Statesman speaks at serious games summit
By
2Negative,
Posted on: 2006-10-31 18:17 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
A point I have never seen made:
If you are a new player and you wish to join an SG as a selling point to join it they advertise - A FULLY EQUIPED BASE.
If it is complete and the design is finished the ability to customize and enjoy playing with the design as they do playing with the design of the costumes is gone.
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Obviously because the cost of bases is not 'minimal'
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... the cost exceeds perceived value. The current ability to customize a social space for ones Super Group isnt thought to be high enough to justify the Prestige amounts. ...
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... in making a post-mortem of the Bases feature implementation you seem to emphasize it's lack of popularity is more due to the fickleness of players, than the bugginess or kludgeyness of the product. ...
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We (Cryptic) assumed a certain value to bases which clearly doesnt match up with players perceptions. We assumed that customizability, some gameplay features, layout control, etc. would be considered worth X, but players think its X-Y. That means WE were wrong. No fickleness involved, just something we didnt identify well.
But it shows human behavior (and this was the point of my talk): people LOVE individuality. Theyre willing to express it. But they wont consider (in game) it worth a lot of time/effort to create a space thats customized for group identity. Clearly, people dont mind group identity (hence, super group costumes) and they love their own personal costume creation.
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I edited two of the quotes and your responses.
I feel that the cost to customize a "social space" is relatively affordable. The cost for "decorative rooms" is affordable and so are most "decorative items". The problem is the exorbitant costs of plot upgrades and certain functional items in the game.
Also, some of the badges that unlock functional items in the game seem to be too high. After a year, I still have yet to be in a base that has unlocked all the heal badges for SG mode.
Finally, base defenses and creating them seem to be out of the reach of even relatively serious SGs. I've played the entire year in SG mode, have 2 or more SGs listed in the top 100 on Infinity, and I can barely afford to make a defensive base with defensive items. I think that's embarassing and demonstrates that if it takes more than a year to even approximate a raid-ready base, the prices are too high. Make them within reach and people will use them.
There are other play problems like raids that can take lots of development time to implement, but adjusting prestige costs, rent, and badge requirements might go a long way toward improving morale while you work the kinks out of the playable functionality.
As a side note, the server I play the most on, Infinity, has it's top listed SG at only 56 million. Base # 10 is at only 21 million. That's a 35 million spread between the top 10 and everyone else comes below that. The largest plot in the game is 137,812,500 million! And that's with nothing in it, how unobtainable did you want bases to be?
So to recap:
1. please adjust rent by either reducing it, lengthening it, eliminating it, or giving reverse rent (compensating players monthly for having people in an SG, similar to the reward that occurred several months back)
2. Please reduce [/b]significantly[/b] the costs of Plot Upgrades and some of the Room costs.
3. Make defensive bases more accessible to a larger player base.
4. Make badge requirements less severe so that players can attain them within a reasonable amount of time. These SG badge rewards should not be relegated to the department of badge farmers, OCD players, and massive SGs.
Thanks!
I think you're missing something important in here, States.
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But it shows human behavior (and this was the point of my talk): people LOVE individuality. Theyre willing to express it. But they wont consider (in game) it worth a lot of time/effort to create a space thats customized for group identity. Clearly, people dont mind group identity (hence, super group costumes) and they love their own personal costume creation.
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*snip*
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Yet a Super Group costume isnt your creation, either. And yet people wear them. The counterpoint is, of course, that a Super Group costume is in addition to ones normal costume, not instead of. Theres no such personal property in the base. We thought (on paper) that the personal items would do the trick, but it isnt really the same thing, is it?
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Everybody sees your costume. It's part of your identity to the world. The more people that see it, the more time most folks will spend on it because it means more.
How many folks (I'm sure some do) spend a bunch of time on their character's face all the while knowing it will be obscured by a helmet or mask? Or skin-tone if they plan on being in costume head to toe? There's certainly customization available in there, but if nobody sees it, it doesn't have much impact.
Some sorta way to make bases "public" to your own side might go a long way toward making them have value.
I guess a simple way of putting it is "What good is customization and individuality if nobody gets to see it"?
In SW:G and EQ2 I know many people (tho certainly not all) put hours and hours into their houses even though there was no functionality in it. However, those people would make their houses public so people could see and appreciate their creativity and hard work.
This Confirms that Statesman's AWARE of the problems. Just like we know most of the Devs ARE aware of the problems with the AT's, PVP, certain overpowered Mobs, and maybe even l00t/Farm issues that are still over the Horizon.
What this DOESN'T confirm is whether they're actually going to do anything about it.
