Statesman speaks at serious games summit
By
2Negative,
Posted on: 2006-10-31 18:17 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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But what's clear from this thread - and from many, many posts - is that bases are "too expensive". To me, that's interesting (as it is to the Serious Games crowd). Costume changes come with a minimal cost that no one really complains about, but we complain about the costs of bases. Evidently, the costs exceed the perceived value of creating one's own HQ (btw, I confess that many other games have the notion of personal property, but aside from Second Life, I don't think they offer as much customizability as our bases).
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States,
Star Wars Galaxies offers easily as much, if not more (depending on your pov), customization of a personal property space as City of does... and that game (SWG) is sucktastic by comparison. Quite honestly, the relative ease, low cost, and variety of options, along with the accessability, of the housing in SWG was always one of the more enthusiastically supported features of that game. In SWG, you could purchase a house for (in terms of game economy) fairly reasonable prices, and could decorate them to your heart's content. Dropped loot could be decorations (like if we could use Salvage just as fluff). Crafted items, etc. In fact, there were really only two types of "functional" items that could even be placed in player housing.. crafting stations and vendors. Houses were, by and large, purely fluff. But they were affordable, and easily accessable. Anyone could enter another person's house, so long as they had the locks set on "public" and see what had been done. That lent the same level of peer appreciation that costumes do in City of. Also, as mentioned, they were affordable.. even to the solo player. There were also PA Hall (ie, Guild Halls) that were akin to our own SG bases, and in those, usually only one or two members had 'admin' rights to edit them... but since the guild members all had their own space, too.. no one minded as much. On a larger scale, there were player cities, but that's getting away from comparable features.
Also, it should be noted that when SOE released their NGE to SWG, the removal of a locked target affected the ability of players to decorate houses. THIS, even though it affected only fluff, was a major complaint amongst the player community. That lends weight to the perceived value of something that is merely fluff, and shows just how important a feature like that can be to players.
Please take an in depth look at that system (my god, I'm actually promoting SWG.. 
) when searching for ways in which City of bases can be improved.
Thanks.
I think, and I say this as the final authority on this, or any other, topic, that the chief feature mising from bases is presence in the world.
A base may be expensive, or it may be tedious, or any number of other words which mean things. But fundamentally, if there is incentive, people will put in the time and try to find gropus which allow them to participate in a functioning base. The bases are just shortcuts--teleporters and hospitals, and don't have the kind of substantial player presence that a costume has.
A costume is a constant form of communication both to others and yourself which is realistically somewhat unique. The fact that you pick the thong bikini and the smallest top lets me know enough about you to make some pertinent decisions (like running far far away). If I see a kitten schoolgirl, then that lets me know what kind of game that person is playing.
The bases, on the other hand, are not only more expensive, and less unique, they're disconnected from the world. Furthermore, they are not worlds in themselves, but, typically, instead, tiny subsections of the indoor missions we regularly explore. We have no say about the landscape around our base, because the base is an anonymous box carved out of an infinite nothing. The devs have tried to offer a variety of objects to put in the base, it's nice of them to do so, but it doesn't have the same mix and match power of the costume creator, where the choice of color can help bring disparate elements together. The recent addition of banners helps, but doesn't solve the problem of the bases remoteness and anonymity.
If you take something like pocket D as an example. The VIP room isn't very popular, in my experience. Not because there aren't enough people to fill it, but because it's remote from the larger Pocket D environment. Even pocket D itself is less populated than Atlas, typically. Atlas is popular because it is pure lowest common denominator. Everyone has access, there is plenty of room, and plenty of social visibility. Galaxy city, which is only somewhat less open in its arrangement has drastically fewer people wandering around with their heads flapping all over the place like South Parkean Canadiians.
Now, Atlas is a cess pool of iniquity, but it's also alot of fun, and it's because of its hublike qualities. With supergroups, there can be no hub, because the bases are closed, somewhat generic, and floating in the void. It's the chief failure, I think, of most games with generic property. The EQ/FF approach to housing, where you have an apartment to yourself that you can get to from a door that everybody else uses to get to *their* apartment, is similar to the SG base approach, and its anonymity is in conflict with an MMO. You don't accumulate stuff in your cubby hole for your own satisfaction, you do it to share your perversion with as many strangers as possible. If you weren't interested in that premise, you'd stick to the cheaper Solitaire.
