Statesman speaks at serious games summit
By
2Negative,
Posted on: 2006-10-31 18:17 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
The costumes are shared and shown off to everyone, our bases aren't visible to the community.
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I think there's some misinterpretation here - or my speech wasn't clear.
Let's take a look at costume creation. It's been embraced beyond belief by players...we have in game costume contests and events organized by you the players...Some say it's the best part of the game. The single most requested item in CoH is to make the costume creator standalone...
Intestingly, costumes have no gameplay value. They don't boost damage. They don't boost resistance. They don't boost defense. They're only for show.
Now, let's take a look at bases. Take away the teleporters, take away anything game related.
As just a resource for expressing something unique, base creation is on par tech wise with costume creation. Admittedly, there's not quite the same amount of textures, colors, etc., but there's still a lot of versatility. And the layout possibilities are endless.
But what's clear from this thread - and from many, many posts - is that bases are "too expensive". To me, that's interesting (as it is to the Serious Games crowd). Costume changes come with a minimal cost that no one really complains about, but we complain about the costs of bases. Evidently, the costs exceed the perceived value of creating one's own HQ (btw, I confess that many other games have the notion of personal property, but aside from Second Life, I don't think they offer as much customizability as our bases).
Let's turn to the idea of an architect. We foresaw that some people would feel alienated if they weren't the architect. That's why some things (Personal Items) can be "crafted" by individuals and placed in the base. But even if there's an architect: many super groups have a member who designed a single costume which all then use. In other words, they're more than willing to accept someone else's opinion in the group identity for their avatar appearance. Again, the primary difference is cost (I think).
That's what the point of the talk was. I completely agree with many of the suggestions raised in the Base Construction forum, as well as one's mentioned here, would improve Bases to some degree or another. Posi and I go through them at length; really, it's just a question of time & resources. Some things would take astronomically long to do - or perhaps there's something else even more requested or popular.
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I have to disagree on two major points: one, that the issue with bases is a cost/benefit issue, and two, that bases are even remotely as customizable as character costumes.
Second one first: bases are *not* as customizable as character costumes are. As Lady_Sadako says, we wear costumes, but bases are hidden. But I would go farther: even if bases were publicly accessible, there are additional problems:
* The average person cannot as easily "admire" the design of a building from the inside. When you talk about "architecture" the average person can much more easily admire the external structure of a building from the outside, when they can take the structure in. Admiring the "layout" of a base from the inside is actually not quite as visceral an experience. Its really like roaming through a museum: you can admire the pretty things in it, but its not quite as easy to admire the layout of the building itself, unless you actually have a mind for architectural layout.
In the absence of being able to "take a layout in" layout is really much less distinct of a thing than the functional description of the base. Teleporters on the right, med bay on the left. Change the number of squares to the right or left, and you still have the same base, even if its architecturally distinct. More technically: people are much less interested in the explicit structure of a base in general, and more interested in its general topology.
* When people admire our costumes, generally, we're actually there. Even if people could view our bases, we aren't likely to be there to discuss it with them. We're likely to be actually out playing the game. Costumes are something that can come up in casual converation. Base architecture, not so much. So there are much fewer social opportunities to engage in meaningful base architecture dialog. What customization that exist doesn't propagate well to social interaction.
More critically, there is the issue of cost/benefit. The idea that the problem is a cost/benefit issue implies there are two ways to solve the problem: reduce the costs, or increase the benefit. I contend that the root of the problem is *not* solvable by increasing the benefit of the bases by any reasonable means, and therefore even if the cost/benefit ratio was significantly reduced by massive increases in benefit, there would still be approximately the same resentment to the costs.
The reason is one of threshold. Question: if I give you a choice between a guaranteed chance at one dollar, or a fifty-fifty chance at ten dollars, which would you take? The average person would probably take the fifty-fifty. And that makes sense: the expected benefit is five dollars, much more than the one dollar sure thing.
But if I offer you a guaranteed chance at ten million dollars, or a fifty-fifty chance at one hundred million dollars, this is a different story. Probability-wise, its the same game, but the numbers don't in fact have the same actual value. Ten million dollars is life altering. One hundred million dollars is life-altering just with more Ferraris. Many people - perhaps most - would take the ten million, and pass on the chance at a hundred million. That's because the ten million crosses a critical threshold where the net value is so high, it cannot be passed up.
In reverse: the cost for bases is, for some, extraordinarily high. Its extraordinarily high not for any numerical reason, but for a more subjective one: earning prestige - at high enough levels - steals influence. The cost of earning prestige isn't a numerical one, its a critical playstyle one: try to earn prestige, and you can find yourself unable to buy that enhancement you need. That cost crosses a critical threshold where the cost impacts normal play. Once it does that, there's no amount of carrots you can dangle that will make people not resent the cost. They may *incur* the cost, but they will always resent it.
