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but i sacrificed a virgin and everything....damn......another missing kid from the neighborhood, im gonna have some questions to answer
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Ha!
That line made this sad thread all worth it. 
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well i dont see the point in suppresion or the way you walk through it now, what's the point of picking a power set with repel resist now, well after they nerf TK and force bubble
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I was thinking the same thing eariler. If they nerf all the repel powers, who cares if ID gives repel protection, or EA, or Invuln, or Granite.
Currently roleplaying, badgehunting, and laughing at the PvPers of CoX. lol, PvP.
Truedusk - Human Rogue
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The devs really like KB and repel; they're extremely comic-booky. Remember when tanker attacks were larded with KB? The devs were surprised that tankers hated it.
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Thanks for the reply, appreciate it.
As for this this snippet I quote from you, I agree with knockback being "comic-booky". Notice that I didn't mention Force Bolt in my post about having redundant repel powers in the set. I love Force Bolt for it's ability to get a mob off me and on it's butt. But I think (correct me if im wrong) that knockback and repel are different. One is very comic-booky and flashy (knockback), and the other is not so flashy and alot less comic-booky (repel).
I have a difficult time elaborating my thoughts in type so I apologize if I was less than easy to read. 
It just seems like it's possible that a set can have "too much" of the same effect throughout it and become redundant. Especially when the effect is situational admitted to by the Devs themselves.
Other than for concept reasons, why would someone take a second repel power that basically does the same thing as your first repel power (more or less) when they can take something completely different even if its from the pool powers to fill some gap that your Hero/Villain currently has?
I toyed around with my Force Field defender on the test server many times with a build that had both repel powers, while goofy, I found that in "most" situations when I could actually use one of those powers, the other one was just as useful, and I didnt need to have them both active on order to accomplish my goal.
One last thing I want to say about knockback and it's comic-bookish effects: Normally I am ALL FOR adding any element of comic book fighting to make me feel like im actually playing a Super Heroes game. I think knockback would be much better if you weren't just knocked back a couple feet, but rather half a city block. Yes thats right ! I never felt like I did a classic Super Hero punch until I took my level 50 energy blaster to Atlas Park one day, hit buildup-Vanguard Accolade-Power Boost, then smacked a Hellion with Power Thrust. I watched him sail into the sunset completely over a building. That was fantastic !
Now I realize that in PvP that would probably be VERY overpowered, but in PvE, I dont see how knocking a foe a good distance away and thus removing him from the fight for a brief time is any different than say, casting Black Hole, or Detention Field, or Sonic Cage. All these powers would essentially have the same effect, removing a foe from the fight for a brief time, neither would be able to attack the other for a short moment. In the case of knockback, it would be less reliable than the other three powers I mentioned since the foe might get stopped in mid knockback by a solid object like a wall, thus he won't have to spend as much time getting up and running the half a city block back to you to renew his fight with you.
Granted, I accept that there are two sides to this opinion, those that like comic-booky flashyness (which would be inclined to like knockback) and those that like efficiency and want to kill the mobs quickly and with the least amount of hassles (those like the tankers you mentioned who hate to chase mobs all over the place). I'm not sure there is an actual answer that will work for both camps, since knockback by it's very nature means that foes will be speeding away from you in a nice ballistic arc whenever it's used. The best compromise I can come up with is to make every power that has knockback default to knockDOWN, but when slotted for knockback, then they become knockBACK. This would allow each player to decide for themselves which effect they prefer to have when they play. Unfortunately it means spending (or wasting, depending on how you feel about it) some slots on knockback which could have gone to accuracy/damage/endurance redux/recharge etc.
EDIT: I just had a cooky thought, since it's pretty much up in the air as to whether knockback or knockdown is prefered and/or more useful than one or the other, why not add a double SO to the game which is Damage/Knockback. It would be the *ONLY* double SO in the game that is purchasable like regular SOs. This would essentially give everyone a magic "switch" that they could turn on knockback or turn off knockback, without all the work of coding in a way to do so for every power.