I think at the very least, in order to get bases implemented in CoH properly, you need to created outdoor instances which contain sort of commercial parks where SG bases are located near to one another. Either with those from an alliance, or failing that, with other generic ones. I think people who aren't in the same SG need to be able to rent space together to share costs, in a manner similar to an actual building. The outdoor environment needs to have the entrance to a few of these buildings, which is itself, customizable. And it needs to be something which, itself, can be customized, but contains features that are part of the world, like criminals doing various nefarious things. Perhaps the type of zone the SG can live in is a function of cost. Or maybe it's a function of the levels of th epeople in the SG. Regardless, the final step is to make these outdoor instances have tram hookups so that they're involved in foot traffic.
Obviously, while I *am* the last word in all things, I'm not entirely sure how to implement this so that you get all the key parts done and don't impose an undue burden on the coders. Or whatever. Insert placate here.
Another approach might be to rethink SG bases, and instead offer SGs the chance to have SG related things show up in city zones. For instance you might implement a customized SG vehicle which occasionally shows up in the traffic patterns of the city at random. Perhaps there's a king of the hill kind of situation that could go on where an SG's base gets to be a random hub. In other words, after a mission, you get deposited in a appropriately large SG base by default.
UO had the best sort of player housing--continuous in-world housing that everyone ostensibly had access to. In that environment, there were frustrating elements, like fraud and theft and so forth, but in the item-free environment of City of Heroes, that would be a nonissue. Ultimately, I think the development has to go in the direction of making new zones to fill with player property, like SGs, and making scenarios that bring people into contact with those SGs. Or else, consolidating the SG base concept into some kind of monolithic building, like the structures in Grandville, with rooms given over to SGs that can afford to rent one and remodel it. I don't think it's trivial, and I'm not sure, based on how much time you guys say you have to work on stuff, that it's doable in this game.
But as long as property exists in a little space outside the world, you can lower the price, incentivize until you pass out, and add feature after feature, but it won't have the characteristics which attract people to the game in the first place. Costumes are popular because they're social. Bases are insular.
I'm probably one of the biggest supporters of this game. I was happy when ED came around, even, if that says anything. But bases? Bleh.
I belong to one of the bigger supergroups on Victory (I think, anyway), and our base has everything. We've got teleporters and worktables of every kind, plenty of purely-pretty stuff, and... whatever else bases have. I keep getting lost in there, even, when I go in.
Frankly, I don't give a (insert colorful metaphor here).
It's not MY base, it's our base-monkey's base. I don't get to play with the layout or the design. It's like the Sims if you locked me out of the buy and build modes. Our base-monkey does an awesome job, but I'd care more about my awesome base than his flawless base.
Personal items are entirely opposite of what the name implies they are. They are just items that the base-monkey doesn't see on his standard list. They're his items that I pay for... And generally no one really wants people placing personal items, anyway. They're still expensive and take up space. With the salvage storage now, it's not even the members' place to make the items, just to contribute the salvage.
MMOs, perhaps surprisingly, in contrast to traditional games, are about the individual. This has been mentioned in the speech here, which I find interesting, because bases conflict entirely with that idea. Not only is their design promoting function well over form, but the requirements ensure that only 1/50th (as a best case, assuming that every single player is a member of a successful supergroup) of the entire playerbase gets to experience it in any meaningful capacity.
With that silly bit of bases being 'individual' aside, there is no reason to use the base outside of being a teleport hub. Everything else in the base (and even the teleport, to an extent, using Pocket D) is more readily available and better outside the base. The bases aren't even useful from an RP standpoint, given the bugs that lock people out or kick people from the bases.
Bases are ugly. The designer, though technically expansive and rudimentally functional, the room layout restrictions are clunky and, to risk repetition, tightly restricting. Objects are tightly attached to their grids, and glued to their space... their space that nothing else can occupy, no less. Everything is perfectly positioned and locked down and unnatural. Even the most ADD group of people wouldn't have their space so scientifically laid out.
In summary, bases are restricted to only a select few, as far as the 'fun' parts go, they are not pretty, there's little to do, and they generally don't work. There is nothing compelling about them, as far as an 'average' (albeit long-time) player like myself goes.
I don't know if they're a "failure", but I really can't bring myself to care.
Yeah, I'm colorblind, and I talk about it a lot. Sorry.
VICTORY: Zephyr Cyclone - 50 El/El/El Blast
VICTORY: Schysm - 36 SS/In Brute
VIRTUE: Galaxy Beast - 17 Warshade
Statesman. I really feel bad for you buddy. I don't know if I should laugh or cry. I think the playerbase has been more than patient about bases and the lack of attention to them by the devs haven't helped much. Yes, there have been some postive changes. However, for the most part, the more wanted requests have been pretty much ignored.
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Now, let's take a look at bases. Take away the teleporters, take away anything game related.
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Gasp, and watch how fast people over the level of 25 stop running in SG mode.
