Official Thread for Brutes: Electric Melee
By
13th_Stranger,
Posted on: 2006-05-01 11:58 in Developers' Corner
Really, really need some variety on the sound effect for Charged Brawl! Hearing that CHIRPY-chirp sound over and over is very unpleasant.
Jacob's Ladder appears to me to be a good bit wider than Shadow Maul. It is no big trick to herd multiple mobs into its cone, and it appears to me to be something like 45 degrees; Shadow Maul always seemed much narrower to me, I never could get multiple hits unless the mobs were in almost a perfect line, with Jacob's Ladder they can be side-by-side and get hit.
By the way "Jacobs Ladder" could use an apostrophe, or are we talking about multiple Jacobs?
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I thought the Jacobs Ladder animation was underwhelming.
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I don't mind the animation, but it certainly isn't very "Jacob's Ladder"-ish. More like "Static Burst." I'd rather the animation start with the character holding two fists together out in front of him and then pull them apart with a large arc of electricity jumping from hand to hand that then flashes outward. Yanno - like the arc at the top of a Jacob's Ladder.
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EXACTLY.
They just recycled the ugliest animation from the Blaster APP.
I imagined Jacobs ladder exactly as you described it as well. I could have sworn that's how it was described in an interview somewhere.....
Centinull
Actually I like the Jacob's Ladder animation, if you watch what's going on you do see a bolt of electricity advance away from your body, between/across your arms and into the target. It's also rather nicely shorter than the other tier 3 big-hit melees, particularly shadow maul. I like it pretty well.
If you pay attention there is an arc of electricity that travels down your arms and then explodes in the shower of sparks. So, yeah, it is what you guys were expecting.
Kinetic Fusion - lvl 50 EM/EA Brute
Galvanized - lvl 50 Bots/Dark Mastermind
Umetrus - lvl 50 Fire/Kin Corruptor
Psychotropic Pstud - lvl 50 Mind/Psi Dom
Thunderstrike looks pretty good so far - the AOE damage component is far higher damage than the blaster version, I'm pretty surprised. The blaster version's AOE damage is about 1.1 brawls, the Brute version is looking something like 2.5. Frankly I'm shocked it's that good!
HAHA "SHOCKED"! I totally did not mean to write a pun there, and it's a groaner to boot!
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If you pay attention there is an arc of electricity that travels down your arms and then explodes in the shower of sparks. So, yeah, it is what you guys were expecting.
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If all I'm seeing is a shower of sparks, then it isn't what I was expecting.
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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The guys who say JL's cone is the same as Shadow Maul are nuts. Shadow Maul requires the mobs to be in a perfect single-file line. With JL I can reliably hit 3 mobs as long as they are close to each other and I target the one in the back.
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My experience is precisely the opposite.
With Shadow Maul, I can hit people directly next to each other, or in this configuration:
<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>
X
X X
</pre><hr />
Provided that they're all bundled up close and I have the back X targetted. With Jacob's Ladder, I've been consistently unable to do so. The only times I've gotten multiple targets on it is when they're either directly behind one another, or just off that (overlapping), or once with a big group where they were standing practically on top of each other.
I was expecting it to be like Shadow Maul, which I can pretty consistently get multiple targets on. It does not seem to work as well for me, so I'm questioning how big a cone it actually is.
(I've got some other comments about Jacob's Ladder, but I'll put those in a separate reply.)
One drawback of the internet is how it has trained so many people to think that one day is a long time.
I've found a couple problems with Jacob's Ladder overall, outside of my personal issues with its cone performance:
It has yet to give me an endurance drain message (and therefore, not even a remote chance of getting End back).
It does, however, occasionally give a message on the Healing Delivered channel about having done 2 pts of Negative Energy damage.
In addition, there's a small graphical glitch which I've been trying to capture a screenshot of, but haven't managed yet. Basically, during the power-up portion of the animation, there's a point just prior to the attack where I can see visible rectangular seaming around the electricity, at about the point where my hands are held out for width.
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Overall, I like the set so far, with 4 powers taken in it. The endurance drain component functions quite well for Charged Brawl and Havoc Punch.
