Do dominators suck like people say they do?
By
Aleshanee_NA,
Posted on: 2006-07-05 13:59 in Dominators
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... Dominators give up a bit of control for some good direct damage attacks that Controllers would give their left mouse button for...
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I don't think so. I play both ... and IMO controller containment = superior damage. Add the higher MAG control and it seems to me controllers greatly outshine dominators - particularly in PvP.
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States plays a plant/psi Dom (I think), I don't know what level he is yet. Around the end of April, I started a Fire/Energy Dominator on Justice. I'm level 37 now.
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I would advise you, to help the customer base have more faith in your discovery methods, playing not just a plant/psi. Speaking from first hand experience I can say that plant/ is arguably one of the most powerful dominator skill sets. Perhaps it would provide you a more comprehensive picture and your customers more assurance in your experiences if you were to also play a dom type that is notoriously broken. I don't have the experience to say what dom build that would be, but I do know that the gravity set is historically something that people are disappointed with. You or one of your developers might want to give one a go. Plant on it's own is not a good representation of the Dominator AT. Trust me, I play one.
I'm glad the developers are watching and giving some thought to changes before they jump in. I have some thoughts I hope you'll consider along with those, though...
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Dominators give up a bit of control for some good direct damage attacks that Controllers would give their left mouse button for.
[/ QUOTE ] This is extremely misleading. I'm not saying it was intentional deception, but it's apples to oranges. Let's compare apples to apples.
First, the good news. Dominators didn't give up that much control over Controllers. Sure, Doms are a bit weaker without Domination, but then they're significantly more with it. That kind of balances itself out, especially since the Dominator has the option of using that boost when it's most beneficial to him.
So where is our basket of apples? We're really talking about secondaries. Those attacks you mentioned, that thing the Controllers should be drooling over, that's our secondary. There are a couple decent attacks, but as a whole it really doesn't seem to be the kind of damage a sane Controller would be giving up a Support secondary for, you know?
There's our apples to apples. In a strict primary-secondary comparison, Dominators are a Controller who gave up Support for Assault. So, is Assault really as valuable as Support?
Edit: In other words, does Assault pull its weight in a team? All other secondaries really seem to, including Support for a Controller...Assault for a Dominator, though, is a marginal benefit to the team.
Well...it gets a little messy here. If a Dominator and Controller both start a fight by using a control power (and who wouldn't, with a Control primary?), the Controller has the benefit of Containment for the entire battle, while the Dominator quite obviously does not. I don't have a problem with that, mind you, but whenever you're thinking of a Controller's damage, it needs to be doubled in practice--quite the boost there!
I'm suspicious of the notion that a Dominator who isn't in Domination mode really comes out ahead in terms of the number of hits they need to kill an average foe. Every single hit after the first doing double damage really tends to make a difference...and if a damage-secondary AT isn't clearly doing better than a support-secondary AT, well, that's just not right.
By all rights, two things should be happening:
Dominators should be outdamaging Controllers by a very clear margin.
Assault should be as valuable, in the end, as Support.
I've yet to have a fight go by where I thought to myself "where would my team have been without my damage"...while not a fight goes by that a Controller's Support isn't welcomed. There's a lack of parity, and that's really where it shows.
It's true, Dominators aren't the Controllers of CoV. We're supposed to be giving up support and gaining damage. In practice, though, it doesn't seem like the latter is happening. It seems like we bought a Porsche only to find a VW engine in it--Assault looks sweet in the driveway but only "meh" when we hit the road 
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We've got a nice tweak to the Domination ability coming down the pipe (it will crank up your Mez resistance while it is active)
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!!!
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snoogins baby... 
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We've got a nice tweak to the Domination ability coming down the pipe (it will crank up your Mez resistance while it is active), and are currently data-mining PvP to see what effect our last set of tweaks to the AT have had.
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On the one hand this makes me incredibly excited. I've posted before how I think since Doms are at least semi-melee they should get some kind of mez protection, at least part of the time. Only thing I'm a bit hesitent about is piling yet more abilities into Domination. Dominators with Domination running are already pretty awesome. It's the rest of the time I find them somewhat lackluster, personally.