This would allow tankers who dont want knockBACK to just slot a regular damage SO, and squishy blasters to slot Damage/KnockBACK because they WANT the mobs away from them.
In the case of powers that have knockback but don't do damage, they could just add other double SOs that are end redux/knockback or accuracy/knockback or recharge/knockback, you get the idea.
Cheers.
"All that crap is grey to me, no XP." - Positron 5/15/05 8:36am . . . The world stopped and silence ensued except for the sound of a crying infant off in the distance.
"Everyone needs to chill the hell out." - BackAlleyBrawler 11/13/08 3:26pm . . . Geeks around the world stopped and blinked.
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not that we're right because we agree.
we're right because we're aware of the legitimate counters.
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And I feel the number legtimate counters, combined with what the power did when uncountered, resulted in a power that wasn't balanced in compared to the vast majority of other powers in the game. Something can have counters and still be unbalanced, particularly if the effect is as severe as Hurricane's effect was if it were to go UNcountered.
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we've seen them work enough times to know that they do work...unlike many of the people supporting this nerf.
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I've seen and delt with Hurricane quite a bit. I know your counters work, but in my eyes that's simply not sufficient given how potent it was. Ultimately no amount of repeating, "But there were counters," necessitates that it was balanced. People usually complain for a reason when they do, and things that are much complained about often ARE complained about correctly. It pleases the ego to stand in the face of such complaints and say, "Pfah, I know how to counter such things, you're just not GOOD enough, the game is fine!" That's why so many DO it, after all. Game balance goes beyond simply the inclusion of counters, though. Fun factor is important: being able to spam holds to hold someone forever isn't FUN, even if it's not unbalanced in well prepared team PvP. Thus supression. Being able to kill someone in one shot isn't particularly horrifying in well prepared team PvP, but it isn't FUN, thus the one shot fix. And being repelled against a wall indefinitely (while having your Accuracy and Range debuffed, and possibly knockback effects on top of it) isn't fun, thus this. Proper game balance is clearly intended to involve a fun factor that goes beyond YOUR particular fun. I'm sorry that bothers you guys so.
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i submit that if you have a consensus among your best-informed pvp population that a power is or is not overpowered, that is some pretty strong evidence.
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I feel evidence and consensus never, ever overlap. Evidence is in the fact, not in what people feel about those facts. This is particularly true in light of the fact that the people you are talking about aren't exactly representative of the vast majority of players, having taken PvP to an extreme most people don't want to. Given this game is a product meant to bring about enjoyment, that fact needs to be taken into account also.
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i would weigh this strongly against the opinions of casual pvpers who limit their pvp involvement to PUGs in Siren's Call.
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And that's why I'm very skeptical of your opinion; ultimately you simply don't care about the majority of players and how the game affects them. I do.
To Psypunk (sp?): Your post was pretty hostile within the first sentence or two, so please forgive me for not reading it, much less replying to any potentially very good points you may or may not have made. I'm here for interesting discussion, not to be berated by people angry over a game or what has been said about a game. Sorry. 
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i would argue that i care about the other players and their enjoyment of this game as much as you do.
this change is inappropriate for the problem it set out to fix.
i'm asking for a better solution.
preferably one that doesn't leave me open to all melee attacks.
And I feel the number legtimate counters, combined with what the power did when uncountered, resulted in a power that wasn't balanced in compared to the vast majority of other powers in the game. Something can have counters and still be unbalanced, particularly if the effect is as severe as Hurricane's effect was if it were to go UNcountered.
--ironically there are powers out there that have fewer counters than hurricane and are more effective at eliminating enemies from combat.
People usually complain for a reason when they do, and things that are much complained about often ARE complained about correctly.
--and sometimes the reason people complain isn't valid. sometimes people complain 'cuz they're lazy. i'm not saying you're lazy (obviously you're not, given the volume of your posts), i'm just saying that the number of complaints in this case does not lend them much validity.
