Consolidated Power and Weapon Customization Thread
By
Aett_Thorn,
Posted on: 2007-09-08 16:38 in Suggestions and Ideas
[ QUOTE ]
So just because we don't work for cryptic...doesn't mean we cant help cryptic.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, it does.
The problem is that we armchair designers don't actually know anything about the architecture of the CoH game engine. It's easy to look at the externals and make assumptions about what the internals look like. Unfortunately, assumptions is all they are. Without detailed knowledge of the nuts and bolts of the game engine, none of us forumites are in any position to make any useful suggestions to Cryptic; never mind whether the people making the suggestions have the qualifications to be making them.
Imagine that your brother tells you about his new car and how it's great, but the performance is not quite up to par. You look at the symptoms, and you say "Well, I'll bet we can just tune up the fuel injection system and rebuild the piston rings and we'll have it purring pretty in no time."
So, you send it to the mechanic and the mechanic says "Sorry, no can do." When you ask "Why? It sounds simple enough." he responds "It's a rotary engine. It doesn't have fuel injectors or pistons."
I think it's time we all just accepted the idea that the failure to implement power customization after more than three years probably indicates that the game engine "doesn't have pistons", no matter how much it looks like a standard combustion engine from the outside.
There may eventually be a clever person who figures out how to do it within the limitations of the game engine, but that person will be a Cryptic developer (or maybe an intern who was never told that it's "impossible", *heh*) who understands the client/server and the underlying architecture. We armchair designers may be amusing ourselves or making ourselves feel better about our unrequited wish fulfillment by "helping" but the fact is that we're not really telling Cryptic anything they don't already know.
The main quote that Lemon Lass is missing is the very old quote from Statesman saying that the Devs want to do power customization and they will do it, but only when it makes sense.
I see no point trashing the issue further. There is no chance that players will be able to tell them how to code it faster. Players have made their feelings known and based on their replies the Devs already have a pretty good idea how they want to implement PC.
Better to apply yourself to issues where input can actually help.
----------------------------
You can't please everyone, so lets concentrate on me.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So just because we don't work for cryptic...doesn't mean we cant help cryptic.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, it does.
The problem is that we armchair designers don't actually know anything about the architecture of the CoH game engine. It's easy to look at the externals and make assumptions about what the internals look like. Unfortunately, assumptions is all they are. Without detailed knowledge of the nuts and bolts of the game engine, none of us forumites are in any position to make any useful suggestions to Cryptic; never mind whether the people making the suggestions have the qualifications to be making them.
Imagine that your brother tells you about his new car and how it's great, but the performance is not quite up to par. You look at the symptoms, and you say "Well, I'll bet we can just tune up the fuel injection system and rebuild the piston rings and we'll have it purring pretty in no time."
So, you send it to the mechanic and the mechanic says "Sorry, no can do." When you ask "Why? It sounds simple enough." he responds "It's a rotary engine. It doesn't have fuel injectors or pistons."
I think it's time we all just accepted the idea that the failure to implement power customization after more than three years probably indicates that the game engine "doesn't have pistons", no matter how much it looks like a standard combustion engine from the outside.
There may eventually be a clever person who figures out how to do it within the limitations of the game engine, but that person will be a Cryptic developer (or maybe an intern who was never told that it's "impossible", *heh*) who understands the client/server and the underlying architecture. We armchair designers may be amusing ourselves or making ourselves feel better about our unrequited wish fulfillment by "helping" but the fact is that we're not really telling Cryptic anything they don't already know.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think that it won't fit in the game engine. They HAVE implemented changes to colors. It is the time factor that is the hump to overcome. If, perhaps, the armachair designers postulated theories about how to cut production time, that might be productive. They know how to implement PC. They just don't know how to do it quickly.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So just because we don't work for cryptic...doesn't mean we cant help cryptic.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, it does.