The problem is not the cost/benefit ratio. The problem is the intrinsic trade between influence and prestige. Costumes do not have quite the same problem for three reasons. First, you don't have to decide what you are going to spend your influence on while you are earning it: you can choose to spend on costumes or not, without altering your playstyle either way. Not true for prestige, where you have to commit to earning one or the other, at least for stretches at a time. Second, beyond a certain point, the cost for costumes becomes exceedingly small, as the amount of influence you can earn becomes increasingly large. So the problem with costumes gets better over time, not worse. Bases, though, as they evolve and become larger and more complex, become increasingly more expensive relative to the amount of prestige you can earn. And third, costumes don't cost anything beyond the initial outlay. Bases do: bases have rent. The first time someone couldn't change costumes because they don't have enough influence, you would see a firestorm of complaints that make the base complaints look like cheerleading by comparison.
There is even something fundamental about how we view costumes and bases that I think override all of this. We identify with our costumes, they are a part of who we are. Bases are much less so. I think the average person will recognize the (in general) stronger identification with their clothing over their homes. Psychological experiments have demonstrated that there are certain situations where we will strongly self-identify with inanimate objects: for example, when driving cars. Much of road rage seems to be linked to the fact that we don't separate what other people's cars do to our car, and what the drivers of those cars do to *us*. Our language hints at a deeper connection: people cut *me* off, not my car; they hit *me*, not my car. This even happens in supermarkets with people and shopping carts. We identify with what we control, and our CoH avatars are no exception. That leads to identifying with what those avatars wear, because its what *I* am wearing, not *my character*. Bases do not have that fundamental psychological linkage, and so they are treated much more functionally. They simply do not have the same psychological "cover" to be non-functionally valuable.
In effect, on top of being much less expensive, much less restrictive in special costs, and much more customizable in actual fact, costumes are, when you get right down to it, not rational purchases, because they have value far beyond any material accounting. But you cannot "create" that psychological attachment where it doesn't exist, and it doesn't exist to that degree for bases. So bases will be viewed much more analytically by the player base, as a question of what it costs, and what its benefits are. But as previously mentioned, the costs are not just weighed numerically, they are also weighed against more intangible issues that are no less important to the playerbase, and even though they are subjective, still factor into a "rational" decision making process.
I think if you are attempting to generalize some sort of lesson between bases and costumes, seeing them both as just examples of "customization" you're going to end up with faulty conclusions. There are large unresolvable differences in how they are treated and work, that numerical tweaking alone cannot reconcile. The real lesson that bases and costumes teach is that you cannot dictate what people will find important, and what they are willing to pay for it. That level of social engineering is simply beyond what you should expect to be reasonable.
One note regarding "architects." We accept SG leaders setting the SG costume because we don't *pay* for the SG costume, and because we aren't required to wear it continuously, and because its really just a variant of our costume(s). That is not even *remotely* in the same category as players who believe that since they *pay* for base construction, they should have some *say* in its design. But Cryptic chose to make bases require 75 payors but only one designer. And even if you could design collaboratively, 75 people trying to design one base is ludicrous to expect would work in general. If bases had small customizable "apartment" rooms that players could have sole discretion on design for, separate from the base as a whole, *most* of the "architect" problems would probably go away. Because not many people really care where the teleporters are, they care that some part of the base reflect their personality, fully under their control, in exchange for actually funding the base itself.
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wonderfully said!!!! here! here!
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The single most requested item in CoH is to make the costume creator standalone...
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I find this shocking. I thought the single most requested item would be new content followed by, specifically, post-50 content.
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You'd be surprised how many people haven't hit 50.
You probably wouldn't be surprised at how many people have rolled alts and had to come up with costumes for them.
--GF
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I think you missed the first half of the point and went straight into the second part.
FYI - I have 2 accounts with 24 characters on Champion alone. I'm bored to death with the content in the early levels. No variation.
Nothing in the above response addresses the argument the post poses: content in general.
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Ok so here's a question Lady_Sadako >.> I think you've got a good point here - but how do we make them more visible without running out of landscape nor having people in our bases when we don't want them there?
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I don't mind having people in the base. It's not like they can harm anything.
I suggest an option to make the base publicly accessible, and a point from which we can enter all publicly accessible bases. For example, a 'visit base' button could be added to the list of SGs that the guy in City Hall shows you.
Cost isn't the issue nearly so much as exposure is, IMO. Why would people invest in something impressive if nobody else ever got to see it? To use a silly example, would people bother with elaborate costumes if other players had to arrange to wear special glasses in order to see them?
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The base portal could be updated to include a SEARCH function similar to the player search. Open the window, at top it lists "Your Base" below are "your coalitions" last "search for SG base"
Another way to make bases more interesting would be to have a zone that displays various new building types to represent SG bases (I had hoped for this in the updated Faultline). Now add a bit of recluse Victory to the mix. Have each building linked to a spot on the top 100 SG list. As positioning on the list changes, the SG symbol on the corresponding Base changes. The Symbol could be over the door, on a view screen, or on a sign/plaque. Entrance into the base doors could possibly even allow access to the Linked base (probably more time consuming and difficult to code than worthwhile but its an idea).
