Official Thread for Masterminds: Thugs
By
008Zulu,
Posted on: 2006-05-01 11:49 in Developers' Corner
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Okay, am I the only one wishing there was an emote that set all the thugs in formation with me, and then we all did the "Beat It" dance?
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Dance?!! They should have the drumbeat/guitar theme from "beat it" as your enforcers come out of the manhole. While you're at it make your MM stomp the ground and say "OOOOOHHHHH" while some mysterious wind blows as the animation for the final upgrade 
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Even better, how about Weird Al's "Eat It"? Now THAT would be something, eh?
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OK, finally got to level 32. Found one problem, one concern, one question, and one art critique.
The problem: If you apply the second upgrade while the first upgrade is still playing, the thug will "flicker" back and forth between the two models until dismissed. The only way to prevent this, someone was kind enough to tell me, is to wait until the 1st upgrade is done before applying the 2nd.
The concern: Is the rate of fire on MM/Thugs/Bruiser/Hurl right? Part of me hopes that it is, but for an attack with that much damage it seems to have an awfully high rate of fire. I can almost justify it, because when the Bruiser gets stuck in the pack (which he seems to do about half the time) he has that ranged attack to fall back on. On the other hand, wow is that a lot of ranged damage for what is basically a brute.
The question: Does the MM/Thugs/Enforcer/Assault buff include +Res(Confuse)? Why or why not?
The art critique: The fully upgraded Enforcer wears a necktie? And the fully upgraded Bruiser wears a pastel blue and purple batik disco shirt with a butterfly collar, open to the waist? That's not the kind of menacing thug I had in mind. 
Oh, yeah, and one possibly unrelated question for the developers: Did you do something to the pet/minion AI regarding "follow" mode and Oranbegan portals? I just did a mission that was filthy with them, and not once did one of my thugs fail to follow me through the portal. Even on the one with a random destination, they all showed up where I was. That boggled my mind! If you fixed that, it should make it into the final patch notes before people use their freespec (assuming there will be one), because that's one of the big reasons why nearly all MMs take Pool/Teleport/Recall Friend.
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LOL@finally got to level 32 took you a couple of weeks when it takes others months.
You know that disco shirt and everything would be p[retty tight. . .they should give everyone big afros. LOL. I sure do wish you could customize ur henchmen's look.
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And the fully upgraded Bruiser wears a pastel blue and purple batik disco shirt with a butterfly collar, open to the waist? That's not the kind of menacing thug I had in mind.
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I can't tell if you're joking or not, but those are tattoos. It's not a shirt, man. 
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The concern: Is the rate of fire on MM/Thugs/Bruiser/Hurl right? Part of me hopes that it is, but for an attack with that much damage it seems to have an awfully high rate of fire. I can almost justify it, because when the Bruiser gets stuck in the pack (which he seems to do about half the time) he has that ranged attack to fall back on. On the other hand, wow is that a lot of ranged damage for what is basically a brute.
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Well speaking from experience as a Tanker having used Hurl, it does about the same damage as Haymaker (the double overhand attack-exactly like Air Superiority-and since I'd expect the Enforcer to have Haymaker and not Air Supe when u see that attack compare contrast w/ his Hurl damage.) all things being equal, ie slottage, buffage etc. Which will be the case w/ the minion since all attacks are based off the same slots.
As far as the rate of fire, having not seen the MM pets in action I can't confirm/deny, but the power itself on a Tanker at least has a moderate recharge, its 'downside' is the longish (3 sec or so ) animation.
Hope this helps...
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It does. And I went and checked the statistics under Brutes in CoH Planner, which lists the recharge time at 8 seconds, which feels about right. (I don't have a stop watch handy, but I was going to guess 8 to 10 seconds.) Yes, the animation time is the same, and pretty long. But the damage seems much higher than what you're suggesting. When he hits a level 33 Rikti soldier (at level 32) with Haymaker, with 3 +dmg SOs, I think he does 56 points of damage. When he hits the same soldier with Hurl, it does 102 damage, closer to what he does with Knockout Blow. (In both cases, beginning of a fight, so little or no Fury.)
