Statesman speaks at serious games summit
By
2Negative,
Posted on: 2006-10-31 18:17 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
I think that items that you NEED to make a functional base should cost less. I also think that if your SG is small (Like Blade and Whistler or The Fantastic Four or Batman and Robin...or Superman as a solo hero) the costs should scale. Adding members should make the UPKEEP skyrocket.
I also think that MUST-HAVE base functions like power and storage should cost less, but the much more sought after items should be reserved for larger groups.
Make the practical attainable to everyone and the truly cool attainable with serious work.
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I love my base. It's awesome, and would be a very cool place to hang out. Unfortunately...No one hangs out there. Why? Because there's no reason to.
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Nail, head, bang.
The problem with bases is that although they are wonderfully customisable and can be decorated in all sorts of ways, they are isolated from the rest of the game.
I think the Devs expected people to appreciate bases a lot more as a social space where they could decorate as they pleased. But in that, they missed one of the fundamentals - if you're in your base, then you are NOT out having fun against the bad guys. Sitting in your base is much like sitting in the cupboard. It doesn't matter if the wallpaper is nice. It's still a cupboard.
Moreover, time invested in customising a base doesn't reward the player in any tangible way. Give a player a choice between investing time in earning XP and investing it in adding furniture to the base, and they'll usually choose the XP.
People are quite happy to invest money in building group identity. If Cryptic were to release a 'SG Pack' tomorrow for $10, which contained exclusive SG uniforms, SG base items and SG prestige powers, people would buy it. Bases don't contribute to group identity like they should, because people can't SEE them.
We can't even visit other people's bases without being teamed with them or in a coalition with them. How am I supposed to be impressed with SG X's base if I don't even know it exists? Because all of the bases are accessed through the same nondescript little portal, it's as if they exist in a parallel world somewhere that doesn't intersect that of CoX. Again, they end up being decorated cupboards.
And to be brutally honest, they don't even contribute to group identity all that much even when you CAN see them, because they don't say anything distinctive about the group that built them. Everyone gets to choose from the same set of items and styles. We can't even add our own text! (I made a suggestion that Plaques should be added to bases, with player contributed text - I can't see how this would be a problem.)
Why not add player statues, formed from a retextured static model of the character? Or player portraits, taken straight from our hero ID? If bases are meant to be about group identity, then give us more ways to impress our identity upon them.
Sorry, I have to add another 2c...
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Although bases are built by a team, Emmert and his team viewed them as being incredibly, incredibly individual because each piece of the base is designed and added by individuals.
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This just isn't so!
Bases aren't built by a team. They're built by the (usually very few) people who are given base editing permissions. Often this devolves to a single base architect.
Many people feel locked out of bases because they can't contribute. The only way they can help with the base is to earn Prestige, which just gets swallowed up by rent or by high prices - and after level 25, they have to sacrifice Influence to do that. The only way they can contribute is via a negative. They don't get to ADD anything.
<QR>
In considering Statesman's comments, consider his audience. He talked about what was relevant to the people at the Serious Games Convention, not to people who actually care about CoH because they invest time in it. These are two very different audiences - I read the interview as a.) Yes, Jack is a little out of touch, but b.) As it's not directed at us, we shouldn't assume it's the be-all and end-all of his opinion unless he says so specifically to us.
So someone get some guts and PM him. Me? I don't care either way, I'm not going anywhere, so someone else can do it. 
Bases are unpopular because they're not useful enough.
Basically you have maybe one feature which is used on a daily basis and thats the teleporters but frankly between things like the monorail, the pocket D shortcuts and such theres is very little need to use them unless you're going to a hazard zone or going from one end of the city to the other.
The medi-bays? Not that handy as you still need to run back to the mission. It'll be more useful once you have an option to reappear at the mission door you were just at.
Inspiration storage? Errr yeah, we know how handy that is.
Enhancement storage? Not bad, better for when you have a large SG who are interesting in sharing the wealth.
Salvage storage? Same as above.
As it stands there isn't much point to the bases to warrenty the kind of investment needed especially considering that on the gandscale of things they only benefit large active and well organised SGs which are, oddly enough, quite rare. So to your average user they're not all that handy. That will no doubt change once the invention system comes in as its been said that they'll have workstations that let you make things you can't get from the Universities.