There is 2 kinds of ways that Cryptic addresses anything:
#1) SOON ...and...
#2) We tried but decided we don't have the Resources.
...and lately we're seeing a LOT more from camp 2 than we are from camp 1.
Infact the overwhleming theme lately seems to be more Pirates of the Carribean than City of X, IE:
"Let's see how much we can accomplish with only a Skeleton Crew"
Another thing I forgot to mention.
I remember back before bases were fully announced and after any beta implementations. Two things I was really hoping for:
Influence[/Infamy] bank.
A personal room that I could decorate with my souvenirs.
The souvenirs still bug me. Why is it that we have these things called souvenirs and not even so much as an icon graphic like salvage items have? Why can't I display them or place them somewhere? Even if it was just the character log on screen and completely personal to me, it would be nice to see some representation of these rewards.
This should go in suggestions, but I'll mention it alongside the above comment:
Perhaps as a "personal" room idea, could have designated building in a zone and be able to enter it like an instance mission. It would not be very customizable, but just be able to have some furniture items and the ability to display souvenirs and maybe temp powers, that sort of thing. At least then we could take screenshots and show people or allow at least 1 other player to enter at a time.
Also, I like the idea suggested above that it's like an elevator door that you click on and can enter your own personal room that otherwise is not linked to the base plot (to avoid 75 additional rooms).
And the plaques that could have text entered, the SG roster, and other features all sound good. They take development resources, but maybe not a lot depending on how they are implemented.
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Infact the overwhleming theme lately seems to be more Pirates of the Carribean than City of X, IE:
"Let's see how much we can accomplish with only a Skeleton Crew"
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LoL. Thats a great line.
Heroes
Dysmal
Lumynous
Sam Steele
Pluck
Wile
Slagheap
Pressure Wave
Rhiannon Bel
Verified
Stellaric
Syd Mallorn
Villains
Jotunheim Skald
Saer Maen
Jen Corbae
Illuminance
Venator Arawn
Taiga Dryad
Tarranos
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Yet a Super Group costume isnt your creation, either. And yet people wear them. The counterpoint is, of course, that a Super Group costume is in addition to ones normal costume, not instead of. Theres no such personal property in the base. We thought (on paper) that the personal items would do the trick, but it isnt really the same thing, is it?
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I understand that the original premiss was that bases were similar to costumes, But I think it's pretty clear now that they are not viewed that way by the player base.
I think you should spend less effort with customization and individuality in something that can never truely be individual, and put more effort into functionality which is what I think most players want. Also note that most of your player base plays for PvE. so adding PvE content into bases would be brilliant.
A good example would have been to have radio missions come from a base computer instead. Or have a different kind of recurring mission availabe in the base. (note that a lot of people have solo bases so don't make it for teams only)
Lastly I know you are working on an invention system. Pls make a lab in the base where we can actualy invent things.
and fix the danm base ejection bug pls!
You know what would make me happy? If i weren't punished for teaming. i gain less prestige while teamed than i do when solo. That seems extremely counter-intuitive. Yeah, you may be killing more mobs while teamed, but you still make more prestige/hour solo than teamed. It's gotten to the point where, for those groups i want to really help with prestige, i refuse to play with anyone else and only solo. No one should ever feel like they HAVE to solo just to get prestige for their SG. (If anything, there should be prestige bonuses if you're teamed with SG mates.)
I've been a leader of the most well known SG on liberty, and have had alts in 5 very highly functional SGs there, and only one of them has had anything remotely near a SG costume, which took us months to decide upon and hardly anyone wore aside from when pictures were taken or the like. SG costumes aren't as prominent as you seem to think they are, mr statesman
Liberty
My 50s:
Hero: Armor Assassin (scrapper), Cross Dresser (scrapper), Surly Seaman (blaster), Defensive End (Tank), Rad Rhino (Cont)
Villain: Beast Infection (Corr), Sweet Zombie Jesus (MM), Milk Weasel (Stalker), Orgullo (MM), Agent Eris (Crab)
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My point: bases cost too much for what players think they deliver. What they currently deliver is the ability to create a social space for Super Groups thats potentially customizable to the groups theme/background/etc.
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What's interesting here is that, during CoV's beta (and the buildup towards it), the dev team massively hyped the functional aspects of bases. We heard much more about the med bays, SG-only content and raids than we did about having a meeting place. The prestige grind was touted as being a way to unlock powerful, useful features for bases, not to get better artwork on the walls.
I don't know if your view of bases has changed over the last year, but the current vision of them doesn't seem to jive all that well with what we had previously heard.