So no, his Hurl attack feels to me like it's closer to the damage output from the Carnie's Bronze Strongmen's version of the attack than to the player character version. I could be wrong about that, I've never run a super strength brute that high yet. But I was astonished by the amount of damage on that attack. Pleasantly surprised, yes, but I worry that it may be too good. I guess there's nothing unusual about having two "extreme damage, moderate speed" attacks at level 32+, but it's perceptibly more damage per attack than I'm used to from either the Assault Bot or the Commando at the same levels.
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When he hits a level 33 Rikti soldier (at level 32) with Haymaker, with 3 +dmg SOs, I think he does 56 points of damage. When he hits the same soldier with Hurl, it does 102 damage, closer to what he does with Knockout Blow. (In both cases, beginning of a fight, so little or no Fury.)
So no, his Hurl attack feels to me like it's closer to the damage output from the Carnie's Bronze Strongmen's version of the attack than to the player character version. I could be wrong about that, I've never run a super strength brute that high yet. But I was astonished by the amount of damage on that attack. Pleasantly surprised, yes, but I worry that it may be too good. I guess there's nothing unusual about having two "extreme damage, moderate speed" attacks at level 32+, but it's perceptibly more damage per attack than I'm used to from either the Assault Bot or the Commando at the same levels.
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Shhh, lets just ride the good times for once and let the devs nerf it later
The numbers at 32 on the Bruiser attacks(all against the same foe):
Haymaker: 81dam
Hurl: 81 dam
KO Blow: 176dam
With three Dam SO's it seems very close to the damage of my Brute. I'll check again at 34 to see.
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Shhh, lets just ride the good times for once and let the devs nerf it later
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Dude, that is exactly why it was so important to me to hit level 32 before the code freeze, so as to not have that happen. Why not? Because when they swing the nerf bat in a hurry, they always over-correct. Better to let them go over the numbers at their leisure before anything goes live and get it right the first time.
It's hard to isolate individual attacks' damage numbers in a mastermind fight, so I'll keep my eye out when I go back in today, starting with Psymon Omega's arc at level 32, vicious difficulty.
Edit, after some testing: OK, vesus level 33 Longbow: Knockout Blow closer to 140ish, Hurl closer to 80ish. I must have mis-read the attack chain. Sorry.
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you don't see a Vanessa de Vore runnin around with a ring mistress, 2 freaks, and 3 clocks
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Well, if you've read Flagg's "Archvillains" stories, you wouldn't be surprised to see VdV running around with Clocks.
Good Guys: Touch of Gray, Cap'n Lil
Bad Guys: Maduro Man, Ghostbound, Amish Cyborg
Longbow are smash resistant, Council are a better choice.
I reject your reality and substitue my own!
--Adam Savage from "Mythbusters"
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Longbow are smash resistant, Council are a better choice.
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For what he was testing, it doesn't matter.
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Even better, how about Weird Al's "Eat It"? Now THAT would be something, eh?
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No doubt it'd be something!
-Arch
This game needs Guitar Blast.
ok gang war seems to transfer ALL of its aggro to you personally, every time I use it I end up being the target of anyone hit by them. Not a huge problem for me, since I'm set up as a tankermind anyways, but pure death for others
That's weird, because I've had the exact opposite effect; the things I've fired it at immediately lose aggro on me, and most aggro on my regular minions, and spend at least 3/4 of their time swatting Posse.
How I use it: Jog up to the Elite Boss or troublesome Boss and fire Noxious Breath, Envenom, Weaken, and then Gang War. This usually (but not always, once in a rare while my +DEF toggles actually work) results in my getting hit by the EB and/or one or more nearby minions, which triggers Bodyguard. Once the EB's aggro is transferred off of me, I hit a keybind that does "petcom_all attack defensive" on the EB. If that doesn't persuade the Bruiser to go to melee mode, I hit another keybind that does "petcom_pow bruiser go aggressive" and then hit that other keybind again as soon as he starts throwing melee attacks.
From then on, any time that I have time left over, I throw Paralytic Poison at any troublesome minions and LTs, but most of my attention is directed at continuing to debuff the EB and using Alkaloid to heal my regular minions (mostly the Arsonist).
What are you doing differently?