When that is added the bases will start to become alot more popular but again it might be too costly for your typical group to maintain and thus the feature is again wasted. Empowerment stations are already a huge flop as it is.
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again the heroes need bases
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pony up the $ -5 you'd wind up paying for a copy of CoV in the bargain bin. You'll even get four shiny extra character slots to make more heroes with thrown in.
My characters - all on Virtue.
Gabe's Internet [censored] Theory
RMT spammers WILL steal your credit card.
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again the heroes need bases
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Pony up the $ -5 you'd wind up paying for a copy of CoV in the bargain bin. You'll even get four shiny extra character slots to make more heroes with thrown in.
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I *think* the GvE electronic edition also gives you the four extra character slots and access to villains and bases. And that's only $10.
Still here, even after all this time!
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The only rooms used are those that matter.. med bay, teleport room, storage rooms ect. Hardly ever is the prestige used to make a bedroom or a lab for example. Or even just a simple sitting room.
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In the year or so since CoV launched, I have yet to have any of my heroes join a supergroup where I was given permission to create these sorts of living spaces. As has been noted many times already, the biggest problems with bases is that the group leader is generally the only person who gets to have any of the fun of building them.
Star Wars Galaxies is the ultimate example of a "base building" game. Every player had the opportunity to own a house of whatever style, size, and floorplan she could afford. The ability to drop almost every piece of loot in the game in your house and assign it a position in space meant that everyone could be an interior decorator. People have built some amazing things in SWG, because they had the freedom to express their imaginations.
The closest thing I've seen in CoH is the Halloween Maze that was being built for last night's Halloween party on the Training Room.
You don't see that in CoH because there's no way to express yourself individually. We don't have apartments and single-user bases are prohibitively expensive. You can place objects in a single plane and rotate them in a single plane. You can't place them wherever you want or rotate them in three dimensions.
Instead, you're limited to providing the "financial backing" for someone else's vision. The base itself is nothing more than a place to pop into when you need a teleport or a quick rez and jump back to a hazard zone. It's not someplace that I'd normally spend any of my time just hanging out.
Didn't Statesman mention bases when talking about player apartments? Personally I'd love my own little apartment; I used to spend a huge amount of time tweaking my house(s) in SWG.
The problem with bases is that it isn't a personal thing any longer. Unless you have sufficient rank in your supergroup you don't have the freedom to personalise your base so even if the base looks cool (and some do) it isn't really YOURS.
Those who do have the necessary rank to run around editing bases then hit the other sticking point: expense, which has already been mentioned in this thread. And let's face it there isn't really a reason to go to the base other than to use the teleporter or grab stuff from the bin.
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You can't place them wherever you want or rotate them in three dimensions.
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And everything is huge and spacious, because otherwise, you couldn't PvP in it.
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You don't think teleporters are important? O.o
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Nope, not at all.
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Being in a coalition with a sg that had a good teleporter setup for the Numina TF (which requires you to go to EVERY FRICKIN CITY ZONE for a series of hunts) singlehandedly inspired us to finish setting up our groups teleporters. We still use them a lot, my friends and I tend to be on for short sessions together, so travel time may make the difference between getting 2 missions or 3 missions done.
And the ToT inspirations got me to set up bases for a few of our small alt sgs on other servers, because all these lovely medium and large insps were dropping but not needed in most cases for the actual ToT action. So we started storing them for later missions where we might need them (upcoming Statesman tf, for example). Aside from salvage storage for later costume slots. Until Halloween I'd never bothered to learn the base editing system, too busy playing.
Thank goodness for the new "on the cheap" options for small sg bases, that helped a lot.
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You can't place them wherever you want or rotate them in three dimensions.
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And everything is huge and spacious, because otherwise, you couldn't PvP in it.
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qft.
I would love to be able to toggle my base to non-pvp so i wouldnt have to worry about stupid pvp pathing.
Also, I like the idea someone mentioned about npcs raiding your abse. What if an option on the sg mission computer was a npc base raid? Have give xp, or maybe just have it work off debt. Make it a random groups based off of the average level of sg members present.
Jay Doherty: Yes, there was this one night that I was ready to go home but had to drop the browns off at the super bowl before I left for home. While on the throne it hit me. I stayed for a few more hours and that why we have the pain pads in the game.
