Bodyguard


5th_Player

 

Posted

You can keep this change, just give me back my old force field, at least it's useful.

Devs yet again proving they don't play this game

~P~


 

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Its entirely situational, and useless in PvP.

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I very much disagree with this statement.

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1. Pets still have serious problems keeping up with Masterminds in PvP. (I doubt bodyguard will work if your pets are still trailing behind you in the zone)

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This is true, however it depends on the situation. Your pets won't help you if you're ganked while traveling to a door (who even summons their pets if they're just going to a door though?), but if you take a slower pace through the PvP zone (like if you are hunting heroes), then they'll work fine. It does lend itself to an interesting conundrum: Normally when attacked by surprise, players instantly activate their travel powers and escape. In the MMs case it might actually make sense to stay around and attempt to tough it out, especially if it's a stalker that just ASed you. Stalkers are pretty wimpy if the AS failed to kill their target.

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2. Makes pet loss MORE likely. Higher survival rate at an even higher loss of offensive capability combined with long down times does not equal an improvement in PvP.

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Getting one-shot also results in pet loss. Sure your pets might be attacked now, but that's only because they're actually an issue in PvP, unlike before where they were just something you ignored while going straight for the MM.

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3. Can be exploited by certain types of Masterminds in PvE and to a lesser extent PvP.

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Not allowing the Stalker or Blaster to one-shot the MM is an exploit? This does make the MM himself a bit more "tanky", but I'm not sure I'd call that an exploit.

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4. Does nothing to solve the melee problems with needing to use Go to + Attack my target inorder to effectively fight.

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Getting a flat tire fixed does nothing to help the paint job on my car either. This is a solution to a completely different problem (namely, getting one-shot in PvP and getting killed by ambushes that ignore your pets).


 

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I think the point was that it's much easier now to take down all the Henchman, leaving the MM WITHOUT Bodyguard to take the full damage from the next attack.

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Anyone who could do that could have one or two shotted the MM without the bodyguard feature anyway.

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So the net result of this change is...?

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They've raised the bar a LOT on what it takes to one-shot a MM. In fact without bodyguard it's not that hard for a Stalker or a Blaster to one or two shot a MM. With Bodyguard, it shouldn't be possible for any player to one-shot a MM, even if they're at the damage cap and get a critical.

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Ok, so now my MM will be two shot. Whoopdy doo.


Shard Warrior - 50 MA/Regen/BM Scrapper

Founding Member and Leader : Shadow-Force
Co-Leader: Council of Heroes
"Whatever evils come this way... we will be there to stop them."

 

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I think the point was that it's much easier now to take down all the Henchman, leaving the MM WITHOUT Bodyguard to take the full damage from the next attack.

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Anyone who could do that could have one or two shotted the MM without the bodyguard feature anyway.

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So the net result of this change is...?

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They've raised the bar a LOT on what it takes to one-shot a MM. In fact without bodyguard it's not that hard for a Stalker or a Blaster to one or two shot a MM. With Bodyguard, it shouldn't be possible for any player to one-shot a MM, even if they're at the damage cap and get a critical.

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Ok, so now my MM will be two shot. Whoopdy doo.

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"Two shots instead of one? You've just doubled my life expectancy! I HATE YOU!"


 

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Setting to Bodyguard
You can set any Mastermind Henchman to Bodyguard by selecting the Defensive Stance and the Follow Order. Your Henchmen must be within Supremacy range for this function to work.

Bodyguard Mode
When set to Bodyguard mode, the Mastermind and his Henchmen share damage from any attack that the Mastermind takes damage from. Each Henchman takes one “Share” of the damage, and the Mastermind himself takes 2 “Shares”. This is in addition to any damage that the Henchmen themselves might incur from Area attacks.

Example: If a Mastermind has 3 Henchmen set to Def/Fol, and he gets hit with a 100 point attack, each Henchman will take 20 points of damage, and he himself will take 40 points. (total of 100 points of damage).

Example 2: If a Mastermind has 3 Henchmen set to Def/Fol, and he gets hit with an Area Effect attack for 10 points of damage, then each Henchman will take 2 points of damage, and he himself will take 4 points. Henchmen that were also in the Area of Effect will take an additional 10 points each.