The problem is that we armchair designers don't actually know anything about the architecture of the CoH game engine. It's easy to look at the externals and make assumptions about what the internals look like. Unfortunately, assumptions is all they are. Without detailed knowledge of the nuts and bolts of the game engine, none of us forumites are in any position to make any useful suggestions to Cryptic; never mind whether the people making the suggestions have the qualifications to be making them.
Imagine that your brother tells you about his new car and how it's great, but the performance is not quite up to par. You look at the symptoms, and you say "Well, I'll bet we can just tune up the fuel injection system and rebuild the piston rings and we'll have it purring pretty in no time."
So, you send it to the mechanic and the mechanic says "Sorry, no can do." When you ask "Why? It sounds simple enough." he responds "It's a rotary engine. It doesn't have fuel injectors or pistons."
I think it's time we all just accepted the idea that the failure to implement power customization after more than three years probably indicates that the game engine "doesn't have pistons", no matter how much it looks like a standard combustion engine from the outside.
There may eventually be a clever person who figures out how to do it within the limitations of the game engine, but that person will be a Cryptic developer (or maybe an intern who was never told that it's "impossible", *heh*) who understands the client/server and the underlying architecture. We armchair designers may be amusing ourselves or making ourselves feel better about our unrequited wish fulfillment by "helping" but the fact is that we're not really telling Cryptic anything they don't already know.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think that it won't fit in the game engine. They HAVE implemented changes to colors. It is the time factor that is the hump to overcome. If, perhaps, the armachair designers postulated theories about how to cut production time, that might be productive. They know how to implement PC. They just don't know how to do it quickly.
[/ QUOTE ]
Also why the assumption that it has to be done in a rush?
Why not let them do it a little bit at a time?
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
[ QUOTE ]
If, perhaps, the armachair designers postulated theories about how to cut production time, that might be productive.
[/ QUOTE ]
No, it wouldn't be productive at all.
Think about someone who's never been to New York trying to give directions for how to get around in New York. He doesn't know the streets, he's never even looked at a map, yet he's trying to tell someone who lives there the best way to get to work in the morning.
That's what we're talking about. People who have never looked at the database code for CoX have nothing useful to say about how to change it faster. People haven't ever looked at the particle files in the powers don't know what it would take to change them, and thus don't know enough to suggest a faster way to do it.
I appreciate that people are trying to help. I think the people at Cryptic think it's a nice thought, too. But there's really nothing that anyone can do to help Cryptic.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So just because we don't work for cryptic...doesn't mean we cant help cryptic.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, it does.
The problem is that we armchair designers don't actually know anything about the architecture of the CoH game engine. It's easy to look at the externals and make assumptions about what the internals look like. Unfortunately, assumptions is all they are. Without detailed knowledge of the nuts and bolts of the game engine, none of us forumites are in any position to make any useful suggestions to Cryptic; never mind whether the people making the suggestions have the qualifications to be making them.
Imagine that your brother tells you about his new car and how it's great, but the performance is not quite up to par. You look at the symptoms, and you say "Well, I'll bet we can just tune up the fuel injection system and rebuild the piston rings and we'll have it purring pretty in no time."
So, you send it to the mechanic and the mechanic says "Sorry, no can do." When you ask "Why? It sounds simple enough." he responds "It's a rotary engine. It doesn't have fuel injectors or pistons."
I think it's time we all just accepted the idea that the failure to implement power customization after more than three years probably indicates that the game engine "doesn't have pistons", no matter how much it looks like a standard combustion engine from the outside.
There may eventually be a clever person who figures out how to do it within the limitations of the game engine, but that person will be a Cryptic developer (or maybe an intern who was never told that it's "impossible", *heh*) who understands the client/server and the underlying architecture. We armchair designers may be amusing ourselves or making ourselves feel better about our unrequited wish fulfillment by "helping" but the fact is that we're not really telling Cryptic anything they don't already know.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think that it won't fit in the game engine. They HAVE implemented changes to colors. It is the time factor that is the hump to overcome. If, perhaps, the armachair designers postulated theories about how to cut production time, that might be productive. They know how to implement PC. They just don't know how to do it quickly.
