"Toons"... are we playing Loony Toons?
By
8Seconds,
Posted on: 2006-09-22 10:36 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Technically we are playing in an environment that is cartoonish. I don't see anything offensive about the term and since it seems pretty common, I think those who have issues with it need to get over themselves.
PC stuff drives me crazy.
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Yep, the environment does lend one to use the term "toon", especially those who have not had the pleasure of being introduced to pnp role-playing games.
But it bothers me as much as when someone says they need to "heat up" a battery instead of "charge" it, or when someone says their car needs "coolagen" instead of "coolant". It's annoying. That's all. Annoying. I don't hate people who call their guys toons. I just look at the text and mentally replace "toon" with Alt or Character or Guy.
"toon" is a shortening of the word "cartoon". In modern usage the word cartoon conveys connotations of satire and/or comedy, and many dictionaries include those words in the definition. Although there are occasional comedic interludes and references within CoX, it's tone is not primarly one of Comedy or Satire. Thus, use of the word Cartoon or Toon would be inappropriate.
But, then again, comic book artists are often refered to as "cartoonists"! So the use of the word "toon" would be appropriate!
Although originally a cartoon was a full size drawing made on paper for further study in the production of another work, be it a fresco, portrait, or statue, that definition is ill-applied to CoX as well. Thus, use of the word Cartoon or Toon would be inappropriate.
However, cartoon is also used to refer to a sketch used in the production of an animated film! So use of the word "toon" is appropriate! (See Below)
Because of the similarities between early animated shorts and comic strips, the term cartoon came to be associated with animation. Because the graphical nature of the game is very similar to animated film, the use of the word "toon" could be considered appropriate.
Bleh! 
Personally I am somewhat with Dr Zues on this. He seems to have the right of the debate at hand. At the very least he has caught my attitude on the issue. I have never once said one thing to anyone for useing the term "toon", nor would I in game.
At best I see it as out of character slang that tells me two things. First, that the person is refering to their character model (hero or villian). Second that I do not wish to play with them as we have a different game world view.
I will not say anything harsh to them or malign them. I am not doing so here. I would say something to someone useing what I consider to be offensive language, vulgarity or a racist/sexist slur. The term "toon" does not fit any of those.
Now you can think of me as you will, but I have very specific goals with each of my many heroes and villians. I often times do not team, or team only with my real life friends and family. I generally find when I do join a pick up group I do not enjoy myself as much. I find this is mostly realated to views, and goals. How we as players view the game, what we want from it.
Sure "toon" is just a word, a term used to refer to something in a game. I am only saying that for me, and from what I have read here others as well, you may want to consider that it says something about your views as well.
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I'm sorry. I didn't mean to imply that you do get "ruffled" 
over the use of the word. That was meant as a general comment and in regards to some of the harsher posts on the subject.
You are correct all words do have power and meaning, my point being that over one's self they only have as much as that person gives them.
When I first heard(read but it just feels wierd typing that) it used in game I was like "Hunh?" and shrugged it off. Then after a few more times I started paying attention to how it was used. The user wasn't trying to be derogatory with it; it just happened to be how they referred to their ingame character. Now how can I hold that against them when the base word isn't even a derogatory word? Is it to some degree a stretch of meanings? Yes, I would say so, but the association is there.
As to being inaccurate, peurile(hehe had to look that one up) and diminutive: Inaccurate? Yes, its not dead on. Peurile? I'll say it does have a childish sound to it and connotations, but then again so does playing video games; to the vast majority of the populace I might think. Diminutive? Only if the speaker intends it that way or if the listener chooses to take it as such.
Well reached my max post on a subject. I'll agree to disagree.
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I think we're in agreement, for the most part.
Just to clarify: The diminutive part comes from it having puerile connotations. Like, "This is my toon!" vs. "This is my character!" To me, it just sounds like, "baba" vs. "bottle" or something like that.
Also, I don't think the word is inherently derogatory; it's just towards the low end of the scale. "Toons" are two-dimensional caricatures. "Characters" are (or should be) fleshed out and compelling.
It's not an insult, but it undervalues the subject, intentionally or not, solely in my head or not. 
Make sense?