As an alternative to the top 100 list, since new SGs have little chance to actually attain this, the Devs could host a monthly poll for best base design for each server. The winners could then be linked to the buildings. Limit fraudulent voting by tying the vote to account or character.
My base
http://cityofhellfire.com/gallery/Ci...ayout_10_30_06
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The single most requested item in CoH is to make the costume creator standalone...
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I find this shocking. I thought the single most requested item would be new content followed by, specifically, post-50 content.
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"New content" is a given, but an overly broad term that the company likely doesn't track. I wouldn't be surprised if, over time, an offline costume creator is technically the most popular specific request. It's about the only thing that a majority of people would agree on being entertaining, though most wouldn't put it in their top three of the top ten things wanted.
I recently saw the CoH-Korea offline costume creator torrented with the english hack info included, so there's still a smoldering interest in something like that.
Ya' know ...
I think it boils down to something pretty basic:
Bases aren't cool enough to warrant the hassles inherent in having a 30+ account SG.
There's not enough room in the main SG for alts. Personality conflicts. Scheduling conflicts. Different priorities (prestige grinding / PvP / PvE / Missions / SFs). People leave. People come back. People shift from CoV to CoH.
*shrugs*
I'm the base monkey for my SG. The base editor is probably my second favorite element of CoX, and I've easily spent 50 hours editing my SG's base. And though I also love making costumes, there are many, many differences between the two. Aside from the obvious visibility and personal/group issues...
--1) There is no piece of my costume that I can't get back immediately if I decide to try out a new piece. If I want to see if I'd rather have a ley tap or a turbine generator, I have to destroy one to see the other.
--2) I can click 'back' to immediately undo every costume edit, or 'reset' to undo any piece. If I decide that, having moved everything in the base, I really just like the way it was before, I have to manually reposition every object, sell and rebuy every decoration, etc., etc.
--3) There's no costume part that requires playing Tetris to fit with the other costume parts. Since there's no 'off plot' storage space, if I want to swap the infirmary and the workshop, I have to figure out at least one, usually four or five, intermediary configurations that keeps everything connected while still leaving me room to place the next room.
--4) There's never a costume edit I try that is rejected by the costume editor. If I want to change my costume bottom, it's done with one click. If I want to move my medbay across the plot, I have to move every object away from the walls of the medbay and the room I'm trying to attach it to, and then hope and pray that the base editor will allow me to make a doorway where it seems like one will fit. If one won't fit, it won't allow the move, but it won't tell me what stupid piece of the base is blocking the edit, leading to hours of trial and error. It's usually easier to delete the room entirely than it is to try to move it. But if said room has crafted items, that's a no go.
--5) Almost every costume part is immediately unlocked and available. Bases have been out a year, and the Fusion Generator is still not unlockable. My SG has been around 10 months, and we still haven't unlocked the 2nd level infirmary upgrades.
If the base editor is like anything, it's like selecting your powers as a newbie. The descriptions of power effects are only marginally helpful, just like the descriptions of base items. What's the range of an elite chill cannon? How big a room will it take to fit the AES? Does having multiples of this item stack the effects? These are questions for which there are no documented ingame answers.
The ingame help is purposely vague, just like power descriptions, and thus almost useless. How many people thought Jump Kick would be a useful power when they read the description? How many people thought that the energy curtain would work on their turbine generator? There's no way to find out that Jump Kick sucks or that the energy curtain won't work other than 1) trying it out yourself or 2) heading to the forums, where dedicated players do the jobs of the game designers and provide documentation.
Love the SG/VG & base side of the game, I just wanted to outline things I think might help SG/VG & bases. Some ideas are repeats other stuff might be new. Hopefully it's useful.
Not so quick & simple:
1. STOP punishing the higher levels. At lvl 25 it begins but making people choose between influence/infamy or prestige at 35 is just plain wrong. People worked hard to attain these levels and it is discouraging. They should not have to make this choice. In fact they should be able to earn more, call it the reward for getting to level 35. This would also take the burden off of higher levels to recruit lower levels into there groups. This is where bases just fall down for me personally. When I recruit it should NOT be based on there level or that I need them to grind prestige to either pay rent or buy new goodies. I want to recruit someone because they are looking for a home and they are a good fit into our group. What is the harm of 5 hardcore level 50's creating a giant base?
2. Let us get rid of the notion of the "Glass Ceiling". I understand the concern that larger groups will hit it and have nothing else to do after and might quit. That is where the developers need to step up and add new content for those that have "everything". Instead of creating a ceiling that is virtually unattainable and only frustrates rather then inspires people to attain. I will outline some ideas below.
3. Communication & Participation is everything in a group. Please help us do this with some much needed additions/changes.
a. Promoting/Demoting offline players, so basic yet we can not do it.
b. More space for "Message Of The Day".
c. E-Mail, that allows me to mass mail everyone in the SG with a one click.
d. Bulletin boards in the base. Sounds simple enough but we need permissions. So a board could be used by the leaders and another by everyone else. Better yet, another board for the Coalition. Where anyone from the Coalition may post announcements such as "TF This Saturday at 6" or "Group A is looking for specific salvage". You get the point.