Gothika (Grav/Kin) Marionette (Ill/Rad) Terra Firma (Earth/Storm) Alana Dale (Arch/Nrg)
Iceblink (Ice/Dark) Fantasia (Mind/Fire) Shadow Minx (Claws/Nin)
--Virtue
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A lot of users hit the nail on the head when stating that you can't think of Dominator as "CoV's Controller". We went through a lot of effort to make sure that the ATs played and felt different between the two games.
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thanks for this tidbit of clairty posi. one of the grey-area problems we've been 'discussing' has been the proper 'role' of a dom in a team. mabey you could shed some light on how you play your fire/energy?
and thx for posting here . i was like OMG a red name and no deletions!!!
Your Insanity May Vary...look me up on justice. dont have to tell me your posi, just send an /invite to @djimmi (or probably just djimmi ) and we'll go turn the heat up.
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We've got a nice tweak to the Domination ability coming down the pipe (it will crank up your Mez resistance while it is active)
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!!!
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Ok after I've calmed myself down a bit, I'm wondering...
Mez resistance or mez protection?
Agreed
My controllers (mind) can obliterate even-level bosses with the contained (and slotted) damage from the /controls alone/.
And to get any kind of damage out of my dominator (gravity/energy), i have to "stop dominating" and risk myself in melee and execute a full, slow attack chain to make any progress on the foe's healthbar.
Contained Lift, Mesmorize, Dominate, and an occasional terrify does more damage than power burst, total focus, bonesmasher, and power blast, particularily over time.
And, it gets even MORE absurd when my controller hits 41 and picks up "power blast", the same power my dominator gets at 10.
For my dominator? at level 42 it barely takes a 5th out of a white minion
For my controller at 42? hold > powerblast = DEAD white minion.
And, not even my level 38 power - power burst, compares to it, total focus barely comes up to par, but falls way short in endurance usage, risk, and recharge.
And what kind of patron ("epic") powers do I have available? powersink is pretty nice, but my controller got transference at 35, so ...
Let's see: the only increase to my damage potential are weak AoE attacks and very situational pets, not so great...
Domination you say? okay well... I have these things called "power boost" (200% buff on controllers vs. 100% for dominators) and this little damage buff called "fulcrum shift".
p.s. I don't have to slowly fill up a bar or wait 200 seconds for these powers to recharge.
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Well, that's the problem -- even three doms on a team cannot lockdown an AV with triangles.
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You -are- aware that triangles don't make an AV harder to lock down, right? They only represent how much resistance the AV already has/has left.
Virtue Server
Avatar art by Daggerpoint
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We've got a nice tweak to the Domination ability coming down the pipe (it will crank up your Mez resistance while it is active)
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!!!
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Ok after I've calmed myself down a bit, I'm wondering...
Mez resistance or mez protection?
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Either way, and I don't mean to start anything saying this, but I have a feeling Defenders are going to be mighty upset with and/or jealous of this.
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Well, that's the problem -- even three doms on a team cannot lockdown an AV with triangles.
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You -are- aware that triangles don't make an AV harder to lock down, right? They only represent how much resistance the AV already has/has left.
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Heh -- whatever they represent, the triangles do indeed make an AV much, much harder to lock down when they are in the "up" phase.
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Well, that's the problem -- even three doms on a team cannot lockdown an AV with triangles.
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You -are- aware that triangles don't make an AV harder to lock down, right? They only represent how much resistance the AV already has/has left.
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This is not true. Triangles down? Boss level Mag protection.
Triangles up? appears to be 50-99 mag protection.
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We've got a nice tweak to the Domination ability coming down the pipe (it will crank up your Mez resistance while it is active), and are currently data-mining PvP to see what effect our last set of tweaks to the AT have had.
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<Blatent Abject Crippling Bitterness> In other news, defiance still sucks. 
</Blatent Abject Crippling Bitterness>
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We've got a nice tweak to the Domination ability coming down the pipe (it will crank up your Mez resistance while it is active), and are currently data-mining PvP to see what effect our last set of tweaks to the AT have had.
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I pray this has nothing to do with domination whatsoever. With domination up, I don't have any problems. It's the surviving long enough to get domination up, that's the problem... oh yea and breakfrees.