[/ QUOTE ]
Also why the assumption that it has to be done in a rush?
Why not let them do it a little bit at a time?
[/ QUOTE ]
I am all for letting them do it a bit at a time. I am all for it in any manner it comes, just let us know that it is and I will shut up and not post about it again. And yes, I can be held to that.
[ QUOTE ]
Also why the assumption that it has to be done in a rush?
Why not let them do it a little bit at a time?
[/ QUOTE ]
That doesn't really solve the problem.
The devs have stated that some people would have to spend so much time on PC that they'd get nothing else done for several issues. So that means over a year of work.
Let's say they just work on PC a little bit every now and then. Say, one day a week. One year just turned into 5 years. Is anyone here really satisfied a solution that gets us Power Customisation in 5 years?
Now lets say they devote more time to it. Those people who would be bogged down with PC spend half their time on it. That means we don't get PC for more than 2 years, and the things those people were working on all take twice as long. Nobody likes issues that skimp on certain types of features, especially when they do it several issues in a row. And nobody likes it when the issues get spread out to more than 6 months between them. We've seen both of these things in the past, so having worse versions of them would certainly be problematic.
Time spent working on PC is time spent not doing other stuff. Spreading that out over a long period of time doesn't change the fact that it's still the same trade off. The devs have looked at the amount of stuff that they'd have to delay to get PC, and they've made a decision. Perhaps that decision will change in the future. I'd love it if it did, but us asking for it a million times in a million threads doesn't really change the facts of the matter.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So just because we don't work for cryptic...doesn't mean we cant help cryptic.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, it does.
The problem is that we armchair designers don't actually know anything about the architecture of the CoH game engine. It's easy to look at the externals and make assumptions about what the internals look like. Unfortunately, assumptions is all they are. Without detailed knowledge of the nuts and bolts of the game engine, none of us forumites are in any position to make any useful suggestions to Cryptic; never mind whether the people making the suggestions have the qualifications to be making them.
Imagine that your brother tells you about his new car and how it's great, but the performance is not quite up to par. You look at the symptoms, and you say "Well, I'll bet we can just tune up the fuel injection system and rebuild the piston rings and we'll have it purring pretty in no time."
So, you send it to the mechanic and the mechanic says "Sorry, no can do." When you ask "Why? It sounds simple enough." he responds "It's a rotary engine. It doesn't have fuel injectors or pistons."
I think it's time we all just accepted the idea that the failure to implement power customization after more than three years probably indicates that the game engine "doesn't have pistons", no matter how much it looks like a standard combustion engine from the outside.
There may eventually be a clever person who figures out how to do it within the limitations of the game engine, but that person will be a Cryptic developer (or maybe an intern who was never told that it's "impossible", *heh*) who understands the client/server and the underlying architecture. We armchair designers may be amusing ourselves or making ourselves feel better about our unrequited wish fulfillment by "helping" but the fact is that we're not really telling Cryptic anything they don't already know.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think that it won't fit in the game engine. They HAVE implemented changes to colors. It is the time factor that is the hump to overcome. If, perhaps, the armachair designers postulated theories about how to cut production time, that might be productive. They know how to implement PC. They just don't know how to do it quickly.
[/ QUOTE ]
Also why the assumption that it has to be done in a rush?
Why not let them do it a little bit at a time?
[/ QUOTE ]
I am all for letting them do it a bit at a time. I am all for it in any manner it comes, just let us know that it is and I will shut up and not post about it again. And yes, I can be held to that.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm of the opposite slightly. I'd rather they do it a little bit at a time and ONLY tell us when its about to be released, in an issue preview. Stating that its coming at all will just lead to more "so what issue is it?" or the "devs lied, we still haven't gotten it in over 2 years" or worse if they end up having to drop it mid-way.