4. I think the future will be smaller groups, The recent changes now makes a personal apartment attainable. I am bit confused why people are still looking for "apartments" when it seems to me this can now be done. So if that is the future you need fresh innovative ways to inspire people to join large groups or attain one.
a. The biggest carrot you could hold out is visual plot space. Weather it's an area in a zone or a new zone altogether. Give the top 50 or 100 SG/VG's there own physical plot space, maybe it's only the top 10. They can decorate the outside as well. Is this a technical nightmare? Probably, but this really gives people the incentive to aspire to be large SG/VG. Of course you need to be careful how you handle someone who looses there zone plot. The system needs to save there outdoor design so they don't have to start from scratch if they get there plot back.
b. Use the Mission Computer! Why are there not more missions in this thing? Or tailored on SG/VG size? How about missions that have members defending the base against a horde of NPC enemies? Think the community has given a lot of feed back on this item.
c. Multi level bases. If you're a big group you should be able to add levels.
d. Mascot/Temporary Pet. If your a big group you can attain a group pet or mascot. This little gem can hang around the base or better yet spawned into battle. As a member of a big group you can use this mascot as a temporary pet. Balance it though. Pet can not go into the PVP zones and can only be spawned once a week or month. Perfect world, the pet can be designed by the group. Pets to complex? Fine, how about a special weapon or both!
5. Create Incentives for people to use the base, not enough yet.
a. The long list, again plenty of ideas. Arena Terminal, better Med Bay, Training Rooms are some. My own thoughts, Enhancement store. Maybe not to buy anything but an Enhancement store to sell. Also to add a twist, a portion of the sell is donated back to the group in the form of prestige. Make the choice where someone could actually sell an Enhancement and donate the total proceeds in the form of prestige to the group. This would also help people contribute more and ease the burden of constant level grinding to assist there gorup. You could also apply the same to inspirations.
b. Personal Lockers. Yes, sometimes people want to store something and get it back. They have a locker & there name is on it! Store whatever they like in it.
c. Fix up the Empowerment Station and make it really useful for members to use. Maybe even add an element where the leaders of a group can create a buff/temp power that the WHOLE group gets for a period of time. I am not talking hours but more like days. It has to be balanced of course.
d. Global Storage. Exactly what the name implies, storage which is shared across your coalition. Each SG/VG determines who in rank has permission to use it. It would not be the same storage we have now. It would need to hold greater volumes of items. Also, consume more space & of course each group would have to buy one. Again, there is a way to balance this one.
e. Secured Rooms & Personal rooms. Rooms that we can lock up and only certain ranks may enter. Personal rooms are rooms that we designate to a member that THEY may decorate or lockup as they wish. However, they do not have global base editing rights. Only editing rights to that special room.
6. Changes & Fix.
a. A bug that boots people out of the base. How long has that one been around? COP Trials are offline. Some SG/VG emblems that don't display in the base. Plenty of others. When bugs go this long with little information or ETA on the fix it tends to turn people off to the development commitment of this side of the game. A little communication and acknowledgement go a long way.
b. Permissions. Mentioned in other threads. We need to assign access rights to the storage, this all or nothing solution leaves our bases open for theft. Now, I know that if someone wants to steal they are going to but this will cut down on the problem. We need to be able to open some storage to everyone and lockout others types. Such as inspiration access VS. salvage access.
c. Can I please have an option to TURN OFF the floor & ceiling trim. We should not have to move objects to make the trim go away.
d. BIG ONE! Personal Items. Sorry this is a very flawed system. All items which are crafted should go into a SG/VG inventory which the "base editor" can then place. This inventory MUST be accessible to everyone to view as to avoid crafting of things already built. Maybe even explore a way to create a global inventory which a Coalition may move crafted items into this system which base designers could access.
Lots of other ideas but my little brain hurts so I hope at least some of these things are useful. In closing, I like PVP and you guys have done great on all the PVP zones. My personal opinion is that PVP should get a break from new additions and a bit more love given to this side of the game.
The other problem with bases is that they're, well, just a bunch of boxes fitted together, if they looked like for example the Council bases or a Crey lab I wouldn't of minded.
Also the bit about how people don't like making money for expensive bases only to have the SG "leader" make all the design decisions is no different to how almost all of CoV feels, villains seem to pretty much work for "other" people, like Arachnos for very little gain even if by the end of it you are deemed to be your "own" villain who rules their own destiny by Recluse himself, well too little too late you've pretty much reached the end of the PvE content by that stage.
Heroes have a very defined role and purpose in CoH you do things because you are the hero and bringing villains to justice is a very big part of that, although it is linear to a degree it still feels like you are effecting change by yourself or with your team mates.