Just when I think I'm out, they drag me back in! /e shakesfist
And for such a short reply(on my end.)
Yeah, makes sense. 
<---walks off mumbling about having to borrow a post from somewhere.....
Words change and evolve.
While some here may claim their characters are not toons, that makes as much sense as claiming that no one "Dials a Number" on their phone. Yes technically and technologically it may be true. But "Dial a Number" is a term used within our society that everyone understands.
Note for those of you to young to remember, Telephones use to have a weird round disks on top with 10 holes in it. A dial. You would rotate the disk with your finger to call someone. NO I AM NOT MAKEING THIS UP! STOP LAUGHING AT ME!
Just Google it and you will see millions of hits including usage by Major Telco Companies. They of all people know that there phones no longer our dialed.
Toon is the same way. It has evolved to include the online characters. While some can stand here and shout "NO IT DOESN'T INCLUDE MINE!" It does. Those around you know exactly what I mean when I say "I saw your toon." The word has evolved to include all the toons in this game weather you like it or not, and yelling that a toon is actually defined as "blah, blah, blah" is about as useful as trying to redefine "Dialing a Number" as "blah blah blah". The public doesn't care and will continue to use the term.
Toon is not being used as a derogatory term and in most cases the user of the term has no way of knowing that a few people might view it as such. But if you wish to try to fight the common usage, complain about those who use it, refuse to team with those who do and try to be an "English Nazi" feel free. It's your time but frankly I feel there's a lot more in life to enjoy, and a lot better things to judge people on.
Belldandy
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Words change and evolve.
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Ah, this argument. The eternal refuge of the misusers of language.
I find it funny that people can get annoyed by such trivial things
Language is viral. It's the way our brains work.
Languages evolve. A language that no longer changes over time is dead and destined for the history books.
These two facts are interrelated.
I've taken up "toon" because I like it. I've even started using it while playing PnP tabletop games. Some of the other players reacted negatively, but I just rolled my eyes at them and kept it up. Now they're starting to use it, cursing my name when they catch themselves.
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Words change and evolve.
While some here may claim their characters are not toons, that makes as much sense as claiming that no one "Dials a Number" on their phone. Yes technically and technologically it may be true. But "Dial a Number" is a term used within our society that everyone understands.
Note for those of you to young to remember, Telephones use to have a weird round disks on top with 10 holes in it. A dial. You would rotate the disk with your finger to call someone. NO I AM NOT MAKEING THIS UP! STOP LAUGHING AT ME!
Just Google it and you will see millions of hits including usage by Major Telco Companies. They of all people know that there phones no longer our dialed.
Toon is the same way. It has evolved to include the online characters. While some can stand here and shout "NO IT DOESN'T INCLUDE MINE!" It does. Those around you know exactly what I mean when I say "I saw your toon." The word has evolved to include all the toons in this game weather you like it or not, and yelling that a toon is actually defined as "blah, blah, blah" is about as useful as trying to redefine "Dialing a Number" as "blah blah blah". The public doesn't care and will continue to use the term.
Toon is not being used as a derogatory term and in most cases the user of the term has no way of knowing that a few people might view it as such. But if you wish to try to fight the common usage, complain about those who use it, refuse to team with those who do and try to be an "English Nazi" feel free. It's your time but frankly I feel there's a lot more in life to enjoy, and a lot better things to judge people on.
Belldandy
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Does that mean that nobody is allowed to disagree with the words I use? Or find my terms annoying? Lets say the words 'retard' and '[censored].' It annoys me that people use these words in a general derrogatory fashion. But, of course, thats just English evolving and I can't object. Might be a bit of hyperbole, but it is essentially the same thing. The use of the word toon to describe characters also annoys me, and I also object.
Yes, language changes. No, I don't have to agree with all the changes.
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Toon is not being used as a derogatory term and in most cases the user of the term has no way of knowing that a few people might view it as such.
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Does that mean that nobody is allowed to disagree with the words I use? Or find my terms annoying? Lets say the words 'retard' and '[censored].' It annoys me that people use these words in a general derrogatory fashion. But, of course, thats just English evolving and I can't object. Might be a bit of hyperbole, but it is essentially the same thing. The use of the word toon to describe characters also annoys me, and I also object.
