably Storm summoning, to villain ATs...

They complain stalkers are disadvantaged, so they up the base damage factor and health, not to mention teleport-foe does not break hide-status so one stalker can tpfoe an enemy AT and immediately enter AS...

They complain multiple Clearmind or Clarity type of buffs make dominator mezzes meaningless, and too easy to spot stalkers.. so the application of these buffs have been changed to unstackable from same caster..

...

... and you are still disadvantaged?


What more could you possibly want? A free "I.W.I.N. Button"?

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Hey fire/em blasters get one, cant we as well? Everything that has been currently buffed for villians has given them access to the ladder heroes have been climbing for a while. Heroes are still quite a few steps ahead. Personally I would say the only thing villians have going for them is super ioed widows. Besides that a blaster could just say, "Pfftt let me pop a breakfree a couple reds and own this [censored]". And since the EM nerf alot of us cant say that anymore.... Same goes for regen scrappers which no longer have to fear stalkers after the nerf. Ofcourse that affected heroes as well and not to say one was more affected then the other but hey this isn't one of those EM post so i'll stop.

Yo, Rinkoz don't worry about it.

I am not sure if this has been mentioned, but I'd like to see villain accuracy debuffs matter in PVP at least with me they don't seem to count because no matter how many I stack I die.

In my opinion one fix they definetly need to implement is TP Foe breaks your hide status for stalkers so they cannot TP Foe, and then Assassin strike. Stalkers have stalth at high levels so they can manuever next to unsuspecting targets and then AS them. It should not apply if you throw a defacto attack (And TP Foe is an attack).
If you wanna do the Tport and AS thing, at least you have to be the one putting yourself next to the target, not dragging the target next to you.
Its also a simple fix, and it would help prevent slightly base camping. All to the good.

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They complain multiple Clearmind or Clarity type of buffs make dominator mezzes meaningless, and too easy to spot stalkers.. so the application of these buffs have been changed to unstackable from same caster..

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What the [censored] are you smoking? Are you serious? You can indeed stack the same Clear minds or Clarity or thaw from the same caster, in essence upping their mez protection.

Clarity is not available before SC level(for corruptors). CM for heroes grants + perception, yet villains get no +perception for any AT's except stalkers. Not balanced. Thaw should grant +perception and Clarity should also be be moved around the sonic powerset to be available by SC level.

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They complain blasters do way too much damage.. so the developers decide to cut down significant portion of blaster's unresisted damage done to player targets.

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Tell me, which villain AT is able to power boost their build up and AIM, basically nullifying any defense based set's tier 9?
Also tell me how it's fair to have lesser values for build up/Aim for stalkers and corruptors compared to Defenders and blasters?

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They complain some hero powersets are too powerful, so they give the same powersets, most notably Storm summoning, to villain ATs...

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Yet heroes, got thermal radiation, and villain got what? Storm summoning, yet it's not nearly as powerful as the defender version. Let's also not forget that a controller's melt armor can be power boosted and so can Forge ...which would boost the +to-hit Forge grants. Only cold domintors can powerboost, but the recharge on it is twice as long.

Villains got storm, but heroes also got cold dominatio for defenders. Even before it's powerboosted, it's got crazy stupid higher values than the corruptor veresion. Once it's PB'ed it's just [censored] overpowered.

Did I also mention the blatant imbalance between APP vs PPPs?

No, you're wrong. Villains are at a disadvantage.


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what more could you possibly want? A free "I.W.I.N. Button"?

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Balanced out PPPs compared to APPs and the re working of build up/aim values for corruptors/stalkers/brutes compared to defenders and blasters.

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They complain multiple Clearmind or Clarity type of buffs make dominator mezzes meaningless, and too easy to spot stalkers.. so the application of these buffs have been changed to unstackable from same caster..

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What the [censored] are you smoking? Are you serious? You can indeed stack the same Clear minds or Clarity or thaw from the same caster, in essence upping their mez protection.

Clarity is not available before SC level(for corruptors). CM for heroes grants + perception, yet villains get no +perception for any AT's except stalkers. Not balanced. Thaw should grant +perception and Clarity should also be be moved around the sonic powerset to be available by SC level.

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Just FYI, O2 Boost now grants +perception. So villains do have a +per ally buff in sirens. It's one of the changes Castle made for i12, I believe at least partially as a repsonse to the PvP wishlist.

lolmelee PvPer here. Please do SOMETHING constructive with Taunt. There have been many excellent ideas regarding Taunt in PvP posted on these forums. Implement them all, stick it on the test server and then listen to the player feedback.

I truely believe you can alter Taunt so that it doesn't change anything in PvE and at the same time makes strides in balancing the gap between melee and ranged toons.

taunt is fine as is. i was bein taunted once in one of the matches i was in for like a tournament... it was sooo annoying. its really not easy to get out of if the tank just stays on you.

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taunt is fine as is. i was bein taunted once in one of the matches i was in for like a tournament... it was sooo annoying. its really not easy to get out of if the tank just stays on you.

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But this only applies to Tanks, Brutes and Scrappers can't taunt and live as easily, they are damage dealers but cannot get into melee long enough or at all to do anything productive. I would not consider Tanks a melee AT, their primary is shields and survivability, Brutes and Scrappers are primary melee'ers that can't be very effective in pvp.