It pleases the ego to stand in the face of such complaints and say, "Pfah, I know how to counter such things, you're just not GOOD enough, the game is fine!"
--i'm not saying this at all. i don't repeatedly list the counters to hurricane to stroke my ego. i list the counters it because i know they work. and i want other people to know they work too so they stop asking for an unnecessary nerf. to ask for something like this is pretty serious in my book. you'd better be dayum sure you know what you're talking about if you're gonna ask the devs to rain on someone else's parade so your light shines a little brigher. frankly, i'm not convinced the people complaining the loudest are the best informed in this particular matter.
I feel evidence and consensus never, ever overlap. Evidence is in the fact, not in what people feel about those facts. This is particularly true in light of the fact that the people you are talking about aren't exactly representative of the vast majority of players, having taken PvP to an extreme most people don't want to. Given this game is a product meant to bring about enjoyment, that fact needs to be taken into account also.
--or, perhaps, we've taken pvp to the place it's headed. maybe this group of well-informed pvpers are ahead of the curve on things. maybe they've learned from their experience what the casual pvper will learn in time and they know this is a bad move. perhaps the reason we're all here is not as you suggest. perhaps we're not here stroking our egos as much as we're fighting to protect something we think is pretty cool. you have to admit, it's a possibility.
ultimately you simply don't care about the majority of players and how the game affects them. I do.
--and this is why i'm skeptical of your opinion. because it appears you've made up your mind about me and my motivations. in truth, here more than anywhere else, you obviously have no idea what you're talking about. please believe me when i say i mean this in the nicest possible way...but be careful when and where you speak your mind. sometimes you do nothing more than reveal you have no idea what you're talking about.
I heard to balance the nerf to Hurricane they're changing 02 boost to 03 boost. It's a very large aoe resistance debuff moderate DoT that causes Skin Cancer irl.
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Wait a second! What are you planning with Force Bubble? It repels. That's all it does. Taking away repel means it creates a big bubble that does absolutely nothing.
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Right. That's why it's harder.
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What are you going to do? Add AOE defense to it like Dispersion Field? I doubt it after defense buffs for the set has already been nerfed to a balance you guys have already stated you we're happy with, and besides that will completely change the power to something completely different from its counterpart in PVE. And don't change it to an "oh crap" power that has been suggested, it will only serve to make it more undesirable in a team and the set already has so many powers that help people get out of dangerous situations (repulsion bomb, force bolt, detention field, and even force bubble currently).
Please leave Force Bubble alone, it doesn't prevent anyone from attacking anyway, it doesn't grant any ACC Debuff, it doesn't drop Stalker Stealth or toggles in general, it doesn't do anything but pin unprepared builds to the walls. Who's fault is that? Heck, the only thing it benefits me when I use it in PvP is the shock factor it causes when someone is TPed into it and rushed to a wall, typically giving me a few free seconds to strike. 
Dont sweat it, I cant see FB getting nerfed. Think about, FB without repel = no power. What other use does it have? That's like taking the "confuse" out of Confusion.
Well, he might try putting in a different effect to make up for a possible repel nerf. Perhaps it'll screw up melee accuracy.
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I feel evidence and consensus never, ever overlap. Evidence is in the fact, not in what people feel about those facts.
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Do you know how ridiculous the above statement is? Obviously, if people learn to believe that the facts are true, then the consensus will be based on factual evidence. As an example, people once believed that the world was flat. Then, some people discovered it was round and told other people that they had facts to support that it was round. Now, there is a consensus that the world is round, which it is.
Right now, you appear ignorant, arguing that the world is flat despite the fact that some of us know it to be round. Because your "facts" tell you that the world is flat.