Yes, language changes. No, I don't have to agree with all the changes.
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Sorry. Your argument falls apart as the two words you used ARE dirogatory. As I stated, "Toon", to most people is NOT derogatory.
Belldandy
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Toon is not being used as a derogatory term and in most cases the user of the term has no way of knowing that a few people might view it as such.
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Does that mean that nobody is allowed to disagree with the words I use? Or find my terms annoying? Lets say the words 'retard' and '[censored].' It annoys me that people use these words in a general derrogatory fashion. But, of course, thats just English evolving and I can't object. Might be a bit of hyperbole, but it is essentially the same thing. The use of the word toon to describe characters also annoys me, and I also object.
Yes, language changes. No, I don't have to agree with all the changes.
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Sorry. Your argument falls apart as the two words you used ARE dirogatory. As I stated, "Toon", to most people is NOT derogatory.
Belldandy
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Uh...yes, I stated that I disliked they were used as derrogatory terms, as originally they were not derrogatory.
Toon is not derrogatory, but it is annoying to me. It also, in my mind, devalues the work I put into my characters and in that sense I do find it the tiniest bit insulting. Just like people saying "Pwned" in real life is kinda annoying to me. I dislike the sound. I disagree with this premise that you must agree with change simply because it is change. If the change is a good change, in your opinion, then try to uphold it. If it is a bad change, in your opinion, try to quash it.
I use toon, because this game is based off cartoons an comic books, but comic-book-cahrecter's abreiviation (cbc) sounds kinda stupid
I'd say comic books are fairly different from cartoons, usually.
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If this seems frivolous, consider that perhaps your exposure to mature animation is more limited than your exposure to gaming or comics.
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Serious animation fans never refer to animated drama as a cartoon. See what the anime crowd thinks of anyone who calls an anime a cartoon. "Cartoon" carries with it the connotation of comedy or frivality. One of the reasons PnP RPGers dislike their characters being referred to by the derogatory-diminutive "toon".
A character has a life of its own in the imagination. It is a person who continues to exist after the game is shut off. A toon is an empty shell which ceaces to exist when the game isn't running, as it is only a stand-in for the player.
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I find it funny that people can get annoyed by such trivial things
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Yeah, pretty petty really. I can't believe someone posted that they think 'you' aren't the type of person they want to group with if you refer to your game character as 'toon'. LOL Petty petty petty.
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If this seems frivolous, consider that perhaps your exposure to mature animation is more limited than your exposure to gaming or comics.
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Serious animation fans never refer to animated drama as a cartoon. See what the anime crowd thinks of anyone who calls an anime a cartoon. "Cartoon" carries with it the connotation of comedy or frivality. One of the reasons PnP RPGers dislike their characters being referred to by the derogatory-diminutive "toon".
A character has a life of its own in the imagination. It is a person who continues to exist after the game is shut off. A toon is an empty shell which ceaces to exist when the game isn't running, as it is only a stand-in for the player.
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I'd agree with this. Few things other than children's entertainment involving humour are referred to as cartoons. I can't think of anything serious that would be called a cartoon by somebody interested in it. Cartoon just caries an air of friviousness with it, toon morseo as it is slang based on cartoon.
EDIT: Shautru; I wouldn't refuse to team with someone if they were an otherwise intelligent sounding person who used the word toon. However, (I'm not trying to insult anyone here) in my experience, more mature players are less likely to use the word toon. Obviously that varies and I'm not saying that using the term makes you immature, but that is the trend (or stereotype, if you will) that I have noticed.
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I find it funny that people can get annoyed by such trivial things
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I find it much funnier that anyone thinks anyone here, at all, on either side, is "annoyed". Annoyed in my mind is a rather strong feeling, and the reaction to/for "toon" is not felt much.
Do we even have a word that conveys the feeling of "extremely mild annoyance, so very mild that it only barely registers as such before it's gone"? Hmm. I can't offhand think of a term. Anyone else? I suggest we make one up. I suggest "tooned". 
