Do dominators suck like people say they do?
By
Aleshanee_NA,
Posted on: 2006-07-05 13:59 in Dominators
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Well, it's interesting to note that the "uber dom" post that you object to was made *after* the "lazy incompetent noob" post -- as was the post mentioning "pro dom."
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Honestly I object to both and I was not isolating either comment. Just clarifying what the comparison was. All this name calling, like I said previously, is counter productive. It just gives fuel to an already hot fire.
Still honestly, I have yet to read a post that says that the Dom AT is perfect in every way. GO DOMS!
I just see a lot of Doms have no hope, doms suck, roll a corrupter.
Both are inaccurate, IMO, neither POV can be supported with hard facts, or I have yet to see a post that can support either POV. The Dom AT takes work and some working with and if that isn't your cup of tea you aren't going to like it. There are tweaks that need to be made, I believe we can all agree on that. What we can't agree on is what those tweaks need to be.
Numbers HAVE been posted but all those numbers say to me is that our AT is working like it is supposed to. I have seen a lot of numbers posted about base damage and hold time. Those numbers are then used to argue how low our damage is compared to everyone and their grandma but what I haven't seen is numbers posted that show what our damage and holds are with domination running. I am not a numbers person, I can't even begin to understand the arcane formulas used to come up with damage. That would be an interesting comparison though. Of course then the argument would be "but my domination is never up....EVER" and the name calling will start all over again.
Finally, I think it would be great if we could get some higher up (red name type) to chime in and tell us what the Devs vision of the dominators role was before CoV released and how (or if) that vision has changed since CoV has gone live. I would like to hold my breath until I got a response but I have to work and I don't think I can do that while dead. 
You know what i think is the reason behind the very different perceptions of doms that people have? I think it's the difference between teams and solo. If a person solos and they like their toon, then that's really all that's important to them and they're going to be surprised when they see other people criticizing doms and saying they don't measure up.
The issue, as I see it, is on big teams. On big teams the measure of whether a toon is OK or not is no longer the individual person's satisfaction with the toon -- like it is when soloing -- the measure of effectiveness on a big team is whether the toon can pull it's weight compared to what other toons can do.
So, yes, anyone who mostly soloes is probably going to have a tendency to tell anyone who isn't satisfied with doms to "find another AT," because they way they look at it, the individual player being happy with the toon is all that matters.
For someone like me, who is part of a big VG that has a bunch of people raising toons to 50 on large teams, and that has a team doing the Recluse SF several times a week, I have to be more concerned about how my toon measures up compared to other toons.
I really think this difference is one of the main reasons people have such different ideas about doms -- we are talking about completely different ways of measuring effectiveness.
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You know what i think is the reason behind the very different perceptions of doms that people have? I think it's the difference between teams and solo. If a person solos and they like their toon, then that's really all that's important to them and they're going to be surprised when they see other people criticizing doms and saying they don't measure up.
The issue, as I see it, is on big teams. On big teams the measure of whether a toon is OK or not is no longer the individual person's satisfaction with the toon -- like it is when soloing -- the measure of effectiveness on a big team is whether the toon can pull it's weight compared to what other toons can do.
So, yes, anyone who mostly soloes is probably going to have a tendency to tell anyone who isn't satisfied with doms to "find another AT," because they way they look at it, the individual player being happy with the toon is all that matters.
For someone like me, who is part of a big VG that has a bunch of people raising toons to 50 on large teams, and that has a team doing the Recluse SF several times a week, I have to be more concerned about how my toon measures up compared to other toons.
I really think this difference is one of the main reasons people have such different ideas about doms -- we are talking about completely different ways of measuring effectiveness.
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There are a lot of users here including myself that do fantastic on teams with their dominators.
I contribute greatly to teams. The only spot I'm weak on is the AV fight itself. But I'm not seriously gimped on the AV. I spam the hold and hopefully hold him for a decent duration of the fight. I fill in the downtime on the hold with my single target attacks which contribute decently.