Gang war first, then debuffing. And I was not having this issue until just last night, things were working pretty much as you described up until then. And lucky me, the mob that does this to me first? The dual foreman mission from Lorenz in sharkhead, or as us MM refer to it, "The Mission of Ultimate Hellish Pain"
Is anyone else having problems with getting DCed constently after one or two missions while playing thugs?
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
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Is anyone else having problems with getting DCed constently after one or two missions while playing thugs?
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Yes, Everytime I play. for the last 2 weeks or more (Since I started testing thugs. Figured it was part of the low end system lag thing I have on test. 
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Is anyone else having problems with getting DCed constently after one or two missions while playing thugs?
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Yes, Everytime I play. for the last 2 weeks or more (Since I started testing thugs. Figured it was part of the low end system lag thing I have on test.
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Seems to me the engine has some sort of problem with thugs. My first mayhem mission crashed six times in arow as I tried entering but my ninja/poison entered first try. Also with the default settings my other toons had few problems with lag and being DCed but my thug had problems constently until I turned off most of the new things. Since the debris count doesn't seem to be an issue that's staying at max... I love seeing a pile of shell casings after a fight.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
I really like Thugs after level 32. By the way, what is your henchmen supposed to be pulling out of the bag? Most of the time it looks like just a clenched fist. I remember one time I put the upgrade equipment on one of my thugs before the lower upgrade and he pulled a gun out of the bag. Is there a bug with the animation?
Hurl makes all the difference for the bruiser when he's trapped by other henchmen. Knockout blow is really cool to see. Plus, I love when my enforcer tosses a clip in the air and shoots it.
I noticed this the past 2 nights. The Thug punk summon are overlapping when you gain the 3rd pet (arsonist). In other words, thug 2 and thug 3 spawn to the same spot causing overlapping...here is a collage for mulitple angles of this problem
enjoy...more to come
Kenja's Logitec G15 Masters Guide
Kenja's Concise Commands and Emotes Guide (I10)
Kenja's Links Guide for Badge Collectors
Visit SalsaVille!
Downloaded and applied a patch this morning... and thugs now get super leap right off the bat appearantly. Sweet! That means I don't have to worry about them being unable to follow me, right?
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
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Okay, am I the only one wishing there was an emote that set all the thugs in formation with me, and then we all did the "Beat It" dance?
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Well if they let you do that with thugs, then they BETTER have an emote for Undead MM that lets your henchmen get into formation and do the "Thriller" dance!
VIRTUE:Psychic Angel [Strm/Psy Def], Psychic Demon [Fire/Psy Dom], Spider Mime [Crab], The Cast Iron Chef [DB/WP Brute], Paintball Wizard [Dual Pistols/Sonic Cor], ACME Archer [Grav/Trick Con], Johnny Sonata Jr. [Sonic/Energy Blas]
EXALTED: Quantum Angel [PB], Psycho Angel [Necro/Psn MM], Holiday Spirit [Ill/TM Con]
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Downloaded and applied a patch this morning... and thugs now get super leap right off the bat appearantly. Sweet! That means I don't have to worry about them being unable to follow me, right?
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I am still at work, so can't say for sure, but I suspect that the superleap added for thugs is the same as the superleap that tier1 bots get, which only allows vertical leaps, and no real horizontal movement. This will allow your pets (at least the tier 1s) to get to you quickly after you are TP foed to the top of a building, but it will not let them keep up with you through rapid movement throughout a zone.
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Downloaded and applied a patch this morning... and thugs now get super leap right off the bat appearantly. Sweet! That means I don't have to worry about them being unable to follow me, right?
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I am still at work, so can't say for sure, but I suspect that the superleap added for thugs is the same as the superleap that tier1 bots get, which only allows vertical leaps, and no real horizontal movement. This will allow your pets (at least the tier 1s) to get to you quickly after you are TP foed to the top of a building, but it will not let them keep up with you through rapid movement throughout a zone.
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Yes, but at level 32 all my ninja got it. Suddenly they could make it up even the most vertical incline with a single jump. Helps alot in CoT cave maps. Plus they no longer take falling damage
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
ROFL That'd be awesome.