"You have talent. I hate you."
By
AlienOverlord,
Posted on: 2006-03-31 14:52 in Multi-Media Fan Creations
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Just look at me! I think I'm doing pretty well in such a short time, I'm just afraid I'm gonna 'plateau' and not get much better. 
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Nawwww! Your art is great!
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It's something that has always irritated the hell out of me, and I have learned to accept it. But at the same time, I really dislike when people say "It's something that anyone can pick up," because it's not. I'll admit that I am jealous of people who can pick up a piece of paper and just draw.
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Okay, well that's a different case entirely and I apologize for painting with such a broad brush and offending you.
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No offense taken. 
It's just something that some people don't realize and a point that I like to haul out every now and again. You folks who can draw, make sure you appreciate it, because despite what some people say, not everyone can do it.
My story arcs: #2370- Noah Reborn, #18672- The Clockwork War, #31490- Easy Money
Sartre once said, "Hell is other people." What does that make an MMO?
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umbridge. That's a big word!!!!!!!
Dang you brits and your big words! 
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LOL
I won't do it again, Rowr.. don't beat me...again... please....
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Or, at the very least, spell it correctly. "Umbrage." 
Getting back to the thread:
And, yes, of COURSE people don't literally mean it. And, yes, I understand what sarcasm is. I grew up in Massachusetts where sarcasm is the unofficial second language. The point I was trying to make is WHY be sarcastic when you're supposed to be complimenting someone on their hard work? It's bad form. Is it that hard to just give the compliment without the backhand?
Anyway, another thing I wanted to know is if other artists were bothered by it, and it doesn't seem that they are. And, by starting this thread, I've pretty much made it a fait accompli that when I finish my pic of my main villain, the thread is just going to be people telling me that they hate me (whether they like the pic or not), so I guess it's run its course. 
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It's bad form? Honestly, I wouldn't notice. It's not even that strong a language. In my life it wouldn't be unusual to hear this kind of conversation:
"Hey man, I just got a 150k a year job where I get some sweet loving from beautiful ladies, oh yea."
"[censored] you, you son of a [censored] . I hope you fall in a fire and die. [censored] . "
"Ha ha, suck it!"
Well, I'd never hear the part about one of my friends getting that kind of job. But that's just friendly conversation.
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Sure, I talk to my FRIENDS like that too. But from strangers it's a little odd. IMO
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Seriously...do you think it's entirely possible for anyone to draw well?
Man...thats a hard mindset for me to get over... I've never been able to put anything reasonable on paper. Even my stick-men suck.
But....you've kinda given me hope....
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I really do think that. But it takes a LOT of work, especially if you only start learning as an adult.
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Just look at me! I think I'm doing pretty well in such a short time, I'm just afraid I'm gonna 'plateau' and not get much better.
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I don't know why you would be worried about such a thing.
It's my opinion that, barring physical limitations, anyone can be taught how to draw... and draw well. I've taught drawing one-on-one in the past with some very pleasing results. It wouldn't come overnight, to be sure, but drawing is often a matter of knowing the 'language' of line and how to apply it.
I know I don't post in here very often, but I thought I would share something that fits the topic - and to just let you guys know I do pop in here a lot to read, watch, and admire all the amazing talent we have in the community.
Here at NCsoft we share an office with Destination Games, the development house working on Tabula Rasa, and I often run into a concept artist who spends a large portion of his time drawing concept art for the game in a common area of our building. People will often walk by and gawk at some of the most amazing pencil drawings they have ever seen and chat with Brad as he casually fleshes them out. The thing I have heard him say over and over again is the same as some other people here have mentioned, "almost anyone can draw decently - if they are willing to work at it."
The problem for most of us is that we honestly don't want it bad enough to do the work needed to achieve it. Other things in life are more important to us than learning how to draw - so we do those things instead of drawing.
But boy, oh boy - are we impressed with those of you who DO draw.
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But boy, oh boy - are we impressed with those of you who DO draw.
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Thanks, Cuppa. It's good to know you guys pop into our little "virtual studio" 
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Just look at me! I think I'm doing pretty well in such a short time, I'm just afraid I'm gonna 'plateau' and not get much better.
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If you want to avoid plateau-ing, DO NOT DO WHAT I DID. I plateaued for a while because I /stopped trying to improve/. I stopped working at it. I stopped challenging myself with different perspectives, different bodies, different subject matter - I've been drawing since I was six years old and I have yet to draw a background because I'm afraid to suck at it before I get good at it.