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Perhaps he's referring to the huge amount of customisation you have within your instanced base. I don't think that both the levels of customisation AND having an instanced base is something that appears within any other MMOG - feel free to prove me wrong.
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Everquest II homes are easily as customizable as bases, but it has different limiters (having to deal with crafters to get the really cool furniture).
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
Heya Flamer,
Just to add some things to what you said:
First, and foremost, the devs HAVE to change the current SG system from 75 toons to 75 accounts.
Second, the devs should add a mechanism that allows two SGs to merge if their total membership < 75 accounts. All the prestige, bin contents, badges, and assorted loot would be preserved as well. Why is this important? Because I don't think the playerbase realized just how many active players are needed for a blinged base. With the active playerbase dwindling, this is going to be a big issue in the months to come. A LOT of prestige is simply evaporating from the game's economy.
Third, the devs have to start working on the bugs, from base crashes to the still-borked Items of Power.
Fourth, the devs have to add functionality to the bases beyond PvP. Why? Because so few people care about PvP. Bases in CoX are geared towards PvP, but the devs have consistently over-estimated how popular it would be.
Fifth, the devs have to make base raids work.
No comment about the cost of things because, frankly, I know nothing about that.
I remember, last year, when bases were new 'n' cool. But ... they were outlandishly buggy. Teleporters didn't work. The load times were awful. They crashed for no reason. Bases would disappear and have to be restored by GMs. They still don't do everything the devs promised. Most people simply stopped caring about them, and drifted towards SGs with close friends rather than the monster SGs the devs had planned for.
It also irks me that Statesman, at least in the article we're talking about, blames the playerbase for being too greedy to realize how fantastic bases are. He completely ignored Cryptic's role in all of this. If the CoP had shipped at release, there would have, at the very least, been some kind of reward for having a large base.
Warning, quite long
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Not a large base. But how about a functional base, that's worth the effort to build and maintain, for a (say) 5- or 10-person SG? An SG of peoplt who, like me, maybe play 5 to 6 hours per week, apiece?
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Well, that's been a bit more than I've been playing, lately, though I can't speak for the other active player, I may count him as three or four of those type of people.
Though it seems our alt addiction helps a great deal, most of our characters don't break 20, so they run more or less always in SGmode.
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Teleporters: the transit system in CoX is already so well designed, that itis rarely needful to have teleporters in your base. I think I've used the YP's teleporters ... twice. To try 'em out. Otherwise? even my sub-14's cn get everywhere they need to be as fast, if not faster, just by running there.
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I'd have to guess that one varies from person to person, it used to take me about 5 minutes to get anywhere in game, but with two teleporters it takes me maybe 3. Not a huge knockoff, but that's my higher level characters, my sprinters are loving being able to bounce around with them, assuming I'm closer to the base door than the place's door.
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Medical Bays: Let's see, I can go to teh Hospital, and *poof* I'm at 100% HP/E. Or I can go to the SG base, and - unles yet more prestige and salvage have been spent on multiple auxiliary parts - be at maybe 25% HP/E. Uh ... yeah ... not useful.
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When I die, I will have an empty inspiration tray. Unless I have a tray full of blues and die in one hit, it will be empty. So I stop off at our inspir bin on my way out, tp back to the zone, and enjoy my repeated beating of the guy who beat me.
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Salvage Bins: eh. I dump all my salvage into the SG's bin for only one reason: I won't ever, EVER, use it myself (until Inventions come into the picture, anyway). Otherwise? Useless.
Empowerment Stations: ... what a friggin' waste of salvage THOSE are. Count me the heck OUT, thanks.
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Ok, two people SG again, we have over 700 salvage sitting in that bin right now. I've started using the empowerment station simply because we're going to run out of places to actually put the salvage if we keep up how we're going. Some decent buffs in there if you go for them though.
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Inspiration Bins: ... if it were an Inspiration vendor, it'd be useful. Maybe. Assuming it sold ofr a discount, compared to NPCs. Otherwise? Good gods, why bother??
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I die, I rez at the med bay, I stop off at the inspir bin, I grab a handful of teir 3s(which I later replace) and make the sob pay. Synergy people, synergy.
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Enhancement Storage: riiiiight; so we're supposed to BANK those ENHs now, instead of selling them to make up for lost INF income? Uh, no.
