1. storm is pretty much a close range set. why do you think stormies pinned people against things. why are all of storms debuff immobile besides snowstorm which is just a slow toggle which is easily negated for movement by jumping.
2. he's trying to state that too many people are calling for nerfs in this game cause they dont want to try and figure out how to beat sets, they just wanna complain till devs make them easy to kill. storm is not toto hard if you actually use your head, and if you have a good team storm is easy to take out, its a big target.
Malrat,
Do you not find it at all odd that a self admitted EM/Regen Stalker - clearly the PvP easy button FoTY- is arguing for nerfs to other Ats and combos? Something about someone sporting this combination supporting an alteration that makes a MUCH weaker powerset rather succeptible to his quick kills just strikes me as a bit asinine.
Funny stuff that you just can't make up. 
- Lightning storm is immobile, and I don't know where you ever got the idea of the cloud following it's master. Coming from someone who has an earth/storm? Yes I've said storm powers are close range powers. I have 2 stormers I leveled to 50 and been pvping with them since i4. You claim to have a stormer and don't even know how tornado and Lightning storm works. You can say you're right about your assumption of the storm mechanics, but I feel you are just in denial. If you think stormers are effective from long range, and really believe that, then go take your earth/storm and trade with a blaster or even another controller without closing the distance on them and see how well you do.
- Yes, toggle debuff being different from range debuff. totally different. If you gave me a choice between snow storm or infrigidate, I'd pick infrigidate in a heartheat, because range debuff is better than toggle anyday, especially in arena competition against you know, good players. Freezing rain is more of a ground patch than anything, and technically isn't called range debuff for a reason. You're not going to catch any non-noob with it.
- i highly doubt you wouldn't say anything if the devs gutted integration to make it only work 1/4 of the time. Also let's talk about hide working 1/4 of the time. If people could see you, you still get a critical as long as your status is "hidden". So technically people having the perception to spot you is not nearly as bad as hide just not working or not having it.
- to deny any set doesn't have any must have powers, then you are in denial once again. There are sets out there that i guarantee if they are modeled for pvp, they will have all very similar picks. Sure, no one's forcing anyone to pick certain powers, but there are some more essential than the next. For example, total focus/ET/AS will be considered must powers, while energy punch, stun, barrage would probably not be. If you think a regen would be fine without integration, then why pick it? And the blaster example was a bad one. Sure they don't have defenses, but they are offensively better than any AT in the game, including stalkers. The tradeoff is no defense. If you're beating anyone in duels without hide, whoever you're playing is garbage. I could say also that I've beaten even good scrappers and tankers without using hurricane, however this game is balanced for team. When I 1v1 against someone without repel resistance i turn hurricane off to give them a chance. If i were to ever go in a larger team battle and not have cane on, that would just be insane. As there would be multiple builds on the other side who would be able to set up their melee friends or even kill me outright.
- You can say the same for yourself and your arguments. The safe zone thing i threw out was just an example, in the same paragraph i talked about numerous counters to it, of course you went and disregarded the latter and talked about a melee safe zone as if it was actually that. How about before you even tell people how a certain set works, get yours at least to bloody bay level? lol. Seriously, you're trying to tell one of the most experienced PVP stormers, if not the most experienced, how his set works? please man. I feel I've been generous actually sharing my wisdom with you, you should be thankful
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an intellectual stance
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HAHAHHAHAHAH. That's what this em/regen stalker thinks he's doing? Taking an "intellectual" stance. Hilarious.
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I'm not acting like that
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I'm not acting like that
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Stop talking about my EM Stalker. There is nobody standing behind the curtain. Please focus your attention on the big screen where you will clearly see that Hurricane is overpowered.
On a serious note, pulling numbers out of my Magic Hat #9 I'm going to guess that for every 1 stalker that gets "pinned to a wall" by a hurricane user, there are 10 hurricane users who get killed by stalkers.
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Silly example, but remember this is a business. Do they want to cater to a group of 30 big-time PVPers or the 100's of 10-15 year olds that give up easily?