But you /need/ to suck at it before you get good at it. EVERYBODY sucked before they got good at it.
So, keep challenging yourself. When something gets easy, add something new to it to make it hard again. Given the time and the effort on your part, not just on drawing but on learning how to draw what you want to draw by studying anatomy, architecture, the clothing of ancient China, whatever it is you need to study, you will improve.
(Hi Cuppa!)
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The problem for most of us is that we honestly don't want it bad enough
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but she wants those tattoo's bad enough..
course i got around 10 myself...so i know the feeling
My shtick has been pretty much...
"You have talent. I hate you. I also have cash in hand..."
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If you want to avoid plateau-ing, DO NOT DO WHAT I DID. I plateaued for a while because I /stopped trying to improve/. I stopped working at it. I stopped challenging myself with different perspectives, different bodies, different subject matter - I've been drawing since I was six years old and I have yet to draw a background because I'm afraid to suck at it before I get good at it.
But you /need/ to suck at it before you get good at it. EVERYBODY sucked before they got good at it.
So, keep challenging yourself. When something gets easy, add something new to it to make it hard again. Given the time and the effort on your part, not just on drawing but on learning how to draw what you want to draw by studying anatomy, architecture, the clothing of ancient China, whatever it is you need to study, you will improve.
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Exactamundo!
Sup CuppaJo!
There is skill and there is talent. Anyone can learn a skill and given time, persistence, and motivation become quite accomplished. Talent is more of a God-given attribute. You have it or you don't. You cannot learn a talent.
Masterful works in any field come from the intersection of talent and skill. Michael Jordan had tremendous talent and innate athletic ability. But he also practiced constantly to reach the pinnacle in his field. Pete Rose was not a particularly talented athlete, but he never gave up pushing himself to be a better player.
But if you have a talent and do not push yourself to develop it, you will find less talented but dedicated technicians eventually surpass you.
50s: Inv/SS PB Emp/Dark Grav/FF DM/Regen TA/A Sonic/Elec MA/Regen Fire/Kin Sonic/Rad Ice/Kin Crab Fire/Cold NW Merc/Dark Emp/Sonic Rad/Psy Emp/Ice WP/DB FA/SM
Overlord of Dream Team and Nightmare Squad
- Hand-Eye Coordination
- Muscle Control
- Foresight
- Extensive Imagination
These are things needed to draw WELL. Anyone can learn to draw, sure... but there ARE certain things that people are born with to a much higher degree than others. Given the same amount of time, someone with the inherent ability to draw well will always draw better than the person who couldn't draw well in the first place.
The one thing I've really noticed with people who cannot easily learn to draw well? Shaky hands and lack of refined Hand-Eye coordination.
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Given the same amount of time, someone with the inherent ability to draw well will always draw better than the person who couldn't draw well in the first place.
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"Given the same amount of time"
Part of the point I was trying to make is that people with more talent get better faster. So, yeah, a less talented person needs to work harder. But that doesn't mean they can't ever do it. It just means they have to put in more time. But even the people who have talent have to put in time.
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The one thing I've really noticed with people who cannot easily learn to draw well? Shaky hands and lack of refined Hand-Eye coordination.
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Well, barring a physical condition like the one mentioned by someone else, drawing a lot can go a long ways towards refining one's hand-eye coordination. But that works better if it starts earlier.
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I know I don't post in here very often, but I thought I would share something that fits the topic - and to just let you guys know I do pop in here a lot to read, watch, and admire all the amazing talent we have in the community.
Here at NCsoft we share an office with Destination Games, the development house working on Tabula Rasa, and I often run into a concept artist who spends a large portion of his time drawing concept art for the game in a common area of our building. People will often walk by and gawk at some of the most amazing pencil drawings they have ever seen and chat with Brad as he casually fleshes them out. The thing I have heard him say over and over again is the same as some other people here have mentioned, "almost anyone can draw decently - if they are willing to work at it."
The problem for most of us is that we honestly don't want it bad enough to do the work needed to achieve it. Other things in life are more important to us than learning how to draw - so we do those things instead of drawing.
But boy, oh boy - are we impressed with those of you who DO draw.
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Cuppa gets it. I am pleased. So very pleased.
Not because Cuppa gets it, but just that one more person does. Because it's AMAZING to me that so many people don't. That so many people will throw the fact that it takes work to get good at art away so vehemently. It's not that I don't understand why-- I've studied enough psychology to understand why. It' still, just amazes me.