What Does This Mean?
Bodyguard will work as long as a Henchman is in Defensive Follow. This means that they will follow you around and attack back when you or they are attacked. Issuing an order of “Attack my target” will take them out of bodyguard mode, as will issuing any other stance or order. You can set as many of your Henchmen to bodyguard that you want. As long as the Henchman is in Defensive Follow and within Supremacy range, he is in Bodyguard mode. Being stunned will not turn off bodyguard mode.

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I like this. It's adds a benifit to the mastermind without taking anything away. It also encourages players using masterminds to be more active to get the most benifit from this ability. Previously a lot of masterminds have simply relied on their henchmen and their AI to do all the work for them. This encourages players to actually be there and interact with their henchmen.

I get tired of those people who keep asking for more, more, more. They want their job to be easy so they can sit back and relax. If I wanted to relax I'd read a good book or watch a good movie. If I want something to stimulate my mind in a more active fashion and challenge me then I'll play a game. This is a game. Not a superhero simulation where you can be whatever you want, without regards to challenge or balance. Games are all about challenge and balance.

So not only is this a good addition, it also encourages a more active playstyle. I like that. It encourages more thinking and strategy on the part of the player. While the lazy might gain some benifit from it, they won't see near as much as the active player.

As for those complaining about tanks? I think tanks are doing fine, outside of maybe a few small tweks here and there. I've found that tanks just need to be a little more active and a little more thoughtful in their tactics to see them as useful as they were previous.

Dominators I don't believe are anywhere near as underpowered as people claim. I think they just require a little more thinking on the part of the player. They require you to be on your toes a little more often.

I'm tired of players asking for changes to powers and archetypes to cover for their shortcommings. I've found many stategies to use to make the best use of many powers that some people are often decrying as underpowered or useless. Not every power has an obvious use. Sure, a lot of these powers may be entirely situational, but I find that when used correctly they can produce some impressive results. I guess the problem is there are many players who want everything to be made obvious and everything to be made easy. Powers that are predictable and take no thought to put to good use.

Anyway, I'm hoping that the developers introduce more changes to the game that can benifit any player but will even more so benifit the actively thinking players.


 

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"Two shots instead of one? You've just doubled my life expectancy! I HATE YOU!"

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Just doing some quick tests on this with our VG... based on the total damage, BU + AS + ET from an EM stalker will wipe out Henchman and the MM in 2 shots with bodyguard. That attack chain is so short, you're not going to have time for anything.

We'll be looking at AoE damage next.


 

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BU + AS + ET from an EM stalker will wipe out Henchman and the MM in 2 shots with bodyguard.

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I'm not sure I completely understand your point... you would have been dead anyway.


Phantom Rose: Ill / Kin / Psi
Soleau: Ice / Icy / Ice / Core: Ice / Fire / Pyre / Wind / Eclipse / Flare / Corona
---------------
Solo Space

 

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yeah, we're saying this buff could've been better


 

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Now let's look at the results. You just to an attack of a magnitude that only an Arch-Villain/Hero can throw. You are hurt pretty bad, but you are still on your feet. You pets are in rough shape but still on their feet.

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Not to pick on you, or to say that I think this is a bad thing (I actually kind of like it), but consider the equally common situation of a blast or breath weapon that would do even half as much as your example, so let's say 1000 points of damage. You come off quite fine, yes, taking only 250 points of that before your (probably non-existent) resistances. However, you did so by shedding 125 points of damage to each minion ... on top of whatever damage they took from the initial AoE. If we're talking about something that can hit them through their shields (and several examples come to mind), that extra 12.5% damage on top of what they were already taking may mean that an AoE attack that would previously have only wiped out the level 1 minions also wipes out the level 2 minions and reduces the level 3 minion to a sliver of health.

You could do a little better if you saw it coming, of course, by switching only the level 1 minions to bodyguard mode. That way you shunt off 60% of that 1000 points to them, taking only 400 points yourself. Presumably they weren't going to survive anyway, so the extra 200 points they took are pure overkill. You, on the other hand, still had to "soak" those 400 points, and given how unlikely it is for a mastermind to have any damage resistance at all, you're hurting pretty bad. (And if you're a soldier, by setting all the level 1 minions to bodyguard, you just sacrificed your medic. So in that case, you might only want to sacrifice the soldier soldiers, so you took 500 points, not 400.)

What was the alternative? To stand around the corner, like we currently do, and send them in on Attack Aggressive mode. Which means that you don't take damage, they take less damage, and the tier 2 and 3 pets are still alive to be healed back up.