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Well whichever they pick, I can't say it's likely they're going to cater to individuals who start throwing out insults and tantrums when make changes to the game. You've made insulting little nits in quite a few threads like this, blatantly assuming anyone who feels differently than you:
-Must be a child.
-Must be unskilled.
-Must have never succeeded.
-Cares nothing about game balance.
And those assumptions aren't founded. Ever think that maybe you're just WRONG about what's reasonably balanced? Ever think people can take an intellectual stance opposite to yours without being whiny children? I know it may be hard for you to see, but what you find acceptable isn't the universal and sole balancing feature in this game, particularly when what you find acceptable and reasonable is coming from the position of:
Krole, Level 50 Ill/Storm
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mal, i posted a few pages back about 15 ways to overcome a storm guy and his mighty hurricane.
it's my feeling that, unless a player has explored these options in team pvp, he or she should refrain from calling for a nerf.
the fact of the matter is that there is something of a consensu among informed people who routinely pvp that hurricane was not overpowered because of the number of available counters.
i saw hurricane and force bubble as making people have more diverse toons for PvP seeing how most FoTM toons are mostly melee and the repel powers made it actually viable ot have sets like claws actually PvP. now claws biggest advantage over some of the other sets is that it had ranged attacks that could hit, now it's back to being sub-sub-par.
brought in more diversity for stlakers too with about 95% being EM/Regen, hurricane and force bubble add in the need for some to make spines or claws if they want a set with no repel resist
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- Lightning storm is immobile, and I don't know where you ever got the idea of the cloud following it's master.
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I don't know honestly, sorry for the mistake.
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Yes I've said storm powers are close range powers.
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And most of them aren't. There's nothing more to discuss about that, as I said. You could have 8 Storm Summoners, but that still doesn't stop Snowstorm from being cast on me from range, for example.
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Yes, toggle debuff being different from range debuff.
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True, but that doesn't change the fact that both can be activated at range. Thus, the difference is totally irrelevent.
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If you gave me a choice between snow storm or infrigidate, I'd pick infrigidate in a heartheat, because range debuff is better than toggle anyday
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I don't disagree, but they're still both ranged. You can just escape from the toggle by EXCEEDING it's range. That doesn't make it NOT ranged, it just means the range isn't totally unlimited. No amount of rubbish is going to change that simple fact; you can say all you want one is better than another, I don't disagree, but neither is a "close ranged power," no matter how much worse they are than OTHER ranged powers.
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Freezing rain is more of a ground patch than anything...
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Yes, a ground patch that you can cast at range. You can keep trying to reclassify these powers all you want, I don't care about your classifications, because they're irrelevent. Snowstorm is a toggle, Freezing Rain is a ground patch, both are usable at range, and thus aren't close ranged powers. It's simple, it's clear, and it's not up for argument.
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i highly doubt you wouldn't say anything if the devs gutted integration to make it only work 1/4 of the time.
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Of course I'd say something. Specifically, I'd want to know why they did it; what was their goal? Why not other sets too, assuming ONLY mine got changed? That doesn't change the fact that I could still be successful in PvP without it.
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Also let's talk about hide working 1/4 of the time. If people could see you, you still get a critical as long as your status is "hidden".
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If people can see me, I become target number one far more often than you'd think. It's pretty often that as I maneuver in for a kill someone attacks me, and there goes hide's critical. So I've got half the power that doesn't work AT ALL against competent opposition (the important part, mind you, because that's the part that'd let me get off an Assassin Strike without being interrupted - going unseen), and the other, less important half works dependent on how slothful they are or if I jump them when they're on someone else.
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So technically people having the perception to spot you is not nearly as bad as hide just not working or not having it.
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And Hurricane working like it does now is not nearly as bad as it just not working or not having it. I still get gusted by it, I still get debuffed by it, it just takes a bit more coordination from the Stormer. So they're more similar than you'd like to believe, though you'd never admit it, because you're not academically honest. Which is fine.
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to deny any set doesn't have any must have powers, then you are in denial once again.
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By definition, someone who denies something is in denial, you master of language you.