Kinda' like how your I5-on-Test--era view of FF (Wow, look at all those awesome, useful powers!) bears little resemblance to _Castle_'s Drumroll Please view (situational by design).
Hey, I couldn't resist that one 
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One thing that would add the personal level would be a "Member suites" option. It shows up as a wall item, that looks like an elevator door. Clicking it, a menu appears with all members of the group. You can visit other people's suite, or in your own edit it.
Member suites are a 2x2 room, with their own prestige allowance (say, 20K) which they can spend on purely ornamental items. Additional items that would be great: display cases with souveniers you have received, maniquines with your various costumes, etc. While it has the same issue of being hidden, it at least is personal.
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Let them have an access choice, then - Public, SG only, Invitation Only. If the suite is Public and the base is not, the person visiting the Public suite cannot access the base.
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This Confirms that Statesman's AWARE of the problems. Just like we know most of the Devs ARE aware of the problems with the AT's, PVP, certain overpowered Mobs, and maybe even l00t/Farm issues that are still over the Horizon.
What this DOESN'T confirm is whether they're actually going to do anything about it.
There is 2 kinds of ways that Cryptic addresses anything:
#1) SOON ...and...
#2) We tried but decided we don't have the Resources.
...and lately we're seeing a LOT more from camp 2 than we are from camp 1.
Infact the overwhleming theme lately seems to be more Pirates of the Carribean than City of X, IE:
"Let's see how much we can accomplish with only a Skeleton Crew"
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Adding more people to a late software project makes it later.
--GF
Up with the overworld! Up with exploration! | Want a review of your arc?
My arcs: Dream Paper (ID: 1874) | Bricked Electronics (ID: 2180) | The Bravuran Jobs (ID: 5073) | Backwards Day (ID: 329000) | Operation Fair Trade (ID: 391172)
Something I put in Player Suggestions, but will repeat here:
I wish there were two prestige totals:
<ul type="square"> [*] Functional Prestige[*] Decorative Prestige
[/list][color= yellow]So if you have 100k prestige, you can buy 100k of Functional AND 100k of Decorative.
This doubles our buying power. It does *not* restrict it.[/color]
Your base grows 2x as fast with the proviso that your Functional items can never be more than your prestige total, but you might be able to quickly afford a 12x12 base of which only 8x12 is functional or somesuch.
Rent, if it still exists, would only be on Functional Prestige.
Simply, Telepads, Rez Chambers, Rooms, all deduct from Functional, while Lamps, Tables, etc. all deduct from Decorative.
Therefore Decorations cost us nothing, we can have some from the start, and we still have incentive to grow our base.
/bow Statesman
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Theres no such personal property in the base. We thought (on paper) that the personal items would do the trick, but it isnt really the same thing, is it?
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"Personal items" aren't really comparable to costumes for the fact that there's no customization attached. I can create and place a teleporter in my base, but so can anyone else, and they'll all look the same. Three months down the road, no one is going to remember who built them. They might be personal in the sense that you created them, but there are no personal touches on them. If the items themselves had some customization like the rooms do, people might feel more like they are "theirs."
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I honestly think the solution is quite simple:
1. The devs need to commit to a deadline for all future tasks. Tell me when this fix or that fix will be implemented, and assure me that whatever needs to be done to achieve will be done. If you (the devs) can keep to a schedule like that, then faith in the dev team will be restored.
2. Make all decorative and non-functional aspects of a base cost inf, NOT prestige. Give each member of a SG/VG a "free" room of their own to decorate. This would use personal inf, NOT prestige.
3. Give a big prestige bonus for each member of a SG/VG on a team, beyond the 1st; heck, make it a multiplier. If a bunch of missions are run w/ all SG/VG-mates, reward them for working together.
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States, could you clue us in as to what ya'll have planned for bases next? I realize that the sheer number of suggestions would be impossible to tackle at once, so what is being considered first?
I'm curious... is it plausible, at all, to develop an option that would enable other players to visit another SG's base on a whim? I dunno... have a separate kiosk that lists every "guest enabled" SG base on the server (let's separate Heroes and Villains, of course) and allow for entry. I think that would be pretty dang cool.
Not only that... but I'd like to see these kiosks take the form of faux buildings, that way we could at least pretend that our base isn't floating around Pocket D or somewhere.
JE slowly...restoring...my interest...in bases...
There are no words for what this community, and the friends I have made here mean to me. Please know that I care for all of you, yes, even you. If you Twitter, I'm MrThan. If you're Unleashed, I'm dumps. I'll try and get registered on the Titan Forums as well. Peace, and thanks for the best nine years anyone could ever ask for.