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As just a resource for expressing something unique, base creation is on par tech wise with costume creation. Admittedly, there's not quite the same amount of textures, colors, etc., but there's still a lot of versatility. And the layout possibilities are endless.
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Costumes and bases are apples and oranges. There is a LOT of cost to bases.
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But what's clear from this thread - and from many, many posts - is that bases are "too expensive". To me, that's interesting (as it is to the Serious Games crowd). Costume changes come with a minimal cost that no one really complains about, but we complain about the costs of bases. Evidently, the costs exceed the perceived value of creating one's own HQ (btw, I confess that many other games have the notion of personal property, but aside from Second Life, I don't think they offer as much customizability as our bases).
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They ARE too costly given the benefit of them. How about this as an idea, eliminate base rent! How about no more "tax" in SG mode for level 25+ characters?
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That's what the point of the talk was. I completely agree with many of the suggestions raised in the Base Construction forum, as well as one's mentioned here, would improve Bases to some degree or another. Posi and I go through them at length; really, it's just a question of time & resources. Some things would take astronomically long to do - or perhaps there's something else even more requested or popular.
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Well I am glad you came out, but there has to be more communication. I gave you guys two ideas that "should" be easy enough to implement. No, it doesn't solve all the problems, but it is a good first step. More communicating with us players on how to GROW the game would also be a good 2nd step.
H: Blaster 50, Defender 50, Tank 50, Scrapper 50, Controller 50, PB 50, WS 50
V: Brute 50, Corruptor 50, MM 50, Dominator 50, Stalker 50, AW 50, AS 50
Top 4: Controller, Brute, Scrapper, Corruptor
Bottom 4: (Peacebringer) way below everything else, Mastermind, Dominator, Blaster
CoH in WQHD
I've glanced through a lot of these and have to ask why costumes were being compared to bases? They aren't very similar, but if trying to force a comparison:
Bases aren't liked as: They cost too much, less see them, require a lot of work, require skill on top of that work, require player effort to their own detriment, are lacking info, don't give to solo players, if utilized to their fullest require pvp and possible loss of goods, and lastly require META-GAMING.
On price issues, people care little on costumes as we don't get free base tokens every week. If the SG had 20+ tokens to redo everything in it for free or skip rent of everyone's work for a week to be flushed, I'd complain less. So I will go ahead and put my /signed on the others saying bases/rent are too pricey.
Bases are work. Costumes aren't. I had someone drool over my nice base design, but when I answered how long it took with 8+ hours he didn't want one as badly anymore. To make a great looking base you have to make sure your rooms can fit, make sure to plan ahead for expanding the base or else you may have to redo rooms, can't let corners touch, have the funds, have the salvage, set appearances, manage power and control, learn object placement, have IRL design skill, etc. Oh and did I mention most crafting is done blindly so you have no idea if that Scrying Painting is worth it til it is too late? Costumes you can press random and be set.
The prestige/influence ratio and salvage drops are lousy. Losing 100% influence when people want SOs makes them not play in SG mode. The fact my long time alt with 53 million and 1000ish play hours could cash it in for 53k and not even afford a room is bad. If it were a 50/50 max, I'm sure most would be willing to go in SG mode. Also, with twenty or so active people in my SG, we don't have enough salvage to make much. Ooh, spend the entire salvage rack for one improved chill cannon! Um, no.
Bases have the CoP trial which sounds and looks nice. However, to utilize it means your SG has to be willing to pvp. I'm doing good to find ten people from all SGs in pvp zones at any time. CoX players do not love to pvp by large, and at the risk of losing a 1.5 mil base computer, they aren't going to be happy to utilize the base to its fullest. If it were having one IoP freely, but 2+ = raidable, then you'd see a lot happier people and more base love.
Lastly bases= META-GAMING. Building and working a base means that person is not playing while they do so. Your SG is having a blast, and you have to sit on your butt picking floor tile? Then you have to decide who is willing to do this task, who can be trusted with salvage, etc. I wouldn't expect many to jump on the bandwagon to play with a game outside of the game to play the game.
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It's not MY base, it's our base-monkey's base. I don't get to play with the layout or the design. It's like the Sims if you locked me out of the buy and build modes. Our base-monkey does an awesome job, but I'd care more about my awesome base than his flawless base.
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This is EXACTLY the issue I take with being one of those Base-Monkeys. When I'm locked down into design-mode, I'm in a friggin bubble and can't ask other people what they want. Hell I can't even see tells. ...And even if could, there's no way to SHOW anyone else all the options that are available. When I draw a picture, I'm pooling the content from comics and art communities to create something that's immediately appealing or atleast panders and what's popular there is OBVIOUS. With Bases, their components are unpoular or unnattainable(like that second Healing Badge? WTH is up with that thing??).