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To me, that's interesting (as it is to the Serious Games crowd). Costume changes come with a minimal cost that no one really complains about, but we complain about the costs of bases.
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Because the costs are minimal!!!! Listen to what you say. We have near limitless Influence at a point in this game and limited ways to spend it. Of course people are going to throw it around on Costumes, contests, etc.
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Evidently, the costs exceed the perceived value of creating one's own HQ (btw, I confess that many other games have the notion of personal property, but aside from Second Life, I don't think they offer as much customizability as our bases).
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Since costumes and bases utilize two different currencies, you must boil costs down to time invested to acquire. Since many players have access through alts friends/sg-mates/random acts of kindness to influence generated by higher level characters, you must use that time investment.
The amount of time required to be invested in garnering prestige is NOT worth the value for establishing a base beyond the basics. What is more, the risk of losing base items in Raids and the cost in time and effort to regain is NOT worth the value of having an IoP and risking our stuff. The time and effort required to build the equipment that would preserve our base items is NOT worth the value we gain from preserving it.
Also, people need to fund their own endeavors and not everyone likes to feel like prestige whores. Forgive us if your vision of us playing our high levels to earn influence and giving it to the lower levels while they spend their lives in SG mode doesn't work for everyone. It may be the optimum min/max strategy, but as you guys point out (ED), not everyone min/maxes so why are you building this part of the game around min/maxers?
Scale prestige rates for higher levels (not to the extent that infl does) or decrease costs. Its pretty simple.
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many super groups have a member who designed a single costume which all then use. In other words, they're more than willing to accept someone else's opinion in the group identity for their avatar appearance. Again, the primary difference is cost (I think).
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Actually, I disagress on the cost issues. I think the primary difference is the fact that to my knowledge, most SGs have a SG uniform that is not required for regular wear, only used for designated SG events and such, so individuality is preserved except for those times when conformity is requested and required (the exception, not the rule). In fact, many individuals inquire whether the SG uniform is required wear on their characters as a condition of joining (they won't if it is). Some SGs that have requirements only have color (not costume) or a "part" (hat, chest logo, etc.) as a requirement.
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I can only speak for myself, but I would be all over bases if they were something I could build on my own, per character, not with a supergroup.
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I keep seeing posts like this, and I guess a lot of people are still just uninformed. I have a personal SG base, just my nine alts on Virtue are members, and I've been working on it for several months. Great fun, actually.
I use the base 8 x 8 plot and currently have in my nine decorated rooms:
3 salvage storage
1 mid-lvl tech empowerment station
1 basic arcane empowerment station
2 inspiration storage
1 enhancement storage (I put HOs in it mostly)
1 telepad with two beacons (I switch them out as needed)
Total cost so far for my base: about 1 million prestige. That is not prohibitive for a single individual who plays his alts regularly, it just takes a few months of saving up (and that prestige gift of 20k per member during the double xp weekend helped a lot).
And I plan to add weapon and AV trophies after Issue 8 goes live. My personal base has really re-energized my interest in my alts and has provided me with a "higher purpose" beyond just seeking levels for my characters.
Personal bases are here now for everyone, and are not too expensive if you allow yourself a few months to get one built up.
My only regret is that I cannot invite people in to take a look or to chat, they get auto-booted out if they aren't in the SG or a coalition member.
As a side note, the empowerment stations make the most sense for a single-player SG, since I'll never have a need to build anything with salvage after I get the top-level empowerment stations.
While most of the resistances the empowerment stations provide are too small to be of much use if you aren't a tanker (5% is hardly empowering), they do provide solid knockback, fear, and slow resistance, and increases to attack rate and travel speed.
The empowerment station buffs should be fixed to stack as originally planned, so we can get (at least) 15% resistances, although I suggest that the resistance buffs be boosted to 10% per station, and the duration should stay an hour as exists now.
Goldbrick 50 inv/ss tank
Other 50s: Power Beam, Rocky Mantle, STORMIE Agent, Matchless, Major Will, Knightmayor, Femstone, Space Maureen, Crimebuster Ako, Dr. Twilight, Doc Champion, American Gold Eagle
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I can only speak for myself, but I would be all over bases if they were something I could build on my own, per character, not with a supergroup.
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I keep seeing posts like this, and I guess a lot of people are still just uninformed. I have a personal SG base, just my nine alts on Virtue are members, and I've been working on it for several months. Great fun, actually.
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Yes, because with some of the new changes (the combo control/power room in particular).
But for a larger group, that needs a secured plot to be able to do IoP raids, PvP or just to fit the schwag that a 35-50 person membership would expect in their base needs prohibitive amounts of prestige and if they don't continue to generate it after achieving their desired base, won't be able to affrod the rent.
I agree the pricing works well with 1-2 man groups and with those who want to require their membership to prestige [censored] themselves.
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I keep seeing posts like this, and I guess a lot of people are still just uninformed. I have a personal SG base, just my nine alts on Virtue are members, and I've been working on it for several months. Great fun, actually.