I'm still in favor of this because I can imagine some circumstances where it will actually be helpful. (And would be more so if there was any way for a mastermind to resist teleport foe. I still think there should have been some kind of status and teleport resistance power in our patron pools, expletive-deleted it.) But when fighting some of the toughest foes, it's going to tempt masterminds to do stupid things that will make things worse for them rather than better.


 

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I take back my concerns about this change. This is going to really help MMs. I just ran around with my Ninjas on defense and follow mode and did a couple of relentless missions. With this change, it will just get easier.


 

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Did you keep them on Definsive/Follow the whole time or did you ever use Attack My Target or somesuch to change their stance or disposition?


But still I fear and still I dare not laugh at the madman!

One man's "meh" is another man's "zomg". - Leatherneck

Procrastination meter coming soon.

 

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Ocean_born:
In addition to being in Supremacy range, you will need to set the bodyguard pets to both Follow command and Defensive stance. A command is an instruction you want the pet to do, a stance is a general behavior the pet will perform while not actively following a command. They are separate functions that combine to control how the pets perform. In this case, while in Supremacy range, Follow+Defensive=Bodyguard.

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Ah.. that sucks.. haha.
Well you can't have em all right.

Thanks though Sandolphan.


 

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"Two shots instead of one? You've just doubled my life expectancy! I HATE YOU!"

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Just doing some quick tests on this with our VG... based on the total damage, BU + AS + ET from an EM stalker will wipe out Henchman and the MM in 2 shots with bodyguard. That attack chain is so short, you're not going to have time for anything.

We'll be looking at AoE damage next.

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Oof. That's a lot of damage. Since a level 38 (warburg) MM has 698.75 hp, that means the combo does over 2795 damage.

For comparision, that will also two-shot:
1. SR scrappers
2. Ice Tanks running unless they have fully slotted Tough and Dull Pain running (and then it just leaves them with a sliver).
3. Dark Melee scrappers running their resistance toggles
4. Invuln Scrappers unless slotted with Dull Pain and running Unstoppable
5. Regen scrappers
6. Fire Tanks, even if they have Tough and their toggles slotted up, although they can survive if they have both +HP accolades
7. Any squishy
8. Any Brute except possibly Stone and Invuln with Dull Pain and Granite/Unstoppable

In other words a character able to dish out that much damage can basically kill almost anyone he wants. I'm not sure why this makes Bodyguard bad.


 

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Ok, so now my MM will be two shot. Whoopdy doo.

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"Two shots instead of one? You've just doubled my life expectancy! I HATE YOU!"

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The_Foo - Master of Understatement


 

Posted

Bodyguard sounds nice and I will love seeing it as it will be a great buff to the AT. However in my opinion it does not cure the major MM issue for pvp. Summoning pets and upgrading will still take a long time that no other AT has to endure. Being one/two shotted is annoying, but defenders and controller players get over it the same way others do; the ability to run back out and hop into the fray having a good time. If MM pets were to auto spawn, I feel there would have been no need for this buff that half-fixes the issue. Living a tidbit longer means less times to summon, but the MM still faces the same thing entering and rezzing as they were griping about. Naughty stool for two minutes before you can join.


 

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Yes I completely agree with the above poster. Dying sucks and a mastermind is a squishy class that just has to deal with getting 2 shotted by blappers and stalkers like every other squishy class. The real issue is how long it takes for a mastermind to get back on their feet after dying. When I die on my stalker or brute I respawn and turn on my 2-3 toggles and go back to where I was before. When I die on my mastermind I have to spend upwards of 6 minutes before I'm fully combat effective again. not to mention that if I zone I have to do it all over again. Combine this with the fact that I have less than 700 hp maxed out at 40, I can find myself making a bunch of pets, buffing them like crazy and then instantly dying the moment I get back into the fight.

Masterminds aren't powerful enough in pvp or pve to justify this kind of hassle. The tier 2 pet spell should summon all the tier 2 and tier 1 pets and the tier 3 pet spell should summon all the pets. Both upgrade buffs should effect all the minions at once. This change would make MM's more viable in PVP, as my MM does fine in PVP as it is, it ist just a pain to remake everything.

That or minions should zone with the MM and respawn in hospital with the MM if he or she dies in combat. The only time a MM should have to remake and rebuff a pet is if the pet actually physically dies to an enemy. It doesnt make ANY sense that a MM is completely crippled until he or she summons and buffs their minions. As it is now, if I get attacked by a level 20-25 regular enemy in some crappy zone at level 40, I can't defend myself until I make a bunch of minions, or I have to run like a coward. This doesn't make any sense at all.