Sure, anyone can make something Aesthetically pleasing and then throw in the most practical items on top of that... But none of it's going to truly capture the theme of your SG and inspire other members or make them feel like they had anything to do with it. A sense of pride comes from accomplishing those things together where as most SG leaders simply accomplish it alone by recruiting Nubs through broadcast and farming Prestige. If there's one thing that Jack failed with on Bases, it's THAT failure right there, the failure to award SG's and Members through DYNAMIC contribution rather than through raw-volume.
I wish I could pass my "Base-Monkey" key to a buncha other people but everyone else is in the same damn Bubble when it comes to making only a couple-rooms that EVERYONE will agree on and feel inspired by... and the plots are all WAY too small to actually give EVERY Member their own personal quarters within it. ...I ask you, What the HELL are us BaseMonkeys supposed to do here?
I can see from the thread size that dozens of people have already responded to this, but I want to give my viewpoint while it's fresh in my head.
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As just a resource for expressing something unique, base creation is on par tech wise with costume creation. Admittedly, there's not quite the same amount of textures, colors, etc., but there's still a lot of versatility. And the layout possibilities are endless.
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Everyone else can see your costume. Not many other people can see your base, in relation to the number of people who can see your costume.
If other people aren't seeing it, I might as well mod levels for a single-player game, where I can access all the pieces without an ongoing investment.
It's an odd connection, but this is bringing to mind some of the points from the solo vs. multiplayer debates. I don't always want to actively be playing with people, but I want to be able to show off my accomplishments and admire the accomplishments of others. Costumes are something I can show off, while bases really aren't.
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But what's clear from this thread - and from many, many posts - is that bases are "too expensive". To me, that's interesting (as it is to the Serious Games crowd). Costume changes come with a minimal cost that no one really complains about, but we complain about the costs of bases. Evidently, the costs exceed the perceived value of creating one's own HQ.
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Huh? Maybe I'm alone, but most of my interactions with the costume creator are when I'm creating new characters, and that doesn't have a cost.
Even limiting the comparison to Icon, given both the offical influence-to-prestige conversion rate AND the practical influence-to-prestige ratio (the influence you're giving up for the prestige you're gaining by running in SG mode), combined with the fact that you can't effectively supplement your prestige-gaining through sale of enhancements or twinking from higher-level characters, is it any wonder that the cost of base building is felt much more keenly than the cost of costume changes?
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Let's turn to the idea of an architect. We foresaw that some people would feel alienated if they weren't the architect. That's why some things (Personal Items) can be "crafted" by individuals and placed in the base. But even if there's an architect: many super groups have a member who designed a single costume which all then use. In other words, they're more than willing to accept someone else's opinion in the group identity for their avatar appearance. Again, the primary difference is cost (I think).
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I suppose I can see how one might take this to....counter some of the obvious objections people have posed to the architect position. I don't think it's the same thing, though.
First, while I have seen these themed supergroups, I can count on one hand the number I've even heard about, let alone actually seen in-game.
Second, in the cases I have seen, the theme takes the form of some required costume pieces or patterns, but there is still room left for individuality. I have to admit here that I have no idea what Personal Items are or how they work, but I can't imagine that they leave much room for individuality or they would interfere with a base architect's layout.
Third, making a character to fit in with a themed SG only takes up one character slot; playing that character does not cause your other characters to decay, and playing other characters doesn't adversely impact the themed character.
Prestige generation doesn't work like that. It feels like I'm stealing from the SG any time I play a character who's not in the SG (a hero instead of a villain, or a character on another server, or just any other character if I want some alone-time from the SG). I can't try to work on a solo SG with one character while contributing to a themed SG on another character.
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I'm in a friggin bubble and can't ask other people what they want. Hell I can't even see tells. ...And even if could, there's no way to SHOW anyone else all the options that are available.
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If it's enabled in your Keymap, hit "C" to bring up your chat window while in the base editor.
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I love my base. It's awesome, and would be a very cool place to hang out. Unfortunately...No one hangs out there. Why? Because there's no reason to.
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Heh - reminds me of the cities in Asheron's Call 2. There was rarely a reason to visit them, so few people did. Of course, bases are much harder to get to - have to be teamed or in a coalition with one of the SG's members to see it.
I have to say, between the high costs for new base items, and the never-ceasing Rent, it is something of a drag. There are definite "plateaus", especially with smaller SGs that don't have a ton of people to rake in Prestige, where you're just saving for the "next big thing". The Supercomputer and Turbine Generator are a good example of this - it takes a long time to get 1.5 million Prestige, when you consider your savings are taking a hit to Rent the whole while.