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Or pile them up from everyone in the SG and not have to buy them, a large enough SG with a few trail blazers could never have to buy an enhancement again AND have almost none of the "weak" levels because of the enhancement spread of natural drops.
There are uses to this stuff, but it's not "OMG GIMMIE!" useage.
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Sorry, I have to add another 2c...
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Although bases are built by a team, Emmert and his team viewed them as being incredibly, incredibly individual because each piece of the base is designed and added by individuals.
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This just isn't so!
Bases aren't built by a team. They're built by the (usually very few) people who are given base editing permissions. Often this devolves to a single base architect.
Many people feel locked out of bases because they can't contribute. The only way they can help with the base is to earn Prestige, which just gets swallowed up by rent or by high prices - and after level 25, they have to sacrifice Influence to do that. The only way they can contribute is via a negative. They don't get to ADD anything.
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I'd say it goes even further than this. I've been running a little experiment for the past few months where I create an alt and pop into Mercy or Atlas and wait for the inevitable SG invite. I join and watch the SG behavior for a couple of weeks or so to see how they run things. In nearly all cases the majority of SG members are pre level 20, with the minority being the leaders who are higher level, though usually not above 40. Of the low level members the majority haven't been on it over two weeks and the higher levels not much more frequently. Usually after a week or so the low levels are purged and the recruiting begins again. Now the SG is full of new people that don't know each other. They're given the speech about earning prestige and then left to their own devices.
The cycle starts over. Some play, most don't. Last login numbers run into the double digits until a new culling/recruit session happens. It seems this process exists only to serve the leaders of the SG and that entry to that group within a group can be nearly impossible to gain. These SGs treat new members like day laborers instead of valued members that can contribute anything of meaning to the SG.
I have no idea how to fix this. Some people that lead SGs want their base and they want it now. If the price is to plow through one hundred new members a month then so be it. I know every SG isn't like this, that some still value the old methods of recruiting players that they've come to know over time. But I think those SGs are now the minority while the Prestige Mills, as I've taken to calling them are by far the majority.
A few ideas that might help. Have different plots.
1. Raid plots. These plots can contain any item and are only limited by the constraints now in place.
2. Non-Raid plots. These plots would be cheaper but wouldn't allow the placing of any raid items. If NPC raids were implemented these plots could do that.
3. Casual Plots. These plots would be even cheaper but would be limited in size and could only contain med stations, storage, and an SG computer. No NPC raids, teleporters, crafting or buffing stations.
I don't know that this would actually help, but I'd like to think that given a choice between base types and prices that more people would be inclined to put forth the effort to obtain a base. This might also help people that join an SG just for the base and have to pay the price of prestige mule. If they could get admittedly limited base functionality at a lower price they wouldn't need to join an SG for that reason alone.
"If I were two-faced, would I be wearing this one?"
- Abraham Lincoln
Dysmal wrote:
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People don't *hate* bases. They're *indifferent* to them. They are little more than a glorified storage and transportation system.
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Mjorn wrote:
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What bases really need is a way to get everyone involved, not just the architect.
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And I'd like to quote everything Lady_Sadako said, but I want to keep this short and readable.
Another big part of the problem, especially for casual players, is that the base editor is too fracking complicated. Editing a base =can= be fun, until you load up the editor and start freaking out that you might mess something up. Or that you can't put a room where you want to. Or that you need some item to power another item but you don't know what.
=Everybody= gets how to use the character creator. But for many people, the base editor and all attendant required knowledge is an entry barrier. "I'd like to play around with it, but oh well, guess I'll go run some missions."
--NT
They all laughed at me when I said I wanted to be a comedian.
But I showed them, and nobody's laughing at me now!
If I became a red name, I would be all "and what would you mere mortals like to entertain me with today, mu hu ha ha ha!" ~Arcanaville
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...I stop off at our inspir bin on my way out, tp back to the zone, and enjoy my repeated beating of the guy who beat me... I've started using the empowerment station simply because we're going to run out of places to actually put the salvage... I die, I rez at the med bay, I stop off at the inspir bin, I grab a handful of teir 3s(which I later replace) and make the sob pay... never have to buy an enhancement again...
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All good reasons to pass through your base, but no good reasons to stay there.