I've joined large teams already in progress and have practically seen the people sigh in relief. I have a good bag of tricks to use that ensure my team's safety and I speed up our pace because there is less downtime and less need to worry about surviving. Insted they can focus on all the SMASH and blasting they like to.
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You know what i think is the reason behind the very different perceptions of doms that people have? I think it's the difference between teams and solo.
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I can see how that could be a perception except many people on this board, including myself, do alright to good to fantastic on a team. So, I guess I will ask this question where does that leave us? If someone says that they do good on a team are they lying? If they aren't lying then what is different about their experience/build/playstyle that varies so greatly from yours?
I freely admit I solo a lot but I also play on teams a lot. I can and do contribute on a team. So what is different about my experience from yours other than the fact that you haven't had good experiences on teams and I have.
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You know what i think is the reason behind the very different perceptions of doms that people have? I think it's the difference between teams and solo.
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I can see how that could be a perception except many people on this board, including myself, do alright to good to fantastic on a team. So, I guess I will ask this question where does that leave us? If someone says that they do good on a team are they lying? If they aren't lying then what is different about their experience/build/playstyle that varies so greatly from yours?
I freely admit I solo a lot but I also play on teams a lot. I can and do contribute on a team. So what is different about my experience from yours other than the fact that you haven't had good experiences on teams and I have.
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I think it has to do with the type of team, really. Doms can "contribute" to a team, there is no doubt about that. Especially a Plant/ dom, or an Ice/ dom that is specced for control. So, if you are on a casual team that is doing regular missions, and the team is good, the dom can fit in and participate just fine -- altho many doms find that they die a lot on large teams due to aggro.
It's a different story when you are on large teams that are doing a lot of AV missions or TFs. Those types of missions are hard enough that it pays to min-max. Also, a lot of people like to min-max just because they are perfectionists and they like to do missions as quickly and cleanly as they can -- they take pride in doing the job the best way possible. For that kind of team, the dom just doesn't pull it's weight. Doms are helpless against almost all the AVs from level 30 or so up. A Recluse SF might take 1 dom along, but I've not heard so far of any Recluse TF succeeding with more than 1 dom. Also, in order to get Shivans, Nukes, etc. for the Recluse, most VGs are doing a lot of raids in PvP zones, and doms are just pretty much dead weight on those teams.
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And you wonder why I call you people pro dom's.
You completly discount anyone who doesnt agree with you.
I usually dont like to let my posts degrade to insults but this is going too far.
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A quote by KombatJesus:
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What do you get when you throw in some intelligent and vocal players who really know how to play the game With people who are earnestly trying to learn the AT With some lazy incompetent noobs who try at every turn to down toe AT and it's fanbase to get the AT molded in their own image and likeness?
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A quote by xxxxx:
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That's because there are several self proclaimed uber-doms who quickly drop into insult mode and tear down anyone who says anything about doms needing any kind of change. Not naming any names but some people really flip out when anyone suggests doms aren't perfect.
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All emphasis mine. Am I the only one that finds these posts eerily similar? 
Nobody named names. Doesn't matter; in the blame game, everyone is equal!
We now return you to your regularly scheduled self-righteous pissing contest.
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I'm afraid I don't see the similarity. How is using the terms "pro dom" and "uber dom" in any way equivalent to calling people "lazy incompetent noobs"?
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B/c "self-proclaimed uber dom" has the implication of elitism and snobishness and it was in comparison to "lazy incompetent noobs" not "pro-doms". Both are rude and both counter productive.
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You do realize that Im using the term Pro-Dom as in supports doms as they are. As I put myself in the [Censored] as in doesnt support doms as they are and wants change.
Boycott Ncsoft if they close down Coh.
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You know what i think is the reason behind the very different perceptions of doms that people have? I think it's the difference between teams and solo.