When your group struggled and saved to reach the second Hidden Plot and get most of the "functional" items, and then you look at how many Plots sizes are left, you can't help but feel like your team isn't doing well. There's really not a good sense of progress in base-building.
You also have the issue of people placing crafted items, which can screw up the balance of Control & Energy. There's no way to simply deactivate items, either, so you have to delete it, which wastes the Salvage used to craft it.
I hate to say it, but bases seem like a half-finished element of the game. There's some good ideas and great potential, but it's not realized or implemented yet.
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But what's clear from this thread - and from many, many posts - is that bases are "too expensive". To me, that's interesting (as it is to the Serious Games crowd). Costume changes come with a minimal cost that no one really complains about, but we complain about the costs of bases. Evidently, the costs exceed the perceived value of creating one's own HQ (btw, I confess that many other games have the notion of personal property, but aside from Second Life, I don't think they offer as much customizability as our bases).
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The comment that the base's cost exceeds the value is correct, but only simply due to the sheer volume of prestige involved in having anything decent.
It's no that the bases aren't worth much or aren't any good. It's not that they're not fun or that they don't have value, it's the issue of knowing that to maintain the base the price of rent for anything larger than a small plot is such that it is required to almost farm simply for prestige unless you have a great big supergroup of really dedicated players who play almost exclusively in SG mode. It's doable to an extent, but the minute you start thinking in terms of having toys and gadgets and goodies and a larger plot you have to actually make the effort to go out and get prestige as opposed to merely collecting it by doing the content.
So, yes, technically the commen that the cost exceeds the value is correct, but it's only because the cost is so very, very high. The imbalance doesn't exist because the bases are low value it exists because the cost is so great.
Brother of Markus
The Lord of Fire and Pain
The Legendary Living Hellfire
Fight my brute!
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...But what's clear from this thread - and from many, many posts - is that bases are "too expensive". To me, that's interesting (as it is to the Serious Games crowd). Costume changes come with a minimal cost that no one really complains about, but we complain about the costs of bases. Evidently, the costs exceed the perceived value of creating one's own HQ (btw, I confess that many other games have the notion of personal property, but aside from Second Life, I don't think they offer as much customizability as our bases).
Let's turn to the idea of an architect. We foresaw that some people would feel alienated if they weren't the architect. That's why some things (Personal Items) can be "crafted" by individuals and placed in the base. But even if there's an architect: many super groups have a member who designed a single costume which all then use. In other words, they're more than willing to accept someone else's opinion in the group identity for their avatar appearance. Again, the primary difference is cost (I think)....
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Back when CoV first came out I saw many VG's form and fall assunder all over bases. I am sure its been mentioned but I'll add this in since you have hit the nail on the head:
1. Not everone runs in large SG that can build a respectable base. Granted the Oversight room and dual power/control item was a help (and I personally thank you all for that). I kinda think your alienating some of the many many small SG/VG's out there, and ofc they don't really utilize the base stuff..how can they when they can't afford it.
2. Maybe this has been changed since I last looked. At last look around 30+ you have option make influence to buy SO's or gain prestige for base... again another cost issue not easily resolved when your SG/VG is small in numbers.
3. Architect vs. player ... In mid to large SG/VG expect there to be an architect (naturally) and I don't suggest players won't go along with this to some degree. However what's the point in crafting salvage? Great you manage to gather enough to create 6 power things and can now create a teleport pad...only took ya 15 levels to get the stuff, but wait look around the base allready has teleport pad(s) in place and/or there is no room for your contribution *drat*.
Not saying all larger SG/VG's do this but many do pay outs for salvage collected..some just demand it be done. 
I realize ofc I9 and even now there are some things that can be done on a personal level.
Anywho would be cool to see cost reduced and/or more stuff like the oversight room. As you mentioned Statesman, the bases are pretty cool stuff and alot of work went into them..be a shame not to allow folks to see that.
"Does that mean the game is "no fun"? Nope...In other words: meh, it beats hell out of doing the dishes. But it's no where near as fun as it was."-ScionofSatan
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In reverse: the cost for bases is, for some, extraordinarily high. Its extraordinarily high not for any numerical reason, but for a more subjective one: earning prestige - at high enough levels - steals influence. The cost of earning prestige isn't a numerical one, its a critical playstyle one: try to earn prestige, and you can find yourself unable to buy that enhancement you need. That cost crosses a critical threshold where the cost impacts normal play. Once it does that, there's no amount of carrots you can dangle that will make people not resent the cost. They may *incur* the cost, but they will always resent it.