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There are sets out there that i guarantee if they are modeled for pvp, they will have all very similar picks.
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Not out of necessity, but out of efficiency. A power can be BETTER without being NECESSARY. Are you really SO immersed in the "elite PvP" mindset that having the absolute, invariably best setup is a necessity to you? I can see why, then, you're as upset you are over this game.
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The safe zone thing i threw out was just an example...
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A very accurate example. In fact, I'd go as far as to call it a "description." It's getting a bit boring going over that again and again, isn't it?
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one of the most experienced PVP stormers
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Pro tip: you can cast Snowstorm on things at range. 
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I feel I've been generous actually sharing my wisdom with you, you should be thankful
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I completely agree with your wisdom: Hurricane was a melee safe zone. I'm also thankful for you teaching me how Lightning Storm is an immobile ranged-attacker rather than a mobile ranged-attacker. The rest left me feeling a bit embarassed for you; I can only assume your ego forces you to claim things you don't really believe. Which is fine.
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Do you not find it at all odd that a self admitted EM/Regen Stalker - clearly the PvP easy button FoTY- is arguing for nerfs to other Ats and combos?
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I argue for nerfs to myself too. Because I argue from a position of game balance rather than "benefitting myself" (such as certain other Stormers on this thread, though I think Stormbringer was fairly academically honest and a pleasure to discuss with), I'm totally comfortable speaking about what I feel would be wise to change about the game.
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Something about someone sporting this combination supporting an alteration that makes a MUCH weaker powerset rather succeptible to his quick kills just strikes me as a bit asinine.
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Good thing I also recognized at least once in this thread that Hurricane's weakning left Storm Summoning too vulnerable and spoke in favor of other buffs to help make them more survivable in a more reasonable way then, isn't it? But you ignored that, because it wouldn't mesh well with your insult.
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although some of castle's comments lead me to believe any and all sustained repel powers are next on the chopping block.
i sincerely hope this doens't happen. to remove repel would be bad for the game.
there has to be a better way to deal with the potential for abuse.
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You know what's really funny? The game's best PvPers are organizing a a tournament on Test. Currently, the only restriction that I'm aware of is that a team can have a max of either one FFer or sonic. Why? The single target phases. The top tier PvPers know how to work around repel. What they can't work around is the phases; they're high accuracy and nothing in the game resists them. With some straightforward slotting, they almost never miss and come back just fast enough to fire off a second time just as the first phase is wearing off. A couple bubblers can make a 4 on 4 match a 4 on 2 indefinitely.
I really don't get why repels have to be changed.
toggle debuff vs ranged debuff is a big difference. the ranged click stays on you, to lose snowstorm you just need to run a few feet. that is a big difference in PvP
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1. storm is pretty much a close range set. why do you think stormies pinned people against things.
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Because Hurricane could easily pin things so your buddies could kill them while leaving them totally unable to fight back. If by "Storm is a close ranged set" you mean "Hurricane is a closer ranged power," then yes, I agree. A Stormer doesn't have to pin you in the corner to use Snowstorm on you though; in fact, after you're pinned, Snowstorm on you would mostly be wasted endurance anyway. Same goes for the majority of the rest of the set's powers; Stormers pinned because pinning people is effective, not because they needed to for the rest of the set.
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why are all of storms debuff immobile besides snowstorm which is just a slow toggle which is easily negated for movement by jumping.
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Unless your team sucks, after you've pinned someone you don't NEED to debuff them, because your Blappers and/or Scrappers will kill them in moments. Unless your team is really bad at team work I guess.
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he's trying to state that too many people are calling for nerfs in this game cause they dont want to try and figure out how to beat sets
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Maybe some are, I don't care about that, because I'm not one of them, and it's not a very interesting topic of discussion.
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storm is not toto hard if you actually use your head, and if you have a good team storm is easy to take out, its a big target.
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If you have a good team anything is easy to take out other than another good team. I've never asserted Hurricane was a problem in competent team PvP, but the majority of the game's PvP isn't competent team PvP. Stop saying [censored] you to a huge portion of the player base just because they want to PvP in a casual way and still have fun.