 

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wait... will defensive mode work now?

For those of us that have melee henchman and have used defensive in the past, this sounds like another excuse to have bouncing minions. I get shot, all my minions run at the enemy who then shoots mm for full damage.

So now the tactic is going to be... Weak long range shot, watch minions run at you, Aim, BU, one shot.

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Mental note: set self to autofollow my Lich (which is constantly self-healing) so as not to get out of bodyguard range by the above tactic.


Speeding Through New DA Repeatables || Spreadsheet o' Enhancements || Zombie Skins: better skins for these forums || Guide to Guides

 

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ever since the dec 23rd patch (when pets started following other mm's for no apparent reason) i can follow my prot bots, have all my bots on autoattack, and go afk

works pretty well


 

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Personally, I think there was a much better way to deal with this Mastermind PvP problem, so I think I'll post it and see what everyone thinks.

What if, instead of dying the second their mastermind bites it, the henchmen continued fighting? What if they doggedly chased the person who killed their leader until either he/she or they themselves are dead?

This would change the dynamic. Suddenly the hero would have to make the tactical decision "Is that attackless Mastermind really my primary target?" I think this would give MMs higher survivability because, most of the time, the enemy would naturally come to the conclusion that the top tier pet is the primary target and the MM himself, along with his lower tier minions, is more the mop-up material instead


 

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The bodyguard concept is a good start, if the pets could reliably travel with the MM. In PvE, this isn't a big deal, but in PvP you are screwed.

TP-ing a tanker doesn't leave his armor behind... it shouldn't do that for MMs either. Perhaps give the 2nd or 3rd tier henchman a tp-jammer or make the henchmen tp/travel along w/ the MM...


 

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ever since the dec 23rd patch (when pets started following other mm's for no apparent reason) i can follow my prot bots, have all my bots on autoattack, and go afk

works pretty well

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No apparent reason?

Mastermind pets set to defensive mode will attack anything that attacks their mastermind or their fellow pets. This game has a quirk, in that any other pets on the team are considered "friends" of your pets. This is why protector bots will bubble other players pets, but not other players.

What you are seeing happen is another masterminds pet takes an attack, and your pets are reacting as if it were one of your pets. Set your pets to passive or agressive, and they will stop running off like that.

This is how I believe it works, based on observing my pets in teams.


 

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yeah, they didnt care about teammates before that damn patch

i liked how the ai worked before that POS patch, pets did exactly what you ordered them to do and nothing else


 

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Did you keep them on Definsive/Follow the whole time or did you ever use Attack My Target or somesuch to change their stance or disposition?

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Good question! There were times when my henchmen stopped attacking because their target was held for a long amount of time, they would actually stop and then come back to me or if I got hit from another target, they would go and attack it. Staying in defensive stance, I would use attack my target if I wanted them to kill something, like say a Spec-Op longbow. Can't allow those buggers to live, but as soon as they started attacking the spec-op I would switch them back to follow, since the long bow was attacking them, they would back off then immediately attack her when she attacked them.

It basicaly turned into a game to get agro. I am doing this now, without the body guard feature which meant when I did grab agro, it hurt. After the body guard feature comes out, I am going to be grabbing agro like crazy.


 

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I am curious to see how much this cripples our damage output. To have any real effect in PvP a MM needs to focus all the pets on hitting one target and Defensive stance certainly will not do this. Right now with PFF active I am generally incapable of killing any heroes aside from an occational Blaster, Controller or Defender. Most of the time these escape of course because the pets are far too slow to follow any travel power.

Without protection from teleport foe (if this change actually makes us effective in PvP) it will just become an even more common place selection for PvPers putting us back to square one.


 

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Setting to Bodyguard
You can set any Mastermind Henchman to Bodyguard by selecting the Defensive Stance and the Follow Order. Your Henchmen must be within Supremacy range for this function to work.


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So, weird question:

I've got the pets out on bodyguard, and one of the various foes does some version of Nova. Does the damage mitigation from Bodyguard apply BEFORE the damage to pets, AFTER the damage to pets, or "undetermined"?

Before you think it sounds like a stupid question, imagine I've several battle damaged pets (with, say one hit point) and I'm low myself. ANY damage would kill them, and I need them as my "meat shield" - so, do they throw themselves on the grenade, or "other"?