> Dominators give up a bit of control for some good direct damage attacks that Controllers would give their left mouse button for.
This is complete [censored].. pvp built containment Controllers do far better than any damage Doms can do (even with Domination up), as well as bringing utility and control to the table. Why do you think Hero teams bring 3-4 controllers to 8v8 arena while Doms are laughed at? Doms need a huge damage boost in addition to stronger controls, something like a blaster, with irresistable damage, to even be considered for an arena team.
The lead dev does not understand his own game.. sad.
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Around the end of April, I started a Fire/Energy Dominator on Justice. I'm level 37 now.
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Fire/Energy ftw!!!!
Pos, I have to say, have you guys actually played a controller much since you instituted Containment?
For any of the crossover sets, Controllers have much better damage per attack much more of the time. The only way doms get the nod here is they have more attacks to spam, but that doesn't work out numerically for all the sets.
As a PvP player I'd rather be beat on by a non-Domination Dominator any day than by a Controller. And the Controller has an easier time holding because of greater base hold durations.
The feel is different indeed. The Doms feel gimpy.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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We've got a nice tweak to the Domination ability coming down the pipe (it will crank up your Mez resistance while it is active)
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I hate to look a gift horse in the mouth, especially when it's a gift horse I've been asking for, but I'm a bit disappointed that Mez resistance will be linked to Domination. Aside from AVs and EBs, I cannot think of a single instance where I had been Mezed with Domination running, and I would never willingly face an AV or EB without a few Break Frees. More often than not, I need the Mez resistance more when Domination isn't running; afterall, with Domination up anything less than an EB or AV ceases to be a threat.
Kid Lazarus, 50 empath Defender
Freek, 50 mind/psi Dominator
Black Khopesh, 43 db/wp Scrapper
Circuit-Boy, 40 elec Brute
Graf von Eisenfaust, 38 db/wp Brute
Blue Banshee, 35 sonic Blaster
Blood Countess, 33 mind/storm Controller
Dr. Radon, 32 rad Corruptor
Phantom Pirate, 32 db/wp Stalker
NOOOOO!!! I just created a Plant/Psi dominator and now we are told that Statesman is playing one. I better delete that character before I invest some time in it. Every character Statesman has played so far has been gutted after a time. Plant/Psi are DOOMED!
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We went through a lot of effort to make sure that the ATs played and felt different between the two games.
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Honestly, I whole-heartedly believe that. And I think a lot of the problem with CoV in general is that, with the exception of Stalkers and (arguably) MM's, none of the villain AT's are really original at all. They're all just different aspects of the hero AT's with the power sets spliced together in different ways. You guys were so preoccupied with making them fundamentally different that you never stopped to wonder if they would be effective or balanced.
Brutes are a combination of Tanker and Scrapper, which I think was a great call. You guys have been wrestling yourselves hand-over-fist from day one to try and make these two AT's different. Just meshing them into one AT was the right call.
Corruptors are just Defenders combined with Blasters, or arguably, just more powerful Defenders. Once again, I don't have a problem with this AT. I think it works fine all around.
Masterminds are sort of the other white Controller. They take the Controller's pet aspect and run wild with it, while retaining the same buff/debuff/heal secondaries. They're not quite entirely worked out yet I don't think, but I like the concept of them.
Stalkers are all good. They could maybe use a slight HP boost, but that's just a personal preference, not really a complaint. Yay Stalkers, I love 'em.
And that leaves us with the Dominators. Honestly, I feel like at this point the devs were just running out of ideas so they sat back and said, "Hrm... what two concepts haven't we fused yet? Control and direct damage? Deal." I get the impression no one really took the time to wonder if it would work, they just threw all the ingredients together and put it in to bake at 350...
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Then of course there is the Domination ability, which is the real Jekyl and Hyde of the AT. A mild-manner Dominator with a full Domination bar can, at his or her discretion, become an unstoppable machine of destruction and control. While it never lasts "long enough" (even I am disappointed at hearing the sound effect of it wearing off), I've had missions where I have gotten Domination off four times from mission-entry to having Mission Complete appear on the screen. Good times indeed.
We've got a nice tweak to the Domination ability coming down the pipe (it will crank up your Mez resistance while it is active), and are currently data-mining PvP to see what effect our last set of tweaks to the AT have had.