The real problem, IMO, is that there's never a reason to stay in your base for any length of time, so there's therefore no good incentive to individualize your base to any significant degree.
So yeah, bases do provide a lot of useful stuff, it's just that none of it is really intrinsic to the concept of a base. You might as well just pay a monthly inf fee and reap the same benefits from your normal UI. There needs to be something to do while in your base that has to do with the rest of the game.
Raids would be good (but only some people like PvP). Missions in your base would be better, IMO (everyone likes PvE).
I'm not saying they should get rid of the stuff in there now, because I do think it's good (or at least a start). I especially like the mission computer and enhancement bin. But again, they're just peripheral to the base itself.
bababadalgharaghtakamminarronnkonnbronntonner-
ronntuonnthunntrovarrhounawnskawntoohoohoordenenth ur-
nuk!
The base editor isn't really that complicated, once you understand power and control and what sort of things you need.
What is a problem, is that even in a trusting SG that hands out ranks like candy, you do not want more than, say 3-4 people working on the base. Any more and you're not going to be able to stay up-to-date with each other, and long term planning goes out the window as different people are deleting and crafting different items. Or you get the person who really doesn't understand the base editor and really does start messing things up.
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=Everybody= gets how to use the character creator. But for many people, the base editor and all attendant required knowledge is an entry barrier. "I'd like to play around with it, but oh well, guess I'll go run some missions."
--NT
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Makes me think they should consider adding an option at the login screen for a "base creation sanbox."
Prestige should be infinite, but tallied and readily available so you can get a sense of what your dream base would cost. All items should be unlocked so folks can play without fear of breaking anything and can see what they'd like to aspire to unlock. This should all be clientside, so we can play with it even when servers or our local connection are down. We should be able to save up to five (or so) of these base drafts.
This would be one means of introducing ALL players to base construction without interrupting the fragile virtual economic dynamics (or whatever it aspect of game balance they are trying to preserve with their timid reconsideration of base costs and accessability).
As far as all the other posters who say they are reticent to donate their time and prestige to someone else's vission, I've gotta say this: I've recently really gotten into themed groups. Some I'm a leader and founder of, in many others I'm just another ranking member. I don't mind giving my prestige because I love to see what sort of aesthetic the founders will come up with to reflect the groups theme. But I've found this, ALL these groups (from those with 10 characters to those with 50) seem to hit a donut hole gap right after we put in the nominal base elements of the startup room, single porter, etc.
I'd love to see them go back to bases after I9 and really give them a second overhaul; seriously dropping the buy in costs, eliminating rent (at least on all non-secure plots), adding at least a half dozen more design themes, and increasing the PvE functionality to a degree (hopefully to mesh with the invention system).
When this is all done, I'd find myself eager and willing to donate my time/prestige to see what others come up with in all these nice small, tight themed SG's and VG's.
The test server was actually great for that....until they took away the 36 mil prestige for starting a SG.
36 doesn't get you everything, but it was plenty to learn with.
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What is a problem, is that even in a trusting SG that hands out ranks like candy, you do not want more than, say 3-4 people working on the base. Any more and you're not going to be able to stay up-to-date with each other, and long term planning goes out the window as different people are deleting and crafting different items. Or you get the person who really doesn't understand the base editor and really does start messing things up.
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This is why we need individual bases. To reference SWG, again - You had guild halls, which were the equivalent of our bases and which were subject to the same sorts of restrictions as well as a group "bank" that corresponds more or less to the prestige bank we have. If guild halls were all anybody had, though, you would never have seen any development.
Of course, the motivations in SWG are different and this is where we get fuzzy. In SWG, a house has many uses. It's your living quarters; your personal space. It's a warehouse. It's a factory, where you put your crafting tools and organize your manufacturing facilities. It's a storefront, where you dispense the items you've crafted.
In CoX, the SG base is ostensibly a meeting hall, a transport hub, and now loot storage. I don't think you can reasonably call it a manufacturing facility; the only "manufacturing" that happens is for more stuff to put in your base. Even the invention system is something that takes place in another part of the game.
Individual bases have even less reason to exist, as the only reason a player would have one is because it's possible. There's no call to establish a storefront or support one's lifestyle in any fashion. It'd be strictly personal space.