Annoys the hell out of me, too. I've been drawing since i was old enough to hold a crayon. I'm on my eighth year working with 3D rendered artwork. I've spent the last two years working myself sick(literally four or five times) absorbing everything I can in an art degree program. I haven't been on CoH at all in almost a week because I've spent all that time on commission and personal work and trying to nail down some techniques I've been wanting to learn.
And someone wants to tell me, after all that, that it's TALENT that got me here? They want to deny me the blood sweat and tears that got me here? The only answer I can possibly think of to it is "Yeah, well, CENSORED you, too." I wrote that as CENSORED because I think that what i really wanted to say would have broken the filter for sheer force of venom.
I believe talent has it's place, because i know I have it. Speaking as a talented individual and knowing what it's taken me to get to where I am, however, I feel qualified to state that talent has a place in ability and it's a very small one, comparitively speaking. Period.
Anyway, Rowr, Dart already mentioned this, but I want to underline it and maybe expand on it a bit. When you hit a plateau, you do something else to raise yourself over it. A more apt metaphor might be that when you hit the glass ceiling, you shimmy over sideways and climb around it. You've topped out on drawing? Work on color. Play with learning to animate. Learn some 3D. Buy some watercolor and just slap the paint around on a page(you don't even have to try and do a recognizable painting, though that's also an option, of course). When you've hit a limit on the work, do different work. Change your tools. Jump to writing for a week. Make a collage. Fiddle with print design. Create a website. Read a physics book. Take photos of neat stuff. Do sidewalk chalk. Learn to program. Get ahold of training videos by awesome artists and watch how they work. Whatever. Bottom line, when you feel you're not going "up" anymore, move sideways. Art, to me, is like a pyramid. Whatever you start with, you can only get so high before you need to expand the base to get higher. Moving to another medium, another activity, another... anything, really, will force you to think about things differently. Then you return to the work you started with with more ideas than you had before, and you go up. This is part of the reason art is so much work. To me, it's why it's so much fun. But I like knowing stuff, so having an excuse is awesome.
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- Hand-Eye Coordination
- Muscle Control
- Foresight
- Extensive Imagination
These are things needed to draw WELL. Anyone can learn to draw, sure... but there ARE certain things that people are born with to a much higher degree than others. Given the same amount of time, someone with the inherent ability to draw well will always draw better than the person who couldn't draw well in the first place.
The one thing I've really noticed with people who cannot easily learn to draw well? Shaky hands and lack of refined Hand-Eye coordination.
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I once had an English professor who was BRILLIANT. He really knew his stuff. But he wasn't bright. He wasn't talented. He was merely a hard worker who put his nose to the grindstone. You could really see he was the kind of guy who spent his first half of his life working farms and factories, and dedicated himself to study for the second half of his life with the same work ethic he had learned previously.
There is an idea in the art world, particularly back in the time of the Renessaince, that some people had "Genius." They could do art. Everyone else could only appreciate it.
I don't believe that.
I DO believe that some people are innately gifted in certain fields, and that this gives them an advantage. Tall people have an easier time playing basketball. Period. But that doesn't mean a short person can't compete. A short basketballer with years of training and experience will beat a novice tall-guy every time.
Practice, dedication, hardwork. That's what it takes to become good at something. Being gifted means you can acquire your skills more easily, perhaps, or that you can reach higher levels of skill than most people (with enough dedication... a tall guy who has as much experience as a short guy plays a better game of basketball), but it doesn't mean you're the only one who can learn those things.
Sometimes, it seems society wants us to believe that "everyone is good at something." I think thats bullsh*t. But I do think anyone can be good at anything, provided they're willing to work hard for it, which may not sound different, but is.
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etc...When you hit a plateau, you do something else to raise yourself over it. A more apt metaphor might be that when you hit the glass ceiling, you shimmy over sideways and climb around it. You've topped out on drawing? Work on color. Play with learning to animate. Learn some 3D. Buy some watercolor and just slap the paint around on a page(you don't even have to try and do a recognizable painting, though that's also an option, of course). When you've hit a limit on the work, do different work. Change your tools. Jump to writing for a week. Make a collage. Fiddle with print design. Create a website. Read a physics book. Take photos of neat stuff. Do sidewalk chalk. Learn to program. Get ahold of training videos by awesome artists and watch how they work. Whatever. Bottom line, when you feel you're not going "up" anymore, move sideways. Art, to me, is like a pyramid. Whatever you start with, you can only get so high before you need to expand the base to get higher. Moving to another medium, another activity, another... anything, really, will force you to think about things differently. Then you return to the work you started with with more ideas than you had before, and you go up. This is part of the reason art is so much work. To me, it's why it's so much fun. But I like knowing stuff, so having an excuse is awesome.