My feel for the endurance-return is that I get it less often than I see it on my Rad/Elec defender, but I haven't done an actual comparison -- I may, when I get some more time.
Still, the chance seems fairly low overall, and I wonder if that's intended. In 20-25 potentially endurance-draining attacks I generally get 1-3 returns. That leads me to think the chance is set around 10%, which seems a bit low for a set that's very much end-drain oriented.
I do feel the powers are a tad on the slow side in terms of animation, but not enough that I feel a great need for change. Jacob's Ladder could maybe be sped up slightly, but for the act:damage ratio it doesn't suck.
By the way, Thunder Strike? SPIFFY power. I love it. The act time's a bit slow for it to be a major part of any Brute's attack chain, but it definitely is a good battle opener and a good "I'm surrounded" reaction power.
One drawback of the internet is how it has trained so many people to think that one day is a long time.
Havoc Punch and Charged Brawl both appear to have about 25% or 30% chance to return "some" of the endurance they drain. Jacob's Ladder does indeed show me the same "2 points of negative" type message, and I have yet to see it return any endurance to me. I do see that it definitely does drain endurance from every target it hits though, even though it doesn't say this in the combat window. You can see the target's blue bar drop when you throw it. I think the "2 points of negative" message is probably a bug, and it should be returning some amount of endurance here.
I had no expectation that the endo return from the melee hits would be really noticeable, they aren't for the Blaster versions of the same attacks. It doesn't look to be something you can really rely on, and I'm not completely sure where people got the idea it would be, there isn't any precedent for it. I think if Jacob's Ladder has a much lower chance of returning endurance - if the "2 points of negative" is what it's supposed to be, it looks to be around 5-10% chance - that's not unreasonable, I doubt it is intended for you to be able to make a profit on endurance with a really pretty fine attack power, not with any regularity.
I have seen the Sleep land with Jacob's Ladder, and frankly that's a pretty nice secondary effect for any AOE.
Animation times are pretty fine to me, the time for Thunder Strike is right in line with Total Focus or Shadow Maul. Jacob's Ladder seems about 1 sec faster than Shadow Maul/Total Focus. Charged Brawl and Havoc Punch are quite acceptably fast to me. Really seems a pretty solid set at low levels.
yeah, there needs to be a punch sound added to it along with the bzzzt sounds.
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yeah, there needs to be a punch sound added to it along with the bzzzt sounds.
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My thoughts on the Electric animations:
1.) The charged brawl animation uses the boxing animation. I would change it to the brawl animation
2.) Havok punch uses the air superiority swing... just like so many other powersets (super strength, energy melee...). I would use the smite animation from DM (a nice simple uppercut goes a long way 
).
3.) The attacks look and sound wimpy. A little more flash with the electric animation is needed as well as a meaty smack when the punches land (if it does any smashing damage it should SOUND like it does some smashing damage)
I don't really expect too much out of the endurance transfer, but I can't even tell how much it does at all. If it weren't for the little healing-channel messages telling me so, I wouldn't even know I was getting anything at all. I've never actually noticed my stamina bar going up after a hit. So I'm guessing that the inrcease really is as low as two points, as the Negitive damage message would seem to indicate.
According to the battle logs, I get a successful drain about 1-4 times in a decent battle. At this rate, it wouldn't seem unreasonable to get back fiveish points per success. About as much as a tick, I think, and just enough to be noticeable. Or, maybe, let endmod enhancements beef up this part of the power a bit (at the cost of slots, of course).
Though I'd rather keep it as is than reduce damage or whatever to balance it out, though. I just get this feeling of "It dosn't *DO* anything at all" from it. 
About Jacobs Ladder: I haven't ever seen it print the "has drained the foo-enemy's endurance" damage message, or visibly drain the target's blue bar; both of which the basic attacks do reliably. The endurance-related aspects of the power seem completly broken.
Also, I use the Ninja Blade and Scrapper Broadsword cone slice-type attacks all the time, and I find it WAY easier to hit at least two if not three enemies with those than with Jacob's. With average human enemies like hellions, they seem to have to be standing shoulder to shoulder with Jacob's, but I can get away with a third to maybe a half of their width between them with the sword attacks.