That's just wonderful to hear Castle... As if Mind Dominators and Forcefield Defenders didn't have enough working against them already. None of these repel effects are used by most player to "pin" anyone, they're used to keep the goddamned Melee AT's from 1-shotting you or just jousting right through you with a Stun, and then two shotting you while you stammer around helpless.
Here's an idea... since everyone (especially the Melees) gets "25% +DEF" for free in PvP, then how about giving all the Squishies automatic Mag-3 Stun/Hold protection in PvP too so we can get rid of the need for any of these "I win" buttons.
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the fact of the matter is that there is something of a consensu among informed people who routinely pvp that hurricane was not overpowered because of the number of available counters.
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Independent of whether or not that group IS correct, consensus doesn't equate with correctness. Historically groups have come to form a consensus incorrectly quite often.
I've seen arguments from this group, and I haven't found myself moved by them so far. The fact that there's a consensus within that group doesn't add persuasive force to it. It's clear you and that group disagree with me, and I'm fine with that, but saying, "We're right because we agree," isn't persuasive, particularly since I can think of psychological reasons why such conclusions would be reached.
well based on your arguements you basing everything on people who dont base their builds on planning being pinned, by not having TP self, or phase or repel resist. same arguement could be made for any attack power, my blaster has no heal so when people hit me i cant get my health back unless i grab aid self which is a possibility. if you dont like being pinned in corners then get a power to stop it. not everyoen has repel resist, not everyoen has mez resit, not everyone has resistance to damage, not everyone has a heal. its how the game is played. people just tried to point out hurricane more cause they never stopped and to think about how to counteract it. 99% of people who PvP dont even know that BF's can get you out of being pinned. all these nerfs cries are made though ignorance of tactics in PvP.
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toggle debuff vs ranged debuff is a big difference.
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True, but the difference has nothing to do with the fact that you can activate both at range. One could disintegrate you instantly, the other could make your screen turn slightly purple, they'd be hugely different, but they're still both ranged effects, and no amount of argument changes that. I can click Snowstorm and inflict it on you at range. I can click freezing rain, move the aiming reticule away from myself, and cast it on an area at range. They're ranged effects. That's what a ranged effect IS; the fact that they differ in OTHER ways is irrelevent.
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well based on your arguements you basing everything on people who dont base their builds on planning being pinned, by not having TP self, or phase or repel resist.
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I'm basing everything on a combination of the average PvPer, and a comparrison between Hurricane and other comparable powers.
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same arguement could be made for any attack power, my blaster has no heal so when people hit me i cant get my health back unless i grab aid self which is a possibility.
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Green inspirations? 50 Influence a piece? Can't stop at just one?
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if you dont like being pinned in corners then get a power to stop it.
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I did. Fortunately PvP balance doesn't begin and end at me. Hell, I've got a Mind Dominator (in fact he's my main: Mal'rathad is my primary character, Mind Dominator), if Telekinesis can't pin people he's going to be taking a serious hit too. I'm still okay with this line of changes.
But gasp, that means I'm okay with a change that hurts one of my characters! It's almost as if I'm interested in game balance for overall PvP and the average player, rather than what lengths somewhat obsessive players like myself or even TRULY obsessive players like "the most experienced Stormer ever," are willing or able to go to. I know that's hard to hear, but I'm sure I'll keep getting insulted anyway because I dared to go against the Consensus.
its close range combat cause you have to pick one spot to do it, you can add range to snowstorm and its not really that big of a range on it. anything you have to setup with knowledge of where your fight is gonna be is based as close range. if you're a good stormer and you want to kill someone you need to make the battlefield for yourself. you dont sit back and hit people across the map, you set up a little spot where you can plant your debuffs cause they are all immobile. snowstorm and other toggle debuffs are meant for close combat, that's why they go away when people leave the range. pretty much the only set that isnt close combat in the whole game is MM's
green insperations will give me health back while BF's will give you resist to repel. there's your balance
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its close range combat cause you have to pick one spot to do it...