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To follow up on this: I'm not sure if this is what you had in mind, but I wanted to bring up that for some players (myself included), having to join an SG is a huge cost in itself.
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Here's the writeup of his speech.
The only thing that jumps out at me - he claims bases are unpopular because people don't like paying money to contribute to group identity. I don't think that's correct. I think they're unpopular because
1) they're too expensive for casual players, and
2) they don't have anything to do with our day-to-day activities in CoH/V.
Now,
- make them cheaper
- let us place NPCs, scriptable bosses, and a scripted win condition in them
- let us open them up to other players to run as missions
- get raids working
and see if that makes them more popular.
*waves magic wand*
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I think he is right. A costume is me, a base is a group of people, some of which can't get a say and the others can totally edit others' work.
That's why I wish personal residences could somehow get integrated - it gives the best of both worlds.
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Here's the writeup of his speech.
The only thing that jumps out at me - he claims bases are unpopular because people don't like paying money to contribute to group identity. I don't think that's correct. I think they're unpopular because
1) they're too expensive for casual players, and
2) they don't have anything to do with our day-to-day activities in CoH/V.
Now,
- make them cheaper
- let us place NPCs, scriptable bosses, and a scripted win condition in them
- let us open them up to other players to run as missions
- get raids working
and see if that makes them more popular.
*waves magic wand*
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since this thread is on page 10, it may now resemble nothing like the Ops post, but I don't feel like wading thru 10 pages, so responding to the initial concept.
I know some people feel this way, and I agree *some* of the base items are too expensive (plot upgrads being the worst offender) but I can't disagree strongly enough with "2) they don't have anything to do with our day-to-day activities in CoH/V."
For myself, and others I know - bases have added a whole new dimension to the game - and losing them for a week for our alt SG on Victory - drove that home. And I run an SG of predom casual players, and help lead another thats for alts, so all bases have taken time to grow, and enjoy.
Besides mundane stuff like the pride we feel, and a place to sometimes meet up, day to day items like storing and buying inspirations, the HUGE bennie of storing and sharing SOs, being able to rez in the base, telepads, empowerment stations -all of these have *very positively* changed our game experience, and allow us in the end to spend more time enjoying the game, and less time in mundane things.
For myself, and many SG mates and Friends, the addition and evolution of bases is one of the most incremental positive changes I/we have seen and while I am the first to throw rocks about stuff, I can't thank Posi and team enough for them.
(costumes on the other hand, despite his post in this thread....meh, lol.)
Reading through the thread, I see some of my concerns have been mentioned; but not all, so I'll give my views.
1) Documentation. I don't find the base editor intuitive at all, and I have never found really good documentation at it. When I wanted to add a teleporter, I had to search the forums for a basic recipe to get it working; and subsequently I made somebody else in my SG do the architecting. (And I *really* don't know what to do with salvage... it seems so complicated)
2) Piecemeal, not all or none. The above documentation is not helped by the requirement that the base be consistent at all times; with the costume creator, I can make a number of changes and see how they work and how expensive they are before I commit. And because I can earn multiple slots, I can always keep my original costume, and save changes to a scratch costume. (I also can try out costume changes even before I can afford them, since I pay only if I commit to it -- I wonder what I could do with a secure massive plot, but I have no way to know if it's worth grinding for it).
3) Commitment. But with bases I get only one base per SG, and they're a lot more complicated to write down and save for later. If I want to waste time at 3am editing the base, and then get opinions from my SG the next day... well, I have no idea I'd be able to restore it if they don't like the aesthetics. And thus I don't.
4) Cost. It's not so much the individual pieces' cost that disturbs me, but the upfront cost of expanding (which ties in to the piecemeal one edit at a time above). If I want to substantially rearrange the base (even just to swap some rooms), I have to either delete and re-create rooms, or upgrade to a much larger plot. Of course, my SG (while earning enough for decently functional base) cannot afford to get to a larger plot -- which also means we can't do the CoP, because we haven't the room for a vault. The limited plot sizes stink.
Tied in with that is the idea that prestige is tied in to the SG I belong to. I have a few characters who I might experiment with the base system in individual bases, where I'm not going to screw everything up for everyone else. But they don't have the prestige to do anything right away, so they're more valuable joining a friend's SG and letting -them- experiment, using the bonus prestige for new members. Inherently the system limits who will be able to experiment with a base.
Task Forces shouldn't need 8 people to start ... it's not fun.