Last thing I'm wondering about the set so far, is, does thunder strike ever disorient the secondary targets? It dosn't do smashing damage to them, which is what got me wondering, but I haven't had enough time to see if it does yet.
"I think you're confused. This is /b, not /b/."
End recovery seems more like 5% chance of hitting for me at least on charged brawl. I've gone whole lvls without sieng it land.. lol ITs my auto power to... And ive tried 6 end mods in it, not worth wasteing a single slot on End-Mods for Hav or Charged thats for sure.. lol
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In addition, there's a small graphical glitch which I've been trying to capture a screenshot of, but haven't managed yet. Basically, during the power-up portion of the animation, there's a point just prior to the attack where I can see visible rectangular seaming around the electricity, at about the point where my hands are held out for width.
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This?
http://img302.imageshack.us/img302/8...cglitch2tl.jpg
Edit: I demorecord and then use Zloth's demo launcher to do screenshot dumps of the demo in .tga format. Then I can look through all of the frames to pick out my favorite screenshot - well, in this case, I was going through to pick out the glitch... I had already posted my favorite screenshot on our SG website 
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In addition, there's a small graphical glitch
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This?
http://img302.imageshack.us/img302/8...cglitch2tl.jpg
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Aye, that'd be the one.
And yeah, I'd come to the conclusion demorecord would be the ideal way to capture it, but hadn't gotten back to Test yet. But this shows what I mean, thanks.
One drawback of the internet is how it has trained so many people to think that one day is a long time.
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In addition, there's a small graphical glitch which I've been trying to capture a screenshot of, but haven't managed yet. Basically, during the power-up portion of the animation, there's a point just prior to the attack where I can see visible rectangular seaming around the electricity, at about the point where my hands are held out for width.
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This?
http://img302.imageshack.us/img302/8...cglitch2tl.jpg
Edit: I demorecord and then use Zloth's demo launcher to do screenshot dumps of the demo in .tga format. Then I can look through all of the frames to pick out my favorite screenshot - well, in this case, I was going through to pick out the glitch... I had already posted my favorite screenshot on our SG website
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Aha, now I can see it . Looks like the lightning is being drawn on a rectangle that fits between the hands, where it needs to be drawn on one longer than that area that fades out at edges or something. (Seen stuff like this in FPS games and such before.)
*Obviousness stating FTW! (probably)*
"I think you're confused. This is /b, not /b/."
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About Jacobs Ladder: I haven't ever seen it print the "has drained the foo-enemy's endurance" damage message, or visibly drain the target's blue bar; both of which the basic attacks do reliably. The endurance-related aspects of the power seem completly broken.
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Hit a vault door with Jacob's Ladder and nothing else, you will plainly see the blue bar drop.
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Also, I use the Ninja Blade and Scrapper Broadsword cone slice-type attacks all the time, and I find it WAY easier to hit at least two if not three enemies with those than with Jacob's. With average human enemies like hellions, they seem to have to be standing shoulder to shoulder with Jacob's, but I can get away with a third to maybe a half of their width between them with the sword attacks.
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I think the justification for that is that you're swinging a sword side-to-side, and I agree the cone is of huge width for both the sword attacks. I don't have an opinion whether Jacob's Ladder should be changed, to me it's adequate as is.
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Last thing I'm wondering about the set so far, is, does thunder strike ever disorient the secondary targets? It dosn't do smashing damage to them, which is what got me wondering, but I haven't had enough time to see if it does yet.
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Yes, the knockdown and disorient both can hit secondary targets, I've seen the brute version do it. The attack is pretty different from the Blaster version, with knockDOWN instead of knockBACK, and apparently a 50/50 split for the ST smashing damage and the AOE energy damage.
*...static filter...*
I would just like to add in that, even though there are a number of people wanting to change the charged brawl animation I personally love it. I have never played an SS tanker or any other set that uses the animation so for me it's really satisfying.
Changing havoc punch to smite I wouldn't particularly mind though.