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I can see how that could be a perception except many people on this board, including myself, do alright to good to fantastic on a team. So, I guess I will ask this question where does that leave us? If someone says that they do good on a team are they lying? If they aren't lying then what is different about their experience/build/playstyle that varies so greatly from yours?
I freely admit I solo a lot but I also play on teams a lot. I can and do contribute on a team. So what is different about my experience from yours other than the fact that you haven't had good experiences on teams and I have.
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I think it has to do with the type of team, really. Doms can "contribute" to a team, there is no doubt about that. Especially a Plant/ dom, or an Ice/ dom that is specced for control. So, if you are on a casual team that is doing regular missions, and the team is good, the dom can fit in and participate just fine -- altho many doms find that they die a lot on large teams due to aggro.
It's a different story when you are on large teams that are doing a lot of AV missions or TFs. Those types of missions are hard enough that it pays to min-max. Also, a lot of people like to min-max just because they are perfectionists and they like to do missions as quickly and cleanly as they can -- they take pride in doing the job the best way possible. For that kind of team, the dom just doesn't pull it's weight. Doms are helpless against almost all the AVs from level 30 or so up. A Recluse SF might take 1 dom along, but I've not heard so far of any Recluse TF succeeding with more than 1 dom. Also, in order to get Shivans, Nukes, etc. for the Recluse, most VGs are doing a lot of raids in PvP zones, and doms are just pretty much dead weight on those teams.
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On large teams I contribute greatly. So, 8-man team spawnc I cast my SoC and boom, half the spawn or more is now controlled. That's not contributing? I may not be the star at the AV fight itself, but I still contribute decently there too. I've done every TF in the game besides the SG one and the Recluse strike force. Again I'm not the star at the AV fight itself but often they involve an ambush or some special situation. I'm sure some of you recall the giant ambush in Ice Mistral's SF. Poping domination and then your AoE hold and soft control most likely saves the team in the final room.
I admit Doms are less than ideal for the Recluse's SF but we're not gimped. Going against the 8 Hero team I'll pop Domination and then my AoE confuse, sleep, hold. With a 8 hero team I guarnatee someone's triangles are down and they're mezzed. With the AoE immoblize I'll be able to help keep some of the heroes at bay. And my sweet, sweet Creepers wil distract a few Heros (communicate with your team to tell them to avoid the few you target).
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You do realize that Im using the term Pro-Dom as in supports doms as they are. As I put myself in the [Censored] as in doesnt support doms as they are and wants change.
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Did he say ? 
I'm still trying to figure out why you would need titles to classify the opinions of a debate involving 4 people. This isn't politics. You can have your own viewpoint here. Not that I'm involved really, but it just seems...odd.
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You do realize that Im using the term Pro-Dom as in supports doms as they are. As I put myself in the [Censored] as in doesnt support doms as they are and wants change.
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Did he say ?
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yes I blieve he did say , might I make a motion to come up with a different term for those that feel doms need to change? 
Edited because I said you instead of he
On large teams, I'm the difference maker. My problems are in the solo game, occasionally. Large teams are easy. I practically do the same thing every time opening up.
Mind/Psi? Easiest job in the world. Mass Hypno, Terrify. Who cares about aggro when they're scared, debuffed, and if they're not 2 of those, they're bloody sleeping. The team lets loose with little fear of getting hit back. Then I jump into the chaos, spamming the hell out of Psy Shockwave (my favorite power EVER...even more than Fulcrum Shift...yeah, I said it!), and dealing with bosses (locking them up with ST controls)and billy badass minions and leuts with delusions of grandeur (yeah, Sappers, Nullifiers--I'm talking to you!). By the time this is all done, the rest of your large team pats themselves on the back for SMASHING, blasting, and healing...if it goes to hell, pop Mass Confusion and run for your life, Charlie Brown. When the dust settles, no one realizes that you, the Dominator, made life a whole lot easier.