Look, here's a metaphor for my (and no doubt others') "annoyance" with the word "toon". I go to the mall, I see someone in a bright red Mustang. I don't like red cars and wouldn't have one myself, but what the hell, it ain't my car. The only annoyance I'll feel doesn't even register before it's gone. I don't judge anyone driving a red car by just that, of course not, it's the mildest feeling possible.
Now, if they take up two spaces with their red car, have a cell phone stuck to their ear while driving it, are screaming profanities and/or sexual terms (in public) at whoever they're calling, have an infant on the front seat, and have body odor that'd knock a buzzard off a [censored] truck at 100 yards...THEN I'll judge them. And their car is still utterly immaterial.
How 'bout callin' em "Doodles"? I kid. Or do I?
"What in tarnation's a Rofflemow!!!?" -Priesteater on ROFLMAO
Real Objections Of Genius
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I find it funny that people can get annoyed by such trivial things
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I find it much funnier that anyone thinks anyone here, at all, on either side, is "annoyed".
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I find it even funnier that you find it funny that no one on the Anti toon side is annoyed. Especially when an Anti toon person, Orisit, admitted that they were annoyed just a few posts ago.
Orsit said "Toon is not derrogatory, but it is annoying to me."
Others have said they will not team with those who use the word "Toon". Using your Mustang example that would be like refusing to ride in the Red car because you disliked Red. Far more than a passing thought wouldn't you say? More like real "annoyance", maybe even "hate". I am annoyed when I take the bus, but I don't refuse to ride on it.
I would say from the posts I have seen that a small portion of the posters ARE annoyed, or worse, with the term. If you think otherwise then either you haven't read all the posts, or you have a different meaning of the word annoyed.
Belldandy
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I find it funny that people can get annoyed by such trivial things
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I find it much funnier that anyone thinks anyone here, at all, on either side, is "annoyed".
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I find it even funnier that you find it funny that no one on the anti toon side is annoyed. Especially when an Anti toon person,Orisit, admitted that they were annoyed just a few posts ago.
Orsit said "Toon is not derrogatory, but it is annoying to me."
Belldandy
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Woah, hey, I think the poster you are replying to has a bit of a different definition of annoyed. They talked about annoyed being a strong feeling, whereas to me it is fairly frivilous. English evolves, you know. I'm not taking this too seriously, but I would prefer if people didn't use the word toon. And no offense, but by your reply there it seems you are getting a tad too serious about this. I'm not trying to have an argument about this, simply a discussion.
Wow, we're all really stretching the subject trying to keep this thread going now, aren't we?
(Not a reply to the poster above)
Indeed, it is unlike that this thread will convince either side to change their minds.
While I admit I contributed my perspective on this thread at length earlier, I'm surprised it went this far. It'll probably keep going as more folks notice _Castle_'s post on it in the Dev Digest. It's not the heaviest subject on the forums, but it certainly does seem to have begged response from hither and yon.
"What in tarnation's a Rofflemow!!!?" -Priesteater on ROFLMAO
Real Objections Of Genius
Not seriouse at all, just on a break relaxing. I love discussing the evolution of the English language. I used to take it more seriously. Especially when the word "Hacker" took on a negative meaning. I tried fighting that for awhile until I realized it was pointless. Language evolves.
And I did edit my post. Sorry if it causes any confusion.
Belldandy
I'm sorry. I didn't mean to imply that you do get "ruffled"
over the use of the word. That was meant as a general comment and in regards to some of the harsher posts on the subject.
You are correct all words do have power and meaning, my point being that over one's self they only have as much as that person gives them.
When I first heard(read but it just feels wierd typing that) it used in game I was like "Hunh?" and shrugged it off. Then after a few more times I started paying attention to how it was used. The user wasn't trying to be derogatory with it; it just happened to be how they referred to their ingame character. Now how can I hold that against them when the base word isn't even a derogatory word? Is it to some degree a stretch of meanings? Yes, I would say so, but the association is there.
As to being inaccurate, peurile(hehe had to look that one up) and diminutive: Inaccurate? Yes, its not dead on. Peurile? I'll say it does have a childish sound to it and connotations, but then again so does playing video games; to the vast majority of the populace I might think. Diminutive? Only if the speaker intends it that way or if the listener chooses to take it as such.
Well reached my max post on a subject. I'll agree to disagree.