I'd rather they work on it behind the scenes (like everything else they do) and then announce it ONLY when its nearing release. The same way they did the powerset of dual blades.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also why the assumption that it has to be done in a rush?
Why not let them do it a little bit at a time?
[/ QUOTE ]
That doesn't really solve the problem.
The devs have stated that some people would have to spend so much time on PC that they'd get nothing else done for several issues. So that means over a year of work.
Let's say they just work on PC a little bit every now and then. Say, one day a week. One year just turned into 5 years. Is anyone here really satisfied a solution that gets us Power Customisation in 5 years?
Now lets say they devote more time to it. Those people who would be bogged down with PC spend half their time on it. That means we don't get PC for more than 2 years, and the things those people were working on all take twice as long. Nobody likes issues that skimp on certain types of features, especially when they do it several issues in a row. And nobody likes it when the issues get spread out to more than 6 months between them. We've seen both of these things in the past, so having worse versions of them would certainly be problematic.
Time spent working on PC is time spent not doing other stuff. Spreading that out over a long period of time doesn't change the fact that it's still the same trade off. The devs have looked at the amount of stuff that they'd have to delay to get PC, and they've made a decision. Perhaps that decision will change in the future. I'd love it if it did, but us asking for it a million times in a million threads doesn't really change the facts of the matter.
[/ QUOTE ]
You completely missed my point. They should work on it a little bit at a time, but they most certainly should not say its coming till its coming. They don't even have to tell us they are working on it. Just say its coming in an issue preview when its nearing release.
How long had they been working on Inventions before it was finally released?
The devs said it will take a long time. Let it, as long as we finally get it.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
[ QUOTE ]
Also why the assumption that it has to be done in a rush?
Why not let them do it a little bit at a time?
[/ QUOTE ]
*squeals the breaks bringing thread to a halt*
Hold on a minute!
Why the rush? Not really a rush, but let me just throw this personal experience at you.
When a programmer (most of them that I know anyway) gets busy on a project and gets into a groove the last thing they usually do is stop working on that thing to do something else.
Why? Because it throws them off, they lose their flow and train of thought.
I myself get stuck glued to the screen when I get an idea for a new project, it's very hard to pull yourself away when the groove sets in.
Ok, back to your regular scheduled posting.
�Alas, regardless of their doom, the little victims play!� - Thomas Gray
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also why the assumption that it has to be done in a rush?
Why not let them do it a little bit at a time?
[/ QUOTE ]
*squeals the breaks bringing thread to a halt*
Hold on a minute!
Why the rush? Not really a rush, but let me just throw this personal experience at you.
When a programmer (most of them that I know anyway) gets busy on a project and gets into a groove the last thing they usually do is stop working on that thing to do something else.
Why? Because it throws them off, they lose their flow and train of thought.
I myself get stuck glued to the screen when I get an idea for a new project, it's very hard to pull yourself away when the groove sets in.
Ok, back to your regular scheduled posting.
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh I agree.
But I'm guess that breaking stuff into schedules is exactly what happens in an MMO. I don't think its possible to work on just one thing with an MMO "issue" scheudle.
I think MMO progarammign is a little different than regular programming.
but ofcourse having no programming experience, or mmo development experience, or knowing what cryptic's spaghetti code looks like, all this is talking outta my A** 
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
[ QUOTE ]
I don't think that it won't fit in the game engine. They HAVE implemented changes to colors. It is the time factor that is the hump to overcome. If, perhaps, the armachair designers postulated theories about how to cut production time, that might be productive. They know how to implement PC. They just don't know how to do it quickly.
[/ QUOTE ]
You're forgetting the other big hurdle to PC, Information Propagation. The reworking of the effects is the biggest hurdle, but it is by no means the only big hurdle.