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1. The devs need to commit to a deadline for all future tasks. Tell me when this fix or that fix will be implemented, and assure me that whatever needs to be done to achieve will be done. If you (the devs) can keep to a schedule like that, then faith in the dev team will be restored.
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As someone that works with computers and does a little dabbling of programming on the side, I feel that this isn't the most reasonable of requests. Just because someone comes up with an idea doesn't mean that the current engine can be made to support it; or if it can, how long it'll take to get the idea working without making something else break in the process.
I am quite impressed, and very glad that you (cryptic) are looking into making bases a much more expresive feature. The only thing that I did not see address directly (indirectly by the costs) was regarding smaller SGs. As one who runs and builds the base for a smaller SG (about 35 alts, but only 5 of us), I am very interested and excited by changes to the base system, especially anything that adds to actual/perceived playability and enjoyment. The addition of longer duration temp buffs recently was a step in the right direction, however there are many, many more ways this can be expanded.
All around just nice to know that base issues are being looked at, and will hopefully be addressed shortly.
P.S. I am so all about the base content PvE style. This would be a feature that can be used by almost all SGs regardless of size and composition, unlike PvP raiding. Thanks.
P.S.S. Woohoo 1100th post!
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I read this thread thoroughly ...
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Statesman, did you also go through this thread in the base forum? There's a lot of interesting stuff there, particularly from the POV of SG Base Editors.
In addition to what I've said there, a quick comment on this...
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Theres no such personal property in the base. We thought (on paper) that the personal items would do the trick, but it isnt really the same thing, is it?
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Personally, I think the problem isn't that people *won't* build a base, it's that most people *can't* build a base. Allowing a personal item here or there a) doesn't address that particular problem, and b) creates a different problem.
You see, a SG goes through a lot of trouble to either coordinate base design, or to limit design so they don't have to coordinate. A system that allows anyone to drop random "personal" items into the base adds unpredictability, which is bad when you have a large group of people who really don't know each other.
I think you could get more base personalization if you removed the SG's vulnerability to permanent losses, and vulnerability to unpredictability, and added a bit of protection from griefing, and maybe add a bit to facilitate communication and group-wide planning. That would open up options to let SG members edit the majority of the base, not to just drop a single item once in a while.
Anyways, there's a lot more in that other thread, from a number of very wise base builders. I hope you have time to read it. Thanks for taking the time to come back here - a lot of us sometimes wonder if Devs come back to read responses to them. Good to know we're heard.
I think one thing that would go along way to helping players earn prestige is to eliminate the reduction of Inf at lvl 25.. Why should we to make a choice between Inf and prestige just because we are now at lvl 25.
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Yet a Super Group costume isnt your creation, either. And yet people wear them. The counterpoint is, of course, that a Super Group costume is in addition to ones normal costume, not instead of. Theres no such personal property in the base. We thought (on paper) that the personal items would do the trick, but it isnt really the same thing, is it?
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All the more reason in my opinion to add personal spaces, either in the SG base or seperate from them. Simply put, small one person bases.
I would love for my characters to have their own home that I bought and paid for. Some place that I could invite another player into a team and show them my home. Perhaps it could even have a minor funtionality to it. A smaller version of the base storage?
Bases are nice and I've seen a lot of time and creativity put into them, but it's usually only one or two people in the SG that is able to do this. When bases first came out our SG left it open for everyone to mess with, and what a mess that was!
Personal bases/homes would go a long way towards adding to the flavor and creativity of the game, especially if we could pick what zone we could live in 
The problem is this; we're talking about a group of professional programmers. In practically every other profession, there exist deadlines. I do not think it unreasonable to expect projects to be completed by a certain date. Sure, things may need to be cut, or features adjusted later, but get the product put there. I, and I'm sure a good portion of players, would prefer a reliable release schedule, even if it contained less stuff, than some up-in-the-air "it'll be out soon".
I mean, if they can't do that, then stop hyping a feature or addition that won't be out for like 3-4 months. I'd rather not know about, and eagerly await, a release that may or may not even be coming out.
Seriously, how well do you think "we'll get to it soon" would go over anywhere else in the professional world?
I'm not making light of the task ahead - it is indeed quite involved. But, by the same token, the game could have easily been made more modular in the beginning, thus allowing new powersets, animations, and the like, to be added more easily.
But this is a business, and the lack of certainties or commitment concerns me.
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but it isnt really the same thing, is it?
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No, it isn't
Its nice to see acknowledgement of the issues. It would be great to see a commitment to fixing them, along with some solid ideas for how and a decent time frame for accomplishing that.