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Now do this with a single *character*. Not all of us have spare alts to throw into it (most of my other alts are already committed to SG ... I want to have a private base for one, but not at the expense of my other characters' supergroups).
Task Forces shouldn't need 8 people to start ... it's not fun.
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I keep seeing posts like this, and I guess a lot of people are still just uninformed. I have a personal SG base, just my nine alts on Virtue are members, and I've been working on it for several months. Great fun, actually.
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Now do this with a single *character*. Not all of us have spare alts to throw into it (most of my other alts are already committed to SG ... I want to have a private base for one, but not at the expense of my other characters' supergroups).
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It would just take longer. I started with a single (free) room myself and expanded rapidly from there by adding a 2 x 2 workshop (100K) and then putting in various storage items.
And I doubt if a majority of people have all 12 characters on their favorite server tied up in SGs. You are attempting to render my points invalid with a worst-case scenario that most people won't find themselves in.
If you are in a number of SGs, you are hardly lacking in SG base resources. Coalition your personal SG with all of your other SGs and use their teleporters, that way you only need to build a single storage room.
Goldbrick 50 inv/ss tank
Other 50s: Power Beam, Rocky Mantle, STORMIE Agent, Matchless, Major Will, Knightmayor, Femstone, Space Maureen, Crimebuster Ako, Dr. Twilight, Doc Champion, American Gold Eagle
Speaking of elitism, to the individual who replied to my comment about not being a social studies teacher with "it shows."
Allow me to clarify something: I am in favor of elitism. That said, nothing about CoX's bases is elitist. To claim otherwise is to deny facts in evidence: it is possible, as shown here in this thread, for small groups, even individuals, to have decent bases. If you can't achieve that it isn't because it's impossible. It's because you haven't made the effort. It is not unreasonable that bases require some effort to construct. Or are you prepared to argue they are, or should be, an entitlement?
I would like to believe that you simply saw an opening for a quick bit of humor and took it. If that is not the case, then show me the evidence to suggest that anything I said about socio-economic philosophy or political ideology was incorrect.
All of it was incorrect, except arguably the definitions. There is nothing fascist about bases or supergroups, any more than it is "fascist" that your house was likely not built by you personally. Your supergroup is what you make of it. If you join a supergroup and find it's run by some tin-plated dictator with delusions of godhood, leave and take everyone worthwhile with you. If base design isn't reflecting the desires of the group, turn off supergroup mode until the designated architect comes around. If they throw you out, see previous answer. The only actual power SG leaders have is the ability to kick people out, the abuse of which hurts them more than anyone else. They have no ability to make members do anything the members don't want to do, no means of coercion (at least in-game). If your supergroup is fascist it's because you and your fellow members have made it fascist. Yes, democracy will take some effort. If it was easy, we wouldn't have police states.
It is important to remember that a lot of these groups are being run by kids (and yes, even most of the older teenagers are still children) and the only model of authority they are familiar with is parental. If adults are going to hang with kids in online games they will probably have some educating to do.
Otherwise, stop assuming that because a man chooses to teach in a certain subject area, he must be limited in education and perspective to that area alone.
I'd certainly expect a teacher to recognize the difference between criticism of an opinion and a personal attack.
As for the rest of the thread, aside from comments regarding actual bugs (like the kick-out bug, or the non-working raids) I don't see any compelling criticisms. A lot of people are complaining about the lack of personal space, but bases were never intended to be personal spaces. They are group content. Personal housing would be nice, but if we have a choice between that and, say, new zones I'll take the new zones, thanks. At the end of the day, housing is fluff, not content. Bases, currently, are fluff and will remain so until they become a functional part of PvP (which I, personally, couldn't care less about anyway).
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
I read this thread thoroughly on Friday and tried to digest all of the good stuff here. I wanted to give some responses to your points & questions. I know Posi and I are constantly thinking of ways that we can improve bases; our eyes are glued to the Base feedback on these forums!
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Obviously because the cost of bases is not 'minimal'
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Bingo! That was the point of my presentation; that the cost exceeds perceived value. The current ability to customize a social space for ones Super Group isnt thought to be high enough to justify the Prestige amounts.
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Ya know what another thing I just thought of would help too?
PVE base raids that you could bring non-SG members on.
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Heck, Id just like the PvE base raid part first!
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And they're hidden away, effectively in their own dimension. Other people can see my costume and go 'wow' simply by my flying past. To see my base, they have to be in a coalition with me, or on my team while we go there (and for that to happen, we need to have a reason for them to go, other than me saying 'come check out the base'). They can't simply happen across it and go 'wow!'
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Interesting point! Some people can see your base, but its so much easier for people to see your costume.
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Few people care about the aesthetics of bases. It's just not obviously an expression of one's self, especially if it's been designed by 20+ people, or by someone else. That's the crucial difference between costumes and bases.
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If no one cares about the aesthetics of bases, it all comes down to function ... and there's not a whole lot of function in there.