When Issue 8 came out, a lot of people were spontaneously disconnecting on teams. As far as we can tell, it was happening because they had made a change that increased the amount of data being sent back and forth between players. Just one small change in the way the client/server passes data back and forth led to regular crashes.
PC would lead to a large increase in the amount of data being passed. Instead of shorthand that says "this guy has these 6 powersets, you know what those all look like go to town" the programmers need to come up with a way to pass that specific color info for each and every different power someone customizes, to every other player that can see it. If they do the bulk of it when someone loads into a zone, then you're looking at longer load times. And then they still have to pass fresh data when someone new comes in. If they do it dynamically there's a lot more data flying around. You think a Bots/FF can cause graphical slowdown now? Just wait until each rank of robot has custom blast colors, altered looks, and all the bubbles are customized for a Skittles Rainbow.
One of the strongpoints of the game is the speed of combat even when several players are around. Not just PvP, but PvE. Tinkering with that for the sake of new shininess alone is a dangerous Pandora's Box.
This is the crux of it: People who want this look at the issue with rose colored glasses, and consistently minimize the difficulties. I don't say that to be insulting, but it's obvious. People who are ambivalent to it (like me) look at it pragmatically, and can see a lot of the problems, and make the decision (for ourselves) that it probably wouldn't be good for the game.
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also why the assumption that it has to be done in a rush?
Why not let them do it a little bit at a time?
[/ QUOTE ]
*squeals the breaks bringing thread to a halt*
Hold on a minute!
Why the rush? Not really a rush, but let me just throw this personal experience at you.
When a programmer (most of them that I know anyway) gets busy on a project and gets into a groove the last thing they usually do is stop working on that thing to do something else.
Why? Because it throws them off, they lose their flow and train of thought.
I myself get stuck glued to the screen when I get an idea for a new project, it's very hard to pull yourself away when the groove sets in.
Ok, back to your regular scheduled posting.
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh I agree.
But I'm guess that breaking stuff into schedules is exactly what happens in an MMO. I don't think its possible to work on just one thing with an MMO "issue" scheudle.
I think MMO progarammign is a little different than regular programming.
but ofcourse having no programming experience, or mmo development experience, or knowing what cryptic's spaghetti code looks like, all this is talking outta my A**
[/ QUOTE ]
Well going off of what BaB had said, they would get kind of consumed with working on PC and the issues wouldn't be rolling out. So while they likely have schedules for content, in the programming world, they don't quite work like you'd want them to.
�Alas, regardless of their doom, the little victims play!� - Thomas Gray
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also why the assumption that it has to be done in a rush?
Why not let them do it a little bit at a time?
[/ QUOTE ]
*squeals the breaks bringing thread to a halt*
Hold on a minute!
Why the rush? Not really a rush, but let me just throw this personal experience at you.
When a programmer (most of them that I know anyway) gets busy on a project and gets into a groove the last thing they usually do is stop working on that thing to do something else.
Why? Because it throws them off, they lose their flow and train of thought.
I myself get stuck glued to the screen when I get an idea for a new project, it's very hard to pull yourself away when the groove sets in.
Ok, back to your regular scheduled posting.
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh I agree.
But I'm guess that breaking stuff into schedules is exactly what happens in an MMO. I don't think its possible to work on just one thing with an MMO "issue" scheudle.
I think MMO progarammign is a little different than regular programming.
but ofcourse having no programming experience, or mmo development experience, or knowing what cryptic's spaghetti code looks like, all this is talking outta my A**
[/ QUOTE ]
Well going off of what BaB had said, they would get kind of consumed with working on PC and the issues wouldn't be rolling out. So while they likely have schedules for content, in the programming world, they don't quite work like you'd want them to.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ya I remembered Bab's post after I posted what you posted in response to. 