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Of course, the thing that has always stuck out to me the most is that the most fun aspect of bases is limited to a very small portion of the playerbase: building the base. It's a lot of fun to design and put together a base, but unless I'm a leader of a SG or appointed architect, I'm never going to get to experience this. Between the way it's currently set up and Cryptic's refusal to add individual bases, they've essentially spent a ton of time putting together an excellent feature that few get to play with.
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QFT.
If you have 100 SGs with 75 players per, that's 7500 players in SGs. However, more than likely only one person in each SG is the base builder/decorator. That's 100 out of 7500 players. That means 7400 people are just the financial backers. It's kind of frightening when you look at it that way. And he wonders why they aren't popular?
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After reading 2 pages I have to agree with Valkyrie about how much I am amazed how people don't get bases, or SGs for that matter...
I don't know a single SG on 2 servers where its 75 unique players, or even half that - it only takes 8 people to completely fill an SG with alts; the average active full SG is more like 12-20 players, fyi
Jack I sent you and Posi PMs before about this, and this is why I believe bases aren't as popular as you would like:
I don't get to design a base.
I am just a basic member of my SG. With costumes, I get full creative control. In order to build my own base, I would have to quit my SG. You mentioned SG uniforms, but these uniforms are usually optional and only worn on certain occasions.
I would LOVE to be able to make a personal base, and I've mentioned my idea of how. (All decoration items free, you can buy bigger plots for influence.) Please, PLEASE let us make our own bases, I would spend HOURS using the base tool, but right now it's not even an option. 
The base builder needs some more practical functionality to it as well. Im thining of a simple save and reset type of thing. Why? Heres an example
When building my base i didnt really plan it out much, so its not that efficient. I however put a lot of time and effort into the way it looks, putting down decorative items, changing lighting, specifing textures and colors. However, because i put all this in there, i cant really experiment on my base anymroe. I cant rip it all up and try out a completely differnt layout.
If i could hit a button and save my base, so that later when i was finished i could simply revert it back, then I Wouldnt have to worry that deleting the teleporters jsut cost me a bunch of salvage, Or not being able to delete my insp bin because its full of tier 3's. Or ahving to log on multiple toons to hold all teh salvage so i can delet the salvage racks.
Now for a completely difernt view, we look at the costume creator. If i take my level 20, and go to icon, I can mess around with allt he costume options without having to worry about price. If i decide i dont like it(and havnet already purchased it) i can simply hit cancel and im still in the costume i was in before i went. Bases by their very nature stymie creativity. We *cant* play around wiht differnt layouts whenever we want without risk of losing alot of stuff. We *cant* try out all the differnt options from just a layout pov. And thats a problem.
Jay Doherty: Yes, there was this one night that I was ready to go home but had to drop the browns off at the super bowl before I left for home. While on the throne it hit me. I stayed for a few more hours and that why we have the pain pads in the game.
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But what's clear from this thread - and from many, many posts - is that bases are "too expensive". To me, that's interesting (as it is to the Serious Games crowd). Costume changes come with a minimal cost that no one really complains about, but we complain about the costs of bases. Evidently, the costs exceed the perceived value of creating one's own HQ (btw, I confess that many other games have the notion of personal property, but aside from Second Life, I don't think they offer as much customizability as our bases).
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Jack, you not been playing attention to what your team been doing with CoX. They been give out free costume tokens for most events. I have not payed to change my costume in like a year. Remove the cost to make bases and your see people making a lot more Bases.
This is a service-oriented business, and it's all
about keeping the player happy over the long term.
So you have to listen and pay attention. If a large
portion of your playerbase is screaming about
some change, you be wise to listen. - Raph Koster
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The non-sequitur and, in fact, the violation of Godwin's Law, is yours. I specifically stated at the start of my post that I refer to Fascism specifically in the context of politcal ideaology. I did not refer to Hitler, Nazis, or the 5th Column for that matter. You, on the other hand, were the first to mention Nazis and/or Hitler simply by linking to the Godwin's law reference.
So there! 
Cryosteel
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I don't think your analogy holds water. But I don't feel like typing out a rebuttal, so I'll defer to Clintonian's rebuttal, since he elaborated on a point I was trying to make with one sentence. Clintonian probably says it better than I could anyhow Call me lazy.
Edit: sp
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Of course, the thing that has always stuck out to me the most is that the most fun aspect of bases is limited to a very small portion of the playerbase: building the base. It's a lot of fun to design and put together a base, but unless I'm a leader of a SG or appointed architect, I'm never going to get to experience this. Between the way it's currently set up and Cryptic's refusal to add individual bases, they've essentially spent a ton of time putting together an excellent feature that few get to play with.
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QFT.