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P.S. TerpMan...you seem to hate me
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I know you're pretty full of yourself and it's hard to believe that I would post in a thread for reasons other than "stalking" you, but believe it or not I've been posting since long before you graced us with your presence. I've seen few posters as ignorant and disrespectful as yourself. I'll give you a tip though, 95% of my posts are in the pvp general forum, so I'm easily avoided (Unless you happen to follow me to another thread and turn that into a flame war also, as you have done in the past)
Put me back on ignore if you don't want to see me making fun of the rubbish that spews from your keyboard in this thread.
Like others, I just think you should have a clue what you're talking about before you tell everyone else that they're wrong.
There's a post from PsyPunk that sums up your "stance" very nicely. The real reason you chose to ignore his post is because he "hit the nail on the head" as far as how you completely ignore all legitimate arguements in favor of completely twisting around the words of others to argue insignificant points about nothing.
You appear to be attempting to hone your skills as a Troll and nothing more.
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/em wonders when the devs are gonna realize that Force Bubble has the same "problem" that convinced em to zap Hurricane.
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The worst parts about getting debuffed by hurricane was the nasty to-hit debuff and its -range. The -tohit was easily countered at the higher levels(FA, AIM, BU, etc). The -range was the only form of mitigation against ranged toons for the Storm summoning set. It made only since that storm should be able to keep melee out when they are so vulnerable to everything else.
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Actually, the only thing I really wanted to change in this mess was the ability for Repel Fields to effectively trap a player against geometry in Base Raids. I'm aware other powers have the same problem. I'll address those individually, though -- the same type of change made to Hurricane can be made, but for the most part, those powers have fewer aspects to them that Hurricane does. That makes getting them right considerably harder.
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From what I understood, these are the no notice Hurricane nerfs: ticks per second cut, PvP repel changed FOR BACKING PEOPLE IN CORNERS ONLY, enhancements are less effective.
Did I miss any? 3 total nerfs.
No notice either...just thrown on...which really bugs me. I just started a storm troller a week before the nerfs came out. Had I have known how bad the Hurricane nerf was gonna be.....I'd have rolled another Stalker.
Point is...can y'all start giving us a heads up when you plan to gut a power like this? It would sure make City of Nerfs a lot less frustrating...
You ever play a Dark Defender? You wanna talk about a powerset going thru the ringer? Or how about Radiation? Both of those sets took multple power hits on many different levels. Hurricane just happened to be next in line. I just hope this balancing act doesnt turn into trying to match your sideburns to the point where alittle is taken off from each side, and eventually you lose the whole sideburn altogether, bc too much was taken off in each sweep in attempt to "balance".
yeah, dark sucks in pvp.
rad suffers on teams, but is pretty good 1v1.
personally i'd rather see the underperforming sets buffed.
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(Hurricane) quickly becomes outstripped in power as soon as powers like Focused Accuracy come into play....Then, it is just basically a -range and that's about it.....the melee component is gone, people kite through it all day long. Hell, Inv/Em tanks just walk right up and kick your [censored] and Spine stalkers and scrappers could care less, they'll just critical you to death from outside the Hurricane's range. All the other scrappers like Katana and Martial Arts, that Hurricane once affected, now kick your [censored] with Focused Accuracy....and the Ice/Eng blasters just hit build-up/AIM drop your toggles with Total Focus and light your [censored] up in two seconds.....
If anything, Hurricane should INCREASE with level, so that it scales somewhat as other archetypes become stronger.
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That is my experience with hurricane in PVP. EN/Inv tank just kited through and hit my every 3 attempt. Spines stalker just nails me no problem
On Justice
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rad suffers on teams, but is pretty good 1v1.
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pretty good? 
ok, FINE!
it's really really good.
ice/rad
strongest build in coh (in the office map)
i said "FINE!"