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But costumes dont provide ANY gameplay function and people care a WHOLE lot about them? My point: bases cost too much for what players think they deliver. What they currently deliver is the ability to create a social space for Super Groups thats potentially customizable to the groups theme/background/etc.
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Cryptic has failed to deliver an advertised feature of CoV in a working format a full callendar year after the game went live. Had the Cathedral of Pain and Base Raids showed up in anything vaguely resembling a timely manner, there would probably be a much higher level of interest in Bases, despite the flaws in the system that many posters have listed here. For whatever reason, whether it be lack of staff resources, focus shifting to other priorities or indeed other projects at Cryptic, this is a pretty big failure on Cryptic's part.
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You are absolutely right. We are working as hard as we can, but that doesnt excuse it.
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The reoccurring theme in this thread isn't you folks at Cryptic perpetrated some horrible sin, but that in making a post-mortem of the Bases feature implementation you seem to emphasize it's lack of popularity is more due to the fickleness of players, than the bugginess or kludgeyness of the product. There's several prominent functional design flaws and bugs with Bases that have yet to be fixed, in addition to some conceptual flaws. To the company's credit, you have begun to address them, but the finish line is not just around the corner.
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We(Cryptic) assumed a certain value to bases which clearly doesnt match up with players perceptions. We assumed that customizability, some gameplay features, layout control, etc. would be considered worth X, but players think its X-Y. That means WE were wrong. No fickleness involved, just something we didnt identify well.
But it shows human behavior (and this was the point of my talk): people LOVE individuality. Theyre willing to express it. But they wont consider (in game) it worth a lot of time/effort to create a space thats customized for group identity. Clearly, people dont mind group identity (hence, super group costumes) and they love their own personal costume creation.
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A point well made. Jack's comparison of bases to costumes is wildly off because I control my costume. I help pay for my base, yet none of it is my creation.
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Yet a Super Group costume isnt your creation, either. And yet people wear them. The counterpoint is, of course, that a Super Group costume is in addition to ones normal costume, not instead of. Theres no such personal property in the base. We thought (on paper) that the personal items would do the trick, but it isnt really the same thing, is it?
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Heck, Id just like the PvE base raid part first!
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(O.o) Wow... (^.^)
And I swore I'd never use those new emoticons.
Edit: if this is a hint of things they're working on, then count me pleased as hell.
bababadalgharaghtakamminarronnkonnbronntonner-
ronntuonnthunntrovarrhounawnskawntoohoohoordenenth ur-
nuk!
I think I might really like bases again...
Statesman wrote:
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Theres no such personal property in the base. We thought (on paper) that the personal items would do the trick, but it isnt really the same thing, is it?
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Not really, when it can be essentially destroyed by someone else. That makes one hesitant to place personal items in the first place.
--NT
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But I showed them, and nobody's laughing at me now!
If I became a red name, I would be all "and what would you mere mortals like to entertain me with today, mu hu ha ha ha!" ~Arcanaville
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Cryptic has failed to deliver an advertised feature of CoV in a working format a full callendar year after the game went live. Had the Cathedral of Pain and Base Raids showed up in anything vaguely resembling a timely manner, there would probably be a much higher level of interest in Bases, despite the flaws in the system that many posters have listed here. For whatever reason, whether it be lack of staff resources, focus shifting to other priorities or indeed other projects at Cryptic, this is a pretty big failure on Cryptic's part.
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You are absolutely right. We are working as hard as we can, but that doesnt excuse it.
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I am glad that you guys acknowledge this, and I'm impressed that you agreed with my asssesment of the situation.
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Thanks for the reply Statesman. This is one of the things that has aggravated me (and many others for some time). There is a basic formula that is seriously off as far as I can tell.
I have X amount of hours to play each week. My SG can only have 75 characters currently. Not players, characters. Because I only have X amount of hours to play and therefore bring in prestige, most SG's do not want more than 2 or 3 of my characters in them. So I am caught having to choose which character I play and consequently use to contribute to the SG.
However, it has been clearly stated that the goal of 50 being the level cap is to promote altoholism. I embrace this although I understand why some don't. But the cost of many base items is so high as to run counter to this goal. I'm either stuck picking and choosing which alt I use and which SG to support, or I miss out on content by not being in an SG.
So I am pleased to read your comments, and hope to see some changes made on this front soon. Thank you.
One thing that would add the personal level would be a "Member suites" option. It shows up as a wall item, that looks like an elevator door. Clicking it, a menu appears with all members of the group. You can visit other people's suite, or in your own edit it.
Member suites are a 2x2 room, with their own prestige allowance (say, 20K) which they can spend on purely ornamental items. Additional items that would be great: display cases with souveniers you have received, maniquines with your various costumes, etc. While it has the same issue of being hidden, it at least is personal.
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Interesting point! Some people can see your base, but its so much easier for people to see your costume.
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Thanks. 
Please give us the wherewithal to make our bases open to all comers, States. Every base that someone can just happen across is a surprise for them, and potentially fun for us, too.