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fantastic post Su_Lin
As Commander Mark would say:
"Draw draw draw!!"
And I did.
The only thing I can say is the folks with talent isn't a matter of how well they draw, it's a matter of what they pick as their subject matter. The biggest piece of advice I can give anyone is don't just sit there and draw eyes and faces... that will get you to a point, but you gotta get "The Eye." And "The Eye" needs to look at the weird stuff from a different angle. Draw a pill bottle, a sarcophagus, a monitor, your alarm clock, your roommate's elbow... once you get "The Eye" and see the vast possibilities of subject matter around you.. then go exploring your own imagination. You will find that your imagination is an amalgam of shapes and pieces of what you saw with "The Eye" before.. you just arranged them into a happy place and put it on paper.
You would honestly be amazed how well you can learn to do stuff if you just go to a drawing class and get *forced* to draw something. Its a good idea to try "duplicating" a picture or still life to get started, though. And there are plenty of tutorials online you can hunt around for, or art classes.
I just got to get off my [censored] and start drawing my in game characters and other ideas I have floating around in my head .
The truth is the solution from an equation of lies. ~Maileah Kirel
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It's something that has always irritated the hell out of me, and I have learned to accept it. But at the same time, I really dislike when people say "It's something that anyone can pick up," because it's not. I'll admit that I am jealous of people who can pick up a piece of paper and just draw.
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Okay, well that's a different case entirely and I apologize for painting with such a broad brush and offending you.
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No offense taken. It's just something that some people don't realize and a point that I like to haul out every now and again. You folks who can draw, make sure you appreciate it, because despite what some people say, not everyone can do it.
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Everyone can LEARN to do it, that's the basic point of this post. You may not be able to learn to be the best, but you can learn enough to practice and become quite competent.
Formerly "Back Alley Brawler"
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Here at NCsoft we share an office with Destination Games, the development house working on Tabula Rasa, and I often run into a concept artist who spends a large portion of his time drawing concept art for the game in a common area of our building.
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POST SOME SNAPSHOTS OF TABULA RASA ART!
It will be our little secret! We won't tell anyone, honest! Right people??
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"almost anyone can draw decently - if they are willing to work at it."
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It's been said already, but just like anyone can learn to play a musical instrument, if you don't have the inherent talent your art, whether it is drawing, music or otherwise, will not have any true life or depth.
People need to cope with the fact that they might not have talent in some particular field, that's no reason to get angry at those that do.
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- Hand-Eye Coordination
- Muscle Control
- Foresight
- Extensive Imagination
These are things needed to draw WELL. Anyone can learn to draw, sure... but there ARE certain things that people are born with to a much higher degree than others. Given the same amount of time, someone with the inherent ability to draw well will always draw better than the person who couldn't draw well in the first place.
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I completely disagree. There is no such thing as the inherent ability to 'draw well'. Nobody just picks up a pencil and knows how to draw hands correctly, even the good artists.
Simply put, everyone starts off at crayon drawings. A few kids might be a bit more coherent in what they draw with crayons, but from a practical standpoint nobody starts out ahead. There's no magic gene that lets someone immediately draw the Virtuvian. Someone with "lots of talent" still has to start from scratch and learn the basics of anatomy the hard way; they start at 0 the same as non-artists.
The kids you knew in school who were better at drawing were so because they wanted to draw, and had tons of drawings back at home to show for it. If any talent is involved, it's only in realizing how much you suck at X, and having the drive to improve yourself until you are really good at X.
Arc #41077 - The Men of State
Arc #48845 - Operation: Dirty Snowball
Hey all, I highly recommend that anybody interested in this topic check out this book. I won't confirm the "science", but the techniques and the basic message that "yes, you too can draw, and well" are pretty solidly laid out. Note that being able to draw and being an artist are not the same thing. You may be able to reproduce a picture of something recognizable, or even make something up, but that's only a part of making art.
Anyways, I agree with what cuppa-jo said; pretty much any of us can draw, it's just not necessarily a priority, and drawing is a skill that requires a lot of work.
-Jeff
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Just look at me! I think I'm doing pretty well in such a short time, I'm just afraid I'm gonna 'plateau' and not get much better.
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I used to bowl for a long time, in middle and high schools. I always figured I'd get better, but for years my average never got above 140.
It's still fun, though.