It's a thankless job...dominating, and that's where the big problem is. No flashiness. No mindboggling, senses-shattering damage (save for the 90 seconds of joygasmic pleasure that is Domination), no pretty green numbers floating over our heads, AoE controls that are a waste of time (situationally).
So, to answer the OP's question: Do doms suck like people say they do? My answer...no. Could there be improvements? Hell yeah!
My wishlist for my Mind/Psi (haven't played any other dominators, so I'll talk about something I know about after 43 levels of toiling about)? 1: Fix Mental Blast, I don't care how, but fix it! 2: Fix the AoE controls...that's what sucks (I don't want City of Statues, mind you, but decrease the recharge times!!!). 3: Just a tad bit more damage. Nothing major, but something a little more. 4: Mez protection...we can mez, but we can't protect ourselves against it? Come on...20% mez resistance or something lower.
P.S.: Oh, as a Mind/Psi, please please please NERF the damned Carnies!!!
Psyphon lvl 50 Mind/Psy/Psy Dom Freedom
'Healer' dependency is like filling a car with airbags instead of having a seatbelt. -- Lady Sadako
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You do realize that Im using the term Pro-Dom as in supports doms as they are. As I put myself in the [Censored] as in doesnt support doms as they are and wants change.
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Did he say
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yes I blieve he did say , might I make a motion to come up with a different term for those that feel doms need to change?
Edited because I said you instead of he
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LOL
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On large teams, I'm the difference maker. My problems are in the solo game, occasionally. Large teams are easy. I practically do the same thing every time opening up.
Mind/Psi? Easiest job in the world. Mass Hypno, Terrify. Who cares about aggro when they're scared, debuffed, and if they're not 2 of those, they're bloody sleeping. The team lets loose with little fear of getting hit back. Then I jump into the chaos, spamming the hell out of Psy Shockwave (my favorite power EVER...even more than Fulcrum Shift...yeah, I said it!), and dealing with bosses (locking them up with ST controls)and billy badass minions and leuts with delusions of grandeur (yeah, Sappers, Nullifiers--I'm talking to you!). By the time this is all done, the rest of your large team pats themselves on the back for SMASHING, blasting, and healing...if it goes to hell, pop Mass Confusion and run for your life, Charlie Brown. When the dust settles, no one realizes that you, the Dominator, made life a whole lot easier.
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Yes, but /dark corrs have Terrify too, and they do great damage from level 1, not just at level 39 after the 38 power is slotted out. And they can heal, and debuff.
I see some people saying "my dom does great on large teams," but it doesn't matter if a dom does its job well, if another AT can do that same job and a lot more besides.
Can a corr do an AoE sleep, drop a +Regen patch, AoE confuse, AoE hold, drop a aggro distracting pet with knockdown? Doms have a much bigger bag of tricks. hell 3 doms on an 8 man team is total lockdown.
Is it so unfathomable to think that the devs have made some classes (whether intentionally or unintentionally) harder to play than some others simply by design?
In my experience dominators have been the hardest AT of all the ones that I have played to master. Before CoV was released, I had two controllers; a lvl50 Illusion/kinetics and a lvl37 Earth/Storm both logged with more hours than I even want to admit. So, I'm not a stranger to the concept of control at all. Only *after* getting my dominator to lvl40 did I feel like I really got a grip on what dominators are. Dominators are also the latest blooming AT not only in terms of power, but also in how well they can fulfill their role.
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So where are the devs on this.
States in beta said he would be keeping a close eye on Dom's after all the Dom's are too weak calls.
Then they said in I7 they were still looking and here we are a month later and nothing said.
So where are the devs in all this, it seems like they really dont care much. Its like dom's dont have enough players to be worth spending time on.
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States plays a plant/psi Dom (I think), I don't know what level he is yet. Around the end of April, I started a Fire/Energy Dominator on Justice. I'm level 37 now.