Today, I built a nuclear reactor. I took a 3x3 Oversight Center, sunk the flooring in the centre and raised it elsewhere, put Tech Pillars around it, put four Quantum Stabilisers in the middle, added four Tech Lights in a deep recess above, turned all the lighting down to nearly zero but for a bit of blue 'Cherenkov Effect', then added the combo power/control station near the doorway as the control terminal for the whole thing. It looked superb, and I was proud of it. I would love for someone to just stumble across it and go 'Wow, that's cool, I didn't think of making one of those!'
Here's another point about adding text plaques so we can put bits of text in our bases: when people see us from afar, they can read our bios, our titles, our badges and our names. That identity speaks for us without us having to do anything. Being able to contextualise our costumes gives those costume pieces meaning. (For example, if I cover myself in the Plant costume options but have blue skin and call myself Marine Maiden, then that 'plant' texture is instantly understood as seaweed, rather than ivy or some such, and people understand the effect.) Bases have no equivalent. Someone wandering through my base can't see how I think of it, or why the layout is the way it is, or what the different bits are supposed to be. Give us the ability to add text, and we add context. That enriches the whole base-building process massively.
So, open-to-all bases and text input are the two things I think we need most, and I'm hoping they wouldn't be too hard to add.
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Theres no such personal property in the base. We thought (on paper) that the personal items would do the trick, but it isnt really the same thing, is it?
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No, and I guess it's clear why not - personally crafted items have too much weight attached. Because they are tied in directly to critical issues like power, control, salvage expenditure and (of course) Prestige spending, any player who tried to place one on their own initiative would be throwing the whole plan out of whack. Besides, there's nothing personally distinctive about a crafted item.
Now, what if a 'personal item' was a portrait of the character, crafted using a minimal amount of Salvage, and cost 50 Prestige? Or possibly a badge-unlocked sculpture or something equally frivolous? Or even a statue of oneself? If Generic SG Member Man gets to add something to the base that doesn't take anything away from it (as crafted items do now) then that's a genuinely personal contribution.
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I think there's some misinterpretation here - or my speech wasn't clear.
Let's take a look at costume creation. It's been embraced beyond belief by players...we have in game costume contests and events organized by you the players...Some say it's the best part of the game. The single most requested item in CoH is to make the costume creator standalone...
Intestingly, costumes have no gameplay value. They don't boost damage. They don't boost resistance. They don't boost defense. They're only for show.
Now, let's take a look at bases. Take away the teleporters, take away anything game related.
As just a resource for expressing something unique, base creation is on par tech wise with costume creation. Admittedly, there's not quite the same amount of textures, colors, etc., but there's still a lot of versatility. And the layout possibilities are endless.
But what's clear from this thread - and from many, many posts - is that bases are "too expensive". To me, that's interesting (as it is to the Serious Games crowd). Costume changes come with a minimal cost that no one really complains about, but we complain about the costs of bases. Evidently, the costs exceed the perceived value of creating one's own HQ (btw, I confess that many other games have the notion of personal property, but aside from Second Life, I don't think they offer as much customizability as our bases).
Let's turn to the idea of an architect. We foresaw that some people would feel alienated if they weren't the architect. That's why some things (Personal Items) can be "crafted" by individuals and placed in the base. But even if there's an architect: many super groups have a member who designed a single costume which all then use. In other words, they're more than willing to accept someone else's opinion in the group identity for their avatar appearance. Again, the primary difference is cost (I think).
That's what the point of the talk was. I completely agree with many of the suggestions raised in the Base Construction forum, as well as one's mentioned here, would improve Bases to some degree or another. Posi and I go through them at length; really, it's just a question of time & resources. Some things would take astronomically long to do - or perhaps there's something else even more requested or popular.
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Costumes = Bases?
Um...no.
It is not necessary to spend a dime on costumes for the entire run of a hero or villain. It can be set up at the beginning and never changed. Besides...costume tokens are handed out like candy at Halloween, further reducing the overall cost.
Bases? Those cost. Oh yes...they cost.
1) Initial cost of the base. If that was the only cost associated with a base, it wouldn't be bad. I think most of us would be ok with, and even expect costs with changing base layout and such. So no problem there.
2) Rent. OK, we have to pay rent/mortgage in the real world, so doing so in a game might add to the realism. But it's a pretty high cost that we have to pay in game. My SG's monthly base rent is about 150K/mo., which I understand is actually relatively small. Now...that's not influence...that's prestige. And the prestige gained per defeat or mission is really very small. So this requires a LOT of SG activity. Fortunately, we have a fairly active SG, but I feel for the casual player that just wants his own little "batcave". It's simply not possible in this game.
3) And probably the biggest: No Inf - We have to choose to get influence/infamy OR prestige. This means that every point of inf NOT gained by a hero/villain can be counted in as the cost of the base, since that's the only thing the prestige is used for. Now add that up over all the people in the SG, and we are talking tens, if not hundreds, of millions per SG.
So yeah...they are VERY expensive.