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't think that it won't fit in the game engine. They HAVE implemented changes to colors. It is the time factor that is the hump to overcome. If, perhaps, the armachair designers postulated theories about how to cut production time, that might be productive. They know how to implement PC. They just don't know how to do it quickly.
[/ QUOTE ]
You're forgetting the other big hurdle to PC, Information Propagation. The reworking of the effects is the biggest hurdle, but it is by no means the only big hurdle.
When Issue 8 came out, a lot of people were spontaneously disconnecting on teams. As far as we can tell, it was happening because they had made a change that increased the amount of data being sent back and forth between players. Just one small change in the way the client/server passes data back and forth led to regular crashes.
PC would lead to a large increase in the amount of data being passed. Instead of shorthand that says "this guy has these 6 powersets, you know what those all look like go to town" the programmers need to come up with a way to pass that specific color info for each and every different power someone customizes, to every other player that can see it. If they do the bulk of it when someone loads into a zone, then you're looking at longer load times. And then they still have to pass fresh data when someone new comes in. If they do it dynamically there's a lot more data flying around. You think a Bots/FF can cause graphical slowdown now? Just wait until each rank of robot has custom blast colors, altered looks, and all the bubbles are customized for a Skittles Rainbow.
One of the strongpoints of the game is the speed of combat even when several players are around. Not just PvP, but PvE. Tinkering with that for the sake of new shininess alone is a dangerous Pandora's Box.
This is the crux of it: People who want this look at the issue with rose colored glasses, and consistently minimize the difficulties. I don't say that to be insulting, but it's obvious. People who are ambivalent to it (like me) look at it pragmatically, and can see a lot of the problems, and make the decision (for ourselves) that it probably wouldn't be good for the game.
[/ QUOTE ]
I can only speak for myself, but I have no problem with longer load times. Thats just me though, I know some would, I have also thought of the passing of info as a problem, just one I would be willing to deal with
Types of Swords
My Portfolio
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't think that it won't fit in the game engine. They HAVE implemented changes to colors. It is the time factor that is the hump to overcome. If, perhaps, the armachair designers postulated theories about how to cut production time, that might be productive. They know how to implement PC. They just don't know how to do it quickly.
[/ QUOTE ]
You're forgetting the other big hurdle to PC, Information Propagation. The reworking of the effects is the biggest hurdle, but it is by no means the only big hurdle.
When Issue 8 came out, a lot of people were spontaneously disconnecting on teams. As far as we can tell, it was happening because they had made a change that increased the amount of data being sent back and forth between players. Just one small change in the way the client/server passes data back and forth led to regular crashes.
PC would lead to a large increase in the amount of data being passed. Instead of shorthand that says "this guy has these 6 powersets, you know what those all look like go to town" the programmers need to come up with a way to pass that specific color info for each and every different power someone customizes, to every other player that can see it. If they do the bulk of it when someone loads into a zone, then you're looking at longer load times. And then they still have to pass fresh data when someone new comes in. If they do it dynamically there's a lot more data flying around. You think a Bots/FF can cause graphical slowdown now? Just wait until each rank of robot has custom blast colors, altered looks, and all the bubbles are customized for a Skittles Rainbow.
One of the strongpoints of the game is the speed of combat even when several players are around. Not just PvP, but PvE. Tinkering with that for the sake of new shininess alone is a dangerous Pandora's Box.
This is the crux of it: People who want this look at the issue with rose colored glasses, and consistently minimize the difficulties. I don't say that to be insulting, but it's obvious. People who are ambivalent to it (like me) look at it pragmatically, and can see a lot of the problems, and make the decision (for ourselves) that it probably wouldn't be good for the game.
[/ QUOTE ]
This post from Lemur (as usual) brings up some excellent points. In all the time we have been discussing (and amazingly) in the various threads PC has never been fully defined.
Just what does everyone mean when we say "power" customization?
Is it colors?
Is it weapons? It it the looks, shape and size of weapons?
Is it the look of powers?
Should you be able to customize the color of each MM bot?