Fun? You bet, and I've played all the AT's in both games at pretty much every level. Dominators are definitely my cup of tea.
States and I -still- keep a close eye on Dominators. Datamining supports SOME of the claims made on these boards, but refutes others. Personal experience with the AT also lends credibility to some of the complaints, while showing others are simply blown out of porportion.
I read a bunch of the posts in this thread, not all of them though (yet). A lot of users hit the nail on the head when stating that you can't think of Dominator as "CoV's Controller". We went through a lot of effort to make sure that the ATs played and felt different between the two games. Dominators give up a bit of control for some good direct damage attacks that Controllers would give their left mouse button for.
Then of course there is the Domination ability, which is the real Jekyl and Hyde of the AT. A mild-manner Dominator with a full Domination bar can, at his or her discretion, become an unstoppable machine of destruction and control. While it never lasts "long enough" (even I am disappointed at hearing the sound effect of it wearing off), I've had missions where I have gotten Domination off four times from mission-entry to having Mission Complete appear on the screen. Good times indeed.
We've got a nice tweak to the Domination ability coming down the pipe (it will crank up your Mez resistance while it is active), and are currently data-mining PvP to see what effect our last set of tweaks to the AT have had.
Positron
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Is it so unfathomable to think that the devs have made some classes (whether intentionally or unintentionally) harder to play than some others simply by design?
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Honestly, I think the devs could have started out some ATs weaker so they can buff them to their vision of "balance". No one likes to get nerfed. Nerfage causes hate and discontent and no one likes that. I don't think the Dom AT is going to be like it is forever, it is just going to take time to get the tweaks it needs in order to be viewed as an equal. Some people can wait for that time, some people can't.
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So where are the devs on this.
States in beta said he would be keeping a close eye on Dom's after all the Dom's are too weak calls.
Then they said in I7 they were still looking and here we are a month later and nothing said.
So where are the devs in all this, it seems like they really dont care much. Its like dom's dont have enough players to be worth spending time on.
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States plays a plant/psi Dom (I think), I don't know what level he is yet. Around the end of April, I started a Fire/Energy Dominator on Justice. I'm level 37 now.
Fun? You bet, and I've played all the AT's in both games at pretty much every level. Dominators are definitely my cup of tea.
States and I -still- keep a close eye on Dominators. Datamining supports SOME of the claims made on these boards, but refutes others. Personal experience with the AT also lends credibility to some of the complaints, while showing others are simply blown out of porportion.
I read a bunch of the posts in this thread, not all of them though (yet). A lot of users hit the nail on the head when stating that you can't think of Dominator as "CoV's Controller". We went through a lot of effort to make sure that the ATs played and felt different between the two games. Dominators give up a bit of control for some good direct damage attacks that Controllers would give their left mouse button for.
Then of course there is the Domination ability, which is the real Jekyl and Hyde of the AT. A mild-manner Dominator with a full Domination bar can, at his or her discretion, become an unstoppable machine of destruction and control. While it never lasts "long enough" (even I am disappointed at hearing the sound effect of it wearing off), I've had missions where I have gotten Domination off four times from mission-entry to having Mission Complete appear on the screen. Good times indeed.
We've got a nice tweak to the Domination ability coming down the pipe (it will crank up your Mez resistance while it is active), and are currently data-mining PvP to see what effect our last set of tweaks to the AT have had.
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Thanks for posting for real Posi 
Seems like you say what the "pro-Dom" people say. Some tweaks are needed but people blow some problems way out of proportion.
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We've got a nice tweak to the Domination ability coming down the pipe (it will crank up your Mez resistance while it is active)
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!!!
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So where are the devs on this.
States in beta said he would be keeping a close eye on Dom's after all the Dom's are too weak calls.
Then they said in I7 they were still looking and here we are a month later and nothing said.
So where are the devs in all this, it seems like they really dont care much. Its like dom's dont have enough players to be worth spending time on.