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if you guys stood all close enough together for a single hurricaner to nail you all in 1 swoop, you deserved to get that foot in your [censored].
let me get this straight, you guys beat the heroes despite being outnumbered and everything is cool, then when finally you start losing, you blame it on abusing powers? brilliant. I guess the EA stalkers that already stun me through hurricane or the focused spines crits that drop me before i can react are abuse too? what about that abuse in the game called blasters and empaths teaming up. give me a freakin break
if you are too retarded to know how to counter multiple stormers, then I'm sorry but you either need to practice or quit the game. I've faced teams with multiple stormers (we're talking 2-4)+ empath both as heroes and villains and we had no problem knocking the snot out of them. All it took was a little bit of tactics and not playing into their strength. like, not being retarded and huddling up with your teammates, that's just asking for it.
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When I mentioned a stormer swooping in it means we were already in the middle of a fight and he decided to drop in. It doesn't mean that he affected every single one of us, but it does mean that those of us affected had no clue why our attacks were not working all of a sudden. The affect of hurricane negated all of the attacks of those in its range and while everyone was trying to figure out where that stormer went/was we got killed by a large group that followed him in.
That stormer most likely would just jump in and jump out, leaving the lingering effect of his -range/acc debuff on us long enough to get us killed, but staying alive because he ended up out of range (or most likely went into invis).
I said we had lost before, which means we didn't complain as soon as we started losing (to paraphrase your kind way of putting it). It was when we kept losing due to the same swoop/drive by tactic (abuse of hurricane comes in here) that we began to complain.
Also as I pointed out, the fly by tactic could cause large spread out groups to be affected because the stormer, or person the stormer was following would make quick z motions over a large area. Since you didn't/don't have to be in the aoe to still be affected (lingering) it meant even a large spread out group was entirely rangeless, especially when there was more than one peson using this tactic.
Read what people say before you begin personally attacking them.
--
Done posting here, since people always attack a valid argument with insluts and have eyes to only read what they want to.
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(Hurricane) quickly becomes outstripped in power as soon as powers like Focused Accuracy come into play....Then, it is just basically a -range and that's about it.....the melee component is gone, people kite through it all day long. Hell, Inv/Em tanks just walk right up and kick your [censored] and Spine stalkers and scrappers could care less, they'll just critical you to death from outside the Hurricane's range. All the other scrappers like Katana and Martial Arts, that Hurricane once affected, now kick your [censored] with Focused Accuracy....and the Ice/Eng blasters just hit build-up/AIM drop your toggles with Total Focus and light your [censored] up in two seconds.....
If anything, Hurricane should INCREASE with level, so that it scales somewhat as other archetypes become stronger.
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That is my experience with hurricane in PVP. EN/Inv tank just kited through and hit my every 3 attempt. Spines stalker just nails me no problem
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Well, that's the thing isn't it? And I've sent PM's to Castle and Statesman informing them of this problem before Hurricane was even looked at. See, the developers think because they know the "coding" and the exact mathematical "numbers" to all the powers, that they know the game better than people who play a certain powerset EVERYDAY.
Anyone who has played a Stormer knows the above....the fact that their nerfing a set like Dark Defenders or Hurricane is ridiculous. Look, I don't know any of these developers from Adam, but it seems they spend a little too much time "DATAMINING" and too little time actually playing the game and interacting with the Community....Anyone who knows the least bit about game play, knows how to deal with Hurricane, TK, or Repulsion bubble. Period. I SERIOUSLY doubt that ANY developer could beat ANY regular pvp'er in the Arena....seriously doubt it. That is a problem, if the people designing the game aren't playing the game....We all know that anyone who regularly PvPs could rattle off a dozen changes that need to be made before you start nerfing Dark Defenders and Hurricane, lol!!
If a n00b stalker is getting hurricaned into a corner, so be it...let him learn tactics like everyone else. Why this is even an issue, who knows. A base raid is TEAM pvp, if someone is being repelled into a corner, let them look to their team for help!! God, is it that hard??!!!
Why don't the devs worry about why the Arena crashes every other match, unless you have Observers turned off?? Someone sent a PM to Castle and he said this was the first time he has heard about this bug!! LOL...wow. Yet, every player who plays in the Arena knows about this and have sent in bug reports and petitions, to no avail.