Should you be able to customize the color of each part of an MM bot?
What of the bot's blasts? Shape of them, how large the are in diameter, length?
What of the color of a forcefield? How large it is?
Should be able to color the burst color at your feet when you speed into ss?
What of the Kheld's? How customizable should they be?
What of the pink pomps of death? Should those be customizable for blasts as well as melee attacks? Or both?
What of the transparency of powers?
What of the shape of kinetics tranfusion? Should you be able to alter its color, density, transparency?
The assumption that it means the same thing to everyone could lead to a lot of issues.
Also I think it terms of customization, I think some folks would not be happy unless they could customize everything I stated on that list above.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't think that it won't fit in the game engine. They HAVE implemented changes to colors. It is the time factor that is the hump to overcome. If, perhaps, the armachair designers postulated theories about how to cut production time, that might be productive. They know how to implement PC. They just don't know how to do it quickly.
[/ QUOTE ]
You're forgetting the other big hurdle to PC, Information Propagation. The reworking of the effects is the biggest hurdle, but it is by no means the only big hurdle.
When Issue 8 came out, a lot of people were spontaneously disconnecting on teams. As far as we can tell, it was happening because they had made a change that increased the amount of data being sent back and forth between players. Just one small change in the way the client/server passes data back and forth led to regular crashes.
PC would lead to a large increase in the amount of data being passed. Instead of shorthand that says "this guy has these 6 powersets, you know what those all look like go to town" the programmers need to come up with a way to pass that specific color info for each and every different power someone customizes, to every other player that can see it. If they do the bulk of it when someone loads into a zone, then you're looking at longer load times. And then they still have to pass fresh data when someone new comes in. If they do it dynamically there's a lot more data flying around. You think a Bots/FF can cause graphical slowdown now? Just wait until each rank of robot has custom blast colors, altered looks, and all the bubbles are customized for a Skittles Rainbow.
One of the strongpoints of the game is the speed of combat even when several players are around. Not just PvP, but PvE. Tinkering with that for the sake of new shininess alone is a dangerous Pandora's Box.
This is the crux of it: People who want this look at the issue with rose colored glasses, and consistently minimize the difficulties. I don't say that to be insulting, but it's obvious. People who are ambivalent to it (like me) look at it pragmatically, and can see a lot of the problems, and make the decision (for ourselves) that it probably wouldn't be good for the game.
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I can only speak for myself, but I have no problem with longer load times. Thats just me though, I know some would, I have also thought of the passing of info as a problem, just one I would be willing to deal with
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I would bet you a month's subscription that a majority of the palyerbase would scream bloody murder if load times were increased just for the look of powers.
(For reference, see what happened when issue 7 hit with its slightly longer load times.)
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
For me, it has meant the ability to choose custom colors for your powers. That, and the allowance of the possibility to change out some weapon models.
Just to clarify for me it means only changing the colors of powers.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
It's got to be more than just changing colors. Changing colors for some sets is lame or impractical since they'd never look right. Changing color for Earth Control? Plant?
Again, radical oversimplification on your part.
But anyway, while DarqAura said something pertinent, it misses the main thrust of my post. There's radical considerations and changes that have to be made when the programmers come up with a way to answer the following question:
How do we tell every other player in sight that Player A just fired off a Yellow fireball with green highlights, and Player B just fired off a Green Snowflake Freezing Rain, and do it in a way that doesn't end up causing enough latency so that they are lagged for the entire duration of the newly colored effect in the first place?
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
Sort of a tangent here, but related:
I remember, during beta, that we were asked if we wanted some place-holder 'tails' added now or something else which could be more finished. We all chose tails, now, so long as later they would get new art/graphics.
Apparently, they've yet to do this--though of course, they did add new tails. The old ones are still the same ol' place-holders. 