*...FTB...*
Can someone confirm that TS has been changed to more of a 5.4ish BI attack? I am actualy kinda worried about the set now, because it doesnt sound like its gonna get a big single target attack (9ish bi) anymore if TS has been lowered from the blaster version...
That or LR will really be a nova type attack, which would suck too since that has hideous regcharge. Sounds Like Elec might wind up more of a pve set and kinda bleh in pvp with so much aoe and no good single target attack...
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Can someone confirm that TS has been changed to more of a 5.4ish BI attack? I am actualy kinda worried about the set now, because it doesnt sound like its gonna get a big single target attack (9ish bi) anymore if TS has been lowered from the blaster version...
That or LR will really be a nova type attack, which would suck too since that has hideous regcharge. Sounds Like Elec might wind up more of a pve set and kinda bleh in pvp with so much aoe and no good single target attack...
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Yeah TStrike is pretty weak, overall the set is pretty weak. I fight on my own and I don't feel like a Brute. When I play my low level Energy Melee I just run thru Mercy beating on all the high level Arachnos stuff there and just destroying things. This guy really doesnt dish out enough damage or build fury fast enough from what I can tell 10 levels in. TStrike is great for soft control, kb/kd and disorient, some aoe dmg, and ok single dmg. But its no KO Blow or Heavy Mallet...
Since none of the attacks are described as "Extreme" damage, I think it is likely the single-target damage from this set will not be as good as say EM. I dunno, I like the set so far and I'll definitely play it at release.
Thunderstrike definitely has a lower BI than the blaster version, this was what I found:
5.32 base brawl damage
Charged Brawl:
7.39 Smashing = 1.39 BI
5.02 Energy = 0.94 BI
Total 2.33 BI
Havoc Punch:
11.83 Smashing = 2.22 BI
7.69 Energy = 1.45 BI
Total = 3.67 BI
Jacob's Ladder:
(A bit tricky here since I have 3x training dmg)
27.99 Energy * 0.7 = 19.59 = 3.68 BI
Thunderstrike:
14.79 Smashing = 2.78 BI
14.2 Energy = 2.66 BI
Total 5.44 BI
On the other hand the cost is WAYYYYYYYY lower, endo costs across the board are far lower than their blaster counterparts.
Pretty sure lightning rod will be in the 30-second recharge range, I recall it having a "Slow" recharge time and not "Very long".
I haven't had issues building fury, as damage plays no part in that, just recharge time for attacks. I don't think this set is any different from any of the others, except the endo cost seems notably low.
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Jacob's Ladder does indeed show me the same "2 points of negative" type message, and I have yet to see it return any endurance to me.
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I do not know if the power was designed to return endurance. The power description does not indicate that it does.
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Jacobs Ladder- You are able to generate a strong current between your arms and snap a powerful bolt of electricity in an arc in front of you. This melee attack can electrocute all foes within the arc dealing High energy damage. Jacobs Ladder can drain some Endurance from your target and may overload his synapses, leaving him writhing for a moment. Disturbing an overloaded target will disperse the electrical charge and release him. Damage: High, Recharge: Moderate
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So we can see that it is suppossed to drain endurance, there is nothing about returning it, and there is a chance to "sleep" the target.
Going over all of the ElM attack descriptions, the only 2 that indicate there is a chance to recovery endurance from a drained target are Charged Brawl and Havoc Punch.
It certainly would be nice if there were a chance to recover endurance with Jacob's Ladder and Chain Induction.
Interestingly, Thunder Strike and Lightning Rod do not include anything about draining endurance from the target in their descriptions. I didn't pay attention to end bars with Thunderstrike, but I will be sure to do so.
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The guys who say JL's cone is the same as Shadow Maul are nuts. Shadow Maul requires the mobs to be in a perfect single-file line. With JL I can reliably hit 3 mobs as long as they are close to each other and I target the one in the back. It's still a pretty small cone, but not near as small as Shadow Maul.
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there is a little bit of leeway on shadow maul. things like golden dragonfly and headsplitter are perfect lines. Shadow Maul will catch stuff in a triangle. Granted, it's a very acute triangle. I'm seeing similar behavior from JL so far.
Level 50 is a journey, not a destination.
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