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... and then the real problem occurred. Someone decided to add a super secret special sauce: Domination. I think Domination is a steller inherent. But it keeps getting used as a crutch. Honestly, at this point you may as well change our names from "Dominators" to "The AT That Uses Domination", because that's what I feel like. Every time I see a red name post or patch notes concerning Dominators it always seems to go back to Domination, not the actual AT itself. You keep looking at new and bigger and brighter ways to push Domination on us when that's not what most of us really want. I may be presumptuous to speak on the part of the entire Dom-playing community here, but I think the majority of us would just like to see some basic, flat improvements to our AT across the board, and not yet another reason to force us to lean on Domination for all that we hope to be. We want to play our AT from level 1 to level 50, not for 00:01:30 at a time.
We're Dominators. Domination is not the AT!
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Dominators give up a bit of control for some good direct damage attacks that Controllers would give their left mouse button for.
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That one hurt my soul.
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We've got a nice tweak to the Domination ability coming down the pipe (it will crank up your Mez resistance while it is active), and are currently data-mining PvP to see what effect our last set of tweaks to the AT have had.
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While this is unquestionably Nifty, I'm not sure it's the right direction to go in addressing the woes of the Dom AT. I think most of us will agree that Domination is already pretty sweet--it's just the rest of the time that we feel lacking. Making our brief periods of uberness more uber won't make the slog in between any better. I'd rather see something shore us up in the gaps.
Here's a thought: Keep the mez protection (I'm hoping it's protection, as opposed to resistance, which is much less nifty). Key it to the Domination bar, rather than the power. When the bar is full, and Domination is available, mez protection kicks in until the bar drops, or Domination is activated. This would present us with a tactical decision: Do I save the bar to keep the protective buff, or do I trigger Domination and go all megalomaniacal on my foes? More importantly, it would ease the frustration during those long periods when we're all sparkly and looking at the little dot of unrecharged Domination.
The Way of the Corruptor (Arc ID 49834): Hey villains! Do something for yourself for a change--like twisting the elements to your will. All that's standing in your way are a few secret societies...and Champions of the four elements.
I can't blame people for bashing on Posi when the first Red name post outside of "I'm locking this thread" is 4 words.
But now people actually do get the dev take on Dominators and DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM hits.
For the 2007 awards I nominate the Dominator forum for the Best Drama in a Forum award 
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We've got a nice tweak to the Domination ability coming down the pipe (it will crank up your Mez resistance while it is active), and are currently data-mining PvP to see what effect our last set of tweaks to the AT have had.
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While this is unquestionably Nifty, I'm not sure it's the right direction to go in addressing the woes of the Dom AT. I think most of us will agree that Domination is already pretty sweet--it's just the rest of the time that we feel lacking. Making our brief periods of uberness more uber won't make the slog in between any better. I'd rather see something shore us up in the gaps.
Here's a thought: Keep the mez protection (I'm hoping it's protection, as opposed to resistance, which is much less nifty). Key it to the Domination bar, rather than the power. When the bar is full, and Domination is available, mez protection kicks in until the bar drops, or Domination is activated. This would present us with a tactical decision: Do I save the bar to keep the protective buff, or do I trigger Domination and go all megalomaniacal on my foes? More importantly, it would ease the frustration during those long periods when we're all sparkly and looking at the little dot of unrecharged Domination.
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Neat.
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We've got a nice tweak to the Domination ability coming down the pipe (it will crank up your Mez resistance while it is active),
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Wow, that secksy, I can't wait for that!
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We've got a nice tweak to the Domination ability coming down the pipe ( it will crank up your Mez resistance while it is active ), and are currently data-mining PvP to see what effect our last set of tweaks to the AT have had.
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While I'm not a huge fan of making an AT so dependant upon one power, This would be an incredible change. Hopefully the mez resistance will be something very significant.
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Then of course there is the Domination ability, which is the real Jekyl and Hyde of the AT. A mild-manner Dominator with a full Domination bar can, at his or her discretion, become an unstoppable machine of destruction and control
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I've long suspected that the peaks and valleys associated with being a dominator have been by design. Nice to get some verification of it.
Thanks for coming to post Positron.