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States plays a plant/psi Dom (I think), I don't know what level he is yet. Around the end of April, I started a Fire/Energy Dominator on Justice. I'm level 37 now.
Fun? You bet, and I've played all the AT's in both games at pretty much every level. Dominators are definitely my cup of tea.
States and I -still- keep a close eye on Dominators. Datamining supports SOME of the claims made on these boards, but refutes others. Personal experience with the AT also lends credibility to some of the complaints, while showing others are simply blown out of porportion.
I read a bunch of the posts in this thread, not all of them though (yet). A lot of users hit the nail on the head when stating that you can't think of Dominator as "CoV's Controller". We went through a lot of effort to make sure that the ATs played and felt different between the two games. Dominators give up a bit of control for some good direct damage attacks that Controllers would give their left mouse button for.
Then of course there is the Domination ability, which is the real Jekyl and Hyde of the AT. A mild-manner Dominator with a full Domination bar can, at his or her discretion, become an unstoppable machine of destruction and control. While it never lasts "long enough" (even I am disappointed at hearing the sound effect of it wearing off), I've had missions where I have gotten Domination off four times from mission-entry to having Mission Complete appear on the screen. Good times indeed.
We've got a nice tweak to the Domination ability coming down the pipe (it will crank up your Mez resistance while it is active), and are currently data-mining PvP to see what effect our last set of tweaks to the AT have had.
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Umm, I didn't want to post to anymore threads with the word suck in them but ... ummm ... wow. I think I should put a quote in my sig somewhere. This is a good quote:
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Then of course there is the Domination ability, which is the real Jekyl and Hyde of the AT. A mild-manner Dominator with a full Domination bar can, at his or her discretion, become an unstoppable machine of destruction and control.
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Thanks for the feedback. Hope you have time for more in the future.
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Can a corr do an AoE sleep,
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I really don't think a corr would bother with an aoe sleep, because Brutes and MMs and corrs all have aoe attacks, and sleeps are going to be broken almost as soon as they are applied. They just aren't a realistic control option on a large team.
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drop a +Regen patch,
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Are you referring to Spirit Tree? Lots of Plant/ doms don't even take that because it's immobile and slow-acting. Corrs don't need an immobile heal because they can heal on the fly.
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AoE confuse,
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Plant's aoe confuse is a great power -- it's comparable in usefulness to Mind's Terrify. Again, though, it's only 1 power. Mind's aoe confuse is only available about every third fight.
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AoE hold,
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The aoe hold is great, for the every third battle or so that it's actually up. A team cannot rely on the aoe holds because they are so rarely available. Compare with a corr's debuffs, which are available for every fight, and usually for the entire battle.
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drop a aggro distracting pet with knockdown?
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Pets are nice, but compare them with the corr's level 32 power, which is a nuke, or the Brute's 32 powers, which include Foot Stomp, for example. Also, mind/ doesn't get a pet -- just the aoe confuse you already mentioned.
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Doms have a much bigger bag of tricks. hell 3 doms on an 8 man team is total lockdown.
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Well, that's the problem -- even three doms on a team cannot lockdown an AV with triangles. And for non-Av teams, compare 3 doms to 3 corrs. The corr debuffs can stack and make the mobs about as dangerous as kittens while also making them much easier and faster to kill -- and the corrs can do a lot of the killing themselves (remember the nukes). and the corrs can buff and heal too. Also, MMs with /dark or /poison secondary can do many of the same buffs/debuffs as a corr.
Again, I'm not saying that a dom brings *nothing* to a team. it's just that I can't think of any reason at all, as a team leader, to take a dom over a corr, Brute, or MM.
Thanks Positron for responding. It should help to clear up some confusion and glad to hear we have some things coming our way down the line.
I guess I really could have held my breath until a dev responded. Glad I didn't take any bets.
I may have to give a Dom some serious play when the tweaks come in.
This goes without saying but you know this is easily, like, 5 or 6 threads.