As for PC, at this point, I think it's no longer a question of feasibility but of profitability. They've already said it can be done. Now, it's just down to the money. Or, as explained in Farside:
Time = Money
Cal
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Also why the assumption that it has to be done in a rush?
Why not let them do it a little bit at a time?
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That doesn't really solve the problem.
The devs have stated that some people would have to spend so much time on PC that they'd get nothing else done for several issues. So that means over a year of work.
Let's say they just work on PC a little bit every now and then. Say, one day a week. One year just turned into 5 years. Is anyone here really satisfied a solution that gets us Power Customisation in 5 years?
Now lets say they devote more time to it. Those people who would be bogged down with PC spend half their time on it. That means we don't get PC for more than 2 years, and the things those people were working on all take twice as long. Nobody likes issues that skimp on certain types of features, especially when they do it several issues in a row. And nobody likes it when the issues get spread out to more than 6 months between them. We've seen both of these things in the past, so having worse versions of them would certainly be problematic.
Time spent working on PC is time spent not doing other stuff. Spreading that out over a long period of time doesn't change the fact that it's still the same trade off. The devs have looked at the amount of stuff that they'd have to delay to get PC, and they've made a decision. Perhaps that decision will change in the future. I'd love it if it did, but us asking for it a million times in a million threads doesn't really change the facts of the matter.
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I wonder though how difficult or possible it would be for the DEVs to write up a guide and mini tool set that would allow the more artistic in the comunity to create their own custom emotes, power animations, and costume pieces for injection into special "custom" powers/emotes/costume items that are availible only on the test server for customization users. The tools would basically alow you to "clone" a existing animation/object as the basis and inject your art in place of the default art on your test client. (Everyone else would see the normal animation/object)
This would not solve the programming side of the fence but it might give the comunity a chance to particpate. My concern is it may not be worth the time if there is not enough volunteers. So maybe if the devs surveyed the community beforehand. And if they can get enough skilled people willing to help. And if the tools necessary are easy enough. We might see some interesting content, rather than having endless discussions over when if ever PC is going to happen we might actually be voting for/against Lemur's new ringed lemur tail costume piece or YellowLass' bananna colored powerbolts.
For me PC means custom power colors and weapn models. i think custom animation is too much.
I will also admit that longer load times would make a large part of the populace poop gold bricks the size of a cow. I am just not one of them 
Types of Swords
My Portfolio
Whilte total color customization would be great, I'd be happy with just a few choices per powerset. Like Energy Melee (Red), Energy Melee (Green), and Energy Melee (Blue) or Broadsword (Classic), Broadsword (Tech) and Broadsword (Antique).
I wonder how many sets already exists for NPC use? Could be interesting to take a look at.
The blue Energy Melee is alredy in the game, likewise for red and white Energy Blasts. Of course, this means recoloring every powerset by hand and making a way to select different versions of the same powerset without clogging up the interface.
But alternate versions of the same powersets would be a-ok with me. Plus, this would cause no new information to be shared between players since it's just another powerset.
I'd probably keep some effects standardized, though. Getting healed should always be green, for instance.
Aegis Rose, Forcefield/Energy Defender - Freedom
"Bubble up for safety!"
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It seems to me like the easiest way to introduce at least some power customization would be to bring in a new Epic Archetype that had customizable powers. That way, we could get customization without the devs having to go through and add it to all of the existing powers.
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Good idea Bill, but doing it that way would mean creating a whole new powerset or 2, and that, combined with making it customizable, and creating an engine of sorts for selecting your colors, etc....may mean just as much time consuming effort.
Lemon, I appreciate your attempt to try and consolidate all of the PC quotes from the devs, as well as to quote the players who have tried to come up with implementable ideas on the subject. I do think, however, that Lemur's idea, for example, has been proven as unable to do, and I also believe that Slick Riptide's was the same.
Aside from that, I do hope people will confine their posts on the subject to this thread, if only to keep from the whole forum jumping on them.
Thanks!