Put Hurricane back to the way it was and leave it, TK, and repulsion bubble alone. Let a player look to his TEAM to formulate countertactics instead of dummying this game down to the lowest common denominator.
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Well, that's the thing isn't it? And I've sent PM's to Castle and Statesman informing them of this problem before Hurricane was even looked at. See, the developers think because they know the "coding" and the exact mathematical "numbers" to all the powers, that they know the game better than people who play a certain powerset EVERYDAY.
Anyone who has played a Stormer knows the above....the fact that their nerfing a set like Dark Defenders or Hurricane is ridiculous. Look, I don't know any of these developers from Adam, but it seems they spend a little too much time "DATAMINING" and too little time actually playing the game and interacting with the Community....Anyone who knows the least bit about game play, knows how to deal with Hurricane, TK, or Repulsion bubble. Period. I SERIOUSLY doubt that ANY developer could beat ANY regular pvp'er in the Arena....seriously doubt it. That is a problem, if the people designing the game aren't playing the game....We all know that anyone who regularly PvPs could rattle off a dozen changes that need to be made before you start nerfing Dark Defenders and Hurricane, lol!!
If a n00b stalker is getting hurricaned into a corner, so be it...let him learn tactics like everyone else. Why this is even an issue, who knows. A base raid is TEAM pvp, if someone is being repelled into a corner, let them look to their team for help!! God, is it that hard??!!!
Why don't the devs worry about why the Arena crashes every other match, unless you have Observers turned off?? Someone sent a PM to Castle and he said this was the first time he has heard about this bug!! LOL...wow. Yet, every player who plays in the Arena knows about this and have sent in bug reports and petitions, to no avail.
Put Hurricane back to the way it was and leave it, TK, and repulsion bubble alone. Let a player look to his TEAM to formulate countertactics instead of dummying this game down to the lowest common denominator.
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couldnt of said it better myself
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well i dont see the point in suppresion or the way you walk through it now, what's the point of picking a power set with repel resist now, well after they nerf TK and force bubble
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Probably just handy to have. But Suppression would remove the ability to keep people pinned without nerfing the rest of Hurricane. If the Range and Acc debuffs were still applied on the old tic timer, I really wouldn't care as much... but since they're linked, it seems to me that Hurricane gets a royal shafting.
Sgt Liberty - 50 Martial Arts / Super Reflexes
Verdigris Eagle - 50 Archery / Energy Manipulation
Stormeye - 50 Storm Summoning / Electric Blast
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well i dont see the point in suppresion or the way you walk through it now, what's the point of picking a power set with repel resist now, well after they nerf TK and force bubble
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Probably just handy to have. But Suppression would remove the ability to keep people pinned without nerfing the rest of Hurricane. If the Range and Acc debuffs were still applied on the old tic timer, I really wouldn't care as much... but since they're linked, it seems to me that Hurricane gets a royal shafting.
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yeah this "fix" is something of a disaster.
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well i dont see the point in suppresion or the way you walk through it now, what's the point of picking a power set with repel resist now, well after they nerf TK and force bubble
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Probably just handy to have. But Suppression would remove the ability to keep people pinned without nerfing the rest of Hurricane. If the Range and Acc debuffs were still applied on the old tic timer, I really wouldn't care as much... but since they're linked, it seems to me that Hurricane gets a royal shafting.
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yeah this "fix" is something of a disaster.
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I also don't really see why fixing Force Bubble (?) is harder. It's got a hell of a lot bigger radius than Hurricane did, so even with the same tic timer it'll still be better.
Sgt Liberty - 50 Martial Arts / Super Reflexes
Verdigris Eagle - 50 Archery / Energy Manipulation
Stormeye - 50 Storm Summoning / Electric Blast
well i dont see the point in suppresion or the way you walk through it now, what's the point of picking a power set with repel resist now, well after they nerf TK and force bubble