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That's not what close ranged means!
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you can add range to snowstorm and its not really that big of a range on it.
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It was enough for my character to pull at range with it, which is more than I can say of ACTUAL close ranged powers, such as those my Stalker has.
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you dont sit back and hit people across the map
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True, but because of Hurricane, not because of range limitations on other powers. Whether a power is short or long ranged is about it's LIMITATIONS, not what YOU as an individual choose to do with it. If Hurricane didn't exist, you wouldn't be running up next to me to drop a Freezing Rain or Snowstorm on me, you'd do it from as far away as reasonably possible, which is a considerable distance.
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green insperations will give me health back while BF's will give you resist to repel. there's your balance
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If I absolutely HAD to respond to SOMETHING in the post you said this in response to, I'd probably have picked the same single line, joke though it was. Not much else you could reasonably say to the rest, in light of it's totally reasonable, fair tone and content. 
cause without the repel and knockdown any person with a bit of intelligence would move out of freezing rain.... which means you have to bring the fight to them which makes you a close combat toon.
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cause without the repel and knockdown any person with a bit of intelligence would move out of freezing rain....
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If you've got someone locked in place, you don't need the debuff. It's almost like a Catch 22! Except, you know, the debuff lingers, so it's not. Unless what you're after is Freezing Rain's less than incredible damage output; I guess the stream of 1s could give me a seizure or something.
As an aside, didn't I all ready say the set needed other buffs? If you think Freezing Rain is too crappy to use without being able to permanently pin people in it for some reason, maybe it should be improved. I'd have no problem with that, hell make it follow people around for all I care, rainstorms move.
It's still a ranged power, though, even if you want to argue it's a BAD ranged power. I've had stormers drop them on me from at range, even if you don't use it that way.
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[but I'm sure I'll keep getting insulted anyway because I dared to go against the Consensus.
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Or maybe because all of us MORE experienced PVPers are right?
You pointed out my illusion/storm (which just so happened to be my first character 3 issues before Arena came out) earlier on. See, that doesn't bother me one bit, like you were trying to do, as all that does is make me more of an expert on this whole topic.
However, to me it seems like you are more of a newcomer to not only this game, but the hero sets all together. How about I let you use my stormer one time in an arena match on test and see how many times you get obliterated? Before the nerf it was almost as bad to be honest, so bad that I stopped using him as the 'good' pvpers would blow right through Hurricane with no problem.
It started to become the same way on Victory server as well. All the EM and Spines scrappers were starting to figure out ways around it, as well as some smarter MA and Ninja stalkers. See, that's my whole point, sooner or later (if the dev's just ignored the constant whining) people would HAVE to learn how to get around powers like hurricane.
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Seriously, you're trying to tell one of the most experienced PVP stormers, if not the most experienced, how his set works? please man. I feel I've been generous actually sharing my wisdom with you, you should be thankful
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Most experienced!?! Well you got some dils son...but I used to have some too when I played my stormer a lot more.
On a serious note - couldn't agree more with your arguments. Been following the thread since I posted the various ways each AT had access to beating hurricane, and I'd still be posting but I don't have the patience for these forum battles. So keep it up, someone has to voice this unneeded nerf!
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Silly example, but remember this is a business. Do they want to cater to a group of 30 big-time PVPers or the 100's of 10-15 year olds that give up easily?
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Well whichever they pick, I can't say it's likely they're going to cater to individuals who start throwing out insults and tantrums when make changes to the game. You've made insulting little nits in quite a few threads like this, blatantly assuming anyone who feels differently than you:
-Must be a child.
-Must be unskilled.
-Must have never succeeded.
-Cares nothing about game balance.
And those assumptions aren't founded. Ever think that maybe you're just WRONG about what's reasonably balanced? Ever think people can take an intellectual stance opposite to yours without being whiny children? I know it may be hard for you to see, but what you find acceptable isn't the universal and sole balancing feature in this game, particularly when what you find acceptable and reasonable is coming from the position of:
Krole, Level 50 Ill/Storm