Now, people in SWG have done some amazing things with strictly personal space. Museums, aquariums, fortresses, even caves and other weird interiors. That freedom to express one's imagination, however, is pretty unique to SWG and it's ability to put any object at all in any part of your house, and allowing you to custom create objects as well as collect a plethora of otherwise useless objects that happen to make good house decorations.
The other thing SWG has going for it is that houses are part of the environment. When you're running by a house that's marked "Entertainer's Memorial", you can step inside and see that it's a pretty cool shrine to hundreds of individual entertainers who have passed on their way due to deficiencies of the game. In Paragon City, you're never going to run by someone's museum or rec hall or community center or whatever, because it will always be an instanced zone with a "secret entrance" ala the base portal. It's not really a part of the city.
This was also my biggest complaint about personal housing in EQ2, despite the wide variety of furnishings and what not. For the most part, there was no reason to ever go up to a random door and look inside to see what the owner has done with his house.
Even if we get individual bases, or apartments, they're never going to be anything more than fluff pieces that nobody but our friends interact with.
What's really needed, as has been said many times in this thread already, is a reason to ever go to a base in the first place. Why aren't there missions that involve teams where part of the team is doing the muscle work and part of the team is in the base doing the support/leadership work? Why aren't there more base-specific missions, or more missions that involve using OTHER Supergroup's bases as locations? Maybe I can't really raid the base of the player group Super-Villain's Inc., but why can't I have an instanced mission that uses their floorplan as a PvE base raid?
In other words, why can't I get some motivation to visit not just my base, but the bases of other groups on both sides of the hero and villain fence?
In a world where I got any wish I would wish for, those would be my wishes for bases in this game. A reason to exist, beyond existing just because it CAN exist; an identity as an identifiable part of the surrounding city; and game-provided motivations to visit and spend time in my base and in other groups' bases.
What would totally do it for me is representations of every salvage in-game, much like SWG does for pretty much everything I can think of. If there's anything SWG did nearly perfectly that almost every other game has almost completely failed in, it's player-created content.
My first 3D MMo was Asheron's Call, and even way back THEN you could drop anything in your inventory on the ground and it had a physical representation.
When I first had access to the base editor in CoX I went in all happy and plunked down the biggest room possible and carved it into sections for me and my friends.
Then I went to try to place my salvage and was a little shocked to discover that you can't just plunk salvage on the walls. Not only that, but the pre-existing flavor items only had "tech" and "arcane" styles. Where's my rusty shelving for my abandoned warehouse?
The bases were, when I first came to them, a huge disappointment. My ideas and the Developer's ideas had very little in common. I was thinking "awesome, player created content!" and I only got half of what I felt it should have been.
Not to mention it's not so easy to "upgrade" your existing base. Right now our SG could upgrade a few rooms from the "startup" equivalents, but can't because it's too complicated. My operations room is basically the big center, with a small teleport, small workshop, and a small medbay. I SHOULD be able to just delete the big central room, plunk down a new room or too, and then drag the existing rooms over so they attach. You should be able to make base changes, then click "check for errors" and then "confirm change". Instead EVERY step is error checked.
because of this... the way I'll need to do it is this...
1. Grab all the stored salvage and enhancers (probably requiring 5 people),
2. Move my medbay to my entrance room, clear an entire wall (lots of junk to move and keep track of) so a doorway can exist.
3. Move my teleport room to connect to the Medbay. Again, lots of things need to be cleared off a wall.
4. Delete my workshop, because at this point there's no real way for me to attach it to any other room because of the teleport room's lack of available walls (to clear a wall means deleting my telepad, built from salvage that doesn't get returned to me).
5. Delete the command center.
Then I get the fun task of trying to fit in the replacement rooms, all the while hoping my prestige math is correct. If I'm wrong, then it's a huge pain getting stuff back the way they were.
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@Razoras
I have to find that bases... generally, are problematic for 2 reasons;
One has been mentioned - namely, too damn expensive! I also am not keen on rent.
The other - Its not a matter of "Putting money into a group effort" its "putting money into a group effort that then you can never actually effect how that effort comes out unless you are the SG leader". Ie: The only person expressing their individuality is the person who owns the SG.
I honestly don't care if they don't "do" anything - I think bases are neat - its just that it sucks that I can't *make* one unless I band together a group of people with me as leader. I just want my own ya know?
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