If you have 100 SGs with 75 players per, that's 7500 players in SGs. However, more than likely only one person in each SG is the base builder/decorator. That's 100 out of 7500 players. That means 7400 people are just the financial backers. It's kind of frightening when you look at it that way. And he wonders why they aren't popular?
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After reading 2 pages I have to agree with Valkyrie about how much I am amazed how people don't get bases, or SGs for that matter...
I don't know a single SG on 2 servers where its 75 unique players, or even half that - it only takes 8 people to completely fill an SG with alts; the average active full SG is more like 12-20 players, fyi
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Um...if you're referring to ValkyrieRising's post, she was talking about the devs not getting it, not the players.
As for my quoted post above; the main SG I'm in was nearly full of unique players. Only a few had alts in the SG, and they'd drop those if someone new wanted in and there was no room. Personally, I wouldn't want the prestige burden of being in an SG with only 8 players and their alts.
Also, if the average SG is down to 12-20 players, that says a lot right there about the state of the game. Bases certainly didn't draw players together as the devs had hoped.
There will always be people that like what others dislike, or like things as they are and see no need for change. But 28/29 pages in this thread, with most posts listing things they dislike about bases tells me there's a real problem, even if you don't see it that way.
I rarely enter any base in any SG I belong to. I really have very little reason to. If you enjoy them, and spend a lot of time there, I'm happy for you. That still doesn't change my perception of not needing, or liking them, and my continuing to not use them.
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In other words, they're more than willing to accept someone else's opinion in the group identity for their avatar appearance. Again, the primary difference is cost (I think).
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Humans relate to spaces. Spaces are really very important and not like anything else in human experience. Comparing a space (virtual or real) to something else is fairly silly.
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Third, making a character to fit in with a themed SG only takes up one character slot; playing that character does not cause your other characters to decay, and playing other characters doesn't adversely impact the themed character.
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More to the point, a SG costume takes up a single costume slot. You have three others. You put the skin of your costume on the model you designed (especially since the advent of physique sliders).
I just can't drum up any interest in a base. I rarel, if ever, went in them when I was in a SG. I am now a very happy independant superhero. My costume on the other hand I look at all the time. For me it really is that simple.
Bases are ugly, unwieldy, expensive, and only useful in cutting down travel time.
Costumes are fun, unique, always visible to yourself and everyone around you, and cheap.
Probably all said before though.
=^.^=
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The non-sequitur and, in fact, the violation of Godwin's Law, is yours. I specifically stated at the start of my post that I refer to Fascism specifically in the context of politcal ideaology. I did not refer to Hitler, Nazis, or the 5th Column for that matter. You, on the other hand, were the first to mention Nazis and/or Hitler simply by linking to the Godwin's law reference.
So there!
Cryosteel
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I don't think your analogy holds water. But I don't feel like typing out a rebuttal, so I'll defer to Clintonian's rebuttal, since he elaborated on a point I was trying to make with one sentence. Clintonian probably says it better than I could anyhow Call me lazy.
Edit: sp
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I don't really think it does either, but it is a starting point for people to think about why earning prestige so 1 or 2 folks can build a base doesn't sit right with the American mindset.
To simply say that it's not right, without thinking about why, is truly lazy.
As for the in my post, I was trying to be lighthearted. My appologies if I offended.
Cryosteel
Cryosteel 46 ice/ice Blaster
Bonfire Blaze 25 Fire/Fire Blaster
Dream of Shadows 25 Staff/Willpower Scrapper
+ 17 alts
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To boil it down, what I was suggesting is that we, as Americans, have an innate abhorrence of working primarily for some one else's gain.
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Agreed, with an edit.
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Political ideologist and contemporary philosopher John Rawls once proposed a thought experiment aimed at developing a new social contract. Rawls suggested that you imagine yourself in an original position behind a veil of ignorance . Behind this veil, you know nothing of yourself and your natural abilities, or your position in society. You know nothing of your sex, race, nationality, or individual tastes. Behind such a veil of ignorance all individuals are simply specified as rational, free, and morally equal beings. Thus, the key is that people make decisions based on what is good for their community as a whole, and without regard to their own self-interest (since they operate behind a veil of ignorance and don't know enough about what would benefit them).
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Rawls has a point, but I'm more comfortable with Rousseau's thoughts on the 'social contract'. Humans tend to be barbarians with a thin veneer of 'civilization' on us that tends to wash off in the metaphorical rain, so I'm more simpatico with philosophers who've survived through bloody revolutions in the streets. Rawls tends to strike me as a little too idealistic and sanitary, but he's a good read to even a visceral, bare-knuckle amateur philosopher like myself.